The Believer and The Understander

1. 57

   A Troubled Manposted 10 years ago

   How many agree with Eric that the term "Understander" can be applied to those who don't hold beliefs but instead, understand things?
   
   For example:
   
   "I believe in evolution"
   
   "I understand evolution"
   
   One can believe in evolution but have no understanding of it, while another can understand evolution without having to believe in it.
   
   In other words, the understanding of something would replace the belief.

   replyreport
   1. 0

      Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

      where's the thread?

      replyreport
   2. 0

      Emile Rposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Hmm. If it makes you feel good to believe you have an understanding, I say do it.

      replyreport
      1. 57

         A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Reading comprehension issues, again.

         replyreport
         1. 0

            Emile Rposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            We know you have reading comprehension issues. No need to point it out at every turn.

            replyreport
   3. 0

      Deepes Mindposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Our beliefs (or lack thereof) are often forged by our understanding of the world around us as well as things that are presented to us

      replyreport
      1. 57

         A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Actually, it is the lack of understanding that forges the beliefs. If believers had an understanding of the world around them, they wouldn't hold their beliefs. Things are presented to believers, but they don't understand them.

         replyreport
   4. 60

      bBereanposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Interesting.  Being diametrically opposed on most issues in these forums it is rare indeed that you and I could find a phrase which we would both claim to describe our views, even though, here too, we disagree.  Here is the statement that, based on what you have said, I would think you accept, and so do I:  "I don't believe in evolution, I understand evolution." 
      
      Now I realize that evolution is such a critical cornerstone doctrine of Scientism, anyone not accepting and believing in it is told by those who do believe, (even if they refuse to call it belief), that they don't understand evolution.  We are told we are uneducated and ignorant of science. Unfounded assumptions that fit an ideology which espouses the only possible reason anyone would reject this doctrine is because they don't understand it, or science. 
      
      Oh well.  At least we have a phrase to agree on, even if when you say it you deny belief, claiming understanding replaces belief, while I say I don't believe in evolution because I understand it.

      replyreport
      1. 57

         A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Exactly. Hence, you hold beliefs rather than understanding.

         replyreport
         1. 0

            Brenda Durhamposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            haha
            you do misunderstand!

            replyreport
      2. 0

         Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         But then what is stoping you from understanding that evolution is real, your beliefs perhaps?
         
         Evolution for me anyway was not a cornerstone for my atheism. The atheism came before I understood evolution as I began to understand how silly the notion of God was I began to understand there was no God.

         replyreport
2. 58

   Jeramiposted 10 years ago

   A Troubled Man  wrote
   How many agree with Eric that the term "Understander" can be applied to those who don't hold beliefs but instead, understand things?
   ==============
   
   me ..   Do you agree that you "Believe" that you understand.   
   and that there is a difference in believing you understand and actually understanding ?   
   No there isn't!

   replyreport
   1. 57

      A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I don't need to believe I have an understanding if I have an understanding.

      replyreport
      1. 58

         Jeramiposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         I understand that you have understanding.   OR ..
         do I only believe I understand that you have understanding
         
         Come to think about it ???   I'm not sure if you understand or only believe that you do.
         
         I know that I believe I understand these things that I understand,   BUT is our understanding really all that we believe it is?
         
         Sometimes when we understand just a little bit more, we discover we never understood at all.

         replyreport
         1. 75

            Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            and who/what is doing all this understanding and believing?

            replyreport
3. 75

   Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

   This is a well thought out thesis, Rad Man. I appreciate it, if no one else does.
   Questions for you:
   1. Over time, did you drift to the understanding that the notion of God is silly?
   2. Then one day, did you leap to the understanding that there is no God?
   3. What was the mental process that you and your brain used?
   4. Or, was it just your brain?
   5. If belief is not founded on a logical mental/ brain/ thinking process, what prompts belief?
   6. What prompts understanding?

   replyreport
   1. 0

      Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      1. Yes. Just like the notion that Peter Pan exists.
      2. It was not a leap and was not something I wanted. I wanted a sky daddy and eternal life, but I also wanted the truth.
      3. I can not be separated from my brain. I don't exist without it. This is a proven fact. When the brain is shut down so is thought and consciousness.
      4. Again, no thought can happen without the brain.
      5. The evolutionary process has brought us to this point. The superego and the ID make demands on the ego and the ego decides when to give into the demands. What happens when the ID finds a way of tricking the ego into doing what it asks? I think the superego creates a representation of a God and tells the ego what God demands of it as a way of getting what it wants.
      6 Education and thought prompts understanding.

      replyreport
      1. 75

         Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         @ Rad Man:
         (Thank you for answering for ATM. I assume he does not mind at all.) The ID and the Ego both refer to *self *
         But, is *self* the same as * soul?*
         ... or is *soul* a non-word/reality to you?( Either of You?)

         replyreport
   2. 75

      Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      EDIT I meant to address ATM as far as the thesis of the original post. Rad man answered nicely, however. What would ATM answer?  Will we ever know?

      replyreport
4. 0

   Beth37posted 10 years ago

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTahrYXCChI

   replyreport
5. 58

   Jeramiposted 10 years ago

   Sorry  Kathryn...  had to go to work.   
     Who is doing all of this understanding ??   
   The way I understand it (?)  ATM  believes that he is doing ALL of the understanding there is to do, cause, according to him,   ... none of the rest of us are capable of understanding that he has all of the understanding there is to have.   Or at least that is what understanding understanding to be (?) but what do I know ?

   replyreport
   1. 75

      Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      ... Yes, *his brain* is doing ALL the understanding for us.  He must be a  computerized automaton! Why that explains everything! How dare we contradict the ATM Brain!
      No more. I have definitely seen the light. And I must be just like him.
      So It shall be.
      
      ...could some one please wind me up?
      or turn me on?
      a simple push of the button will do.

      replyreport
      1. 57

         A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         You're also not understanding what I'm trying to say, Kathryn. Like Jerami, you simply need to use your brain to think and understand how things work rather than just blindly believing in things. That's the point.

         replyreport
   2. 57

      A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      No Jerami, that is not what I'm saying, you don't seem to "understand".
      
      Yes, you are not capable of understanding until you begin to shed some of your irrational beliefs about the world around you. Believing something works a certain way does not mean you understand it works a certain way.

      replyreport
6. 58

   Jeramiposted 10 years ago

   No more. I have definitely seen the light. And I must be just like him.
   So It shall be.
   
   ===================
   
   I too have seen the light,  BUtttt    I'll not go into this one unless someone makes that choice for me.   And gives me a push.
   
   ATM can be "special" alone

   replyreport
   1. 75

      Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      No, even if someone makes that choice for you and gives you a push, I predict you would resist that light.  Suit yerself!  Me? I will go with the ATM Brain...
      Not Really...as it would be impossible.

      replyreport
      1. 57

         A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Thinking is not impossible, Kathryn, try it sometime.

         replyreport
   2. 57

      A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I am not special nor am I alone, Jerami. Many others can think, too.

      replyreport