Is link spamming allowed or not? Suggest update to TOS and TLC

1. 83

   Pcunixposted 13 years ago

   Recently, both Mark Knowles and Misha have said that spammy linking is not harmful.  I disagree (search "Google Bowling" to see why) but very little here at HP would support my opinion.
   
   We do have Jason Menayan on September 30th, 2010  at http://blog.hubpages.com/2010/09/the-pa … r-day-hub/ saying:
   
   We strongly suggest everyone read our Learning Center post on backlinking:
   http://learningcenter.hubpages.com/a-gu … cklinking/   We will be detecting and banning accounts that use spammy techniques to get backlinks to newly-published Hubs, so Hubbers should opt for a conservative approach to any backlinking effort.
   
   but nothing like that is stated in the TOS or the Learning Center.
   
   If spammy linking is fine with HP, the TLC should say so.  If it is not, it should say that.
   
   BTW, these "techniques" ARE against Adsense TOS, are they not?

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      WryLiltposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Well it's interesting that some people who are known to "spam" haven't yet got their rolled out Ad Program Invite.
      
      I think HP is still sitting on the fence.

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         Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         That could be just coincidence.
         
         I have asked before that this be clarified and have been ignored.  I think it is very important to clear this up now as people are watching their traffic dry up.

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   ryankettposted 13 years ago

   I suspect that this will relate specifically to the direct backlinking of a hubpage, rather than the backlinking of a backlink

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      Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Indeed - indirect link building is much harder to detect and of course much harder to assign blame.
      
      But we still need clarification of policy.  We have people like Misha and TerryG advising all sorts of behavior that may or may not get people in trouble with Google and may or may not get them in trouble with HP if used against their hubs here.
      
      If HP thinks it is fine, they should say so.  If not, they should say that.

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   Nelle Hoxieposted 13 years ago

   I agree that that a clear and understandable policy would be very good for Hubpages.

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4. 58

   TerryGlposted 13 years ago

   Are you serious.
   
   You joined in a thread http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/69213?page=2 where Mark and Misha gave a response to your rant.
   
   Now you come an start your own thread designed to denigrate Mark and Misha. This is clearly against the terms of service of this forum and is basically a cheap shot.
   
   I have seen this over the last few days (thanks Ryan) and all it does is make the op out to be somewhat a braggart and a coward to use this type of forum in this forum.
   
   You Pcunix are not making friends here. You might need to re-think your position in posting threads on the forum and if you need to remain a member of Hubpages.
   
   For myself, this is totally inappropriate and a personal attack on those that put you back in your place.

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      ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Well, I'm sure you appreciate any opportunity for a free backlink
      
      PCunix has a valid question, based upon a blog post, my reply on here actually suggests that YOUR technique is not one which is picked up on.
      
      If you were to submit a hubpage directly to SlickSubmitter or whatever it is called then I suspect that it would be unpublished, if you submit to a few directories and then backlink those directories then I suspect that it would be outside of the Hubpages remit.

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      Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      A personal attack?
      
      These people and you believe that gaming google is appropriate behavior.  That's fact and it's not an "attack" to say so.
      
      I'm simply asking (again) that HP clarify their position on spammy linking. It would be nice if they covered to whole gamut of black and gray hat SEO, but all I'm asking about is this.

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5. 58

   TerryGlposted 13 years ago

   Ryan first - backlink - what back link? From your last lame attempt on starting a thread I do beleive you owe me an apology. You got shut down in flames. You tool!
   
   Pcunix next - you know as well as I do your garnering support and basically it won't work. You've been here nine months, they have been a lot longer so you really need to back down. I have had my run ins with both Mark and Misha and I would buy them a beer any day, you and Ryan I wouldn't.
   
   Simple..

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      Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      LOL Terry, just give it up, one cannot have a conversation with a broken gramophone.

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      Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I really don't care what you think.
      
      I'm asking for a statement from HP, not you or Misha.

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         TerryGlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Well then why didn't you send them an email rather then trying to have everyone think your something your not and make some you beaut statement to the world like you have just done.
         
         Your not making any friends here at the moment.
         
         Thanks Misha, I seem to agree with you.

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            ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            And if you take exception to this thread then why not send the HP team an email yourself? There is a report button, after all.

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               Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Yes, Terry, please do.
               
               Report me for an imaginary "attack".

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            Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            This topic is "Report a problem or suggest a new feature".  I'm suggesting a needed clarification of policy.

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      ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      No apology forthcoming any time soon, just like that beer I too would happily buy Misha and Mark Knowles a beer, and if he didn't show up wearing that silly wig I would probably buy Pcunix a beer too.
      
      My thread did fail, yes. It failed to recieve any middle ground input. I had people from both extremes, hence the reason I left you all too it and walked off into my happy rosey land of centre ground to perform some moderate backlinking and a bit of market samurai analysis. I had people using automated tools V somebody who sees all SEO as evil; there wasn't a place for a white hatter.

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         TerryGlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Then I expect you will start a new thread titled my apology to TerryGl or do you not have the balls to do that. Being from where you are I don't think you do.
         
         You did say you would give the guy his dues, well start giving.
         
         And thanks for the exposure too, I had a great last two days and the emails I received I would like to forward to you. But then again, I hate to rub it in when someone opens their big mouth like you did and got it all wrong.
         
         Like I said Ryan you have a big mouth and you need to shut it.

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            ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I won't be giving you an apology TerryGI, neither do I believe that you deserve one. Maybe you should thank me for the backlink and the exposure? Nah, didn't think so. I will apologise to the community at large, for inciting argument between Misha, Mark Knowles and Pcunix. I prefer those three to do battle on their own threads.

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               TerryGlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Well hello, who is the liar now. You called me a liar and a Google spammer and when you start a thread that questions my integrity, you don't have the two swingers between your legs to face up to it.
               
               So Ryan who is the one now? Is it the country you live in or just you?  You got plenty of balls to come out with your condescending views but when it comes to admitting your wrong and to give an apology, your the first to back away.

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                  ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  My views haven't changed. People who use article spinners to fill the web with junk don't earn any respect whatsoever from me and that is never going to change. Ever. Sorry, I fail to notice the connection between a forum thread and a country of 66 million, care to elaborate?

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                     TerryGlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Sure I could say plenty. You have it all wrong about spinning. You think put in text press button, new article. I don't. I spin my own unique content to about 350% per cent. That's where you missed the point. I spin the living daylights out of my own work.
                     
                     I spin my own content. PLR I spin up to 600% after I have purchased it. Your barking up the wrong tree with me. My articles are sound, I can assure you. I promote ethical spinning.
                     
                     If you like, I could spin your articles on hubpages, put them on a website and do very well from them.
                     
                     Can you also put up the url of the thread where you apologize to me?

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                        ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        Exactly, my precise point. You could spin my articles, just like so many have done already, that makes me respect you even more And you may be an "ethical" article spinner, if such thing exists, but the hundreds of people that you promote article spinning software to probably aren't. Why can't you sit down and heavily research an article? Then write 1000 words on a topic that you are now a minor-expert at?
                        
                        Then, if you articles earn so much money as you claim, pay an oDesk writer to 're-write' those articles? I paid an Australian guy $3 an article recently, he was skint, begged me for more work. It wasn't even rewrite work, original content. I'll give you his contact details if you want.
                        
                        Now, what does my country do with anything? Feel free to pour vitriol over the United Kingdom, I am intrigued. I have Spanish and Irish in my blood too, feel free to pour vitriol over those. Is it because we buy your houses? Or what? That's the normal line that I get.

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                           Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           You are missing the point Ryan. There is garbage spin, and there is quality spin, and the difference is like between garbage text and quality text. If you take your time to do a quality spin, the resulting articles read as good as original ones.

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                              Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              I almost agree.
                              
                              If you define spinning as coming at the same subject from a different slant or rewriting for a different audience (beginner vs. technical, for example), then yes, there is nothing wrong with that.
                              
                              Rewriting just to get another copy out there is not something I think is proper behavior, but I doubt anybody can ever do anything about it if it is done carefully.  Of course "carefully" could take on new meaning as Google's semantic capabilities improve.

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                     SiddSinghposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     This is the complete sentence, that was asked to be clarified.

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6. 58

   TerryGlposted 13 years ago

   Thanks Misha that's my exact point. Ok Ryan I give you the fact that some do spin unethically. In all my hubpage writing I advocate ethical spinning. I take my work and I spin it. I produce quality stuff that I use for my own benefit. It is also that stuff that allows me to enjoy a home work style.
   
   I do not "work", although I work to keep my accreditation. I don't do black hat. As for blackhat, there is a nice trick or two with Wikipedia that I have at my disposal, but I do not do it. I do not need to.
   
   As for the likes of us backlinking using Sick Submitter EVO11 and anything else we can get our hands on, hell heh we do. Why not. Links means position and position means money. Thats how we make a living off the net. Not a few dollars here and there but thousands of dollars beyond anyone's normal weekly earnings.
   
   Thats why when someone comes along and tells us were unethical we go pith!!

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      Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      So you tell HP to go pith when they say what I quoted in the original post?

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         TerryGlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         No, how did you come to that point. Look, I make a living out of this, I take it seriously. I have all the Adsense tracking script money can buy working on my sites right now, I protect my income. I also work to terms of service and nothing, nothing I do is ever in contravention of any sites terms of service.
         
         I do not want to be rude, but I class myself not as the little guy, but the big guy.  Sure Pc you have been doing this a while, so have I. Sure Ryan has heaps of hubs, good on him and no one can belittle him for trying and he is doing a good job at the same time..
         
         I do take offense when I am accused of spamming search engines, being called a liar or doing anything black hat. I have an ebook on black hat that is sixty pages in length, wrote it myself, so I know what black hat is. Still I do not use it.
         
         Back off with the attacks and take what ever advice comes your way with the blessing it deserves.
         
         And as a point of order, Ryan and you Pcunix need to be more forgiving in your responses then what you are doing at the moment. Back off on your ego's and be the good guy's I and possibly many other hubbers believe you can be.

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         1. 83

            Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Then you'd think that you would be anxious to see the TOS and policies clarified, because they certainly are not clear now.
            
            But, no, you don't want that.  You want to keep on telling people that anything goes, just like Mark and Misha.

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               TerryGlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               PC read that out aloud to yourself and ask yourself was that the right response.

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                  Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, it is the right response.
                  
                  I haven't read your hubs (well - I read one and that was quite enough) so I don't know where you stand on spammy link building.  I do know where Misha stands and where Mark stands, but the important thing is where HP stands.  That's what I have asked for here.  I don't care what you think.

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                     TerryGlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Care to define what you think spammy link building is?

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                        Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        I could, but that would just be my opinion.
                        
                        As you saw in my OP, Jason Menayan said that HP will be "detecting and banning accounts that use spammy techniques to get backlinks to newly-published Hubs", but HP has not said what "spammy techniques" are.
                        
                        It's their opinion that matters - if Jason's statement is even policy at all, which is not clear either.  If they say anything goes, than no definition is needed.  If they say his statement is true, they need to set the parameters.

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      ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I am happy to agree to us being very different people. I am also extremely proud of the fact that I "enjoy a home work style" by earning "Not a few dollars here and there but thousands of dollars" through pure hard work and without the use of a single article spinner and without any automated backlink submitter (I am using one for a domain only). You seem to be assuming that I work the 9-5. But I am happy to leave you alone, it is up to Hubpages whether they condone you or not, and it looks as if they do. So fine, carry on doing what you are doing unless you are told otherwise. It is not my place to decide that, even if it would be the stance that I personally would take (and will take on my own mini-content farm).

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         TerryGlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Good one Ryan, I take that as your apology then. Good to see the UK lives strong.

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            ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            This has nothing to do with the UK, unless you explain how.
            
            Is this an apology? Perhaps. It is not an apology for holding the views that I do, not in the slightest, I strongly stick by those. Maybe this is a slight admission that I shouldn't have called you out individually, and that if I had wanted to make it public I should have identified that there were numerous hubbers taking the same approach. And that, in addition, my gripe is with Hubpages for condoning this practice rather than those who perform them. How is that?

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               Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Well, it is HP's choice as to what they allow.
               
               The point is that right now they are sending mixed messages.  It's way past time to straighten it all out.

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               TerryGlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               That's fine Ryan, if you said that to me in the pub two days ago, then you would probably be waking up this Saturday in hospital. It was a cheap shot and you should not have done it. No one likes being called a lair.
               
               It was un-deserved of me to receive what you did. Sure we agree to disagree, we both agree on one thing, I don't like you and you don't like me.
               
               If you have a beef with hubpages then that's not me. We'll leave it at that, I wont jump on your threads nor follow your posts.

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                  ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I'm glad that we can agree to just hate each other and leave it other alone, although threats of violence are unneccesary. Trying to put me in hospital two days ago would have resulted in your legs being broken, seeing as I had about thirty lads out for my birthday and several had just got back from a nice leisurely tour of Aghanistan.

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                     TerryGlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Well there you go, lucky me. You don't want to know who I was with two days ago. There would have been no way any one of us would have been looking at each other.

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                        ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        Well it would have had to have been Chopper Read

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                           TerryGlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           Or the Anderson twins!!

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                  Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  That's absolutely true, except in my case it's not really a "beef".  I personally detest the kinds of things you and Misha do, but there is nothing illegal about them and you are hardly unique. It's HP's business what they allow and do not allow.
                  
                  The point here is only to ask HP to clarify its policies on spammy linking.  If they say it is not allowed, then they need to define it.  If it is allowed, then anything goes. 
                  
                  I wish they'd take on the whole area of SEO and define what is and is not acceptable here, but as the only comment so far was about spammy link building (quoted in my OP), that's enough for now.

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                     ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     I would be happy with that too. Hey, if they want me to use article spinners and backlink tools I will. No sweat off of my back, for now I will experiment using only my own cheap domains.

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                     TerryGlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     And, exactly what is it that I do?

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                        Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        I'm not going to give you a link, Terry.
                        
                        You know what you do.  If HP says that's all fine, so be it.  But people need to know whether following your advice is fine or not, and right now they do not.

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                           TerryGlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           See there's the problem right there. You heard the term Google Bombing, Spammy Links Jason Menhayan, Terms of Service and spammy techniques.  You come on the forum and call us out saying "you know what you do" and cannot for the life of you back it up.
                           
                           You told me you know what I do and when I ask you don't reply - why - because you don't know what I do.
                           
                           You quote spammy links and do not know what a spammy link is.
                           
                           You read Jason's name on Hubpages blog.
                           
                           Google Bomb was something quoted by someone else.
                           
                           See, you know nothing. Your not a computer consultant at all. I bet your typing from a Commodore 64 as we speak.
                           
                           You have lost all credibility with me Pcunix.

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                              Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              I assure you I care not at all about your opinions.
                              
                              Once again, I am simply asking for HP to clarify their staff members statements.  I want HP's opinions. not yours or Misha's.
                              
                              For some reason, you seem to not want that to happen.   I can only guess as to why.

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                                 Jason Menayanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 What clarification are you looking for?
                                 
                                 I'm not a moderator so I'm not involved with the specifics, but you will not get a precise definition. Spammers have a tendency to ask for specific parameters so they can run as close as possible to violating our policy without doing so.
                                 
                                 We have been and will continue to ban accounts that use spammy techniques to build links.
                                 
                                 Since this has become yet another thread where a handful of people attack each other, I'm closing it.

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                              Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              Did he have any? How can a man who seriously argues that you can see ad link destination address in the status bar when you hover your mouse cursor over adsense ads be taken seriously at all?

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                                 Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 
                                 
                                 You will never let that go, will you?
                                 
                                 I admitted my error, Misha - I even wrote a Hub about it. 
                                 
                                 I was thinking of something else that day and said something stupid.  Big deal.

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      2. 83

         Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Exactly.  That's why you would think these folks would welcome a very clear statement of policy rather than objecting loudly to my call for it.
         
         It's not up to you or me, it's up to HP and THEY need to make it clear.

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   TerryGlposted 13 years ago

   OK, for the un-initiated spam is defined as:
   
   Spam is the use of electronic messaging systems (including most broadcast media, digital delivery systems) to send unsolicited bulk messages indiscriminately.
   
   Now that is a quote from Wikipedia. The next topic is forum spam. Nothing about spammy links.
   
   I know links and I have never seen a spammy link ever. Pcunix your the computer expert, give me an example of a spammy link.

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      Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      The OP is  Jason Menayan making a statement in response to Misha bragging about creating thousands of backlinks using automated software.
      
      That's spammy linking techniques, which is what is being discussed here.  We have no knowledge that these are forum spam or not.

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   TerryGlposted 13 years ago

   Then why not send them an email?
   
   Why call me out?
   
   Why call Mark and Misha out?
   
   As to my opinion, when you said you were leaving Hubpages I was the one who said don't slam the door.

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