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In many countries people are treating children as butlers. so many people are using small uneducated and poor children to do work in their homes, hotels etc.
child labor is a big slavary.And to make thraldom is big mistake and treating small boys as bellboys under 10 is disgusting thing.
Are these kids being forced to work there without pay? If that's the case it's not child labor but slavery. As for stopping child labor, what would be the benefit to doing so? I'm assuming that many of these kids and their families need the money to afford food and basic needs. To make child labor illegal would hurt the families involved. How is that a good thing?
If you feel the work they do is demeaning, well that's your opinion that might not be shared by the kids doing the work. Or you might be concerned that by working all the time, they won't be able to better themselves. It's been my experience that people who decide to better themselves will not let something like a job keep them back, they'll struggle and work to educate themselves.
As long as you don't keep people from educating themselves and/or allowing them upward mobility, what's the problem exactly?
How do you think that a child under 10 can make money. There are so many people not working you can give them money and tell to work in hotels etc....
If a child is unable to work as weak how one can expect work from them?
And they pays less money to them by telling you cant wprk properly and fast.
I'm not sure if I understood your last post. So if I'm way off base here, I apologize.
As an American [me], I don't know how a child under 10 can make "honest" money. From history, I know how this same age group of boys made money for their families in countries such as Greece, and in cities such as Rome.
Could you enlighten us more on that? Like what other job options were you thinking of?
You said, "If a child is unable to work as weak how one can expect work from them?" Not sure what this meant, but, isn't that the families problem?
And as for your last line, isn't that the business owners discretion on what the pay wage is, or the Country's gov. to enforce a min. wage and a min. age limit?
In so many countries scocial adds worns people but if we are not stopping that individually...it will never end ...and hello tell
You said, "If a child is unable to work as weak how one can expect work from them?" Not sure what this meant, but, isn't that the families problem?
this think to ledefensetech not to me..coz m not doing that,...I just want people to face truth...if u r doing..just keep in mind that u r doing child labour
Did you or did you not write, "If a child is unable to work as weak how one can expect work from them?"
Did you or did you not write, "And they pays less money to them by telling you cant wprk properly and fast."?
Did you or did you not write, "How do you think that a child under 10 can make money. There are so many people not working you can give them money and tell to work in hotels etc...."?
Do you think that treating those small kids like butler in home will give them justice by giving money?
There are plenty of ways to make money legitimately at 10. I had a paper route for instance. In days past kids sold newspapers on street corners, shined shoes, made deliveries, etc. Childhood can be a time to train yourself in whatever job you'd like to do as an adult, or it could be a time where you go from job to job until you find something you like. The point is childhood is a time to prepare to be an adult, not time to goof off and get into trouble.
If that's the job they have chosen to perform, then yes they should be satisfied. If they don't like the conditions or the pay, they should be free to choose to find another job. It's only evil when you force someone to work against their wishes. That's slavery.
Child labor isn't black and white. It isn't child labor bad, whatever else good. It's about choice.
RK I think much of what we have here is a failure to communicate. apeksha surely believes that all child labor is evil and needs to cease immediately. She's wrong, but she's compassionate. That at least, should earn her a little slack.
What is wrong with asking questions? Since when is that wrong?
Slack. Cut me some slack. I'm only trying to understand her better. I recognize that there is a communicational gap between her and I. Had I not, then why would I have bothered to apologize to her in the first place?
1. I don't know where she is from?
2. I have concluded it is not from the USA.
3. I wanted to know as to which types of jobs was she referring too.
4. Then it was brought forth to me that maybe I didn't quote her right.
5. So, out of kindness, I asked her whether or not she wrote that stuff or if it in deed was you.
6. For the sake of knowledge, debate, understanding, and compassion- one must first have their "ducks in a row."
7. I can not obtain such without asking the question.
8. What children is she speaking of?
9. Is it or is it not the purpose of gov. to impose laws?
10. Is it or is it not the purpose of citizens to make sure that the gov. follow said laws.
11. And if the family is okay with what's going on, and the employer are within their rights and means, I'm sorry to inform her that there is nothing to be done. Only the people of said country can do it themselves.
12. Sorry. No slack cutting here.
I don't get it. Your damn if you do and your damned if you don't.
You kinda have to read between the grammar concerning ESL cases, RK. Guess I may have a little natural ability there, since I dealt with them a bit.
I am from India.
I think globally not only for US
I think in your country kids working below 10 is not child labour You all things that you all are giving money to them to study n to their parents...and its legal
Now think that u got much money from god's grace n in well condition,suppose u are in place of these kids then, that also will be the same thing for u people, coz there are such poor kids n nobody else who solds newspapers on traffic signals.
Its very easy to say, but difficult practically as I have seen so many movies from our country related to that topic, and our govment gives adds on TV against child labour.
All up to u all now..
Give money and say m not doing that as I am paying to them..
As they owned that path...but dont help to them by giving same money for their studies.....
OF COURSE there are rights and wrongs when it comes to child labor:
RK, you may be (not saying you have to be--and maybe you already know about her) interested in Marian Wright Edelman's story. I had to write some lesson plan materials on her. Her thoughts on kids and the abuses they suffer really made me think.
ledefensetech- You are comparing apples to oranges and doubt you have the personal or research experience to be pushing views that may be very controversial even among the most conservative of people. Paper routes for a couple hours a day in America and forced labor in fields or domestic service (as children do not often have 'choice,' as their wills are subjugated by parents or other adults, even if it is 'paid' (and paid poorly, most often)are two distinctly different things.
You obviously don't get my point. Child labor per se is not evil. Physically restraining people and keeping them from finding new and better employment is.
What would you suggest the families of those children do? Pull them out of work? Do you think they will survive without that extra income? Sure it's not ideal, but nobody said the world was fair. Don't pretend like you know the answers, you're from the Midwest. Neither you or I know what it's like to have to make a decision like that, the best thing we can do is make society so that they have the freedom to make things better for themselves. No handouts, no laws, just let people work and save and invest in their futures and that of their children.
The only way to make it fair is to enable people who work and save and invest wisely to be able to do so. If there is an out most people will take it. Why do you think so many inner city kids try out for sports. It's one way out of the grinding poverty and violence of the inner city. Others may choose to succeed academically. My point is that people have a choice. That choice might not be palatable, but they have that option.
I may be from the Midwest, but I never let that get in the way of the scope of my thinking or dreaming,, or what I have studied or encountered--to somewhat prove your point... I have dealt with many people from these so-called 3rd world countries. I've also, as you see, read and researched children's rights issues, at least to some extent.
Children are under the thumbs of their parents, and I reiterate, all do not have choice. I guess it depends on how good the parents are, as to the welfare of children. I have also observed that although there are exceptions to the rule and that some will indeed overcome great odds to succeed, many--most--others are extremely affected by their environment and will not reach their full human potential. Which is a sad waste, as well as cruel abuse.
In the Midwest, do you not have large Catholic, Amish, Mennonite, Share cropping/farming families? The larger the family, the less "farm hand" work to be let out? The larger the family, the more income for the family? Yes, from my understanding that is common.
It is a way of life. It always has been, it always will be.
You'll get no argument from me about the waste and abuse and unfairness of it all. I worked for seven years with kids in the Missouri mental health system. You want to see unfair and evil, try doing that job for a week, much less several years. Realistically there is little we can do as a people that won't make things worse. Individually we can make a difference in the life of one or a few kids, but as a whole? I could rant for hours on the subject, I may even do a page on it sometime.
Still people are resilient and strength can be found in the unlikeliest of places. That's why it's critical for a society to allow upward mobility and allow people to keep what they earn. Anything else is a slippery slope so bondage and forced servitude.
I'm a bit more traveled, my mother is from Mexico originally and we've been to visit family over the years. You just can't imagine the squalor or truly grinding poverty of some places. It's called the Third World for a reason and it's not because people are racist. When you see poor kids with big liquid brown eyes selling gum on the subway to make a little money, you know things are messed up. When the greatest city in your nation is literally surrounded by another city of hovels and hoovervilles, you know you have a problem. My mom's family is one of the lucky ones, they're professionals, solidly middle class. That's why many of the dispossessed come here to work.
One of the pitfalls of child labor laws is that kids no longer have anything to do. Sure they're forced to go to school, but how many really want to be there and how much trouble do they get into because they're somewhere they don't want to be? How many kids experiment with drugs, smoking and alcohol because they're bored? When I lived on base none of the kids I rode the bus with smoked, when we moved out into town all the kids smoked, except my brother and I. When I asked them why they smoked, they said "Mostly because I was bored." What kind of reason is that?
Living in AZ, of course I've seen the situation with the Hispanics (in fact, I've never seen towns so poor or people living so roughly--even in the inner city). I've also worked a bit with inner city kids and with refugees right when I was right out of college...
We agree on the humanity aspect of the situation, I'm certain. I still believe people can make a difference, however. I will always maintain that the difference is education--no matter how that is delivered. Of course there is an individual responsibility aspect and I recognize that, too. But often it is so tied into education... I.E., I will never understand (and this may be controversial or unkind, even, why those of poorer countries have too many children when success depends sociologically and anthropologically speaking on human beings having few children and raising and teaching them well.) Again, I feel it always goes back to education--and with that, though exhausting--I feel people can make a difference.
Um....with Catholics (personal experience)that may have been the case about 150 years ago (?) lol.
And the Amish are an odd story--but yes, it is true of them.
RK! You're on the east coast, are you not? OMG, what is your conception of the Midwest? Omaha, NE has more urban crime and gangs at the point I lived there than I'd say, NYC. I.e, my neighbor was killed in his bed when drug freaks mistook the residence when they were looking for somebody who had screwed them over.
And no--farming is not now and definitely will not be a common way of life very soon. The family farm (which is what that way of life depends on) is dying. And mechanization will will overtake the need for migrant field workers very soon, as well (prevalent in CA and the Southwest).
Yes, RI but from IL.
My room mate Ben O'Sullivan, goes back every summer to work the farms with his other 9 brothers and sisters. My accountants are from him. What about TN? Southern MO? Where there is cotton, there will always be share cropping. Big families are needed to attend the turkey houses & chicken houses for Tyson and Cargill. Are they not? The bigger the family involvement- the more money Ma and Pa make. Yes?
Gangs, will have they or have they not employed children to do their dirty work?
By the way, I'm sorry for your loss.
I suppose, RK... I do see your point. However, I'd maintain (and I certainly DO hope so) that we are evolving toward a more humane way of life...or maybe just different (as I see exploitation of others, perhaps there, too). And I know for certain people in westernized nations have cut way back on the amount of children per family, demonstrating my point.
You must be from Chicago, ?
And no, my Catholic (sorta) family had 3 kids, we were townies and nobody I knew of personally were taken out of school or had to labor in fields all day long. (I'm teasing you.) Some of us did have summer jobs. And I had my first one at the age of 12...but like I say, child labor like the original poster is talking about and what that sort of 'labor' is like in the US are two different things.
And as far as the gangs, yep, that is a children's rights issue.
Very good Lita. Yes, born and bred.
My point is to address child labor, certain issues need to be addressed. Issues like:
1. Are they working to help support the family?
2. What are the child labor laws of that country?
3. Are employers within their rights?
Now, I understand that maybe this post was compassionate plea from apeksha. Okay. On the very bottom on her original post, it is written "please comment".
I guess the questions go back to apeksha. apeksha, what kind of comments were you looking for?
One thing Lita, I know you know that one simple post can not make a difference. To make a difference, do we or do we not have to hash out all the narratives first?
Quite frankly, I'm getting bore with this. If they were just making a compassionate plea- then why put "please comment"?
Okay apeksha- you've got me! Child labor is bad.
Now Lita, let us see if that makes any difference around the world.
RK--Somebody around here on Hubpages who may have been from a so-called 3rd world country--I dunno--was saying that raising awareness and getting people to talk might be a good thing concerning certain issues. They do have a valid point.
I think Apeksha is from India, BTW...and of course we have to hash or discuss, which is what we are doing, , but I guess about differences in perception in the US... LOL And of course your questions and right to ask them are fine and I support them, RK...
Children's rights are somewhat universal in nature, however. Which is why I posted the links that I did. I did research it a bit--don't claim to know everything.
Peace, RK!(South side of Chicago?? lol? Am I right? Sorry, that is just amusing for me...kinda like My Fair Lady, you know? ) Maybe Apsheka went to the store or is sleeping or something (?) She may be back.
Child labor in the west (paper routes, etc. ) is vastly different from in third world countries where children are forced to work long days for next to nothing to help support their families. They don't have a choice in most, if not all, cases.
One way to help stop it is to stop buying from companies you know use child-labor. It's a small step but it is something I guess.
Thanks at least you said that one way to stop that...here all are making me fool....as I rocked solid against this social issue..
This site has suggestions on how to end it.
http://www.freethechildren.com/getinvol … labour.htm
If you think that our participation in YOUR topic, has been purely for the sake of making YOU look foolish; I think you have just done that to yourself. All on your own. Right now. Understand?
What a selfish and foolish notion.
What's with whom? Me?
If you are in fact addressing me, my problem with you is that YOU think our participation is to make you look foolish.
That's a selfish, foolish notion. With that said, it is YOU who is being the fool. Constructive participation is needed to make a difference. None of MY participation was "solely about you". My OWN posts were proposed to bring forth the who, how, what, when and why. When addressing this important topic, you were never the posed CENTER of ATTENTION, now were you? The children were and are. Yes? So, For you to think that you are the Center of Attention, well is........... selfishly foolish. Understand?
The problem with that is that most of those kids' families depend on that income for food. If you stop buying, they get fired and the family starves. How does that help the situation?
You're right my paper route is nothing like working in a factory for hours on end every day. But I got lucky and was born here in the States. The thing to do, if we can is to identify what did we do that made us so wealthy. When we know that we can encourage that around the world. People will have to choose to emulate the things we got right, but it will have to be their decision.
That's a college education talking at the end, I recognize it from the lectures I had in school. Family size doesn't matter. If a family thinks education is important, they'll find a way to get it done. If that means sending one kid until they graduate then that kids supports the second until he graduates and the first two support the third, etc. etc., then that's what they will do.
I do believe people can make a difference, but as individuals, not as a collective. Collectives are so large they tend to run over the "little people" that they supposedly are trying to save. That's why I'm a big fan of personal responsibility and personal ethics.
LOL. No. It's mostly a deeply held personal belief from somebody who is the only member of her family to hold a college, let alone graduate degree, and had to work two jobs getting through--all decided and maintained on her own. And though costly and at times difficult, would do it again in a heartbeat. So you see I am a fan of individual responsibility to some degree, too...
I maintain that both individuals and collectives can make a difference. Sometimes it does take certain individuals to lead, however, you are correct.
And I am talking about humanity from an anthropological standpoint with small families--we were set up (as are many mammals) to have small families. Large families were a cultural response to agricultural agrarian ways of life.
I'm scratching my head in confusion. I haven't read the entire thread because my brain stopped when RK mentioned the Amish and Mennonite communities in the rural midwest. Seeing as I was born and raised in the midwest, and live in the midwest, I know what he's talking about and I'm inclined to agree.
I also think that I'm missing the point here somewhere, though. Are we talking about children learning responsibility (including financial responsibility) or are we talking about indentured servitude? I feel that one is unquestionably wrong, but I can't argue about children working the family farm, either. I believe that's part of what "family" means, and it's a great way for children to learn responsibility.
I sense though that the OP was talking about children working in sweat shops?
Maybe then you should finish reading. You just might find out where I born and bred.
Wow. Were you offended? Amazing.
Whose OP? And no, "sweat shops" weren't mentioned. Nice.
In Illinois. And I didn't need to read back to get that. Currently in Rhode Island. Roommate who goes home to help nine siblings. I caught all that.
Actually, I wasn't, though that suddenly appears to be your intention. I'm not sure what I have said or done to piss you off, RK, but I will back off and not engage you further. I apologize for whatever I said to offend *you*.
Original Poster or Original Post. PP is another common one: Previous poster or previous posters.
I wasn't referring to you at all, but to the person who posted the initial post in this thread. I am assuming that the intention was to ask how we can end children working in sweat shops. Throughout my life I have heard of the children in China being used for child labor in textile mills, etc. I became confused when it appeared that the thread derailed, as appears to be quite common here, and was asking for clarification.
EM- you often think my DIRECT questions are "pissed off" statements. You've gotten yourself in a bad habit of that. NOW I'M PISSED OFF. Got it? I could get flippant with you real quick here. I will ask you to stop contributing to YOUR bad habit. Learn. And actually focus on the questions at hand and leave YOUR personal emotional inscrutability out of my threads.
Understand me? Can you make a ratified conclusion now; as to when I'm pissed and when I'M NOT! Clear enough for you, or shall I continue on with this lesson? By all means, please do make another "emotional" self conclusion embodiment about something I've asked. I'm ready EM. I like addressing people like you in this put upon state-of-being brought about by your mishaps.
I thought you and me had a little discussion about this a while back?
I grew up on an extreme of this issue. I was practically a slave to my adopted family. This was not at all a pleasant experience. On the sunnier side of the street, though, I have developed an exemplary work ethic.
I do not think, nor would I ever condone children being treated as slaves, bellboys, and the like. However, I beleive in instilling values important to one's success in life. I believe kids are lacking the drive to work hard in order to accomplish and succeed. They are now in the mindset of entitlement. Rather than well adjusted young adults, we are raising a generation of over-grown, big babies. Not at all what a society nor an economy needs to thrive.
Thank you Misty, that was my point exactly.
In a sense EM, that's what we're talking about. The thing to remember is that people in these situations are living on the extreme margin. They don't have the luxury to embrace the entitlement mentality shared by many in the West. They have to focus on brass tacks, do what it takes to survive. If that means sending a kid to work in a factory so there is food on the table, so be it.
Many of these families, however, prize education and will send off one lucky kid to school, after which that kid will be able to support the family as they send others to school. In this way the entire family is enriched. Plus they work for it. They don't live under the illusion that someone or something else will take care of them, they take care of themselves. We could do worse than to learn from their example. Adversity usually makes us better people.
Sure, sweat shop is a loaded word. It's used by airhead journalists to say something is bad. It's like the difference between advocate and lobbyist. It's word games to confuse the uninformed.
By most standards in the West many Third World factories are considered to be sweat shops. That could also be because many foreign factories are not allowed to unionize.
"Sweatshops" are a fact of life. As much as certain people would like to pretend they don't exist, they do and they serve a useful function. The fact is the kind of job doesn't matter. What matters is that people are free to make whatever changes they wish to from working hard.
How so? Because some cretin who has no idea what they're talking about considers their intellect to the superior to everyone else and that gives them the right to expound on a particular topic. Have you considered what the alternative is for these families that have to send their kids to work in these types of factories?
Most parents want the best for their kids. They can't always do that, though. Most of these people are very thrifty. There's no entitlement mentality here, no let's share more of someone else's slice of pie. If they can get one kid off to school, that gives them a chance to get all or most of the kids off to school. This helps the entire family.
Without those jobs, where would these people be? That's the second part of the discussion that most people don't think about. They're content to think they have the moral high ground, when they have no concept of what these people go through on a daily basis.
Well, aren`t we lucky to have you to set out minds straight. You are the one who comes off sounding superior.
I know these people don`t have a choice. That does not mean that you don`t try to make their lives better. I don`t know if the solution is to stop buying from those places that get goods from child labour. These children still deserve a childhood. There are some poorer countries that do not depend on children for labour. In the west whenever we allow a company to exploit children just so we can have cheaper clothes we are adding to their problems. Not helping them. In Victorian times you probably would have supported work houses.
I think somebody is making many assumptions and are talking extreme specifics here--and I don't think it would be me, lol.
I take it I am threatening, so I'll take the word "cretin" as a compliment, thanks. Remind me to be much more humble in my expression around certain types of people and pretend I don't have the experience, education and background that I do. Remind me to pretend I came from a middle class background, and its just "my college education talking." Remind me to pretend I didn't work with refugees and other immigrants from all kinds of backgrounds--Sudanese, Russian, Hispanics, Polish, Hmong, etc. Remind me to pretend I didn't have a relationship with somebody from the former USSR, where the countries have experienced a definite poverty due to lack of economic resources. Remind me to pretend I didn't read a lot of Margaret Mead. Remind me that I didn't write and research Children's Rights as a larger part of the Human Rights movement. Remind me to pretend many things, but never call out what I see, as that might be impolite and impudent to certain types.
Oh, well, off to Lala Land! Ciao!
I don't remember having ANY discussions like this with you, RK.
And from this point onward, I will cease to feed the trolls.
Oh NO. NO you don't. Your very first post to me, was a miscommunication on behalf of your personal misjudgment. It's in your posts. Hit the post numbers under your name. It's in there. And are you calling me a troll? Got the balls to carry on with that line of thinking, bring about your own self worth to the forums EM.
You're something else. True egoistical brat aren't ya? Can't admit when your out of line, can you?
That wasn't a personal attack. I'm mostly venting against airhead journalists, the scourge of our time. I suppose I could have been more clear. Sorry.
I still think I have a valid point in asking what the alternatives of these people are. That's the question nobody seems to ask. It's intensely frustrating to see these people come up with simplistic solutions and force their solutions down everyone else's throat. As an example, we've tried welfare in this country for almost 50 years now and all we've succeeded in doing is hollowing out our once great cities. Who in their right mind wants to live in the Projects? It's an idea that failed, but we still live with it because it's "politically unfeasible" to end the program.
UW, how do you know better than these people what they need? I surely don't. Only someone who is in that situation knows what they need to do. The best thing we can do for them is eliminate any obstructions to them earning, saving and investing what wealth they can accumulate and not disbarring anyone from bettering themselves due to class, race, creed, etc.
LOL ledefensetech, Ya cannot win. I just quit a job working for the press last October.
It's OK! We all have our take on these matters--I don't think anybody has all the answers.
Well, RK... If you are talking about people from the West side of Chicago--OH, what's wrong is just too much and too numerous to mention (!)
If you are talking about people from Western nations, "we all have our take on these matters."
Well nobody said the path to enlightenment would be easy. At least I know pride is my downfall. I only need life to kick me once or twice in the face to get the message. Really.
You're correct I should blame the idea not the people. Still you have to admit there's a lot of condensation in the press today. One of the more sickening things is the way they fawn over Obama. The problem is not that he was their pick for President and he won, I could care less, I don't vote.
The problem is that we are facing major problems in this country and the press seems to be abandoning it's duty to put this out to public discussion. What I don't see is the press asking, "What happens if these plans don't work?" At the very least they should be asking those questions so that people aren't taken completely by surprise.
Before too much longer we may have to make the same sorts of decisions people in Third World countries have to make every day.
You have to see if plans do work first before abandoning them.
The ways of the Reaganites and the Bushes did not work. What do you suggest?
Oh, you'll not like this answer then. Bush and Regan did not go far enough. Regan is widely credited, and reviled for, his supposed cutting of welfare funds. The truth is that he did no such thing. Oh sure, he shuffled things around and looked busy, but in reality things didn't change until Gingrich forced Clinton to enact welfare reform.
Let's look at the bailouts for instance, we're giving money to people who gambled during the boom and lost. What do you think they're going to do with our money? They'll do the same thing they did with their investor's money. Only now it will be worse. They will have gotten used to bailouts and will expect it to happen again when they mess up. Austrian economists call that moral hazard.
But that's not the worst part. The Treasury doesn't have this money just lying around. The sell the debt. The have done that for almost 30 years now. Only now the foreigners aren't cooperating. They fear, rightly, that they won't get their money back. So now the Fed is just printing money. Soon enough we'll see the results of that in higher prices. If you think things are bad now, wait until that happens. We're in effect making things harder for our kids and borrowing against their future. I don't think they'll thank us when those chickens come home to roost.
Government should have no role in business whatsoever. No government owned monopoly has ever been able to last. Leave us alone and let us manage our own lives. Surely that's not too much to ask of our elected representatives?
Tell me about it. I think my township's black population is less than 5%.
Nothing like studying people's stares to past the time.
At least where my parents reside now, gains them monetary respect. When that is the case, everyone keeps their mouths shut. You know what I mean?
Hey Lita, gotta go. It's been nice conversing with you. It's crunch time for me, so I won't be around much 'til after the 2nd.
Where do you think AIG and Chrysler got their bailout money from? They contributed to the politicians campaigns in return for favors. If the government were completely out of the picture AIG and Chrysler wouldn't exist at this moment. Sure there would be some pain as the markets adjusted, but people would find other employment in other areas and we'd not be nursemaid to a failed company. That's something government doesn't have to worry about. If they screw up they can always take more money from their subjects.
In business you have to be careful and weigh your actions carefully or else you're no longer in business.
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couples? It seems that in this strongly pronatalist society, there is still the underlying premise, the more, the better. People are continuously exhorted to have children by their parents, friends, religion,...
by Grace Marguerite Williams4 months ago
Why are so many people from large families so defensive & go into attack mode when othersrightfully decry the former's abysmal socioeconomic & familial conditions of living on top of each other, constant...
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