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2016 Update and HubPro Premium

  1. Paul Edmondson profile image
    99
    Paul Edmondsonposted 10 months ago

    http://blog.hubpages.com/2017/01/26/201 … o-premium/

    A post to check out if you haven't seen it.

    1. Ashish Dadgaa profile image63
      Ashish Dadgaaposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      @Paul Edmondson,

      It would be great step to make our HubPages community stronger and powerful.

      The way you guys are working hard, I can surely see the bright future of HubPages. Thank you so much for giving ur hope for this website.

      Bless you.

    2. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image99
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Paul, I want to thank you and the team for having the foresight and determination to break HP up into separate sites.  In fact, I think doing this saved all of us.

      I love to write, and, in fact, am a retired Language Arts teacher.  However, I am not so egotistic as to believe that my work is so good that it does not need edits.  In fact, I love the edits.  Your people have often come up with things that have made my work much more readable.  Once in awhile they slip up, but when I tell you guys about it, we work together to make the corrections.

      So, how successful has this change been for me?  Well, I can tell you without hesitation that 2016 has been the best year I've ever had since starting with HP 5 years ago.  Furthermore, this month has been a total surprise because although my articles are seasonal in nature, January has turned out to be one of the best months I've ever had.

      It's the best of all worlds for me because what I write helps my readers, lets my creative juices flow and also makes me some money...all while I'm sitting in my PJ's at my home computer.

      Thanks to all of you on the team for giving me this opportunity and here's to an even better 2017.

    3. ChitrangadaSharan profile image58
      ChitrangadaSharanposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Thanks for the detailed information!

    4. profile image60
      Cunyenposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      I'm new here in this hub, so I must still a lot of to learn n get many imformations how to get opportunities in making some money

    5. peachpurple profile image81
      peachpurpleposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      thanks very much for the update

    6. PegCole17 profile image97
      PegCole17posted 9 months agoin reply to this

      I'm grateful for the editorial help although I opted out of HubPro Premium initially. I want to maintain the deciding vote when it comes to changes made on my work. That seems justified in light of the continued errors we are seeing with the Editbot.
      For example, one of the comments on my hub was corrected when the word "because" was spelled in error "becasue." That was fine. However, in the same comment the bot overlooked the previous sentence where the word "decision" remains as it was typed, "dicision".
      These are not the only instances where the bot corrected one misspelling and left other errors. Often it changes the word "and" to "to" making the sentence ungrammatical, while leaving other words misspelled.
      This gives me reason to question the effectiveness of the process.

      http://usercontent2.hubstatic.com/13387943.jpg


      http://usercontent2.hubstatic.com/13387947.jpg

      1. Marie Flint profile image91
        Marie Flintposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        I agree, Peg. I've seen things changed that made the meaning senseless. The only types of edits I've seen on my work are: 1) 1970's to 1970s, e.g. 2) snow plow to snowplow, e.g. and an inadvertent comma.

        There are edits on comments, over which I have no control unless I deny the comment, even if the message is worthwhile. So, maybe Hub Pages team needs to remind fellow hubbers that edits apply to comments, too, and to be more mindful when making them.

        At first, I kind of resented changes to my hubs, but because I'm not really making any money here, I don't really care now. If an editor feels he or she can vastly improve a hub of mine that will actually draw traffic, I'm all for it.

        I appreciate a well written article and, as a former English major, I rather resent the slaughtering the English language is receiving today on the internet, but then supposedly a new, international language will emerge (some have speculated a combination of English and Spanish).

        Time will tell. Change is part of life.

    7. Maria Dorland profile image87
      Maria Dorlandposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      I am very happy with Hubpages. Big Thanks from me!

      I see mixed feelings in the comments, though...maybe there should be an option for the writers to decide if they would like their hubs to be edited or not.

    8. TheShadowSpecter profile image90
      TheShadowSpecterposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Is this editing service mainly to catch typographical errors that we Hubbers miss upon publishing our HupPages articles?

      1. Marie Flint profile image91
        Marie Flintposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        Cute, Shadow. Hup[b]Pages. I'm not on the HP team, but from my experience, the service attempts to catch grammatical errors as well. You have to watch out, though, because sometimes the HubPro editbot doesn't make sense. Whenever there's a problem, contact the team. I find emails more effective than posting in the forum.

    9. RachaelLefler profile image98
      RachaelLeflerposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      I have some things that are ad-blocked due to sensitive content or profanity. I accept the tradeoff loss of revenue for the freedom of speech. Should I move profane content? Will it be censored? Will my "fucks" be replaced with "f*ck"? I think that style of censorship is lame. I mean, I am a movie critic. Sometimes you just have to cuss.

      1. RachaelLefler profile image98
        RachaelLeflerposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        I could probably make WAY more money and have WAY more fun writing for a comedy site where cussing and sexual humor is not only allowed, but in the job description. Just sayin'. Google acts like everyone is some kind of crazy Puritan. I don't get it.

        1. Will Apse profile image94
          Will Apseposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          Google search and Google Adsense are separate entities within Alphabet Inc. Google search will cater to just about any taste that you care to name. Adsense is driven by the needs of advertisers and the majority do not want their ads on pages that are not fit for family consumption.

          1. RachaelLefler profile image98
            RachaelLeflerposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            But clearly raunchy comedy has big money-making potential within a niche. Are not adults part of the family? What about teenagers? The term "family friendly" is stupid.

            1. makingamark profile image64
              makingamarkposted 9 months agoin reply to this

              Rachael - if you want to be on a site which uses Google AdSense, then you need to abide by the rules for what Google AdSense and the hosts thinks is reasonable for HubPages

              You can think what you like - but if you want to earn money through adverts then you better stick to the rules.

              Why not create your own website and see how well you do with your views?  If your thinking is correct you should make a mint. Not quite what from though.....

            2. Marisa Wright profile image97
              Marisa Wrightposted 9 months agoin reply to this

              Of course it does.  But you need to have that argument with Adsense, not with HubPages. 

              If HubPages ever lost its Adsense account,the site would have to close down - it's too dependent on Adsense for its income.  So HubPages is extra vigilant about applying Adsense rules, and you can't blame them for that.  Other rev-sharing sites have had their Adsense account suspended because one member broke the rules, so it can happen.

              If you want to risk your Adsense account on your own site, go for it.  You may very well find that you get away with it.  However, you have no right to risk the Adsense accounts of HubPages or your fellow Hubbers.  It's that simple.

              1. RachaelLefler profile image98
                RachaelLeflerposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                "But you need to have that argument with Adsense, not with HubPages.  " But my original fear was that HubPages is getting more trigger-happy with censorship of Pages because of Google's ad policy.
                "if you want to be on a site which uses Google AdSense, then you need to abide by the rules for what Google AdSense and the hosts thinks is reasonable" Sure but that doesn't mean I have to agree with all their policies or philosophies. I reallyshould take my content elsewhere.

                1. Marisa Wright profile image97
                  Marisa Wrightposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                  Personally, I think HubPages has always been excessively cautious -- but like I said, I can understand, given how important it is to them.  I think since Wizzley had their account suspended due to ONE member uploading ONE thing that broke the rules, they've been extra-cautious.

                  You are certainly entitled to voice your opinion, I guess we were just pointing out that it achieves nothing other than getting it off your chest.

                  1. RachaelLefler profile image98
                    RachaelLeflerposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                    They can be excessively cautious and block ads, I just don't want them to take down anything, and I think this new policy would be an excuse to get rid of or excessively change your content, even if you leave it up but with ads disabled.

                  2. RachaelLefler profile image98
                    RachaelLeflerposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                    And another thing I really want is to be told what to change if I do decide to fix it and if I do want to self-censor in order to get revenue back. For example, my recent "Why Season 20 of South Park Was Bad" Was ad-disabled and I have no idea why really, I'm not sure what language specifically in it (used as a direct quote from the show for the purposes of criticism) offended censorbot. And I have no way at all of asking that question and getting an answer from HP staff. The editors make changes without explanation, and ads get disabled without reasons given. There needs to be more communication. This is like being a gardener and having the owner of the manor burn down any shrubbery he doesn't like, without telling you what specifically he didn't like about it.

    10. TessSchlesinger profile image95
      TessSchlesingerposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      I am totally impressed with the job HP is doing. I think the editing is awesome and I am deeply greateful for it. I love the niche sites and have thought for years that is the way to go.

    11. Kenna McHugh profile image82
      Kenna McHughposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      I have been with HP since its inception. At the time editors worked closely with the bloggers. The editor, who worked with me, seemed like we were in the same room, very hands on and demanding. I liked it and profited from the experience. My most popular blog http://hubpages.com/business/I_want_to_ … lent_Agent was a subject I knew nothing about at the time (being an agent), but the editor encouraged me to write it. I did.  The piece is still doing well.  You will notice the blog is still in the original format. I only added the photo July 2016.  Other blogs we worked on are my highest views and money earned, so I know it works.

      Teamwork is essential for success when it comes to writer and editor. I look forward to going back to what HP used to do. 

      My one question about the Premium Editing is: Will this cost me anything?

      1. makingamark profile image64
        makingamarkposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        Nothing on HubPages is "blogging". Blogging is something quite quite different.

        1. Kenna McHugh profile image82
          Kenna McHughposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          Okay. Thanks for letting me know.

          1. RachaelLefler profile image98
            RachaelLeflerposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            People insist on that but it totally fits the definition of blogging. This site just wants to be more than that because they see blogging as inferior work quality-wise. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. The term "blog" doesn't really deserve a negative stereotype. But I guess what they mean is HP articles should be audience-focused, not just the author's personal journal.

            1. Kenna McHugh profile image82
              Kenna McHughposted 9 months agoin reply to this

              Thank you for the clarification. : )

              1. Marisa Wright profile image97
                Marisa Wrightposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                I think Rachael is misunderstanding. 

                There are two definitions of blogging. Even dictionaries disagree what the definition is, but if you ask a professional blogger or a freelance writer and they'll tell you there is a very clear distinction in practice.  HubPages is not and never will be blogging.

                Firstly, HubPages is a place to write long, magazine-quality articles which must include images, whereas blog posts are shorter and may be text only or image only.   This line is becoming blurred, because some bloggers are now writing longer, more richly illustrated blog posts - but then, Hubs are getting much longer too.

                Secondly, there's no way for an author to form a connection with their readers on HubPages.  Followers on HubPages are fellow writers, not readers.  For readers, there's no way to be notified when a writer posts a new piece.  There's no way for us to identify our readers, e.g. by asking them to sign up for an email list.  We can't promote ourselves to our readers. The vast majority of our readers are people who find ONE of our Hubs via Google, read it, and leave, with no awareness of who wrote it.

            2. makingamark profile image64
              makingamarkposted 9 months agoin reply to this

              Rachel - as somebody whose main blog regularly gets independently rated as a top art blog and has received in excess of 10.5 million page views to date I feel qualified to comment on "what is blogging"

              For me - blogging is
              * independent (unless commercially funded - and frankly I don't count those as blogs);
              * it's the voice and opinion of an individual (unlike commercial blogs which are often run by a team)
              * who attracts followers over time  via bookmark/email of feedreader subscription/whatever
              * It's one site only (i.e. one domain - which is controlled by the blogger)
              * with lots of blog posts (my main one has well in excess of 3,000 posts)
              * successful ones tend to be very focused on one topic i.e. they are the ORIGINAL niche site which updates on a regular basis (I write art ones)
              * blog posts can be short - but they can also be long. All the blogs that I know which are the same age or older than mine (mine's now 11 years old) write long posts. I'm a fan of long posts - and so are my fans!
              * I get to decide which other posts to link to
              * I can link to as many other posts and/or websites as I like - and still gets lots of traffic!
              * old posts are an asset - so long as you make them accessible - because unless they are very topical they never ever go out of date and people continue to visit them, continue to like the posts and continue to join up as followers! smile

              ....and that's why I like blogging - and that's why blogging works.

              No way can HubPages articles be described as blogging

              1. DzyMsLizzy profile image96
                DzyMsLizzyposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                Hub Page is not a blogging site, and Hub Pages itself says so.  It has never been a blogging site.

                I don't know why there are so many writers here who insist on saying that they 'blog' here. 

                Hub Pages is more like an online magazine, or e-zine if you prefer, with lots of varied, rich, content by an assortment of different authors.  Naturally, with the number of writers here, the site is far larger than any print media magazine, as well as less focused.

                That is why the new niche sites are such a good idea; they are like individual magazines, each with their own area of interest, and merely owned by the same corporation, just as many print magazines may have the same ownership, but different magazines under that umbrella.

      2. Christy Kirwan profile image
        100
        Christy Kirwanposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        Kenna, all HubPages editing services are 100% free. smile

  2. Luke Holm profile image94
    Luke Holmposted 10 months ago

    Glad to hear HubPages still has active and passionate admin.  Keep up the good work.

  3. Solaras profile image98
    Solarasposted 10 months ago

    Thank you for all you guys do!

  4. Nell Rose profile image94
    Nell Roseposted 10 months ago

    I for one love the fact that we get professional editing from you guys. In every single part of the writing process whether on a site or writing a book editing is essential, so thanks for all your hard work! smile

  5. WryLilt profile image85
    WryLiltposted 10 months ago

    I have a question (probably asked before). How does high level editing impact on the rights to our own work?

    1. Paul Edmondson profile image
      99
      Paul Edmondsonposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Nothing's changed. Anything we add, the author can use.

      1. WryLilt profile image85
        WryLiltposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        Ok, thank you smile

  6. janshares profile image96
    jansharesposted 9 months ago

    Paul, I think editing for HP is great. But I have a question about editing creative writing, particularly poetry. Since all hubs will now be subject to editing, how might that impact creative license when meaning or intent of the writer is changed by an editor? In general, what is your vision for poetry remaining on the site?

    1. ChitrangadaSharan profile image58
      ChitrangadaSharanposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      I agree with you and I have the same question, though I don't have many poetry hubs.

    2. Paul Edmondson profile image
      99
      Paul Edmondsonposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      All articles are already eligible for basic edits. This change only affects Premium edits.

      Our policy with creative writing and poems is to leave the art as is with exception of obvious errors.

      1. janshares profile image96
        jansharesposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        Appreciate your reply, thanks.

      2. DzyMsLizzy profile image96
        DzyMsLizzyposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        And how do you define an "obvious error" in a poem?  Could it not be a deliberate misspelling, for example, on the part of the author, to be humorous and/or force a rhyme, as other, more famous poets have done now and again?
        Ditto for things not quite grammatically correct; it may be done for the "flavor" of the piece, particularly if there is a character through whom the poem is speaking...

        1. janshares profile image96
          jansharesposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          +1

  7. Will Apse profile image94
    Will Apseposted 9 months ago

    HP edits have been pretty reasonable on my pages so I am not going to complain. At the same time, the editors two years of experience is not a huge amount and I would recommend a measure of humility with the willingness to listen and learn, front and center. One of the few ways that HP could fail now is by becoming too tyrannical and freezing out writers who care about their work.

    1. Paul Edmondson profile image
      99
      Paul Edmondsonposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      It does need to be a balance. Editors aren't perfect, but in balance when they pair up with a Hubber the results are typically a significant improvement:

      If the spirit is to improve the reading experience between the author and editor we should be in good shape.

      1. Sherry Hewins profile image99
        Sherry Hewinsposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        I have only had one experience with HubPro Premium. It was a good experience. The editor kept me informed of what she was doing, and took my concerns into consideration. It felt very collaborative, and improvements were made to the structure and look of the hub.

        My views took a severe downturn immediately after editing, and it's hard not to blame that on the editing. The hub was at an all-time high just before though. It was subsequently move to a niche site, and now is doing better than ever.

        All-in all, I would be happy to have another hub chosen for the premium edit.

    2. EricDockett profile image100
      EricDockettposted 9 months ago

      I don't think I will ever be comfortable with editors messing with my work, but it is hard to argue with the positive direction HP is going in these days. As long as it is truly a collaborative effort where the opinions of the author are respected I can be okay with it.

      And thanks Paul and the rest of the HP Team. The past year has been by far the best since I have been around here.

    3. wilderness profile image100
      wildernessposted 9 months ago

      Yes, 2016 was a phenomenal year for all of us and the HP team has earned a tremendous "Thank You!" from the hubbers here.

      But I'm a little disappointed in the Premium edit changes - it likely means that my own hubs will have to wait longer to receive that service. big_smile  I've been extremely please with the results so far and want more of them!

    4. Chriswillman90 profile image99
      Chriswillman90posted 9 months ago

      The fact that many hubbers are also earning hundreds to thousands in payouts again is a huge boost to Hubpages, the niche sites, and the writers of course.

      It only encourages more quality content, stronger editing practices, and a greater sense of motivation to push things forward. It's nice to see great authors get rewarded again for their efforts.

    5. DzyMsLizzy profile image96
      DzyMsLizzyposted 9 months ago

      I am seeing better earnings since the niche sites came into play.

      That said, "hundreds or even thousands???"  Very few, I'll wager.  At this point, it looks as if I may make payout threshold every two months, instead of just twice a year, or rarely, quarterly.'

      I look forward to reaching the goal of monthly payouts for now.

    6. Paul Edmondson profile image
      99
      Paul Edmondsonposted 9 months ago

      We are going to do a few case studies and highlight the topics, the depth of writing and the earnings. There are many producing a nice risidual income and they have grown substantially in the last year.

      @Wilderness. I wish we could go faster. The processes are still improving and we will hire more editors.

      1. Bedbugabscond profile image99
        Bedbugabscondposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        I believe you!!!!! My choice to believe in you was made 4 years ago. It has not been an easy 4 years. This past year I felt lots of personal drag (writers block and all that). Yet, you continue to work hard to inspire us to push ourselves harder.

        I can not claim to be the success that I want to be. But that is OK.

        I do believe that you have served us very well, navigating though the zoo attack, and the economy, with us in tow. I have learned a great deal through Hubpages. I have been able to apply that to other arenas, too.

        I still have much to learn, and really really really really appreciate the editing service! With all of that said, I am thrilled with my earnings. I am not in the thousands, but I can see the potential reality for that  if I master the self-discipline and self-confidence that every internet writer needs.

        Thank you Mr. Edmondson and the enter Hubpages team!

    7. Will Apse profile image94
      Will Apseposted 9 months ago

      My worry is that while writers obviously have a lot gripes in regard to the editing they are not emerging in this thread.

      I reckon staff here take feedback seriously (to their credit) but I am also starting to think that writers feel a little intimidated or they would be here complaining.

      Here are a few gripes from memory (correct me if I am wrong):

      Jean Bakula reckons one of her pages was not moved to a niche because of a semi colon.
      Kylyssa is complaining in another thread about weird formatting on her page.
      I have an editor telling me to explain why products on my page are 'spectacular' (I think the pros and cons are enough).

      Seems to me that the eds still have stuff to learn.

      So I am encouraging writers to be more forthright. Apart from anything else it would save me the trouble of carrying the negative side of stuff, lol. It would also help to keep the forums from ossifying.

      1. Kylyssa profile image97
        Kylyssaposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        I wasn't complaining here because my voice is not one they'd hear and because they seem to have a very vague understanding of copyright laws or they simply don't think they apply to them. After two years of trying to communicate with them as if they were a normal publisher, I've learned there's seldom any point to it. But I still really wish they'd listen because I really like the core of HubPages and I hate seeing businesses destroy themselves with really obvious mistakes.

        They seem to think they can legally give me the non-exclusive right to use the words of my readers without their permission and that they can legally edit comments any way they want without using a disclaimer stating that by commenting users are waiving their right to copyright and are licensing HubPages and the hub authors the nonexclusive right to use their comments.

        The official reply to my questions about how they are abusing reader comments shows they have no understanding of what they are doing from a legal standpoint, only that they can tell it makes me feel uncomfortable. Yes, violating other peoples' copyrights makes me feel uncomfortable and it should make them feel uncomfortable, too.

        I've also never had a professional editor from any company but Hubpages add grammar or stylistic errors to my articles or editorials. One HubPages editor also literally added back in a heading the editor who'd previously edited my hub had taken out. The second editor claimed (and rightfully so) that she was improving the chances of my hub getting found online. The first HubPages editor I had experience with did not know that instructions on tutorials are read from left to right, top to bottom and wanted to know what order the steps to the tutorial went in, even though the step-by-step photos showing the craft item getting incrementally more and more done were in order already. The emails from that editor were full of grammar errors. It didn't give me confidence in her editing skills.

        I've had several bad experiences and several good experiences with HubPages editors. I've had no bad editing experiences with any other company or editor in about twenty-five years of working with editors in the print world and online. I have great confidence in the HubPages editors who communicate like professionals, but there's no knowing if I'll get one of them or not.

      2. Titen-Sxull profile image91
        Titen-Sxullposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        Thank you for this post.

        I've been lurking in this forum for about an hour now trying to formulate into words why this whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth as a long time member of hubpages (6+ years).

        The only thing I can come up with is that it wreaks of elitism.

        I don't use hubpages to make money. I disable ads on as much of my content as I can. I came here for community engagement and to express my viewpoint in a place where I felt I could reach more people than a personal blog. My intent was never to create "professional" content but merely content that was interesting, intriguing or intellectually sound enough to garner a reaction and get people thinking.

        But, when I see things like this:

        "If you are firmly against having your work professionally edited, HubPages is likely no longer the best home for that content. We recommend removing your articles and republishing on a website or blog you own."

        It makes me immediately want to pull up stakes and do exactly as told here. Why should I remain with the hubpages community if they do not want independently created content but instead want a tightly edited conformist culture of "professionalism"? I didn't come to hubpages to please the corporate overlords that run the site or let them mess with my spelling and punctuation.

        The other day a guest user commented on one of my hubs and before I could do anything I saw that an admin had approved the comment. Now I'm not even in control of a random guest users comment on my hubs? And now mandatory professional editing?

        I can appreciate and understand that for people who use hubpages for an income standards like this are likely a huge boon and it's a chance for them to improve as writers. I'm sure that for a lot of people these changes are positive but to me they seem intrusive and unwelcoming especially considering the time and energy it will take to remove my content and put it on a separate blog just to avoid these changes.

    8. Organised Kaos profile image97
      Organised Kaosposted 9 months ago

      You have edited out my hubs and removed boxes. Ive been doing my law degree last year and you wrecked my hubs - you've removed my selling boxes how dare you!. Can a manager contact me

      Stupid hub pages stole nearly $300 a month

    9. Rochelle Frank profile image96
      Rochelle Frankposted 9 months ago

      Let me add my thanks. A lot of things( earnings, views, hub quality) have improved for me, and I appreciate the work that is being done.

    10. Will Apse profile image94
      Will Apseposted 9 months ago

      That's that, then. Processing time for what is a major change, over.

      We will probaly never know what those sensitive souls who cannot bear other peoples' fingerprints on their work thought about this. Are they already gone? Going? Or have they been won over to editing?

      And what is this move all about? Is HP desperate for pages and intend to carve them out of the potentially good but presently flawed back catalog?

      Or is this the beginning of the end of the whole crowd-sourced notion with a shift towards a standard professional model?

      If editors are rewriting everything why don't they just write the stuff straight off?

      Unpredictable environments can be unsettling.

      For what it's worth, I reckon HP should have tried a bit more persuasion on this issue. An email saying 'we like your page but it is not eligible to be moved to (or kept on) a niche without full editing' would probably have reeled in a few of the hold outs. Exemplary examples of edited pages might have helped.

      1. Solaras profile image98
        Solarasposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        Some are gone; having decided that working on their own sites is more profitable, while others feel the need to be creative without the "unfeatured for traffic" or "quality" feature to frustrate them. I think that was what pissed people off the most.  Editing just added insult to injury.

        I disagree that one Amazon capsule per page is enough. It is rarely a one size fits all world.  That is something for staff to discuss, and come up with a reasonable framework that is not as rigid as some writers have experienced.  It is shocking to see that someone making sales had all of their sales capsules removed.  Just stupid really.

        I have found that working on my own site, with the same number of articles posted gets 1/4 traffic of HP and 1/4 earnings at best. Perhaps if my own site had 100 more pages it would do better; my fellow HP writers take care of new content and bulk, and I appreciate that. Heading off into the sunset on your own is not all it's cracked up to be, especially if you are in a crowded market.

        1. makingamark profile image64
          makingamarkposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          I disagree

          I'm now getting ten times the traffic ion sites which now host my ex-Hubs. Plus Amazon sales have steadily increased over time and now looking very respectable.

          Thing is my websites are big and extremely focused on niche topics which don't have huge competition - and the hubs were always written in "groups" so making it easy to do the transfer.

          I'm guessing that won't apply to a lot of people - in which case what Solaras says is probably very true.

          If you write in an area where there's lots of competition I definitely wouldn't waste my time going it alone.

          So bottom line it all boils down to traffic and what you can do that makes your content stand out from a not too crowded bit of the internet

    11. Will Apse profile image94
      Will Apseposted 9 months ago

      As long as the eds are sensible enough to realize that they have still have stuff to learn, it should work out.

      Right now, they are a mixed bag, as you say.

      It also helps if writers realize they have stuff to learn as well, of course. I certainly do, lol.

      1. makingamark profile image64
        makingamarkposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        Well the one who has just made a pig's ear of one of my art hubs certainly didn't even appreciate the basic purpose of the hub.

        Knowing about language isn't enough to do a decent edit.

    12. TeriSilver profile image98
      TeriSilverposted 9 months ago

      I appreciate editors who know how to fix grammar and word usage errors; things of that nature.  I have always hoped that the process for anything else could be between writer and editor so that the content's intent is not changed to suit a proofreader's viewpoint.  That is very important; especially with content that said-editor knows very little about. The communication process between writer and editor is imperative in this matter; it is not an "us versus them" situation.  The site has improved dramatically over the last several years; thank you, HP, for all you do.

    13. makingamark profile image64
      makingamarkposted 9 months ago

      Will commented on whether hubbers are feeling intimidated in this thread about commenting about things they're not happy with.... (see http://hubpages.com/community/forum/139 … ost2868128 )

      So here goes. I've just gone back and reviewed the abortion committed by a "HubPro" edit on one of my hubs.

      It's about the series of grain stack paintings painted by Monet. http://hubpages.com/art/monet-haystacks

      Here's one example (there were more) of the way in which I am NOT prepared to accept edits made by ignorant and incompetent Editors

      The hub now FINISHES with this module

      About Monet's iconic Series of Paintings
      The following are all books which, to a greater or lesser extent, provide detailed information about the Haystack series


      AND THE BOOKS (AMAZON) HAVE ALL BEEN REMOVED! 
      Talk about a modular equivalent of the dangling participle!

      The so-called "Editor" very obviously:
      * hasn't got a clue how to finish a hub!
      * knows nothing about the books (whereas I do - I own both the books removed) - or else they wouldn't have removed them (I'm fine with somebody telling me to improve the text accompanying a book (if they know what they're talking about) - I'm NOT OK with somebody just creating a total nonsense!)

      I also can't see how to reinstate the content that the Editor messed with and shouldn't have.

      I thought there was supposed to be a simple way of amending mistakes made by HubPro Editors. If there is I can't see it.

      I have a very simple rule.
      HubPages messes with my content, copyright and expertise and they lose MY CONTENT. 
      Right now I'm feeling like taking a day out of what I had planned to take archive copies of all my hubs and then to start deleting them all. That's because I'm certainly not putting up with any more editing like that of the HubPro edit I've experienced.  There's no way those sort of mistakes are going under my name.

      This Monet hub will in future be seen on a new "resources for artists" website I'm creating about various technical aspects of creating art - to illustrate how painters paint in series. I wasn't planning on moving it yet but if HubPro messes with my content that's what will happen.

      I'm very happy with the success of my new mega niche websites (one of them is now the top rated website in the world for its topic and gets between 2-3k pageviews per day from Google and runs at around 6% bounce rate). They have comprehensively proved to me that creating high quality niche websites is certainly the way forward - but ONLY if you are in control of your own content.

    14. Robert Kernodle profile image92
      Robert Kernodleposted 9 months ago

      Sorry, but I do NOT like this idea of having someone add information or photos that I did not originally include in a hub without any consultation or agreement.

      If I am understanding this correctly, then this could lead me to delete all my hubs and stop writing here.

      If I am misunderstanding, and if I could have some say in what additional material might be added, then I might be more favorable.

      But just padding my hub (that I have already taken great pains to get exactly the way I want) with additional material that I have not had a hand in incorporating is NOT setting well with me at all.  The hub would, then, cease to be authentically by my hand.

      1. Robin profile image
        97
        Robinposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        Before we begin editing, Premium editors always email authors with their thoughts on the article and changes that they think will improve the article for readers.  We do everything in our power to collaborate with authors and most authors are very happy with the communication and the collaboration.  smile

        1. makingamark profile image64
          makingamarkposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          That did NOT happen to my hub.  There was no consultation and no collaboration! 

          The hub has been changed and I was sent an email about the changes made. I see no way of undoing them.

          I'm very unhappy about the way HubPro works - especially given the fact the hub is listed on the internet under my name as if I agreed with what haas been done.

          I've now UNPUBLISHED the Hub that has been affected.
          The content has been removed and the Hub has been DELETED.

          1. Robin profile image
            97
            Robinposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            I don't have any record of HubPro Premium editing your article or even having your articles edited with HubPro Basic.  Your articles have been snipped for spammy elements.  When we add content we email authors.  I understand the apprehension if you haven't been through the process.

            1. makingamark profile image64
              makingamarkposted 9 months agoin reply to this

              Well if you look at the hub which I have deleted I can show you. It's still on your system as the 24 hours are not yet up.

              I've now undeleted it so I suggest you take a look

              I've had the simple Hub Pro Basic edits before and I'd say 95% of those have been OK.

              This recent edit was WAY WAY beyond a Hub Pro Basic edit. 

              Plus I never ever received an email telling me about the edits which were IMPOSED without any reference to me.

              Describing the edits as snips for spammy elements is just plain incorrect.  I think there was JUST ONE LINK in a module of information links which had converted to a spammy link (under your brand new definition) and I deleted that as I have done recently on other hubs when notified.

              However that's no good reason to delete an entire module of links for one spammy link that was nothing to do with me because if you check your records you will know I've not edited that hub since it arrived at HubPages.

              Or two books which were wholly relevant to the hub given they contained records of the stacks.

              Or changing the introduction/front end which did not need changing so that it has now created duplication in the first 200 words which did not exist previously

              Do you want me to go on? I still have my original Squidoo Archive file to compare it with if you can't access the changes.

              Interestingly the PINK BOXES of removed content disappeared as soon I raised the matter via email and posted in this forum.....

              It just seems to me that somebody has not been doing their job properly and has totally undermined my trust in HubPages as a result.

      2. DzyMsLizzy profile image96
        DzyMsLizzyposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        I understand exactly what you mean.

        There is editing that serves a useful purpose, and then  there is editing that merely reflects the editor's viewpoint of how they would have written the article.

        In a college creative writing class, I recall an instructor suggesting re-wording a poem I had submitted, and the words were his, not mine; to have added those, it would have been his poem, not mine, as it did not sound like my style of poetry writing.

        I responded by turning in a piece that read as follows:

        "I work long and hard to birth my poems.  Who would edit them dismembers my children."

        Yes, it was an over-the top, overly dramatic, metaphor, but it got my point across.  lol

    15. Chriswillman90 profile image99
      Chriswillman90posted 9 months ago

      Some of you writers need to get off your high horses and get back to reality. Yes I understand how much your articles mean to you since most writers are pretentious as hell afterall, but this is not the end of the world. I know you're able to change back edited articles if you don't agree with something and you can always communicate with editors if something doesn't sit well.

      I realize not every edit will be to your liking but I for one am glad the site is pushing forward to give the public the most organized, professional content on the web that just might get you paid. This war against the editors needs to stop and again some of you really need to relax.

    16. Robert Kernodle profile image92
      Robert Kernodleposted 9 months ago

      There is no "war against the editors" here.  There is just a basic request for respecting the writer.  I, for one, do not want to be relegated to the position of an employee of HubPages, and taking control of  articles in such a bold way is precisely what this does.  I did NOT agree to this originally.   

      It boils down to respecting an implied agreement, and this does NOT, in my judgment, respect that implied agreement.

      You don't just add stuff without giving somebody a choice.  Correct my spelling, yes, thanks for that.  Correct my bad grammar, great.  Tell me about broken links, sure, I'll try to fix them.   Photo quality stinks?  Okay, I'll try to find a better photo.

      But add material, rearrange the appearance, re-fabricate the thing, under my name?  Nope.  I did NOT agree to that at the start, and I do NOT agree with that now.

      How's about I pop over to your house or apartment and repaint your walls a color that I think will make it sell or rent better, when it comes on the market again?

      1. makingamark profile image64
        makingamarkposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        Robert "gets it" precisely!

        It's my content, my copyright and my name - and that means changes can ONLY be made with my permission and NOT made if I don't like them.

        That's why my inclination at present is to remove ALL content from HubPages.

        I've already unpublished the Hub which was edited. I've just archived the content and stats and search words and have now DELETED THE HUB - along with the Hub I made about Monet's series of paintings of Rouen Cathedral.

        They're a pair, the one goes, they both go. I spent hours researching and creating them back in 2008 and I am not prepared to allow people who know nothing about art or Monet to mess with them.

      2. Will Apse profile image94
        Will Apseposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        There are times when I have published pages which contain factual inaccuracies and I have only realised that a year or so later during an update. If eds spot that kind of thing it is obviously a good thing.

        There are other times when I simply fail to appreciate that something needs more explanation/clarification. Again, an eds input on that would be valuable.

        In fact, there are dozens of ways that an editor's input can be valuable on a page, beyond proof-reading.

        But it all boils down to the authority and experience of the editors. I am guessing that in the majority of cases the editors judgment is going to be valuable but in some cases it is going to be wrong and that will be an embarrassment to writers who care about their reputation and perhaps be harmful to readers.

        Another problem is that if eds get it wrong, it is the more capable writers who will be offended and even if they do not leave, their enthusiasm and output will decline.

        I just can't see any upside to imposing edits in the longer term.

        1. makingamark profile image64
          makingamarkposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          Thank you Will. You also "get it".

          I agree totally with the examples you use of ways in which Editors can be helpful.

          However as a writer who has had both a book and series of magazine articles published by very reputable 'proper' print publishers, I am simply not accustomed to having my content edited without any reference to me whatsoever.

          A professional editor who wants the continued co-operation of the author always reviews suggested edits with the author. I expect nothing less from HubPages. I also expect respect for the expertise and knowledge of the author from an Editor who cannot 'boast' the same.

          1. Will Apse profile image94
            Will Apseposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            I'm not really on your side here, MaM. You are a bit too ferocious for me, lol. I believe in the power of dialogue, for no doubt archaic and no longer useful reasons.

            1. makingamark profile image64
              makingamarkposted 9 months agoin reply to this

              I believe in the power of dialogue too

              I get ferocious when there isn't any! wink

          2. DzyMsLizzy profile image96
            DzyMsLizzyposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            This is somewhat concerning to me, as well.  While I make no claims to perfection, and am as subject to typos as anyone, it worries me that a certain set of my articles may be adversely affected.

            For example, I often write about frequently confused words, misspellings, and the like.  As examples, I will often give a phonetic pronunciation guide, which is going to be marked as an incorrect spelling.  That it is, but it serves a purpose within the article.

            I would like to think that the bot can be overridden by a human, who can lay eyes on the piece, and see it for what it is.

    17. Sue Adams profile image95
      Sue Adamsposted 9 months ago

      Editing (in collaboration with author) is a major and essential part of publishing. It happens in movies, TV shows, news, radio, script writing, advertising, and so on.

      My income has gone down from 3 digits per month to 2 but views have increased. Five of my articles have been copied over & over. I have tried for  years to get the copies taken down but failed, or they were copied again. Upon reflection, I regard copied content as a compliment. It means people want to read my stuff. For me, it is more important to be heard than to be rich.

      Reduced income should not solely be attributed to diminished numbers of ads. Most people these days have Ad Block set up because everyone hates adverts in their face. An in-line link to a product may still reach the masses.

      Finally HP is becoming truly professional - congratulations!
      However, unless we find an alternative means of income, I am not too hopeful. How does Wikipedia survive? Could they form part of a future model for HP?

      Meanwhile, I feel lucky, honored and privileged to be a part of this growing venture.

      1. makingamark profile image64
        makingamarkposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        Wikipedia survives via contributions from people like me who believe it is an important asset on the internet. I use it a lot, I reference it a lot and hence every year I make a contribution to its upkeep.

        Sites that people value generate that sort of support.

        Moving forward I am in no way reliant on adverts on my new websites - mainly because of recognising the increasing importance of the ad blocks. However using Amazon associate links doesn't seem to cause a problem. I'm very puzzled by HubPages income generation model....

    18. Robin profile image
      97
      Robinposted 9 months ago

      Will, I know you have been through the editing process.  I agree with you.  I think it's incredibly important that we don't introduce errors and alienate the Hubbers that are an important part of our community.  I want to keep the dialogue open, and we want to know when we make mistakes so that we can improve.  In most cases, Hubbers and editors working together has been extremely positive.  One thing to keep in mind is that the staff is constantly researching and updating ourselves on online practices that Hubbers may not know about.  Collaborating and teaching Hubbers these best practices is on the forefront of our minds.  We see this as a partnership; we hope you do, too.

      1. makingamark profile image64
        makingamarkposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        HP staff editing according to practices which is "on your minds" but you haven't yet communicated to hubbers isn't very helpful.

        It does NOT count as constructive dialogue or partnership with hubbers if the only dialogue is happening on the staff side!

      2. Will Apse profile image94
        Will Apseposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        My view of editing has changed as time has gone by. My first experience was not great for a variety of reasons, mostly to do with my own apprehension.

        Now I see significant changes that have been made by editors as experiments which may or may not work.

        If they work, then well done to the editor. If traffic or dwell times drop I will change the page one more time, perhaps back to the original, perhaps in a new direction.

        It's all about serving the reader, as far as I am concerned and too much egotism from any party can get in the way of that.

    19. Robin profile image
      97
      Robinposted 9 months ago

      That Hub was not edited with HubPro Basic; I don't have a record of any of your articles being edited with HubPro—please provide a link if I'm mistaken; it is possible.  smile  The article you mention was snipped by a moderator.  You should have received an email about the snipping.  There is a difference between snipping by a moderator, HubPro Basic, and HubPro Premium.  In your case, a moderator decided that there were spammy elements that needed to be removed in order for the article to remain featured. When a moderator snips, all they can do is cut out capsules; they can't edit or add content. 

      I think it's important that you don't confuse Hubbers into thinking you've been HubPro Premium edited and content was added to your articles without your consent or without communication.  That has not happened.

      1. makingamark profile image64
        makingamarkposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        Let's be very clear

        1. Items were snipped from my hub without any discussion with me and in a way which undermined the purpose and the content.
        2. The introduction was changed (and downgraded i.e. duplicate text introduced) without any discussion with me
        3. Two books I own and which are both relevant to the hub were dumped without any discussion with me
        4. An entire Link Module was snipped and discarded without any discussion with me. So far as I am aware it contained one link which had become spammy - but had not happened as a result of anything I had done i.e. you changed the definition of spammy links.  If there is one spammy link then tell me about - AS HAPPENED ON A NUMBER OF OTHER HUBS WHERE WHOLE MODULES WERE NOT DELETED and I removed the spammy link
        5. The truncation of the content left the end of the hub looking a complete and utter nonsense.

        This happened at exactly the same time as the announcement of the HubPro not optional Premium editing was now being implemented.

        Is there any wonder I'm describing it as if it is HubPro Premium editing?

        I've already provided the link in an earlier post. Here it is again http://hubpages.com/art/monet-haystacks

        I'm confused. Please explain
        * in what way does this level of editing differ from HubPro Premium and
        * why there was no correspondence despite the level of snipping and changes made

        Bottom line
        * I actually don't care what you call this type of editing. I call it ignorant and disrespectful.
        * The ACTUAL ACTIONS were enough for me to delete the hub and remove the content to another website.


        Like I said in an earlier post on this thread
        "I have a very simple rule.
        HubPages messes with my content, copyright and expertise and they lose MY CONTENT."


        I don't trust HubPages any more when it behaves like this.
        I'm now planning to spend some time tomorrow archiving content and statistics, removing content and DELETING A LOT OF HUBS.

    20. Robin profile image
      97
      Robinposted 9 months ago

      This conversation is great for me to clarify because if you are confused, I'm sure others are as well.  smile 

      Snipping:  This occurs to bring your article in compliance with HubPages policies.  Snipping is done so that the article is eligible for moving to a Network Site, or so that it is not defeatured or unpublished for quality.  Capsules that we don't feel are useful to the reader can be cut or snipped from the article and title changes can occur.  You have never been able to opt-out of snipping.  Emails are not sent before the snipping occurs but are sent afterward.

      HubPro Basic:  Basic editing can fix spelling, grammar, layout, and the removal of spammy elements.  Writer/Editor communication does not occur other than a final email being sent with the edits that occurred. You have never been able to opt-out of Basic Editing.  Basic edits can be small minor mistakes (like an error in the first paragraph) or more in-depth, e.g., grammar edits throughout and layout changes to help readability (especially on mobile.) 

      HubPro Premium:  Hubbers work directly with an editor to discuss and collaborate on their article.  Editors discuss possible additions to the article as well as images that could be added (at HubPages's expense).  We have a team of photographers and illustrators that we work with.  Editors will also fact-check at this stage.  In the past, you could opt-out of HubPro Premium, but within the next month or so, you will no longer be able to do so. 

      HubPages is a blended format of editing and writers.  It is probably best for those that do not want their articles edited to move their content to their own domains where they have complete control.  We understand that our format isn't for everyone, and it is pretty apparent that you fall in this category.  We do wish you the very best on your own sites.  You have a lot of good information to share with the world.  Good luck to you.

      1. makingamark profile image64
        makingamarkposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        I agree - the greater editorial control of format and content without consultation with the author is certainly NOT something I signed up for. Nor would I.

        Especially not when it takes a hub which I agree might have benefited from a modicum of more work - and made it significantly worse in my opinion. If I don't respect the actions of the Editors then I cannot respect the site. (That - bottom line - is the only thing you really need to be concerned about as I suspect this is a sentiment shared by a number of authors on this site)

        I shall start working through the deletion of ALL my hubs this weekend. It will take some time to remove them all.

        I'm very grateful for the fact that HubPages provided a home for Squidoo lenses when we were left with little time to find accommodation for content elsewhere.

        However I do wonder at times just how many of them are left on HubPages. I rather suspect there are many more like me who have found a better solution elsewhere - through our own efforts.

        1. Marisa Wright profile image97
          Marisa Wrightposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          There may be no consultation, BUT you do have the choice to reject the edits if you so wish.  You are supplied a link so you can view the Hubs and see where the changes are, so you can undo them. 

          In some cases, if you undo the changes, the Hub will not move to the niche site.  I had this experience with one Hub: the editor made changes, I changed them back, and the Hub did not move.  However it is still published on the main site. 

          And in fact, there IS consultation - if you contact the team and query the edits, you will often be able to discuss the changes with an editor and agree a solution.

          1. makingamark profile image64
            makingamarkposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            Sorry Marisa - there was absolutely nothing I could see ON THE HUB which allowed me to reject the changes (in contrast to the basic Editbot changes which I've never had a problem with).

            If that's what is supposed to happen then I'd suggest somebody review how clear the instructions are ON THE HUB to make that happen.

            For the record I did contact the team and did query the edits and still don't have a reply - other than in this thread.

            ...and I still don't know how to reverse the edits!

            1. DzyMsLizzy profile image96
              DzyMsLizzyposted 9 months agoin reply to this

              I'm guessing that you can 'reject' the edits by going back into edit mode and manually putting things back the way you want them...I don't know...just a guess.

              1. makingamark profile image64
                makingamarkposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                Why should we have to guess?

                1. DzyMsLizzy profile image96
                  DzyMsLizzyposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                  We shouldn't, but since that part apparently has not been made clear, we are left with guesswork.

                  I've personally not been visited yet by the premium edits...we shall see.

                2. Marisa Wright profile image97
                  Marisa Wrightposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                  You don't have to guess, you just have to read the email properly.

            2. Marisa Wright profile image97
              Marisa Wrightposted 9 months agoin reply to this

              When you get the email that your Hub has been edited, it includes a link which will take you to a special view of the Hub, where the changes are highlighted.  It says so in the email.  If capsules have been deleted you can undelete them, etc. 

              If you simply look at the Hub using the normal Edit mode, you can't see any of that.

              1. makingamark profile image64
                makingamarkposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                The way you explain it Marisa I understand it. The way it looks WHEN YOU ARE IN THE HUB I didn't.

                That's my point!

        2. Will Apse profile image94
          Will Apseposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          Ah well, you were always a fine litmus test for the patience of the staff, lol.

          Sorry to see you go.

    21. makingamark profile image64
      makingamarkposted 9 months ago

      Just been back and revisited the original snipping email as per Marisa's comment.

      Some points relevant to those who, like me, have never been snipped before
      1) You can ONLY see the snips via the email. You cannot access them any other way. There is no link within the edit view which takes you to the snips view
      2) There is NO UNDO BUTTON within the hub.
      3) You can view the snips - but that's it!
      4) Meaning that if you disagree with the snips there's no simple reversal via a button you have to click
      5) You have to reinsert the content manually - one bit at a time.

      Speaking personally that is not something I want to do when somebody snips a whole module of links because one link happens to be spammy - when on other hubs I get the heads up about the spammy link and the opportunity to delete that one link.

      Or when somebody snips books because they haven't got a clue about art and just think more than one Amazon module is just too much!

    22. laksi profile image73
      laksiposted 9 months ago

      Hi, this is slightly off-topic. Do you think that there will ever come a time when Hubpages will pay its writers? I know that they are not paying writers at the moment, but there are an awful lot of rules, and especially new ones, and it kind of feels a bit frustrating always being 'told' things especially when not being paid for work. I'm not saying that the quality shouldn't be good, it just seems a bit cheeky that Hubpages has so many demands, and yet doesn't even pay its authors...I guess what i'm saying is I wouldn't mind so much if I were being paid for my work, effort, and time...

      1. DzyMsLizzy profile image96
        DzyMsLizzyposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        Hello, laski--
        You do get paid, through Hub Pages, (not by them), if you have an adsense account, and configure your Hubs to contain adsense ads, and Hub Pages program ads.  The payment comes from the advertisers when readers click on an ad in your article.

        If you also have Amazon associate status set up, you get paid a share from them every time someone buys something from their site, after clicking on your Amazon ad.

        You can set all this up by going to the "earnings" tab in your account screen: https://hubpages.com/my/earnings/affiliate/

     
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