Does anyone else have this roadblock/mental block with backlinks?

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  1. Lisa HW profile image64
    Lisa HWposted 13 years ago

    I suppose I'm just trying to find out if I'm the only one with this particular "backlinking disability" (maybe it should be a new, officially-named, mental disorder, "BDD" - Backlinking Disability Disorder).  This thread is part venting, part hoping someone can point out what my problem is, part hoping someone with a similar problem has found a way to overcome it, and part wanting to - once and for all - just lay it on the line what a challenge this is for me, having others with a similar challenge discuss it, and where it leads (if anywhere other than having people say, "If you're not big on Internet-related stuff you need to write for print publishers only."  lol)  (That's something I kind of know, but then again it's hard to give up hundreds of dollars a month earned as easily as they can be on here.  In fact, that's the thing that makes me feel like a moron for working as hard I do for income from other sources.)  So this thread is long, but it's my "heart-to-heart" discussion (hopefully) between me and "the world" about reassessing what I'm doing (or could do) and what the hell is wrong with me.  lol  (I hope people understand that I don't want it to be all as self-centered as it seems.  I'm thinking there are probably other "closet morons" out there besides me.  smile)

    On the one hand, I know exactly what kind of Hubs do well, what kind don't, and why either does either.  So I know that much.  I'm not a complete moron (usually), and I can muster up a professionally written piece of work if that's what my aim is.  I'm not even a complete moron when it comes to business.  I'm a business person in my own way (a small business, but a paying one that involves writing).

    I've been on HubPages long enough to see pretty decent earnings, at least compared to the number of people who say they earn far less than I've been earning.  Knowing I put little effort into anything but writing (and sometimes I don't even put a lot of effort into some Hubs that I "just feel like writing"), I see the earning potential for anyone who puts in the effort on the "nitty-gritty" stuff related to the Internet, rather than the writing or information on the Hub.  Without going into details (which we're not supposed to do), I see quite a few things in my Google account that let me know Google doesn't "think" my stuff is complete junk.

    On the other hand, I'm pretty much, and in many ways, a seeming moron when it comes to something like backlinks (or else I'm just writing stuff that I know isn't worth anyone's backlinks).  I know what backlinks are and how important they are, but don't know how to get them if they don't happen "naturally" (without my doing anything) (as has happened on occasion).

    I've read some great Hubs on backlinking (Misha's recent ones may be among the ones that really stand out), and I've been happy to see things in "non-Google language; because when I try to read any of Google's help for "publishers" I have trouble concentrating on it.  (I have concentrating on some reading anyway these days because I have a lot of stuff going on, but that doesn't stop me from concentrating on something like Hubs about backlinking).  So, I've been particularly happy and appreciative to find Hubs like that, that explain things in an easy-to-read way.

    So, when I've found Hubs like that I've thought, "Oh, boy.  This is what I need."  Then, as I read about what people do to create backlines, I'm thinking, "I can't do that one," and "Oops, that's one I can't do."    Granted, there are a few terms here or there that I don't know; but, in general, I pretty much understand what people are saying.  I know these efforts take a lot of work and patience, but I'm not a lazy person (maybe a little short on patience, though).

    Naturally, whenever there are discussions about how people can make their Hubs do better (even if they're doing well in one way or another now), I become painfully aware that most of 300 or so Hubs could be doing a heck of lot better than they are now (and that makes me realize I'm more of a moron than I usually think I am  lol  )

    I ask myself if I just don't know enough; and although I know how little I know, I've also been writing online and on here for 3 years (or almost 3 years); and I pretty much know at least the "rock-bottom basics" of Internet-related aspects to writing.

    I know how I could fix titles to improve what one Hub or another is doing, and I know what I'd have to do to improve keyword use (particularly in view of the fact that I completely disregard keywords a good part of the time - only because I'm also challenged to "have to be worrying about keywords" while also concentrating on having a certain amount of "creative freedom" when I write.  (so, separate issue, but one I know how to fix)

    It's the backlinking thing.  First, people on here (the forums) probably wouldn't guess this, but I live with a "writer's personality", which means always having to battle the tendency to be shy about some things.  I can't make myself contact someone about putting a link on their site because I don't usually see anything I've written as worth linking to.  (Let's be honest.  smile  )  I've had people contact me about linking to their site.  A few times I've done it if their site is good; but I don't always do it because sometimes I don't think their site applies to my Hub.  I don't want to be that person who e.mails someone and asks for a link to something that - really - they aren't very likely to want to post a link to (any more than I want someone with an unrelated/irrelevant page/site to try to "ride on the coat-tails of one of my better performing Hubs and possibly detracting from it).

    Even if I have a Hub that I think would be worth someone's linking to, I rule out places like .org, .gov, and .edu sites because I know my Hubs aren't written in a way that belong on their site.  There might be "Susie out there somewhere" with a blog, but how do you find a zillion of those people for 300 Hubs?   There might even be things like groups or organizations for one thing or another, but I usually don't see any signs of their posting links to the particular kind of writing I've done so far.

    That goes to the thing about finding people/systems that assist with backlinking; and that's where I know so little I'm afraid I'll get involved with something that goes against terms of service (and loses me what earnings I DO get, as well as potential future Google-account-related earnings).  I'm pretty reluctant to consider paying for links, both for that same reason and because I'm wary of rip-offs (and don't know how to recognize one from a non-rip-off thing).

    I mean, there's a part of me that thinks, "If the thing is good enough and gets some traffic on its own, it will get backlinks."  (I've actually got Hubs that have fended for themselves fairly well - although I keep thinking how I could be earning "Big Bucks" if I could overcome the BDD.   hmm  )  I will, however, admit to having a deeply ingrained and stubborn writer's belief (and need to believe) that if writing is good enough it will make it's way in the world by virtue of "all its wonderful-ness"  lol  )  (Naive, stupid, and deluded - I know)  smile

    So I don't know.....     Am I missing something?  Am I hopeless?  Should I just be satisfied with my few hundred dollars a month that appear to be gradually growing - and maybe go write a book somewhere?  Is there such a thing a arranging something with someone who would be like an "agent" - and do the backlinking thing for me (and skimming a percentage off the earnings - that type of thing?)

    It would be less frustrating if I hadn't reached a certain level of success (in earnings, in scores, etc.); but I'm pretty much face-to-face with the reality that the "BDD" is really making a lot of my effort a big waste, at least in terms of earnings (well, that and the fact that I also have "AmDD" - Amazon Disability Disorder", which is a-whole-nothing challenge).  It's one thing when people are just starting out or when they don't know what a Hub is supposed to (I was there too).  It's another to have fairly substantial earnings (not a full-time income, by any means - but showing a certain amount of promise) and know there's a good chance that overcoming that "BDD" might make the difference between a non-full-time income and, maybe, a modest one.

    Without knowing what all those other 150-thousand-plus Hubbers are doing, what I feel like is that I have a lot of things in common with some of the Hubbers who specialize in marketing/product-type Hubs; but then a lot in common with people who specialize in "writing-whatever-they-feel-like-writing" Hubs.  As a result, I don't know if I'm someone who has something in common (Hub-achievement-wise) with most Hubbers; or if that makes me a "Hubber without a country".   smile

    So I'm just throwing this whole thing out there.  If nothing else, it outlines what some of the issues for at least some Hubbers (or maybe just this one, Hubber) can be.

    1. Research Analyst profile image75
      Research Analystposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I think the first thing you should do is backlink all your hubs to this long forum post. LOL smile

    2. Marisa Wright profile image87
      Marisa Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You're not the only one, Lisa!  I'm not a great backlinker either.  I have tried contacting other websites for links, but have had virtually no success - maybe I'm just too easily discouraged.

      However, my biggest handicap is scruples.  The other day I watched a video for some software to create interlinking blogs - along the lines of Sunforged's excellent article. But the scale of the exercise in the video was mind-boggling.   The presenter was demonstrating how to create 3,000 meaningless rubbish blogs, all to promote his single money-making website.  I couldn't bring myself to spew out so much garbage.

      1. profile image0
        EmpressFelicityposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        I couldn't do it either - there's enough cr*p on the Internet as it is.

        Lisa, maybe the problem you're having with backlinking is that it's just so BORING. Plus you don't know just how "worth it" backlinking is in terms of the extra earnings it will generate.

        I've created three accounts at bookmarking sites (SheToldMe, Snipsly and Xomba), and it's all I can do to psych myself up to create backlinks at each of these three sites whenever I write a hub.  I suppose it's worth doing though, because I do notice a slight surge in traffic every time I have a backlinking session - I do about five hubs at a time, and copy & paste URLs and titles between the three sites. 

        For me personally, the trouble with all this stuff is that it's a new, untried "field".  I have no idea of the reward/effort ratio of what I'm doing, whether for backlinking or writing the hubs in the first place!  I'm the kind of person who likes to KNOW in advance what sort of payoff I'm going to get from a particular activity.  Really, I'm not the sort of stuff of which entrepreneurs are made - I've had entrepreneurship forced on me because I find it so hard to work for other people LOL.

    3. JYOTI KOTHARI profile image61
      JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I loved this looooong one. Have you tried video linking or news linking?
      Jyoti Kothari

  2. CarpetDiem profile image72
    CarpetDiemposted 13 years ago

    Wow... epic post!
    Maybe you should make this a hub instead of a forum post? smile

    I have many mental blocks, and hate working on links...

  3. IzzyM profile image87
    IzzyMposted 13 years ago

    I'm interested in hearing what the others have to say too, Lisa. I've got half your hubs and been here a fraction of the time, but I'm not seeing much happening either. Thing is, this IS my full-time job. I don't have any other work. But 30€ a month won't pay the bills, no matter how many hours I sit here trying to work it all out!

  4. relache profile image74
    relacheposted 13 years ago

    I have about 2/3 of the amount of Hubs you have, I don't work on backlinks and I just missed a $600 payout last month (HubPages earnings only) by $1.35.  Best May I've seen in four years... whatever Google did to their search engine in the MayDay update seemed to be alright by me.

    I'm sure someday I'll feel like working on backlinks, but that moment hasn't arrived yet.  I'd rather spend my time writing a few more Hubs that land at the top of Google's first page in the SERPs, to go with the ones I have now.

    1. blondepoet profile image69
      blondepoetposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      That is awesome. I am the same still learning about backlinks, yet not practising them and I am earning without them...

    2. IzzyM profile image87
      IzzyMposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Lisa did say she is earning a few hundred every month. I think what she wants is to get the thousand, or more figure...don't we all?
      Relache, maybe if you backlinked you'd be earning thousands now and not hundreds?
      All these figures seem like the dizzy heights to me. I should go back to taxi driving lol, it paid better!

    3. Lisa HW profile image64
      Lisa HWposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Izzy, it's good to know I'm not alone.  I make enough to pay some bills - but so, so, not anywhere near enough to pay all of them.

  5. relache profile image74
    relacheposted 13 years ago

    I think the trick is to figure out what you do well, and work from there.   

    Some people write content, others buy it from pros.  Some have studied marketing for years, some choose to not work from that angle, and others chose to put in the effort to learn how.

    If you don't do anything well, then you had better pick someplace to start, and then work at it.

  6. Misha profile image64
    Mishaposted 13 years ago


    I don't think anybody can help you now. You have all the knowledge to start making a living off your hubs, you need to act on it. JUST FUCKING DO IT! smile

    1. Research Analyst profile image75
      Research Analystposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      WOw,  Misha you sure have a way with words, LOL

      1. Misha profile image64
        Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        I hope I did not scare Lisa though - but I seriously think that all what she needs a good kick in the rear end, which I tried to deliver. Loving your new pic RA smile

        Lisa, I am sorry if I offended you, this was not the intention smile

    2. frogdropping profile image78
      frogdroppingposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Oh my utter class and so damn right! Misha tells it like it is once again!

      Honestly Lisa the reason a lot of us could be earning more is because of the backlinking process. It is painful, it is or can be labor intensive but it does make a difference.
      Personally I detest it. I want someone to do it for me. It's truly horrible, niggly irritating work. But do it you/I/all must.

      Humph lol - not the easy answer huh? But at least it's an honest one smile

  7. profile image49
    cheyenne!!posted 13 years ago


  8. Cagsil profile image72
    Cagsilposted 13 years ago

    Hey Lisa,

    Have you read this forum thread? smile

    It might help you.

  9. Lisa HW profile image64
    Lisa HWposted 13 years ago

    relache, thanks.  It's encouraging to know I'm not the only one who, for whatever reason, hasn't focused on backlinking.  I think you're right about focusing on what we're strongest with (and I know I focus on what I'm weakest on and see that as my reason for not doing better).  I guess, though, even if I've seen a certain amount sort-of success here, I've come to think that what I'm good at will/can never be enough to do much better.  Just knowing that you aren't a big backlinking "fan" tells me that at least one other person on here isn't focusing on the backlinking route.


    lol   lol    Thanks (I guess), although a little more blunt that I would have expected.  lol  That's kind of what I keep telling myself, though (usually not in quite the same words ).  That's the thing, though, I don't know what my problem is.  I guess, as someone who knows nothing about backlinking (and as someone who has read about it and mostly understands it), I don't know what that Step 1 would be (stupid as that sounds).    I think it has to do with the fact that so many of my Hubs aren't about things like, "how to polish your shoes" or "where to buy travel mugs".  So many are about things like, "Dealing with the loss of a loved one" - and they don't belong on a professional site, but they aren't right for someone's personal blog about their own personal stuff.  They're not really "diary type" of stuff, but they aren't professional information either.  That probably tells me to write different stuff (and I can do that from now on), but it still leaves a big load of Hubs that I do think could be doing better. 

    I know you're right.  Chances are nobody can help me.  lol  I just thought I'd try.  (Maybe I need to do a search for a Hubber who is a psychiatrist and willing to offer some free analysis.  lol )

    Izzy, I would like to be earning more in the area of at least $1000 (and, I know, who wouldn't....  smile  ).  I'd also like to boost up my weaker Hubs in case any of the stronger ones stop performing.

    Besides, based on just that one example of earnings Relache shared, my earnings are somewhat lower than what she had for May earnings (and, as she pointed out) she's got far fewer Hubs.  I know we're all different and have different kinds of Hubs and put in different kinds of effort, so I know we can't really compare ourselves to anyone else.  Still, I know I'm "way underachieving" on here, and that doesn't make sense (in view of the fact that I could certainly use the income).  smile

    1. Mark Knowles profile image58
      Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I feel for ya. I had the same "writers" approach that said - If I write great articles they will come read it and I will make money. And I did.

      But not enough.

      Hubpages accounts for about $3000 a month income for me right now - but only since I got serious about finding paying subjects and actively trying to make money as my primary goal. Doing keyword research, building links aggressively.

      Basically - I looked at which pages are making money and did more of that. lol I also spent money automating some things. I am crap at keyword research. Utter crap. So - instead of doing it - I bought some software that does it for me and learned to look at the free information I have in my google analytics account that tells me which pages attract paying traffic and what they are using to find me. PM me for some specifics. The I go out and aggressively build incoming links. Some with automated software.

      Like Misha said..... big_smile

      1. Lisa HW profile image64
        Lisa HWposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Mark, I know....   "Like Misha said  lol "

        I think part of my own problem is that I didn't start on here having any idea of what a Hub was supposed to be, and I didn't set any direction for myself.  I just kind of ended up "wherever"; but once you find out that "wherever" has earning potential it can be hard to take two different aims in one direction.  (Paying for stuff I don't feel like doing sounds good to me.  lol  )

        1. Mark Knowles profile image58
          Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I hate building links. Hate it. Hate it. I genuinely thought - as some still do that if I wrote an authority page on a topic - I would get traffic. And I did - but no where near enough to make a living. I have just employed several people to do it for me and am going to be selling a service as well. My profile has a link to my new site - work in progress, but some links to automated software.

          1. Eric Graudins profile image60
            Eric Graudinsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Hi Mark,
            Agree entirely. Link building is the pits.
            And "If you build it, they will come" is not a good plan.

            I haven't stuck my head into Hubpages for a while, and it seems like the winds of change have stirred things up a bit, and people are open to a bit of ethical SEO.

            I'll be interested to find out a bit more about what you're up to since the Luxury property market took a bit of a hit.

            cheers, Eric G.

  10. profile image57
    dwippyposted 13 years ago

    If what you are looking for is for some random person to come along and link to your page unless your getting tons of traffic its probably not going to happen.

    In lieu of the natural backlinks the next step is.

    Create an account at InfoBarrel write a dozen or so barrels linking (when relevant) back to your hubs.

    Create an account at GoArticles write a dozen or so articles linking when relevant back to your hubs and barrels.

    Create an account at Ezine articles write a dozen or so articles and put 2 links back to your hubs or infobarrels or goarticles into the bio box.

    Submit an application to Buzzle write a dozen or so articles and send one link (that's all they allow) back to your hubs, infobarrels, goarticles, or ezines.

    Create an account at shetoldme and create a bookmark for all your Hubs, infobarrels, goarticles, ezines, and buzzle articles.

    Find a new site repeat.
    Find a new site repeat.
    Find a new site repeat.

    Did you find that psychiatrist yet? :-)

    ps you DID say you weren't lazy right?  Just crazy?

    1. relache profile image74
      relacheposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      That's why some of us just make articles that draw high traffic...

    2. Anolinde profile image84
      Anolindeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      This is the direction I'm planning (and beginning) to take smile

    3. Lisa HW profile image64
      Lisa HWposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      dwippy, thanks for some of those sites.  I think these days I'm actually hazy, rather than either lazy or crazy.   lol

      relache, thanks.  That's kind of where I'm aiming to be now (particularly in view of my apparent mental block when it comes to backlinking, etc.)   hmm

    4. salt profile image61
      saltposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Thats the best advise in all of this. Step by step instructions. Ive thought of setting that out for myself. So I just set 2 -3 hours aside and sit and post backlinks like a job.

      Ive just got the hang of making myself make my day like a job.  Thanks.

      1. Anolinde profile image84
        Anolindeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Glad to know you're doing it like a job, Salt.  I think that is the best approach and I really need to get into that kind of mentality.  I planned to have 2 articles (one post for my new blog and another for backlink ), but didn't get any of that done because I just spent half the day fooling around with my new Wordpress theme (and the other half with housework, etc)! LOL tongue

  11. Fiction Teller profile image60
    Fiction Tellerposted 13 years ago

    Hi Lisa,

    I don't do external backlinking - at least, only rarely, and not in any systematic way - and my articles perform just fine.  I don't think you need to do them.  I think folks who create content that's not evergreen - like sporting events or fad products - find more of a need to backlink, because of the time factor involved.  If they waited for links to develop organically, they'd be out of luck - the fad or event would be over.

    But backlinks are not the "secret" to making money - at least, not in the longterm.  In fact, with recent aglorithm changes at Google, low quality (article marketing) backlinks seem to be falling out of favor even more. And high quality backlinks are harder to come by for most people who don't have separate, established websites. 

    So for those who don't like doing them or don't have the infrastructure in place, it makes sense to focus instead on keeping up with ever-changing SEO strategies and keeping articles fresh, useful and updated and interlinking with other related hubs.

    So based on my own experience and what I've observed over the course of two years, I think you can still reach your goals without backlinking, by using the time and energy you'd use with social media or article marketing in creating more hubs and improving the ones you already have.

  12. jenblacksheep profile image68
    jenblacksheepposted 13 years ago

    I have the opposite kind of problem I think. I understand about backlinking (although I'm too lazy to do it well) I think my content is just not good enough (although I'm fairly sure I'm improving). You're earning way more money than me (i have never reached payout) but I know a little about backlinking.

    I used 4 backlinking sites (snipsly, shetoldme, reddit and xomba) you don't ask permission to use them, you just create an account. You create a bookmark, article (whatever the particular site calls them), write 50 words about your hub (like the summary section at the top of a hub) trying to include your keywords, then it will show you where to stick your link, add a few tags and that's pretty much it.

    I started a thread 30 minutes ago about backlinking and people are giving me some pretty good ideas about how else I can backlink. Might be worth checking that out.

    1. Lisa HW profile image64
      Lisa HWposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Fiction Teller, thanks.

      jenblacksheep, thanks.  I kind of have the same thing you do.  Some of my Hubs (a minority) I wouldn't think twice about trying to get backlinks for (well, I do think twice, but not because I think those Hubs aren't good enough).  A lot of them, though - I just don't think anyone would want to link too.  (Transitioning from "pretty-much-fooling-around" writing (well, not fooling around, but "hobby" writing) to "serious Hubbing" may require just starting clean (but then I already have all those Hubs).   hmm

  13. IzzyM profile image87
    IzzyMposted 13 years ago

    This is a great thread! Somewhere between yesterday morning and today I have realised what is wrong with my hubs - all of them - and I am now working to put things right.
    Least I think I have the right idea now. Its about writing for the google spiders and not for me. Its changing words and phrases to include the keywords. The backlinking can come later. The hubs are wrong - they need sorted first.

    1. Misha profile image64
      Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Izzy, not to discourage you, but I am afraid you are going in the wrong direction. As I said to yu on another thread, just having your keyword in the text 2-4 times is pretty much all on-page optimization you need for Google, providing you already have it in the title and preferably url. The rest is backlinking.

      All that assumes that your keyword research is done properly. smile

      To tell you the truth when I started I too spent many months tweaking my pages - with the same result. Once I got serious about backlinks though, I started to see the light smile

      1. Anolinde profile image84
        Anolindeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Misha, I'm just wondering ... do you do article submissions at all?  I heard that they're supposed to be "quality" backlinks as opposed to social bookmarking sites (as long as your articles are original content and you don't write cr@p or use article spinners and stuff).  What say you? smile

        1. Misha profile image64
          Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Yes, absolutely. smile

  14. Bill Manning profile image66
    Bill Manningposted 13 years ago

    I've been using a new way for backlinks recently. I've teamed up with some friends who have blogs and we write articles on each others blogs.

    We put the links in our articles for a more natural linking. Right now we just link to our own blogs, but you could link to hubs too.

    Plus you get a different style of writing in your blog that should help you with ranking in SE's. So if you have a blog, try to find others who also have a blog and help each other out by writing and linking as guest authors. smile

    1. salt profile image61
      saltposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      thatws a great idea. maybe we could start an backlinking club.

  15. Dolores Monet profile image94
    Dolores Monetposted 13 years ago

    Lisa, I too, avoided working at creating links for myself, but when I started, I did notice some increased traffic and a little bit more money. I think that writing a hub is great fun and enjoy it so. But sometimes, I set aside some time and dedicate that to linking. Those short 50 word things, you can crank them out. Only problem for me was, one of my stupid ezine articles drew a ton of traffic and was their #1 article in its catagory for 3 months. I thought, shoot, should have written that one for the old HP.

    1. Lisa HW profile image64
      Lisa HWposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Dolores, thanks.  That is what I need to do (set aside time).    Maybe I will look into some of those 50-word things.  Actually, I think one reason I'm too worn out to be bothered learning about backlinking is that I write a lot of really draining Hubs.  (I'm sure they're draining on readers too, though - but that's an issue for another day and place.  smile  )  Then, though, what I'll do to take a break from the "big, serious" stuff is write about something foolish - but I'll still write a big, long, Hub anyway.  lol

  16. Pcunix profile image91
    Pcunixposted 13 years ago

    Google should be able to tell the difference between genuine organic linking and the fake, often incestuous  kind of crap that goes on today.

    Take the guy who brags that he and his buddies link to each other.

    First, tell me how that helps anyone other than the dishonest participants?  If Google falls for it and gives them better SERP, Google is giving poor results, so they have an incentive to notice this sort of behavior and discount it.

    I'm not saying they always have or even that they do it now, but the incentive is there and I think they will if they don't already.

    As to creating junk that links back to your own stuff, again, you are doing nothing but polluting the Internet with junk and again Google has incentive to ignore it if it can figure out the game - and sooner or later, they will.

    If your post actually has value, other people will link to it, will Twitter it, will mention it in emails and it WILL do well in SERP. 

    Gaming the system is dishonest and makes it more difficult for all of us to find genuinely useful content when we need it.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image58
      Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      "Should" doesn't cut it. Google has to satisfy their advertisers also. They need to supply "relevant" results. If you write the absolute best piece ever on XYZ and no one ever sees it in the first place - how do these organic links appear?:

      You are fooling yourself. Sorry.

      1. Pcunix profile image91
        Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        I think you misunderstand.  Obviously it has to be seen.  But cream tends to float by itself.

        I just posted a hub about this. 

        And yes, Eric, it is sadly true that Google can be misdirected.  My point is simply that they have great incentive not to be fooled.

    2. Eric Graudins profile image60
      Eric Graudinsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Yeah, That's what I used to think too.

      Looking through what you've written though, methinks that you credit Gooogle's algorithm with a bit too much intelligence.

      Eric G.

      1. Pcunix profile image91
        Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        I just found this in Googles cache,  it says Google punishes dirty linking: … -for-bing/

        1. Misha profile image64
          Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Do you believe everything you find online? I am going to start a dirty linking campaign on your hubs then lol

          1. Pcunix profile image91
            Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Do I believe that Google punishes?

            Yes,  I do.

            You can find plenty of anecdotal evidence of that, but I have no interest in getting into a peeing contest over it.

            You don't believe it, that's fine with me.

            1. Misha profile image64
              Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Whatever. I was ready to give you a benefit of a doubt after your entrance blooper with adsense, but now it looks almost certain you are all about pretending. No interest in peeing contest either, good luck with your endeavors...

              1. Pcunix profile image91
                Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this


                What am I pretending?

                I assert that Google has incentive to devalue falsely promoted content. You disagree with that?

                I also say that you can easily find people who claim that they lost PR and SERP when they used shady techniques.  Are you saying they are all liars?

                If that is your opinion, fine.  I fail to see what I am "pretending".

              2. Eric Graudins profile image60
                Eric Graudinsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Good grief Misha. You've mellowed somewhat lol

                And you and pcunix are both right. You're just discussing different parts of the same elephant - like the 8 wise men.

                cheers, Eric G.

                1. Misha profile image64
                  Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  LOL I guess I am getting older. Or just busier? lol

                2. Pcunix profile image91
                  Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  It might help if you explain it to both of us :-)

                  I really don't understand why Misha is ticked off at what I said.  I must be missing a big part of that elephant!

                3. Mrvoodoo profile image58
                  Mrvoodooposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  'And you and pcunix are both right. You're just discussing different parts of the same elephant - like the 8 wise men.'

                  That's as may be, but I live my life by the rule 'never take serious advice from a man wearing a rainbow clown wig', and it's served me well so far. smile

              3. Pcunix profile image91
                Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                "Google confirms punishment"
       … punishment

                Plenty more like that out there, Misha.

        2. Eric Graudins profile image60
          Eric Graudinsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Not sure what your point is, but if you're implying that I advocate the use of black hat techniques to spam google then you're jumping to a very wrong conclusion.

          Eric G.

          1. Pcunix profile image91
            Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this


            How would I know what technique you use?

            I was simply posting some evidence that Google does punish as well as reward.

            I'm not accusing anyone of anything, simply pointing out that Google has great incentive to root out falsely promoted  posts.

            Fiction Teller is making the same point farther down.

  17. Misha profile image64
    Mishaposted 13 years ago

    LOL Mark, I can use some of your services. Any discount? wink

    1. Mark Knowles profile image58
      Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You know there is. smile

  18. profile image0
    Nelle Hoxieposted 13 years ago

    I think the game on HubPages has been upped a bit as well. If you're in a niche where other hubbers are heavily backlinked, you might have a hard time competing without backlinks. What was possible two or three years ago when the site bagan, might not be possible now.

    And it's not always possible to know the level of backlinking to a hub. Matt Cutts himself said that the backlinking analysis tools don't work very well.

  19. IzzyM profile image87
    IzzyMposted 13 years ago

    I've one hub in particular I heavily backlinked last month and it gained 4 incoming links and traffic started to rise.
    Then it dropped away again, and I reported here on some thread that it had lost three of its links and I didn't know how or why.
    Then today it started getting hits again and I looked and all 4 backlinks are back.
    Anyone any idea what that was all about?

    1. profile image57
      dwippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      It's possible the pages you had the links on got de-indexed.  I've been having a hard time keeping things indexed lately until they've aged a bit and then suddenly they settle in.

  20. sunforged profile image71
    sunforgedposted 13 years ago

    Nelles comment is highly relevant.

    Lots of times when hubpages users are discussing "to backlink or not to backlink" the factor of competition is completely overlooked.

    this isnt an issue of trends, its an issue of competition, if your writing articles with strong keyword research on "red winter afghans" can corner the market here at hubpages w/ minimal promotion.

    Try to not backlink for something with a higher profit potential like "insurance" "ipad" "apple iphone" "lose weight" and nothing will happen for you.

    Its kind of an either or thing, either do your keyword research and find a non-competitive niche and your probably free to just let it do its thing.

    or find a profitable niche and attack it - write articles at various source, backlink endlessly - use every method at your disposal

    I do a little of each but I much prefer the earnings I receive from conquering a difficult niche than a non-competitive niche

    On Matt Cutts: I would guess the comment refers to info on Google tools and linkcommands - google webmaster tools intentionally only shows a percentage of backlinks - this doesnt refer to the effectiveness of all the tools out there (many being  tools Matt would NEVER suggest)

    I tried to break down a why on backlinking in a informal way

    ht tp://

    when people talk about "natural" backlinks I wonder who they expect are giving them away? Sure, sometimes someone pops your link into a forum conversation or thread..but for the most part how many of your visitors are webmasters? How many of your visiting webmasters would want to give you a helping hand (rather than just compete against you) They happen but not at the frequency necessary for overshadowing a highly profitable term/niche

    Whats this talk about google and honesty? Googles a business - a very big one, you are not their friend and "quality"is still something no human can agree on , not sure how you expect a bunch of geeks to program an algo to do this perfectly... Good Luck with "if you build it they will come" philosophy ...less competition for me I guess

    This is just how I think...but my advertising budget alone is bigger than most of the stated earnings in the "yeah ..i earned XXX" threads .. I am doing something right and its not building a field of dreams

    1. Bill Manning profile image66
      Bill Manningposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Quote: This is just how I think...but my advertising budget alone is bigger than most of the stated earnings in the "yeah ..i earned XXX" threads .. I am doing something right and its not building a field of dreams :Unquote

      That's something I keep saying to myself I'm going to do but never do, buying traffic and links. As you know it's very easy to lose money trying to buy advertising if you don't know what your doing.

      I know a guy who spends around $14,000 a month on different ways of getting traffic and advertising. He makes much more than that so it's worth it to him.

      Yet every time I try I just lose money. But I know many make money doing that, you just have to learn how! smile

    2. Anolinde profile image84
      Anolindeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Bravo, Sunforged!  Very well said!  That makes all kinds of awesome sense smile

  21. sunforged profile image71
    sunforgedposted 13 years ago

    hmm... For the sake of not confusing anyone - i should have said promotion budget .. as in outsourcers/virtual assistants, advanced software  / hosting etc.

    My media buying is limited to mostly using tons of vouchers and I dont directly link  buy/pay for backlinks - so advertising budget was a poor choice of words

    adwords/cpc can be dangerous to your profit if your not very careful w/ your keyword selection and budgeting - but once you find the right terms its a goldmine.

    - paid sources are not necessary - i set up the network that created the ability to have a promo budget completely manually w/ anything but a keyboard and free tools.. but as FD said , some of it gets painfully boring

  22. thisisoli profile image72
    thisisoliposted 13 years ago

    Some of my top performers have never been backlinked by me, however I definitely think backlinking is a good idea, even though it is becoming increasingly hard to create worthwhile backlinks nowadays.

    1. Pcunix profile image91
      Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I certainly would never disagree, though there is legitimate and grey and definitely wrong back linking.

      If I write a hub here about X and really need to reference a post I made at my main site because it will add to my readers knowledge or understanding, that's plainly legit.

      If I link to something that is maybe useful but maybe not, that might be grey.

      If I add my rss feed, that could be grey or legit.

      If I do it just to get the link, I say that's wrong.

      I won't do 'wong" and I don't like a lot of grey.

      That's just me.  Everybody has their own morals.

  23. Fiction Teller profile image60
    Fiction Tellerposted 13 years ago

    Lisa, about monetizing those psych articles...I'm not sure it's worth it, but if you do, I think Amazon's the way.  Backlinks would probably help their traffic, yes, but after that, I don't think they'll do much on AdSense. 

    You probably already know this, but for those who don't...most people who go online to solve emotional problems do so:

    1) To get advice or distraction/entertainment (empathy, sympathy), but not products advertisers heavily compete for, or
    2) To get fairly pricey products to solve their problems (pharmaceuticals, legal help, therapy, or stress-relieving products)

    From a quick look, it seems at least some of your psych articles aren't explicitly about the problem-solving products, and so will attract the group of people who want advice or distraction but aren't really in a buying mood.  If you can get the traffic by backlinking, you might be able to get them in consumer mode by linking to highly relevant Amazon books or other media.

    For example, some of your articles are pretty poignant. Try splitting the text module at those peak emotional points and then - in the spirit of a ruthless film editor - insert a "commercial" right underneath - not beside the text where they can too easily ignore it.  Display one or two Amazon books that look like they'd provide emotional relief - something informational, heartwarming, positive, or providing comic relief - and you can even refer to them in the text with a bit of humor or a casual aside. Then resume text.  Do this two or three places in the article, including after and/or before the Comments capsule. 

    You might see some return on this, but again, only if you get the traffic, and it is sort of like squeezing water from a stone, so if it were me I'd really focus on the new articles and not worry about the old, but anyway....

    As to how to do backlinks - I'd do it from within HubPages, unless you already have an established blog or website.  Forum posting is possible if they're dofollow and you're already part of a community - otherwise you'll have a huge time investment ahead of you. Choose a mature hub that gets decent traffic already - like at least 15 visitors a day - and that's sort of related. 

    There are zillions of ways to do backlinks, but one way you might find easiest - and that also performs well - is to link to your article in a casual way. 

    Think about the links you follow when you read web content.  You're probably more likely to click on interesting links within the text you're reading than links from sidebars or after the article.  Many visitors are, anyway.  So if you have a hub on "Dealing With the Loss of a Fish" that you're trying to promote from "How I Got Rid of My Fish's Terminal Illness," you add some text to the illness article, perhaps an aside, like:

    "I was so glad my fish survived; I was afraid I'd experience the *loss of another fish* and I wasn't prepared to deal with it.  (The asterisked phrase is hyperlinked to your promoted article). 

    There's differing views on whether to use the exact title of the linked-to article as the hyperlinked text, but it's pretty much agreed that it's a missed SEO opportunity to merely say:

    Dealing With the Loss of a Fish?  Read the *article.*

    I don't know if this will help, but good luck, and again, I really don't think external backlinking is essential for you.

  24. Fiction Teller profile image60
    Fiction Tellerposted 13 years ago

    I agree with sunforged that degree of publisher competition makes a big difference.  And I think Relache gave great advice to focus on what you're good at. 

    I know I have a different approach than many folks - while I definitely optimize, I don't promote, but instead intuit the marketing angle.  I know some of you already do this, and others can if you want to. 

    Still others are more comfortable using a strict methodology - as in - research keywords - produce article - administer seo - publish article - backlink - pause - backlink again - etc. And others do a combination.

    Whatever works is fine for now. The reason I do things differently is because I'm reluctant to rely on a single methodology, because I'm pretty sure it'll stop working in the not-too-distant future. Google's aim is to get better and better at bringing articles of perceived user value to the front, and they seem to be trying to devalue any kind of gaming of the system.  Which means that even if your article really is valuable and original and unique and special, if the methods you use to promote it get devalued, you're up a creek at some point and will need to adjust.  Which isn't a big deal, if you like that kind of thing.  I don't.

    That's Google's challenge - to exclude spam content from the index and make SERPS highly relevant - and they're trying to walk a line between letting in the good guys and pushing out the bad guys.  They're still far from achieving it - they advise webmasters outright to continue with various SEO strategies, because Google needs the SEO signals to rank documents.  But they're moving toward an approach of "If I can, by golly, I'll eventually figure out if you're worthy of the first page using my own methods and not rely on your telling me - and potentially fooling me - with easy SEO strategies or link building."   

    So that's why I'm prioritizing moderate long-term earnings over extreme short term earnings. I want to be earning at least what I'm earning now in five or ten years, and I want my offspring to be able to earn from it if I'm not around.  Which means creating the kind of content the search engines are going to find even when the rules change...and if they can't, content that will need only a few little adjustments to bring into view. 

    Anyway, I can say for a certainty that between AdSense, Amazon, and eBay, it's possible to make $2-5+ per article per month without link building on HubPages.  And it's possible without those super-big-earners - you know, the kind of article that ends up making you thousands and that's so hard to come by.  Steady earners and moderately big earners will do it.

    With enough of the right kind of articles (easily navigated, product-based, problem-solving, searched-enough, Internet-advertised, SEO'd, with original value to readers, in - as sunforged says - an area of lower publisher competition, where the niche isn't already saturated) a person can pay one's least right now.  In a blink that can change.

    What you need, though, is time.  It does take a lot of time - but less than social marketing and backlinking, at least in my case. I'd rather spend my time on creating the best article of its type than on using a strategy I think is fading in value.

    So that's my long-winded explanation/defense of my approach.  I'm not trying to convince people who have success using other methods to change - I certainly wouldn't change what's working!  But I do want folks who are not meeting their goals to realize the rewards are not just short-term - they're long-term, and that there's a cost to any strategy one takes, and that there are options. smile

    1. Pcunix profile image91
      Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      100% in agreement and exactly the point I was making.

  25. Fiction Teller profile image60
    Fiction Tellerposted 13 years ago

    Here is Google's word on link building, for what it's worth (like most help pages, it uses language open to multiple interpretations): … swer=66356

    In a recent interview of a Google employee this week, the staffer basically said that while links are still important to page rank, they have a pretty sophisticated way of valuing some links and devaluing others.

    On Webmasterworld, in the last few weeks a number of webmasters have been talking about websites they have that have recently been penalized.  Anecdotally, it looks like those websites have made massive link-building efforts.

    I don't know what links Google likes or doesn't, but I can guess. 

    It's not that I think all self-created backlinks are bad (although I've never read that Google likes 'em - just that they haven't found a way of fighting 'em yet).  It's that blitzes can backfire, and - my issue in particular - why bother, if there are other ways? 

    Unless you've already optimized as much as you can and improved the article as much as you can and it's still not enough - then I can see why people would bother.

    Or if time is of the essence, or - again, as Nelle and sunforged pointed out - the competition is fierce, then I can see.

    And if the rewards are exponential - like, double the earnings or more - that, too.  (But even then...for me, it would take as much time to create backlinks as it would to create another article, thus earning me twice as much.  So...?)

    And if writers/marketers prefer the activity of backlinking and social media to the activity of improving the article and SEO.  Some really do.  Then I can see. 

    But for some folks, backlinking is really, really hard.  Well, so is article writing for profit.  But it's truly not needed in every case.  There are a lot of lower-competition, high paying niches out there. A lot.  Really.  And there's something called placement targeting, which means your lower-paying niche can become higher-paying over time.

    And there's interest based advertising, which nobody completely understands, but which raises the potential of low-paying niches.

    It's just not that simple for everyone.

    1. Pcunix profile image91
      Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Again, well said and I agree 100%


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