How Bloody Sad is This?
When my five year old daughter came from school this week she said one of her friends in class was crying because she wasn't allowed any Christmas presents and she wasn't allowed any birthday cards on her birthday. As you've probably guessed her parents are Jehovah's Witnesses. How is it possible that parents can be so cold and hard towards their children for the sake of religious doctrine? Have they no comprehension of the sadness and resentment they are manufacturing in their kids?
I don't like it either, but how is it our place to say they're right or wrong. There are Atheists who say "no presents at Christmas" cause they don't believe in God... and Christians who says, "no trick or treating cause it's dark celebration"... and Jews who say "no Christmas tree, we're not not Gentiles." I mean... it's a total bummer, but do they love their child? Do they hug her at night when they tuck her in and help her with her homework? Ppl are different... I didn't even get to the Amish (no internet!)
I've never heard of an atheist refusing to give or receive Christmas presents; that's a new one on me. Christians reject trick or treating out of wilful ignorance and superstitious fear. As for Jews not celebrating Christmas, well they don't purport to be Christians do they, unlike Jehovah's Witness's. Besides which my Islamic colleague was telling me about his two daughters being in the school nativity play; he was more than happy to put aside his different religious views for his kids to be happy.
Jehovah's Witnesses may have their barmy anti-Christmas ideas, but children, their well being and happiness really ought to overrule religious doctrine to the right thinking person.These kids must go to a parochial school, you won't find a nativity in any public school.
Dssapearing head's colleague's children. No wonder you couldn't figure who I was talking about.
Quite possibly. One of the parochial schools that belonged to my Catholic religious community (when I was a nun) had a larger enrollment of non-Catholics, predominantly Muslims. It was largely due to the diversity of the neighborhood, the excellent academic quality of the school, and, believe it or not, the tolerance of the school for all religious belief and practice.
No they go to UK state schools where religion plays a formal part in education by law. Every infant school in the country does nativity plays, it's part of our culture whether the parents are theists or atheists.
But that's not the point. The point is parents putting their religious beliefs before the happiness of their children.The nativity is to be found in many public schools. Think "Bible Belt." The children also since religious carols in their Christmas productions.
It sure sounds like you are tying "well-bring and happiness" to gifts and birthday cards... or peer pressure to do what others do.
I pass no judgement on JW - but I think every parent/family has a right to raise their kids in the ways they think are right.
wait for it.... of course that does not include all those bad examples you folks will throw out now; abuse, beastiality, etc. etc.
Just sounds like you think your idea of well-being and happiness is the only right one.
GA
Never heard that one before. Gift giving has more to do with St. Nicolas than God.
Presents at Christmas has more to do with the great god consumerism than anything else.
Isn't Christmas a religious doctrine then?
I believe the holy roman church in the first century AD changed the celebration to a time and date around what it is now so that they could join in the celebrations of other gods within the roman calendar.
And didn't Christ say don't celebrate my birth celebrate my death because this will set you free.
Christmas has been blown out of all proportion since the birth of consumerism in the 19th century, even to the point where a fat imaginary red suited man sneaks into you children's rooms at night to give them a present. Bit creepy if you ask me.
The legend of Santa Claus grew from the 4th century figure Nikolaos of Myra a bishop who gave gifts to the poor, what a brilliant marketing idea those 19th century capitalists had. A sort of " you don't love your child if you don't spend $2000 on presents for them at Christmas.
There are quite a few religions that don't celebrate Christmas and there are many people who do but haven't got an idea as to why.
It was in the Fourth Century...And was first called the Feast of the Nativity. And they took the last day of the Roman celebration of Saturnalia and labeled it Christ's birthday in hopes of bringing the Pagans around to Christian thinking. Seems it worked fairly well...
So Christmas is based in the Saturnalia festival...
Just some added tidbits...
Can't agree with you here - because Xmas was set to the date of Saturnalia doesn't mean it is based on that celebration. Because it was designed and constructed to convert pagans doesn't mean it came from Saturnalia. Xmas was created by Christians for the stated purpose of celebrating Christs birth and that doesn't mean it is rooted in Saturnalia. Not even if the real reason was to convince pagans to join the church.
Of course, it has changed so radically over the thousands of years that it is unrecognizable from what it's origins were. Santa, Rudolph, Frosty, gifts, Xmas trees and lights - some were of pagan origin, some Christian and some purely secular to promote business (Santa and rudolph, for instance). The end result is that Christmas is whatever people choose to make it today.Maybe I should clarify...
Based in...As in dates of festival used, and parts of the festival included to assist in converting pagans. "The feast of nativity" (Birth of Christ) and the feasting of the festival. Private gift giving. and instead of celebrating the re-birth of the sun...it is just celebrating the birth of the son...Very early dates for Xmas vary widely. Jan. 6 was a common early date for the celebration; even as the first recorded celebration on Dec. 25 (in 354 AD) was held Jan. 6 was already a common date in the eastern churches. It wasn't until 200 years later that the church commissioned the monk Dionysius Exiguus to formally set the date as Dec. 25.
Part of the reason for the date was that Sextus Africanus, Christian historian of the 3 century, calculated that Jesus died on Mar. 25. Knowing that all prophets died on either the anniversary date of their birth or conception, he concluded that Dec. 25 (9 months later) was the date of Jesus' birth. It did seem to take a while for this convoluted reasoning to be accepted, however.
Nearly every celebration ever designed has included a feast - that doesn't make it pagan in origin. People like to eat, and in ancient times when so many were either constantly hungry or starved it meant even more.
Private gift giving was not a part of the early Christian celebration; that took hundreds of years to come about.
A play on the modern English words sun and son (and spelling of same) certainly have zero to do with the reasons for the holiday. Both sound and spelling have changed radically since Christmas originated.True with the actual dates being slightly varied...
And as far as the sun/son go...The Sun was worshipped as a God (rebirth of the light) the same as the son (light of the world) being a god as well...Doubt that anyone then connect the son with being the light of the world. Sounds far too modern for that. And if it was, it is merely metaphorical, not real, and would not be connected in that manner with the sun.
Especially considering in Latin, the prominent language everywhere from 200 BC to 500 AD and still used until around 1700 AD, the words for sun (sol) and son (filius) are nothing alike.
It has to do with the worship of God (of light) (re-birth/birth)...Not the words sun/son...The Sun was a god and the son was a god...
The Book of John Chapter one...would disagree...and the latest that would have been written would have been the mid second century...
Odd that you believe in a text written over a century after the fact, yet would likely completely dismiss all the Gnostic texts that were written immediately afterwards just because some Catholic bureaucrats in the 4th century deemed them heretical or unpopular and excluded them from the Bible.
And just because I used an example that supports the statement the Christ was believed to be the light of the world..I am believing one texts over another? I suppose that you didn't read my hub on Jesus based from gnostic texts..
Personally...I don't believe any of the texts with the exceptions that they are stories written a long time ago...
"know your audience"
And does that book intimate that Jesus provides photons all over the world? Or enlightens the population in spiritual matters?
There is a difference, you know, and to equate the two in a comparison between sun and son to show Xmas is pagan is ridiculous. You have gone from a play on words over sun/son to a play on words over differing meanings of "light", and again only in modern spelling and meaning.I think you are missing my point...
It isn't about the "play on words" It is about the beliefs of the time...
Pagan beliefs held that the Sun (A god) was the light of the world and celebrated the "re-birth" of that light during Saturnalia...the Christians believed that Christ was the light of the world and thus celebrate his "birth" during the same time period...They are both celebrating the birth/re-birth of a god...(even christians are celebrating a re-birth actually...as Jesus was God...and he was already around)Christians believed that Christ brought spiritual salvation to the world. Not that he had anything to do with light (photons or heat) in the sense the nearest star to us is connected to "light".
While Saturnalia might (might - we don't really know) have been concerned with the winter solstice and the return of photons to the world in the coming months, Christmas most certainly was not. Nor is there any indication that Saturnalia celebrated the rebirth of Saturn (the god of the celebration) as Christmas did. It was in honor of Saturn, but not about the god's birth.Seriously wilderness? Normally you approach things better than this...
I am going to assume that you know and understand the beliefs and practices of the Pagans (roman type in this case) and the celebration surrounding this time of year and the purpose behind it.
And I will also assume that you know and understand the beliefs and practices of the Christians and the celebration surrounding this time of year.
Salvation is that Light...
The light (photons) of the sun..is the "salvation" of the earth in that it brings about life (plants that will be the harvest)...
The same of Christ (with the exception that this was more "spiritual based" than literal based)
Let's see if we can agree on this point or not... "Most if not all Christian holidays/celebrations are based in pagan roots, as this was used to bring about conversion more readily" Can we agree on this? Or do you see it differently?As well as horrific ultraviolet radiation and incomprehensible heat mitigated by being way, way far away from it.
So, to fit this into your analogy, Jesus is then a molten, radioactive abomination we need to run away from.LOL... Well if Jesus was a real person...then yes one might wish to run...
You do understand we are talking about beliefs of two systems...one Pagan and one Christian...And not our personal beliefs correct?
What salvation is the light? Good gravy. Jesus said he is,"I am the light of the world". That is to say he shines light into dark places. (Similar to a flashlight illuminating darkness).
And Salvation is found through Jesus Christ according to Christian belief...Is that not correct?
Then Salvation is the Light...As I said before...Or the Light is the salvation.. However one wishes to say it...
I think you're stretching way too far to provide a link between a Christian celebration and a pagan one. A link that simply wasn't there.
Because no, most Christian celebrations are not based in pagan roots, at least not when they were created. They were very often made specifically to promote conversion, but with a Christian base, not pagan. The only connection was that they were on the same day, or nearly so - this simply does not make them "based" on a pagan holiday. Nor does the unstated but very obvious purpose behind them.
It is true that many of the specific parts of some Christian holidays can be found in pagan roots. The Xmas tree, giving of Xmas gifts, candles or lights at Xmas, decorating with evergreen boughs or wreaths, traditions with mistletoe, the Easter bunny, the jack 'O lantern - these are all pagan based. They are also much later in the evolution of what started as a pure Christian holiday - as Xmas, All Saints Day and Easter evolved into what they are today they picked up parts and pieces from all over the place.
Some of these are quite current. Santa Claus as we know him started life in the 1822 poem "Twas the Night Before Christmas" by Clement Moore and became the recognizable form he has today in an effort by Coke 100 years later. Rudolph was born in a purely business transaction for Montgomery Wards. Trick or Treating was uncommon until the 50's.
So while Xmas has picked up a large number of pagan traditions, modified through time to fit the needs of the people then, it was not constructed or based on pagan rituals or celebrations. It was constructed purely as a Christian celebration, honoring the Christian god. While it was deliberately put on a day near that of Saturnalia (and that of the celebration of Mithra a little further north) that does not make it based on either of those things any more than deliberately putting All Saints Day on the same day as Samhain, the Druid celebration, made the celebration of Christian saints a pagan ritual.
Peoples everywhere put great stock in their parties and celebrations, but it is for the most part the party that counts, not the reason behind it. Give the people a Christian party and their conversion becomes much easier when they need change only the reason to party, not the party itself. Early Christian leaders knew this very well - Rome had done the same thing for a long time - and used the concept to good effect. The key, from their standpoint, was a Christian celebration though, and not another pagan one.Ok. Well first let me say...I have alot of respect for you and your discussions....Which is why I was surprised in how our conversation was going...
Ok..Now let see...
You are correct in what you are saying, however I don't agree with your conclusions.
Yes the celebrations are "Christian and for the worship of a Christian God", But the celebrations were taken from Pagan roots...Even as far back as some of the Jewish customs...They just omitted the parts that didn't or couldn't fit with thier beliefs.
And yes, these traditions have evolved over time.
If we look at St. Bridget..which was the Pagan Goddess Brighid...This is an example of Christians taking a Pagan belief and changing it to a Christian one in the effort to get more converts...
I'll quote here a few things:
"A final quote about the selection of December 25th as the birthdate of Christ is necessary. Note an article in The Toronto Star, December 1984, by Alan Edmonds, entitled, “We owe a lot to Druids, Dutch”: “The Reformation cast a blight on Christmas. By then, of course, clever ecclesiastical politicians had adopted the Pagan mid-winter festival as the alleged birthdate of Jesus, of Nazareth, and thrown in a few other Pagan goodies to make their takeover more palatable.”
and
"The Encyclopedia Americana, 1956 edition, adds, “Christmas…was not observed in the first centuries of the Christian church, since the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of remarkable persons rather than their birth…a feast was established in memory of this event [Christ’s birth] in the 4th century. In the 5th century the Western church ordered the feast to be celebrated on the day of the Mithraic rites of the birth of the sun and at the close of the Saturnalia, as no certain knowledge of the day of Christ’s birth existed.”
Why would they go against the norm of celebrating the death of persons and start a tradition of celebrating the birth?
"The Saturnalia, of course, celebrated Saturn—the fire god. Saturn was the god of sowing (planting) because heat from the sun was required to allow for planting and growth of crops. He was also worshipped in this dead-of-winter festival so that he would come back (he was the “sun”) and warm the earth again so that spring planting could occur."
And Jesus is the "Spiritual" version of this.
I am not saying you are wrong in your conclusions...I just don't agree with you. We both seem to be saying the same things, but our final conclusions don't match.I think you're right - we pretty much agree, but differ only in the conclusions drawn.
For instance, you say Xmas was declared in the fifth century to be Dec. 25 as (read; because) there was no known date. But Christmas was already being celebrated, and had been for some 200 years, on various dates. Choosing that date was NOT the beginning of the holiday, just a standardization effort, and the reasons for it's existence were already set. Set for Christian reasons, not pagan ones.
Sorry, St. Brigid was an Irish lass that lived from 451 to 525 according to the Catholic Online. Unless you refer to a different St. Brigid (keep in mind only the Catholic church can make saints) she had nothing to do with the formation of Xmas as it happened long before her birth and neither was she a pagan god.
While the Toronto paper insinuates the holiday was a changed Pagan one, it was not. It was a new holiday that "just happened" to share the date. It also plainly states that some of it came from the Druids, but fails to say just what. It is quite true that some of current practices originated with the Druids, but none of those were incorporated into the very early celebrations. Our current rituals most definitely have some Druid roots, but it was not so at the beginning.
But much of this is opinion, and much more is deduction from known attitudes of the time. There was absolutely no reason for the Christian church to take on Pagan celebrations or rituals that would destroy or weaken the church; there was great reason to create a new, Christian, holiday that would help convince pagans to convert. It is entirely true that newly converted pagans would inevitably bring some of their traditions (maybe pine boughs, candles or mistletoe) to the new holiday, but that does not mean that the church leaders creating the day instituted them or even approved of them. And, to me, that means that the roots or basis of Xmas is not pagan; it came entirely from the early church. It did not remain so pristine for very long, but the beginnings were absolutely Christian in nature.
And in any case, the Christmas we know and celebrate today is far from what either the pagans OR Christians would have recognized in those first few centuries AD. Evolving from a purely Christian celebration to a mostly secular one with religious overtones, it is impossible to say just what the "belief" of Christmas is today. It very much depends on the person celebrating it and is as varied as people are.St Bridgit (Goddess Brigham) has nothing to do with Christmas...That was just an example of using Pagan roots for a Christian custom to increase or ease conversion... I am aware of what the Catholics claim concerning her...As this was about the timeframe they were first attempting to convert the northern Europe area...
You know there was a court case in the State of Ohio...around 1990 or so...because a school wished to take out all nativity and Christmas from the school to seprate church from state...the parents fought it and won...The court determined that the Nativity and Christmas had nothing to do with any religion and was a practice that pretty much the whole world practices in so form or another and therefore was considered secular in nature and not religious...
I have done a lot of research in this and other Christian practices...And from what I have found, most are based in adopted pagan practices...The earliest I have found for the celebration of Christmas (regardless of the name used) was around the early to mid 400's, with it being declared a religious "holiday" in the early to mid 500's. If you know of some other sources that say different I would like to know what they are so that I can research into them myself. If you don't mind providing them.Absolutely incredible that ah Ohio court would say that the nativity has nothing to do with religion. Christmas I could see - it has become as much secular as Christian - but not the nativity. Not unless the court has decided that Christianity is a myth, and I highly doubt that. Somebody needs a new job.
Much of my information comes from the Catholic Encyclopedia, of which http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm
is one of the pages used. I looked into this and wrote a hub, with some of the sources listed at the bottom. A difficult bit of research as nearly every site I looked had an axe to grind; either it was Christian or secular with nothing in between and the site author determined to prove their point. One Jewish site started out fine but deteriorated into a general blast at Christians; it was so bad I threw out everything from them when early celebrations became Christians stripping Jews naked and whipping them through the streets.
Me, I don't care. I'm not Christian, but don't care one bit just why or how Xmas came about; I care about the love, family and giving that the holiday has become to me. I do hate to see Christians give up all that is good about the day because of a misbegotten belief it's pagan, though.Thanks for the info. I'll look into that.
And I agree...Christmas is a good thing (most times...Black Friday is a bear)...
And for those Sheldon Cooper fans out there-"it's a Saturnalia miracle!"
That is rather sad. There are two things I hate,
1. Those who are intolerant of others' cultures and or religions.
2. The Jehovah's Witnesses.
See what I did there?
The only atheists who doesn't buy his/her family and friends gifts during Christmas are the stingy lonely ones.
I also know some very religious people who are too cheap to buy presents and complain when they get them. I only know them because they are family, so I have to.
So, in conclusion, go out and buy some crap that people don't need or what, but not for any religious purposes, but because it's good for the economy. After all that is what Christmas is about isn't it?shes 5. of course she'll feel that way. i remember being younger than that and being sad because my dad wouldn't let me play with his hatchet. when her friend grows up, she probably wont thing much of at all. im all for people having compassion, but there are much worse things in life than this. also, maybe its a good lesson for the child that maybe everything you want and think you need in your life isnt necessary. not to mention life isnt always rainbows and butterflies.
Dear Santa
I already have everything I could possibly wish for this year, I've got my family, good friends and plenty of love. Please take care of those who need you.
Thanks
Silverspeeder.Many JW's give their children plenty of gifts. Just not on this Day for this reasoning. But It is the misconception of many that they are cheap or cruel for doing so to them. But such is their belief ! However wrong you or I think it is that they choose not to on this a Holy day.
And I think it was mention here already but it truly wasn't Christ's Birth date that we actual celebrate. But in fact it is His conception from Heaven Unto Our World and this Planet for It meant a type of Death. And than a rebirth which every one here born of a woman has also undertook.
From our spirit being of GOD into a flesh Being of the Fallen son Satan's world. So it is the conception of GOD into a man that we celebrate unknowingly because it meant the Prophets and their scriptures were true and being fulfilled.
The Sad thing is that the JW's and the Jews do not believe Jesus is the embodiment of GOD in the Flesh. And neither do the Muslims. Jesus is GOD with Us in the same condition as we were placed in to show us the way unto Salvation. GOD so Loved the World that HE gave His only Begotten SON to Die for Our Sins. Our original Sin of Failure to repent when it was needed and our Failure to confirm the True GOD instead of the false God Lucifer as Our Father and Creator. Merry Christmas Never X out GOD whether HE is in your Past, Present, or your Future. Whether HE comes to you as the Father, the Son, or The Comforter. There are three Ages and There are three that the Human Mind associate with each age as the True GOD of us All.No, the Jews do not believe Jesus was a god, and neither do the Muslims. Nor the Buddhists, Shintoists or Hindus. Or the Atheists, Sikhs or the Pagans. None of the dozens of indigenous African or American religions carry that belief, and neither do the aborigines of Australia.
Actually, it is only the small minority of past and present world population known as Christians that have so sadly deluded themselves into believing a man was actually a god.And there you have It! The end times doctrine, there shall be a small majority with the truth of a thing and the whole world will be deceived and whore after the Beast and the Harlot.
Without the belief in the story of the fall or the division of Time many will be deceived. Many are called and only a few are chosen, My children are destroyed for their lack of knowledge and who I am is. The Christian will become the minority here soon and many of the so called Christians shall Fall away. This is all scripture not of my making but of Father's making. We are in the END Time Season this I wholeheartedly Believe. The Apostasy is all about Us and the Elect have yet to show themselves as such. I would rather be deluded as you say; than Ignorant to the Truth of GOD and who He Is and what He is doing and has done for us all. The Apostles did believe and so do I. Thomas had a little trouble at first also but soon it will be undeniable to all. As they learn from true Christians the sings and the warnings of things yet to come.If you think Christians are a small "majority" you should probably consider revisiting the first grade and learning to count.
If your children are being destroyed for lack of knowledge, then teach them! Teach by example, hands on experience though, not just spouting nonsense like we see here. Do some miracles, things impossible under the laws of nature, and do them on TV with a live audience of scientists carrying recording and measuring instruments. The best teachers use far more than their mouths.Actually, it is only the small minority of past and present world population known as Christians that have so sadly deluded themselves into believing a man was actually a god. GOD was actually a Man Not my Children GOD's Children Brother Miracles happen before your eyes everyday awake and see them seek and you shall find them I can not give to you what you will not seek or wish to disprove. Science proves GOD to some and confuses others but It has never disproved God to Any Yes they use their hearts to teach faith.
You didn't do a miracle, defined as an action impossible under natural laws. I didn't learn anything from this ramble, except you like flowery words whether truthful or not.
You do know, don't you, that an inability to disprove something does not give any indication it is there? Think of the FSM or the Flying Purple People Eater here...
I don't want your heart to teach me anything, least of all a faith that is based on desire rather than fact and truth. But if you would use your mind/body/spiritual powers to do that little miracle thingie it the lesson would be much appreciated.Jesus gave you many miracles and you discounted HIM as you would me or mine. Miracles happen everywhere and every hour of the day on this planet. I am not GOD or HIS messenger I am however one of HIS children which has come to Light and I have no need to change your mind or produce something you would discount because of the influence you are under.
You must come to that on your own time frame and with your own beliefs even the Devil can't make you believe any such nonsense that you already do.
That is and was of your own free will that you used. And you alone have chosen as you have and You will stand before God as will we all and make an account of why you choose as you did.
Source Is GOD/ The Universe doesn't exist without out HIM and there is your Proven of GOD or a god or do you believe nothing comes from nothing and some how some exploded and made everything? you have much more faith then I if you do.But I didn't see Jesus' miracles. Neither did anyone else alive, and neither did anyone that reported them. All the reports we have are through multiple people, people with a bias towards making him a god in order to profit personally from it. You believe them if you wish; I require more.
And you're not going to teach, are you? Just spout meaningless opinionated drivel without anything to back it. No miracles at all, in spite of a terrible need to teach your fellow man.
I guess I do have more faith, then. Because I don't see a real problem with "something from nothing" as you put it - we see that happening all the time in the subatomic world, and the singularity that existed at the time was nothing at all like what the universe is today. Certainly different laws operated in that singularity; laws that allowed or produced very different things than what we see today.
On the other hand, you postulate an entire different universe, populated with a single intelligent creature. A creature that made us, loves us and wants us to be with it as it throws us into hell. A creature that was created by nothing, just as your universe was (according to you) while simultaneously existing forever without being created. None of which we have any reason to believe even might exist.
Can you detect the difference? One modeled at least somewhat on what we see happening around us, the other on pure imagination? Which do you think requires more faith to believe is true?See you Have me confused with what the world has come to know of the Today's Christian I am not of their kind. I Know that there is a Heaven it is above us. I Know what they call hell is only a separation from the true Creator and I know that there was a Fallen away because History as it has so often been said repeats itself .
Subatomic or not it still had to come from somewhere or some thing which I consider to be GOD. In whose Image I was created in. I know That Lucifer fell because all throughout History he has fallen. EVIL and GOD exists GOD is good and so far GOODness is still in control in the Heavens for they have not fallen upon us.
Its snowing here. Today's Miracle every snow flake will be made different and it was of three other types at the least before it was a snow flake. A gas [Spirit] a Solid {Flesh} and a Liquid [?] neither spirit nor flesh but both restored as It once was.
I have seen many things that challenged the unexplainable were they all miracles? I do not know but I believe at least some were. Don't get hung up on seeing one until you believe you most likely won't . For they are of GOD there is another God here on this planet he is the reason we are as we are and he was order home for a little while when the task was completed and he will be returning for all his children soon hope if doesn't get ya! as of today he has ya with both hands around your neck. call upon the Lord Jesus and break his hold brother don't be deceived again.Contributing God to something we don't understand has led many to not reaching there potential.
BTW, the Big Bang theory doesn't speculate that the universe was made from nothing, it's just that everything was compressed. Education is the light my friend.That would show this statement to be untrue.
If you actually KNOW these things, rather than have an unsupported opinion about them, then why will you not teach the rest of us, and save us all from the burning? SHOW us the heaven, don't just mouth endless and useless platitudes and opinions. SHOW us that hell is not fire, only separation, don't just say so. Take us on a trip there, send a remote camera, whatever it takes, but SHOW what you claim. Or at least give specific instructions on how we can visit ourselves and verify your claims before believing in them.
Tsk, tsk. Debating from ignorance should never be done - subatomic particles popping into existence do NOT have to come from somewhere, and you have zero reason to say they do. Only the unsupported opinion that making such a claim will help your claim of God's existence; what it actually does is plainly show that rather than support that claim with evidence you will make up reasons or lies for it to be so. You ruin your own credibility.
Snowflakes are formed under well defined and understood natural laws and never, ever violate those laws. They are NOT a miracle, unless you wish to define "miracle" as anything you find neat, pretty or don't understand yourself, and if that's the case you have nothing of interest to contribute to a discussion of miracles.
Same thing - miracles are actions that cannot happen. That you are ignorant of the cause or details does not mean they were miracles. I confess, I do not believe you have seen a miracle and I do not believe you can create a miracle yourself in spite of all your spiritual knowledge and ability. I do not, then, believe that you have anything to teach, just more unsupported opinions and claims of things you cannot give evidence for. Please prove me wrong and make a miracle??
It's always fun and interesting when someone claims miracles happen everywhere and all time, but can't produce one. Not even one.
Does this really bother you. If you are right and we come before God and he asks why I didn't believe he existed, the answer would be easy. "Well sir, I couldn't see or detect you in any way, I studied prayer and found no statistical evidence that prayer works so therefore I assumed you were not here as you gave us a thinking analytical brain. How is that going to work for you. You stand before God and he asks why were you Christian, didn't you see the commandment where I told you to follow one God? The first thing Christians did was divid me up in three. What will your response be?
That's some messed up logic. First you have to prove your God exists and then you have to prove the universe can't exist without him before you jump to the conclusion that the universe is proof of a Christian God.Christianity does exists we are talking about it GOD does exists We are talking about HIM as are millions of others on our planet. The universe does exists because we have been there in our spaceships and have a space station in It and/Or we have been to our MOON and it is in space is it Not?
I think it is easier to believe what I do over those who believe it was all thrown together by chance and proceeds by chance I can't put my little brain around that However I find it easy to believe there is some one or some thing greater than I or we.
I believe in the three periods of TIME eternity, Heaven before the Fall, the Present Time period everything after until today , the future the return of GOD as Jesus and then TIME never Ending or Eternity again or once more.
So No I find it very easy to say Yes there is a GOD and YES he is coming back to repair and reclaim that which was broken.It may very well be easy to believe in the goddunit thingy, but I would submit it is actually quite hard to believe that, at least, for the active, inquisitive mind. Perhaps, you're not referring to it being easy as opposed to just being lazy.
I might be a bit lazy but I rather think It is because GOD is not the Author of confusions and that He makes It as Simple as Pie! So my right choice is to believe Upon HIM and the truth I have come to Know about HIM and the Story of How we became to be here as we are. It makes perfect sense to me as of today and I don't see that changing ever.
God is not the author of explanations, either. It is people who choose to think so they can understand things rather than be lazy and remain in ignorance. If it were not for thinking people who wanted to learn, we would all still be hunter/gatherers living in fear of wild animals and each other.
Thinking people don't believe in the fairy tales of gods stories on how we became to be here because they make no sense and are childish at best.With over 4,200 different religions just on this planet, there appears to be a little confusion.
Using your logic Peter Pan and Harry Potter will exist because we talk about them?
Fascinating. We KNOW the universe exists because we have been there in spaceships. We KNOW the moon exists because we've been there. How about the same standard of proof for your god? How about we KNOW it exists ONLY after we have seen it, touched, measured it, etc.? Does that work for you?
Same thing - how about suspending that belief until you have been to each of those periods? Don't just make them up and believe: make them up, but then test thoroughly for veracity before believing, as in experiencing them. Does that work for you? Why not?
By your standards I believe not in that which I have not seen touch or felt either so we were never at the moon there are no men in space and those were empty rockets shot in to the sky! On the other Hand I have been touch By God and I have seen His work and I have heard the testimonies of many Others and their stories I choose to believe as you choose yours There is no debating from me on what you believe I am sharing what I believe. Yours was I said has been made with a free will and as we all will have to explain your choice to the Creator of the World some day. Because we all meet our maker whether you believe its a sub partial or nothing at all you'll meet it. Even if it is in the middle of your dying Mind any doubt could end in a Devastating final dream I chose to have a eternal dream you chose what you will its your soul I have given mine back to HE who Created It Have a nice day I am getting back to work as this is going nowhere and is off topic as it was design to to be.
But you have not been touched by God. You have had emotions that you assign to being touched by god. You have seen things that you have no idea if god did but assign it to him anyway. You make claims like "meeting your maker" when you don't even know if there IS a maker.
Yet you DO understand evidence and proof - why not apply it to your religious beliefs? Because you don't like the result when you do?If I show you a doll, can you point out where exactly you were touched? Did you report it to the authorities?
It is sad the little girl won't get to celebrate. My God is very much into celebrating, as is the God of the Jews. I do think it peculiar that people who don't believe in Christ compete to spend money and make the perfect Christmas for their children. For that matter it seem peculiar when Christ followers do it too. The first Christmas was silent, except for the sound of the animals. The stars were bright and there were angels.
I think there should be a law making everyone go out and stare at the stars every night of December. Except when its below zero. That would make the best celebration and the JW's wouldn't mind.
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