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Class War or Generation War

  1. barranca profile image71
    barrancaposted 7 years ago

    David Brooks in his latest nytimes column seems ready to conceal class war with generational war.  None of these puppet pundits want to look at America's vast and useless military empire and the crushing sums it takes to sustain it.  Comments? 

    link to article:   http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/opinion/02brooks.html

    1. qwark profile image61
      qwarkposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Barranca:
      I may want to respond.
      CAn you pls define both: "class war" and "generational" war for me as it refers to your question...thanks.:-)

      1. barranca profile image71
        barrancaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I'm not trying to get too sophisticated.   Where does the money go?  To the old or the young?   Or to the rich or the poor?  How should we use our resources?  Where to divide the pie?  Military hogs more than half....then comes medical and social security.

        1. qwark profile image61
          qwarkposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          BArranca:
          The answer to "where does the money go is obvious." It goes anywhere "they" want it to go.
          Social Security has always been a "general fund" source.
          Who/what is there to control their spending?
          In a true Democracy, the people rule. In a Republic (which we are)people vote for thier leaders and THEY rule.
          There are no checks and balances. The Federal Reserve allowed bankers and mortgage companies to do as they wish (gambling) to increase profit. Bush and his boys did a fine job of almost ruining us.
          If we come out of this a healthy nation, there have to be controls in place to keep the greedy from driving us into another terrible recession.
          The most important thing before us is to get us off foreign oil!
          There are myriad ways to produce energy.
          As long as "oil" rules, progress in the good ole USA will continue to wither and die.

        2. profile image0
          sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Lets close forgien bases, close our borders and take care of Americans first. Stop forgien aid in all forms everywhere.

          1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
            Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I agree with all the military parts being pulled back into the United States (Mexico is American{it's a continent} just for the record)

            Things like the Red Cross and humanitarian efforts (private not government) should be allowed to continue though.

    2. Izzy Anne profile image60
      Izzy Anneposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      What an extremely stupid article.  If you put all old people together and ask them as a group to kill themselves to make life easier for their descendents, they could probably as a group decide that would be best, but as individuals, no-one would  commit suicide.  Yes, suicide, because that is what the author wants.  He wants old people to refuse benefits that they need to stay alive.

      Yes, caring economically for the aged is a huge problem in all societies, but that article has no solutions.

    3. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      How do you figure the US military to be "useless"?

      1. barranca profile image71
        barrancaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I don't mean useless....just way too expensive.  Each soldier in Afghanistan costs a million dollars a year.  I just don't see how we can justify such expense when we are being buried by deficits and selling our store to the Chinese.  America has to give up this notion that it is either our destiny or our natural role to play policeman for the world.  I would rather use our military in very limited ways like helping in Haiti, or intervening in the slaughter in the Congo.

        1. barranca profile image71
          barrancaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Check out this article in today's cbsmarketwatch:

          http://www.marketwatch.com/story/our-de … 2010-02-02

          This is of far more concern that anything Al Qaida is likely to do to us.

        2. Sab Oh profile image59
          Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          It's not too expensive when we need them. And prevention is a lot cheaper than reaction. You can't just decide to have a military when you need it tomorrow. A lot of people in Haiti would be even more out of luck if we didn't have a military establishment in place that could be called upon. I don't think too many people thought the military was too expensive on Sept. 12th. I don't think too many will think it too expensive if Iran gets the bomb and starts lobbing them around. Social security and the like are moot if the nation is not safe and stable.

  2. profile image0
    sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago

    How about the cost and lost jobs to illegals?

  3. Cagsil profile image60
    Cagsilposted 7 years ago

    War in and of itself is purported for selfish reasons and no other. Each war started was began with an irrationalized belief.

    I say it was irrationalized because the morality of the actions ruins life.

    The "WAR" to come is going to be a generational class war. These two you mention will be included as one of the reasons for the beginning of the next war in America.

    Social class, generational class, traditional religious class and those who want their freedom will ultimately begin clashing.

    Just a thought. big_smile

    Btw- the war to come, will not be realized until it's brought forth and thousands begin taking measures into their own hands.

  4. tobey100 profile image59
    tobey100posted 7 years ago

    It's the 'vast military complex' until we need them then it's 'why aren't they getting here fast enough'  Three of my brothers are retired military.  Didn't do it for the money and definitely not for the fame.  This nation does not, nor ever has had a military empire.  Sorry I stumble into this thread.  I try to avoid the kook fringe.

    1. barranca profile image71
      barrancaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      For as far back as i can remember the US has been spending over half its budget on the military, far outspending the entire rest of the world combined.  We have over 720 military bases in over 100 countries.  We, and the rest of the world with us, are collapsing economically under the weight.  The cost of useless, elective wars is spectacular.  And we worry about social security of old people who have paid their dues?  I wouldn't deny that perhaps the system needs some tweaks like means testing and perhaps bumping up the age again etc.  But while we are at it, how about closing a few or several or perhaps hundreds of those military bases.

      1. rhamson profile image77
        rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        As long as the US has a need to feed its' addiction to oil and the oil companies sell us every drop of it the wars in the middle east will not end.  We have an everpresent profile whether from the ground or the air to make sure the oil is delivered.

        Eisenhower warned the nation of the military industrial complex that would overtake our economy and the oil companies have found a way for us to flex it.

        Eliminate the oil and get onto the next crisis.

        1. Sab Oh profile image59
          Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          How do you "eliminate the oil"?

        2. profile image0
          sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Then your arguement is with the car companies.

      2. qwark profile image61
        qwarkposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Barranca:
        Thanks.
        I don't know what the 2 terms ya mentioned mean, but in ref to your questions all I can offer is that in todays world, the countries with the most lethal weapons rule in ref to "force."
        "Isolationism" would be stupid on a planet that is shrinking as we speak.
        When you consider that the majority of human life on this planet is illiterate and living in deprivation, one might think "to hell with 'em, let them destroy themselves."
        The 1+% of civilization that are the "movers and shakers," think of them as potential fodder for their plans for greatness.
        If you remember, several yrs ago, many bases were shut down and the economies of nearby towns collapsed.
        I'm afraid the same thing would happen in countries where our bases are active. Not only that, but the possiblity exists that if we are not there, opportunities for our enemies would be realized and taken advantage of.
        I agree with you that if we can't pay our debts off, we will rapidly move toward being a 3rd world nation. If that happened, the whole human population would be in jeopardy.
        My personal feeling is that we are heading for a 1 world gov't or oblivian.

        1. profile image0
          sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Lets keep American bases open and close forgien bases. We can defend ourselves from here for a lot less money.

      3. Sab Oh profile image59
        Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        The US is not collapsing economically, and withdrawing our military from around the world would make our eventual involvement in huge, multinational wars much more likely while not putting one dime into granny's social security check. Doesn't make sense to me.

      4. profile image0
        sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        And when we're attacked again, what would you propose we do?

    2. Ralph Deeds profile image72
      Ralph Deedsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      When was the last time we really "needed them?" Iraq--NO. Afghanistan--Questionable. Vietnam--No. Grenada--No. Korea--maybe. The only one that I can think of that was justified was chasing Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait our ally. I supported Clinton's action in Bosnia and Kosovo which mostly was dropping a few bombs as I recall.

      1. Misha profile image76
        Mishaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Yeah, and killing a few civilians with those bombs...

        But otherwise I agree Ralph, you military operations overseas  since WWII made you (and the World as a whole) more harm than good probably...

        This is not to say that USSR military operations were any better LOL

  5. Flightkeeper profile image78
    Flightkeeperposted 7 years ago

    Money's tight, we should close the bases in Europe!

    1. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Europeans are too violent. We'd end up back there in a few decades in the middle of another big mess. Better to keep an eye on them while we can.

    2. profile image0
      sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Absolutely!

  6. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    "How about the cost and lost jobs to illegals?"


    Sneak, to put some specific perspective to your glittering generality,

    The Californian agriculture industry is the backbone of the state.

    The strawberry growers alone bring in 80 plus million dollars in revenue....

    Yet those who pick the crops are, over half, undocumented residents, mostly from Mexico...

    Now, there are less (around 800,000) such workers than in the 1920's and 30's (there were over 2 million then) and less than the 1940's and 50's (there were 1 million such workers)....

    Now, if you are ready to put on your gloves, to grab your fruit basket and wade through the methyl bromide laced produce feel free.....

    Go get that job.....

    Why don't you talk about the companies that, with intent, focus their hiring practices on the abuse of "illegals"...who are making less than 5000 dollars per year....

    Hold the right people accountable and stop picking on the helpless.....

    I don't mind picking produce....I've done it....will you join me sneak??? Will you join in the fight against the Strawberry Grower's Association and their ilk?

    1. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Mr. Sneak probably won't go get that job because he would demand more for his labor than they (and we) would pay.

      1. profile image0
        sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        In the first place I own a company negatively impacted by illegal workers. I can't pay a decent wage and compete for contracts because of the illegal labor. You don't have any idea how it impacts a company like mine.

    2. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Illegal aliens aren't "helpless." They made a choice to come to the US illegally. Hold employers accountable but don't miss the rest of the picture.

      1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
        Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Yes hold the employers accountable, but punish the criminals as well or especially. A slap on the hand and come back tomorrow just doesn't cut it. NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

        I agree that the United States needs to stop being the global (free/unpaid) police force. I say let them figure it out on their own, the nations we are fighting and dieing for aren't stupid and they have been around a lot longer than us. They know they can do what they are doing and the U.S. will come running. These older and possibly wiser countries don't have to fight and die or pay the monetary bills their actions have caused. That has to stop.
        The U.S. needs to stop being a chump and take care of our own.
        Later when the world realizes they have to take care of themselves it might be a different story, but for now the rest of the world expects the United States to take care of the worlds problems (keep peace) and pick up the tab for it (in dollars and in our spilt blood) and we cannot afford either bill any longer.

      2. profile image0
        sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Put the illegals and the employers to work on our border fences.

        1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
          Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Put the Illegals in prison. Bring home our soldiers and let them build the 'Freedom Wall'.

      3. kerryg profile image87
        kerrygposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Speaking as the wife of a LEGAL immigrant, do you have any idea how expensive and difficult it is to come to the US legally? We are talking months or years of paperwork that is made deliberately as difficult as possible (for example, at one point my husband had to prove that he had been in the United States on a specific day more than five years earlier) and thousands of dollars in fees even if you do it yourself, let alone if you have to hire a lawyer.

        I agree that illegal immigration is bad, but having gone through the process with my husband and some of his relatives, I can't blame people for doing it in the least. If you're poor and desperate for a better life, what other choice do you have?

        The US should make it much easier for educated foreigners to immigrate and should set up an easy and inexpensive temporary work visa for agricultural and other low paid workers so we can keep better track of people who would otherwise be illegals. That way we can protect them against abuses like slavery in Florida's tomato fields while also benefiting as a country from their work through taxes.

        1. Sab Oh profile image59
          Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          One of the reasons I am most oppossed to illegal immigration is that it is so difficult for those who do it the right way.

  7. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Sab....you haven't been in the military, have you?

    1. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I have not served in the military. Why do you ask?

  8. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    "Mr. Sneak probably won't go get that job because he would demand more for his labor than they (and we) would pay"


    I have no problem with paying respectable wages.....and enabling the social/political infrastructure to enable more money to be passed to the employees....that is how an actual economy is developed...especially when your system is based on taxing purchases, incomes, and properties........

    This is very basic......

    "Illegal aliens aren't "helpless." They made a choice to come to the US illegally."

    For many there is very little choice....

    1) Human trafficking for the sex trade is hardly choice...and this makes up a large percentage of illegal "immigration";

    2) An undocumented person has no redress when crimes or abuses are enflicted upon him or her.....there is fear instead...there is no forum for such people to voice their concerns (or a very small one) without being villified by those who have no understanding of the "immigration" situation in the United States....

    I know people who have been undocumented....I know their families and stories...I have even gone back to see where these particular Americans come from...for they are all legal now...

    Helpless is when a man comes to the United States for construction jobs all over the country...from monument building in Washington D.C. to housing developments in Los Angeles.....and then gets cancer......most likely from the chemicals that he was around while working...for he didn't smoke cigarrettes....

    The cancer came from his lungs...metastacizing to his brain....

    For months prior this man's family had taken him to his doctor, who is a specialist in cancers, describing how he is acting differently....he is falling down...losing control of the left side of his body...but she turns a cold shoulder to his case and blames his problems on alcoholism.....but the man isn't drinking alcohol..he's drinking red bull because he has no energy.....no tests are run....

    After 5 to 6 months of reporting to the doctor, and being rebuffed, it is found that he has tumors in his brain...there is no hope for him....no "debulking" procedure was deemed appropriate (I had some very interesting conversations with his doctors about this)....but Kaiser enabled pharmaceutical companies to profit from his plight by prescribing a man on his death bed pills to fight alcoholism.....as if he could even get a drink from his hospital room.............profit on others pain...and take no responsibility...they die in Sylmar..and the doctor goes home to Malibu.....ridiculous!

    To make matters worse, the "union" that he was a member of cut off his pension payments to his deceased wife with no warning......they changed his policy...

    His wife does not speak much English....and all the forms and letters are worded in Lawyer-ese...which even most lifelong English readers cannot comprehend clearly.....

    They took his pay in dues....but then cut the line as soon as they could....

    and what of the companies who profited from this man's labors?

    Helpless is the fact....I think those who think otherwise should be put in the situation they are trying to minimize...and after 6 months they can be asked their views.....

    Voiceless.....imageless....faceless.....helpless...

    You obviously aren't helping.....

    1. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      "You obviously aren't helping....."


      Are you directing this comment at me personally?

    2. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      "I have no problem with paying respectable wages.....and enabling the social/political infrastructure to enable more money to be passed to the employees"

      Then you are, or should be, against illegal immigration.

  9. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
    Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago

    @MikeLong -There will always be a sob story that makes a person feel bad for another, but that is what the 'churches' are suppose to be for.

    Governments and Laws serve a different purpose and must answer to the people that follow the laws.
    Illegals need to fix their own homes, fight for their own freedom...

    ....NOT steal mine.

  10. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    To anyone who perpetuates ideas like the one you stated...yes..

    Now you will retort, I predict, with "oh I work with...."

    Words speak louder than any stated actions.....

    Spreading untruth, regardless of what a person does otherwise, is wrong.

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      huh?

    2. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      "I know people who have been undocumented....I know their families and stories...I have even gone back to see where these particular Americans come from..." is dramatic and compelling evidence, but "I work with..." - when that is in fact true - isn't legitimate (because you saw on another thread that I mentioned my work with immigrant communities)? Why do you get to have it both ways?

      What ideas are being perpetuated to which you refer?

      And you've got it completely backwards, because actions speak louder than words (sort of a well-known expression).

      1. Sab Oh profile image59
        Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        And, what "untruth" are you afraid is being spread?

  11. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Mikel...how are they stealing your freedom?

    It has been theirs that was stolen.....

    But one would have to know how this process began, and how it has been continued....

    The freedom for Mexican companies to produce for their own markets, and not be driven out of business by Americans.....who's freedom is trampled?

    Import Substition Industry....look into it...

    When farmers are driven off their lands...or made cashless because American produce is being dumped in their local markets who's freedoms are jeopardized??

    Oh yeah...that was free trade, right?

    If you are losing your freedom it is only because corporate interests and their government cronies on all levels are taking them from you......

    The Patriot Act did not come from Mexico or Mexicans.....and such practices by this nation's government on it's people predates any "illegal immigration" problems....does no one remember the NSA scandals from the 1970's?? Were these the first abuses of power? Hardly...

    List to me the freedoms that you have lost....and let us consider them specifically....no grand illusionary statements...

  12. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Let it be your family Mikel, and we'll see how quickly you jump to call it a "sob story"....

    How fortunate you were to not be in such a situation.........where are you from and to whom were you born?  What privilege has that granted you simply because of the answers to those two questions, and then ask yourself....did you earn it?

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      A B S O L U T E L Y

      The United States didn't start off any different than any other country, we are simply a country of people that have learned well and done well, Nothing was given to us...

      we earned through blood, sweat and tears everything we as a nation have.

      1. barranca profile image71
        barrancaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Correction:  we stole it from the natives, slaughtered them, and then enslaved Africans to do our labor.

        1. profile image0
          sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          So why don't you go find either a former slave family or native American family and give them what you've earned. I know it's amazing that white people never work they only steal from others.

          1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
            Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Deleted

            1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
              Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this
  13. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
    Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago

    It is the job of the 'Mexican' government to protect the law abiding citizens of that country. It is up to the people of Mexico to fix Mexico, and ALL of thier own problems.

    Not me and not the United States Government.

    It is the job of the Government of the United States to protect me and my interests.

    Not those of the Illegal Aliens , or any foreign criminals. Or any foreign nationals for that matter.

    If they (mexicans) want to live in the U.S. let them end mexico as a country, and make it the next few states of the U.S. Let them adopt and follow our laws and become one of us, legally.

    Mexicans don't want that, they just want the 'easy money'.

  14. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Actually, the U.S. did start unlike many others....how many nations were able to steal unmeasurable natural and strategic wealth (unlike ever seen before in the history of mankind) and then gain access to world markets because of an ongoing alignment with Britain?

    France didn't fare well....but the British were busy bottling up their shipping in ports.......

    The "Mexican government"?

    There isn't even a true definition for the word "Mexican".....

    only in the Anglo-American altered mind does such a classification work....

    The European elites are doing well in Mexico....and the overwhelming majority of the population who aren't are suffering.....Mexico hasn't been independent to make it's decisions since Juarez...and even then he was challenged by foreign influence constantly......

    Who was behind Porfirio Diaz???...and Mexico has yet to recover from the harm that this man's administration....

    I have heard the "it is Mexico's deal" over and over.....but American economic imperialism trumps all of this....

    Look at the maquila industries that have developed....which American corporations and their South Korean, Japanese, and Chinese puppets also take advantage of....

    Mexico is a battleground right now.....

    Look at Chiapas.....how the government is trying to get privatized forces access to natural resources at the expense of the people inhabiting this rarely mentioned state in southern Mexico..........

    You may believe that you earned your spot....but what if you had been born in Juarez?

    You have no choice over where you are born, or to whom....to claim you earned such a thing is ludicrous...

    "we" cannot earn "you".....

    The land I live on was formerly Mexican...taken illegally by undocumented Anglo-Americans who felt it was their "Manifest Destiny" to drive the Mexicans out.......

    Sweat and blood where spilled on both sides of this conflict, and I doubt that yours is worth more than theirs...

  15. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    and what of those "lost freedoms" you were mentioning?

    I want to see an actual response......

    and it is clear that you didn't bother to look into ISI, NAFTA, or any of the actual pertinent issues discussed here..

    is rhetoric the best answer you can conjure up?

    1. profile image0
      sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Mexico needs more people like you. Why don't you renounce your citizenship and go help them help themselves. I'll send you bus money.

      1. barranca profile image71
        barrancaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Ye old "love or leave it"  response.  i know you are but what am I?

  16. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
    Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago

    I'm sorry that Mexico sucks. Fix It.

    Quit telling me it is my job to fix your country.

  17. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Good to see that you have no actual response that demonstrates any critical thought whatsoever.....


    nicely done....

    The United States is my country....and I think the "free-trade" free movement of companies and capital, but not labor rights, is what is destroying both of these countries....

    Both of these countries feed off of each other...nothing can change that...it has always been, and will always be....

    One must fix both in order to make progress....and I do have solutions....

    But, one person cannot bring change...as our current president shows....

    more people need to think about what they say and about what they believe much more....and not feel satisfied with a quick response on an online forum ......such only feeds false-pride...

  18. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    I'm still waiting for the list of "lost freedoms" Mikel......

    Are you going to show true substance behind your words??

  19. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    And America will lose substantial political/economic/and strategic interests......look at the bases being expanded in Columbia currently....

    Sneak, it is obvious you have never been in the military...or else you would realize what type of wealth creation bases bring....

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      We don't make money from any of those things, the costs GREATLY out weigh the benefits.(in Blood and in Dollars)

    2. profile image0
      sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Mike I'm alot older than you and I volunteered during the war in SE Asia, volunteered and not drafted. Every time I went to town I got a good look at all the peace loving liberals while they spit at us and called us murderers. I say to hell with the other countries they want are buisness and goods then lets do it straight-up no deals.

  20. profile image0
    sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago

    Oh yeah, I was a pussy I was a medic.

  21. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Sneak, what your words have to do with what we are discussing I don't know....

    Instead of looking at the ills of NAFTA and the destruction of import substitution you talk about your draft status and military assignment....how they are comparable I do not know...

    "We don't make money from any of those things" (overseas bases statement from Mikel)

    Yes we do....products are sold that impact American jobs.....more expanding markets, which is what keeps our companies afloat...and the bases which ensure that our hegemony over foreign based resources, human, mineral, or otherwise, keep coming at cut-rate prices....

    How many Americans does KBR employ? How about GE? Do not these companies benefit from American bases abroad? Do not their American investors and employees benefit?

    Of course they do.....

    Chiquita alone needs ongoing American military presence in Panama, Columbia, Honduras, and elsewhere.....


    Mexico and the United States needs more people like me....your statements betrays both your intolerance of critical thought as well as perpetuating of prejudice and latent racism....this is clear....

    "Mexico".....so many people talk about it, but only a tiny fraction actually know anything about it......


    There should be a basic pre-test mandated to be passed before people can speak about certain things.....few would be talking...that is for sure.

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      what you call prejudice and latent racism I call Patriotism

      1. Pandoras Box profile image82
        Pandoras Boxposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        LOL. Man that's sad.

  22. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    American growers benefit.....Toshiba benefits....Ford and GM benefit....they all run across to the border that they themselves work to weaken all the time....at the same time they undermine the American worker....


    The lack of attention paid to these facts...blatant, in your face truths, by people here on hubpages and elsewhere demonstrates clearly the lack of true commitment and courage that a great many people have concerning enacting truly beneficial change...

    I'm glad to have my own head straight...as for the rest of you guys....there is a lot to be learned....

    1. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Funny how easy it is to declare that one's own head is on straight and everyone else has a problem...

      Just like I could declare that this kind of empty, far-left, "look at me, I'm radical!" Chomsky-esque tail chasing is nothing but the intellectual masterbation of people quite impressed with themselves but ultimately and perpetually irrelevant and therefore of no good use to anyone, especially those they would proclaim themselves the champions of.


      ...so I won't say that.

  23. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Mikel....your list of "lost freedoms" please....you've had ample time to get something written down....

  24. profile image0
    sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago

    Mike you stated I was never in the service and believe me I've heard all this many times before. We need to do our own manufacturing let them sort their own mess out. Europeans can afford their own military lets take that money and reform healthcare for working Americans and apply the same tarrifs on the countries we do buisness  as they put on our goods. If they want our protection they can pay us to offset the cost to the American taxpayer. The first thing we need is to end the run of professional politicians.

  25. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
    Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago

    Listing all the thousands and thousands of Mexican problems makes them a United States Citizens' problem how?

    Yes, we from the United States know that Mexico is a screwed up country run by criminals, that makes it our responsibility to fix because?

    Why is it our responsibility to allow those of you who have not fixed your own problems to bring them to us to fix for you?

    Your Country, Your problem.   FIX IT.

  26. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Mikel....you can continue on your path...which is ultimately useless, or you can free your mind....

    I recently posted an article about the "illegal alien" problem and how it relates to strawberries.....

    I can only lead to water...there is nothing else I can accomplish..

    I'm not going to exert myself further with you Mikel, for I don't see anything beneficial for either of us...while I will continue to comment, it won't be to question you directly....

    Patriotism in the "American" traditional sense is racism...which is why the first film...and major success that stood as a longstanding monument to film was "Birth of a Nation" and why the KKK continues to pass itself off as a protector of this nation.

    Just because one doesn't hold a Klan membership doesn't mean that they don't still find themselves on the same team....

    And that is directly the opposite of my own....

    It was good to learn so much about you sir...

    1. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      With all respect that may be due, saying that someone's mind isn't free, or that they are just being obstinant by not 'drinking the water' of wisdom that you are so graciously trying to lead them to because they do not agree with your point of view is very inappropriately arrogant and not at all conducive to a fruitful discussion.

      Further, equating American patriotism to racism and suggesting that people engaged in this discussion are akin to klan members is flat-out offensive and wrong.

  27. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
    Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago

    @ Mike Long -Patriotism could only be considered racism, if each nation was made up of only 1 race. Which to the best of my knowledge is not the case.

    If all nations were the same then we wouldn't have them, we would be all one country.

    In as much as you leading me to something, it sure isn't water.

    As far as your learning anything about me, well we both know what you mean by that, and it does you no credit.

    Good Luck convincing the good people of the United States, that somehow, someone else having a crappy country that they refuse to fix, somehow makes it our responsibility to fix.

    We are not buying it anymore. The days of preying on our genorosity and naivete are ending.

    My mind is Free, as am I.
    (Resistence is futile was a nice touch by the way) ....lol

    1. Pandoras Box profile image82
      Pandoras Boxposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I don't think anyone has suggested that we need to fix the problems of Mexico or any other nation. What has been suggested is that our own policies of greed have led to troubles elsewhere in the world, which in turn have come back to bite us in the ass. We sow what we reap. Only the rich and powerful are protected, so it is the people who reap what the powerful have sown.

      Barranca -it's both. The generation war we're making progress on. The class war, not so much.

  28. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    My nation was stolen as well.....not only through my native American ancestry, but also through the years that I supported conservative regimes, and Anglo-dominant forces.....

    I am upset at the fact that this part of my heritage is largely lost...because other forces within my family didn't value this part........I am still researching this branch of my family....

    There is a reason why Harvard scholars like Samuel Huntington continually point to the "Anglo" as the original American....read "The Hispanic Challenge."....from the "father of American sociology"..

    But his words are false....and have already been rebuked...

    People continue to use "Mexican" and "Mexico" as if there is truly such a singular body.....there is not..aside from when one has to get a passport or state nation of origin....beyond that there are divisions.....a large percentage of "Mexicans" do not identify themselves as such, and do not speak Spanish....but Americans don't take the time to see the microscopic view....

    There are those here who make claims, and then can't back them up....there are "lost freedoms" that have not been listed....just ignored...

    Identifying with the aggressor is a psychological phenomena that can infect anyone...and it largely works...and I used to succumb to it as well....

    I managed to identify it, however, as my article on strawberries identifies the fallacy of "illegal immigrants" breaking the American socio-economic fabric.....

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I thought you said you weren't talking to me anymore?

  29. profile image0
    sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago

    Mike my family has plenty of native American in our blood but that was then and this now, and now we're Americans. We're not indian, black, hispanic or oriental we're Americans. So try not to be so devisive and stand-up as an American.

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I'm not devisive sneak, MikeLong was just trying to make this issue a racial issue. Which it wasn't, it is a national issue.

      1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
        Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I do have a pet peave about people from the United States claiming that only the U.S. is the whole of the Americas (two continents) but I know it comes from the fact that United States-eun sounds terrible....  lol

      2. profile image0
        sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Mikel I wasn't speaking to you, I'm sorry. I think you are on top of things.smile

        1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
          Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          oh ok then... thanks

  30. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    "that was then and this was now"

    Articles that I'm reading in the Daily News here at home don't echo that view....and the rhetoric of local and state politicians, especially the conservative wing of the Republican Party, do not follow that thinking.....

    They continue to use the same inflammatory rhetoric...and it is to them that I direct my force...and to those who follow, knowingly or not...

    If "American" was truly one thing, the traditional inequalities on our society would not still exist....but they do...

    and then the "American Dream" is flashed around, it denies the fact that those who erected wealth, for the most part, did so through means that are no longer legal or physically possible...and you have to look at fillibustering, and ongoing "adventures" in Iraq and Columbia to find the same type of gain........like looking at Dick Cheney's Haliburton stock portfolio from 2004 on........

    A lack of appreciation for "the past" leads to worse understanding for the present and future....

    1. profile image0
      sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Mike I'm a worker bee and I don't like the excesses of the few here who abuse the system. I do believe we have more in common than we have that we differ in. The removal of professional politicians will do a lot to resolve those issues but if we vote them in their our demons and we can only blame ourselves. Theres plenty of room for everybody here.smile

  31. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
    Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago

    If you can't tell it by now, I'll clarify it for you. I love the United States.
    In my opinion it is the greatest country on this planet, it is not perfect by any means, but it is the best game going. I say that as a citizen, a veteran, and as a descendant of a defeated people.

    Other countries should learn from our example, fix thier own countries, and stop blaming our success for their failures to be better than us.

    Peace and Love, Mikel

  32. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Race and nation are synonymous in the United States...up until the Civil Rights movement......but people don't typically care about issues that don't directy relate to them....

    I am more of a universal person....what affects someone in my community, nation, or world affects me...and each of us....

    I suppose some here don't know how it is that their food gets to them....eat well this evening, and thank the "undocumented" who work for less than 6000 dollars per year....the, on average, 24 year old Mexican man who won't live to see his 50th birthday......

    And forget about the growers and sharecropper "owner operators" who are laughing all the way to the bank.....the more fear is promoted about "illegals" the more power the grower has over the work force that will continue to be there.....

    Eat well....

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      But we have had the civil rights movement and we have elected a 'Black' man to the higest office in our country.
      If the Illegals went home and fixed their own country the "evil" United States business owner would have NO power over them... and he would have to play by the rules of the U.S. and pay me a decent salary to do the work he needs done. so who is at fault the law breaker that knowingly goes and breaks the law? or the man who is frugal and finds the best deal he can for as long as it lasts?

      If the criminals aren't happy with their life of crime in the U.S., maybe it is time they go home????

      1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
        Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        and just for the record, I won't be eating tonight, because the 'undocumented' as you like to call the foreign invaders of my country, took the jobs I'm qualified for and I can't get a job. But you know, hey that's probably my fault too, just like all the problems with the 'Mexican' way of life...

  33. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Oh Sab, you never cease to amaze...

    But I have learned to expect as much from you....

    Wisdom is found in research.....I haven't seen anything I have pointed to being refuted....

    what ever happened to import substitution........

    I point to the knowledge (water)

    But few will find out...

    the metaphor works whether you like it or not.....if my analysis of the California Strawberry Industry is wrong, prove it.....I have sources...no one else here, seems to...they just have their "ideas".....

    The Civil Rights movement has not ended, and is continually under attack...as the recent election of Obama has shown...just the ongoing nonsense, which over 20% of Republicans still believe, about Obama's citizenship is proof....their "forgetting" about their own policies that have damaged our nation, show still more evidence...

    these are not my words...they are facts for all to see....

    NAFTA, or neo-con "liberal" trade policies, have weakened this nation's industrial core...from car parts to technology....and the little things, like furniture.......

    My words are nothing...the maquilas are there....I have seen them....

    Arrogance......no.......that is in the court of those who claim to "lose freedoms" and then lack any ability to back up their statements....Arrogance means no responsibility for what they have written or said....

    I am the opposite......

    I cite sources.

    1. profile image0
      sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Mike I got to go now but before I do can I give you a hug?smile

    2. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      You seem to want to play 'dueling book reports' and are becoming increasingly insulting instead of just expressing your opinion - your opinion is good enough for me without showing me all the points on your library card - because ultimately we are coming into conflict over differing points of view not different information. That's why no one is wasting time 'refuting' that information. The point of contention comes when drawing conclusions and forming opinions. You can get your points across without being so antagonistic to the individuals involved here.

    3. rhamson profile image77
      rhamsonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I agree with you that NAFTA has been the single most destruction of this countries manufacturing base.  It allows the large corporations to circumvent the very jobs that support the consumer society we have.  It is typical of American business tactics of short term profit and long term disasters on the backs of the citizenry.  When will the American public wake up and smell the coffee?  We look at the cost of items we buy in Walmart and Target as the standard of pricing yet we do not realize that the jobs eliminated in support of these prices are killing us.

      One of these days the American consumer will not be able to buy the cheap goods the big box stores are providing because either their job will not pay enough or their job will have gone to India or China and leave them too broke for the cheap products to matter.

      Americans are so short sighted.

  34. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    sure....I am an equal opportunity hugger!

    1. profile image0
      sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      See you around!big_smile

  35. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Talk about playing both sides....you come to an article of mine and make statements that have nothing to do with the articles themselves, but only work to antagonize...and then you write this statement, Sab??

    I see the pot is calling the kettle black, eh?

    If you had read the entirety of this thread you will find that your representation of my words are largely false.....

    1. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Have fun talking to yourself.

  36. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Sab....why do you continue to post on my articles and seek conversation if your views just posted here are true?

    hypocrisy in action I suppose....

  37. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    I agree that generational conflicts are in action....but being that so many from one generation to the next carry on the same stereotypes and dislikes...that I believe that our conflicts are more tied to class.....


    Americans are short-sighted...they'd have to be to let their military-minds continue to drag them from one international conflict to another......

    It pays...in cold hard cash...to have an ignorant/bigoted populace....

    Dick Cheney knows.....Haliburton and KBR know it.....

    I do believe that we, as in the United States and Mexico together, need to work together to solve our mutual problems...that is if we truly care about 1)remedying illegal immigration and 2) building economies that take care of each nations' populaces....

    We are symbiotic beings....just as the mitochonrion within our eukaryotic cells......we feed of one another....and we need to make it a more balanced and beneficial relationship....Right now the United States sucks the life out of Mexico.....this needs to change...

  38. Sab Oh profile image59
    Sab Ohposted 7 years ago

    Mexico needs to fix Mexico. Nothing else will work anyway.

  39. MikeNV profile image72
    MikeNVposted 7 years ago

    Everybody has somebody to "blame" nobody has a solution.  Borrow borrow spend spend spend.  Turns out it is not working.

    Turning groups of people against each other clutters the Political Landscape so the Bankers can keep their secret Agenda moving forward at full steam.

  40. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    That isn't true Sab.....

    Not by a longshot....

    Maybe you cannot think of solutions...or do not care....but others do...and we are working dilligently.....

    1. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      It's absolutely true. Only Mexico can (or should) fix Mexico. Personal responsibility applies on the national level as well as the individual.


      If your cousin Larry is a basket case and you give him $10,000, buy him a new suit, set him up with a job interview, and even have a doctor give him a checkup he's still gonna screw it all up, because Larry won't get his shit together until Larry decides to. You can't decide for Larry, and blaming the rest of the world for his own weaknesses won't change a thing.

      Until Larry decides to get his act together he had better damn well keep out of my yard.

      1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
        Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Nicely Stated, I agree

  41. farooqueum profile image61
    farooqueumposted 7 years ago

    i love you

  42. profile image0
    sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago

    Lets just quit doing it, period! No special causes, no trying to save the world, no fighting for whats right, just no more! No more help for third world countries or outsourcing our jobs. Lets make sure we protect America and Americans only. Close both borders and stop all the non-sense. Let Europe take care of Europe and Columbia take care of Columbia and let Israel take care of Israel. Close our borders to drugs, illegal aliens and terrorists. We can develop our own economy so it's self sufficient and only trade straight up with other countries. If they put tarrifs on our goods they get the same on their goods. Then we can have healthcare and college educations and liveable wages. The question is are we brave enough?

  43. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Good....we are speaking ridiculousness....what a wonderful waste of time....

    Sab....you can continue to talk about "responsibility" while you live within a country that runs away from its own and deprives others from any true sense of the word....

    I have to push you on this....that is just the way it is...

    Give me an example of a nation you have been in, for you say you have been in many, and a population that you worked with where this example of yours can be used?


    I say this....to fix Mexico, American companies need to move their production out....and Japan needs to move its factories out....as does South Korea...and Canada, believe it or not...they are moving production to Mexico as well...GM...Toshiba...get out....or pay a much higher price in order to operate...foreign corporations are not needed..

    Mexico's oil needs to remain theirs....and the United States needs to keep from intervening in reforms that lead to a better Mexico......land reform....

    American farmers...like those in Iowa, need to have tarrifs placed against their produce, especially corn, so that Mexican farmers get a decent price for their products...instead of trying to compete with the cheap American equivalent...

    "responsibility"......Sab..if you live in a bubble your logic works....perhaps in a forum on hubpages...but please point to your real-world examples.....I have already stated a few....

    There is no trying to save the world....in order to find solutions one has to be realistic.....one can't build a wall and think that everyone on the outside will leave you alone....additionally, when your life (ahem Americans) is based on the grabbing of cheap resources....material, human, and otherwise....then you can't retreat inside of your borders....

    For America to continue in a way that your livestyles demand...ongoing expansion is absolutely necessary...the expansion and creation of new markets....and the exploitation of new resources....

    Again...the issue here is are we looking at class war?

    Of course....the wealthiest in our plutocracy have many if not most of the same interests as the wealthiest in Britain, France, Mexico, Japan, China, and elsewhere....they are looking to centralize their power, wealth, and sustainability....

    "American"....the middle and lower classes of Americans have more in common with lower and middle classes in Mexico, Iran, and China than with our own elites who use our national name to continue filibustering around the planet....

    Anything that does not recognize these key issues and work to bridge the gaps that enable corporations to perpetuate the "race to the bottom" is an exercise in futility...

    If you don't know what "race to the bottom" means, look it up...

    1. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      "while you live within a country that runs away from its own and deprives others from any true sense of the word...."


      Yes, yes, this kind of masterbatory self-flagellation is very trendy and satisfying among a certain set who have swallowed the whole 'America as the root of all evil = inttelectual' nonsense, but it never has and never will do one thing for Mexico or anyone else. It is just self-serving empty rhetoric that flatters college professors and unwashed, neo-hippies in the homemade bumper-sticker industry and nothing else.


      LOL @ "If you don't know what 'X' means. Fits the stereotype perfectly.


      Finally, dreaming that all foreign companies will leave Mexico (sparing it presumably from the source of all suffering and woe in the world - Capitalism) and insulating the nation from all trade and competition is about as silly as those who call on the US to completely shut itself off from the rest of the world.

      All these empty, impracitcal notions may be fine for writing term papers or wagging tongues at 'Radical Ralph's Coffee Shoppe' but they do exactly nothing for anyone in the real world.

    2. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      "Give me an example of a nation you have been in, for you say you have been in many, and a population that you worked with where this example of yours can be used?"


      What example of mine?

    3. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      "Mexico's oil needs to remain theirs...."


      That'll do them a lot of good. Are they going to drink it?

  44. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    and close....permanently....the School of the Americas....and enable Latin American nations under their sway to remove them....

    The Honduran coup has largely disappeared from American media..unless one is searching for it...all School of the Americas....

    Salvadorian and Mexican military death squads.....stop the funding..take back the weapons...take responsibility for the damage that has been inflicted on innocent people....and leave town...

  45. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    How infantile...truly...

    Sab...you come and write on my articles claiming to have world wide experience....working with immigrant populations...

    You only lead me to assume...and everyone else who reads it, that you must have some experiences to back your ideas with..

    But I don't...I see you, rather, sink to linguistic debauchery....and that proves nothing, nor bolsters your point...

    You bring nothing...but criticize all...where have I seen that trait before???


    "America the root of all evil"......it is the root of the School of the Americas....government sponsored terrorism...perpetuating kidnappings and murder in Ecuador...Columbia (Coca Cola et al)....and the direct and indirect overthrow of what are supposed to be independent states....

    No one is flagellating anyone...I guess some just can't handle the truth.....

    But, one would have to have integrity first....and Sab, you have so far shown very little of that....

    1. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      "Sab...you come and write on my articles claiming to have world wide experience....working with immigrant populations..."

      That is correct.

      If you have a specific question about experience, feel free to ask it but I fail to see where you need to see my resume for me to disagree with your point of view. Let me reassure you that you don't need to meet some kind of minimum criteria to disagree with my opinions. If you lived in the most homogeneous gated community in the country and never set foot outside it your opinion would still be as legitimate as mine. We don't have to compare resumes or library cards to discuss different points of view and just because you are younger and less experienced does not necessarily disqualify your opinion. Maybe we could have a discussion without all these pointless asides...

      As for "integrity," don't start drifting into personal insults again, that WILL disqualify your opinion.

    2. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      "...I guess some just can't handle the truth....."

      When people start insisting that their opinion or point of view is "the truth" the likelihood of meaningful discussion diminishes.

  46. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
    Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago

    @ Sab Oh...


    Nice...

  47. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago
  48. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Don't let my words speak for me.....but all you do is write....and those like you follow thinking their words wise...

    1. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      What do you mean? Why wouldn't your words speak for you? They are your words, aren't they?

      As for "all you do is write," you do know what context we are communicating within, right?

  49. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Take careful note of Sab....the perpetual aimless argument...this reminds me of a certain Monty Python skit...

    1. Sab Oh profile image59
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Why aimless? I am trying to understand where you are coming from and what you are trying to say. Isn't that important to a discussion? Work with me here.

  50. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
    Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago

    @ MikeLong -None of those links makes me think it isn't Mexico's job to fix Mexico.

    All your saying is "there are bad people in the world. some of them are United States Citizens, and some of those are working in the U.S. Goverrnment."

    We already know that... Greedy U.S. businessmen is not a new concept. If Mexico can't stand on it's own, fine let them legally become a part of the United States, accept our laws and way of life and I'm all for giving them all the protections of the United States Constitution. If they don't want that....then ok... let them Fix Mexico, on their own.

    But they don't get to take what they want from my country when it is convenient, and just leave what they don't want.

 
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