Cell Consciousness

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marinealways24posted 13 years ago
This has been argued in other threads, but I feel it needed a thread of it's own.

Do you think that it is possible for consciousness to start at the cellular level, why or why not?

I think there is good evidence to show cells have a level of consciousness.

One example is communication between cells. The cells contain specific protein receptors in the cell membrane that send molecular signals throughout the cells. Through conscious communication, the cells group together forming protective barriers that decide which materials are needed for survival while rejecting harmful ones.

Do cells display conscious reactions for survival?
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  msorenssonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes.
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Colebabieposted 13 years ago
Yes. They realize the presence of themselves and other cells and work together. Activating and deactivating for a purpose.
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You Cole.
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Colebabieposted 13 years ago
No problem
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  rebekahELLEposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  hi cole, haven't seen you for a while.
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  Colebabieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I know!! I can't wait until May when I finally graduate and have some more free time. Although I did just apply for a teaching position that is 48 hours a week I'm always a busy busy girl. I miss you guys though.
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  rebekahELLEposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  exciting! you should be so proud of yourself, what a great accomplishment.
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rebekahELLEposted 13 years ago
I believe this could be true. each cell having a single cell consciousness. the brain is composed of a colony of cells, not one single life unit. everything connects and communicates.

such a fascinating topic.
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srwnsonposted 13 years ago
I think that consciousness does start at the cellular level; However self awarness is another story.

This question is an on-going debate among abortionists and anti-abortionists.
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marinealways24posted 13 years ago
Thank You all for your answers. I also don't think our consciousness would be possible if the cells didn't have a level of consciousness. Does this mean we can alter our cells by conscious thoughts or actions?
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  rebekahELLEposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  why not? I believe we can do much more than we could imagine, even doctors have said this in relation to miracles in the operating room, etc.
  
  have you read any of Gregg Braden's work?
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nope, never read him. But it seems possible that thoughts could change the cells in instances like stress causing heart attacks.
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  Obscure Divineposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think there will be a lot more research done in the future, that studies the concepts of "mind over body" and/or how our thoughts can effect the human body, along with the healing powers of the mind. Interesting stuff...
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Colebabieposted 13 years ago
Sure sometimes. Our actions affect our stress level. Our immune system is affected by stress. And so leukocytes probably are affected.
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marinealways24posted 13 years ago
I am "amazed" that no one has said it is ridiculous for cells to have a consciousness. Is our consciousness raising?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well - you have redefined the word "consciousness" to the point where it basically has no meaning. No food for thought for me I'm afraid. Not got anything to add to your assertions that cells are conscious and scientists are scared. I guess all animate life is conscious, according to your new definition. Sorry.
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Could a cell have awareness of other cells without the ability of consciousness? How is that?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Did you even bother reading what I wrote?
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes I read it. Do you disagree that awareness and consciousness are linked?
  
  Either the leading scientists are holding back on claiming cell consciousness or they don't know. I find it hard to believe that they don't know. Many that aren't scientists can see that cells have a level of consciousness or awareness or they wouldn't be alive.
  
  If all cells are conscious, all life is conscious. How are my definitions wrong? Because I refer to mechanisms as consciousness?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Really - what did I say exactly?
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It seems that you agree all cells are conscious.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Dear me. Too lazy even to read what I wrote.
  
  ciao
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If the assertions were incorrect, maybe you would have a point to add for why cells aren't conscious, instead, you circle and run.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree cells are conscious by your definition. That is why I have nothing to add. Yes - cells are conscious - as is all life. Not sure why you want me to attempt to disprove a blanket, baseless, meaningless statement. Sure - you are right. Leaves are conscious as well. When the wind blows, they decide to move.
  
  Yes - nothing to add.
  
  Well done.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How about when leaves 'turn-over' before a storm? I have witnessed this occurance many times, and have even used it to know when to go home.
  
  No wind involved, and yet a 'conscious' decision was made and an action taken... By a plant and it's leaves.
  
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Like I said - everything is conscious according to the marine. So - humans = no different - nothing special here. 'Zactlky the same. Nothing to discuss.
  
  What was the kwestion again? Oh yes - why won't anyone argue with me?
  
  Dear me.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God dunnit.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Yea....maybe...
  
  I think it is probably something to do with electricity in the air...environmental changes, barometric pressure possibly...
  
  But I guess those could be called acts of God.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you were genuinely interested - instead of calling it "conscious," you would have found out. I am fairly sure they will be some environmental reaction involved. Which marine calls "conscious" and make the word meaningless.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If?
  
  Found out what...and isn't that what we are trying to do...find out I mean?
  
  and I don't think it is Marine's intention to make the definition of consciousness meaningless, but to define it better, and come to a greater understanding.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL Sure.
  
  Please define "consciousness" for me.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think that is the point. We aren't sure, I listed a couple definitions earlier.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So what is the point of making assertions that leaves turn over "consciously."? Confused.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You don't want 'me' to go there...cause I'm a believer...and you know where it will lead me.
  
  So where do those thoughts lead you?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So - what? You are arguing to prove your ridiculous beliefs rather than looking for knowledge? Because you already know.
  
  Um - that is what I thought.
  
  Good for you - now stop pretending you are interested in learning anything or coming to a greater understanding.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ok maybe I need to ask someone who isn't so fearful of a trap of some kind.
  
  I wonder where shades is....
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So - you are a believer. You cannot define consciousness and your question was, "where do those thoughts lead you?"
  
  I already told you -
  
  God dunnit.
  
  Wat more do you want? LOL
  
  Fairly sure I already explained that without an agreed upon definition of the word "consciousness" the Kwestion is meaningless.
  
  Or do you disagree? - and have an answer all ready to go that you will defend.........
  
  So - once again - what is the point of making assertions that leaves turn over "consciously."? Confused.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You don't believe in God, so you're saying the make-believe sky-Fairy did it. That means your not taking me or the discussion seriously.
  
  Which is why I am looking for an atheist that isn't afraid of examining the truth, without knowing where it might lead. Be that to a new found proof in the existence of God, or in proof to the contrary...or to nothing at all except possibly more questions....
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I will examine the truth any time.
  
  What is the truth exactly?
  
  Let us examine it together.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I was trying, but I've given up on you. I'll wait for someone else, thanks though.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No really. I am here - you asked me and I am willing.
  
  Lets go.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ok then re-read my posts in the thread and tell me what you think.
  
  {The questions being: What is consciousness? and can/do cells of plants and animlas have it?}
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think you are making assumptions and dodging the questions.
  
  As an example;
  
  When I asked :
  
  You replied:
  
  So - what exactly is the truth you are interested in examining?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Well - you have redefined the word "consciousness" to the point where it basically has no meaning. No food for thought for me I'm afraid. Not got anything to add to your assertions that cells are conscious and scientists are scared. I guess all animate life is conscious, according to your new definition. Sorry."
  
  since even in the Stanford definition of consciousness it states that there is no agreed upon definition, how could Marine be changing it?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well - what is the definition that marine is using?
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Consciousness = Life
  
  Unconscious life does not have conscious reactions. Conscious reactions start on the cellular level, consciousness of cells in the environment along with consciousness of threats to the cell life.
  It could also be said they have awareness rather than consciousness, both are linked, just used differently at times.
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  Obscure Divineposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you wasn't so deranged in thought, I wouldn't like ya. Earth-bound insanity does equal universal sanity. The sad part is, you may end up arguing about consciousness with people that actually have no argument. Ha-ha!
  I guess some folks get defensive, when they contemplate about a universal totality of awareness that doesn't involve doctrines and/or silly religious dogmas, since they have no source to point the finger at with ridicule. LOL!
  It is like you have rebelled upon religions and atheists, at the same time; fun stuff. I agree, the contest is noteworthy...
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hello partner of madness.
  I don't know if I am really looking for an argument rather than a strong debate with evidence proving consciousness doesn't start at the cellular level. It is something that looks obvious to me and to a lot of others including you and many more that have posted. I honestly haven't seen one strong argument against cells having consciousness. You are right, take away a belief or non belief title for someone to draw assumptions, they can't draw as many assumptions.
  I am against both atheists and religionist, I favor nontitlists. Most often, when someone accepts a belief or non belief title, they are biased to only believing that belief or non belief title believes.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  lol...
  
  isn't non-title-ist a title...
  
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps no aspect of mind is more familiar or more puzzling than consciousness and our conscious experience of self...
  The problem of consciousness is arguably the central issue in current theorizing about the mind.
  Despite the lack of any agreed upon theory of consciousness, there is a widespread, if less than universal, consensus that an adequate account of mind requires a clear understanding of it and its place in nature. We need to understand both what consciousness is and how it relates to other, non-conscious, aspects of reality.
  
  That has been argued. Since consciousness is only available for consideration within the 'brain' or unit where the processing takes place. Anything outside of it, meaning non-conscious, does not necessarily need to relate those tasks of the mind, as they are represented through process or thought. Thus, the elemental/fundamental use of thought is limited...
  
  This is a huge piece of my book. In layman's terms:
  consciousness is finite and beyond consciousness infinite.
  The très priori is only required by the creation, as that creation was designed.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ass umptions stolen from a book.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  i was using a piece of his post marcus.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ok...go slow or you're going to lose me again. That priori thing still confounds me.
  
  I'm going to keep re-reading your post and add to this response, so give it a few minutes...
  
  I believe that the contention that Marine and myself and a few others have is that consciousness exists outside of entities that have a brain, plants for example.
  
  Awareness is what the brain brings to the equation, not consciousness itself.
  
  The rest of that paragraph is beyond me.{done adding now}
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  at the cell level, everything has instinct -or a base consciousness.
  a 'brain' as we perceive it does not exist in plants, but they have a brain, else the data necessary to perform those functions of grow, take in/expels odixes, close petals, etc. would not occur.
  
  is it in the DNA fabric then? I would say yes.
  
  Humans have a brain unit to perform and store much more information as well as that genetic bootstrap program.
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't even think it's a word. How can something thats not a word be a title?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, define consciousness as it is defined by established sources, cite source please. Be a good Uke this time.
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Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years ago
Possibly, or maybe you/we are merely communicating better. Thinking first and not doing the knee-jerk, that hasn't ever been said before therefore it has to be wrong thing...

It is a fascinating subject/concept, it reeks of possibilities and possible truths, and it is causing me to think alot... When I have thought enough to be able to give you a coherent opinion I will...

Carry on...
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You Mikel. I appreciate that.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I will say where I am so far.
  
  Humanity as a whole is made up of a multitude of smaller organisms, we call the smaller organisms humans/individuals... each one is coherent and conscious by itself but when linked together they become smarter than any 1 'cell'... so if it is true at that level, then it is probably true at other smaller levels... and that leads me to other 'bigger' levels as well, such as solar systems...planets...
  
  So what exactly is 'Consciousness'...the God spark? That which animates life? The life force? Thought...communication, just the ability to communicate? ...
  
  according to Wiki:
  Consciousness is subjective experience or awareness or wakefulness or the executive control system of the mind.
  
  Mind, not brain...
  
  according to Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
  Consciousness-
  
  Perhaps no aspect of mind is more familiar or more puzzling than consciousness and our conscious experience of self and world. The problem of consciousness is arguably the central issue in current theorizing about the mind. Despite the lack of any agreed upon theory of consciousness, there is a widespread, if less than universal, consensus that an adequate account of mind requires a clear understanding of it and its place in nature. We need to understand both what consciousness is and how it relates to other, nonconscious, aspects of reality.
  http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/
  
  again Mind not brain...
  
  Mind to me is the intangible thing that the brain produces, or that intangible thing that is read/realized by the brain... perhaps something without a brain simply does what one that has a brain does without being aware of the act itself? Being unaware of the act, it cannot choose... hence the brain is what allows us freewill and the ability to choose?
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Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years ago
@ Mark:

I posted this----> I will say where I am so far.

Humanity as a whole is made up of a multitude of smaller organisms, we call the smaller organisms humans/individuals... each one is coherent and conscious by itself but when linked together they become smarter than any 1 'cell'... so if it is true at that level, then it is probably true at other smaller levels... and that leads me to other 'bigger' levels as well, such as solar systems...planets...

So what exactly is 'Consciousness'...the God spark? That which animates life? The life force? Thought...communication, just the ability to communicate? ...

according to Wiki:
Consciousness is subjective experience or awareness or wakefulness or the executive control system of the mind.

Mind, not brain...

according to Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
Consciousness-

Perhaps no aspect of mind is more familiar or more puzzling than consciousness and our conscious experience of self and world. The problem of consciousness is arguably the central issue in current theorizing about the mind. Despite the lack of any agreed upon theory of consciousness, there is a widespread, if less than universal, consensus that an adequate account of mind requires a clear understanding of it and its place in nature. We need to understand both what consciousness is and how it relates to other, nonconscious, aspects of reality.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/

again Mind not brain...

Mind to me is the intangible thing that the brain produces, or that intangible thing that is read/realized by the brain... perhaps something without a brain simply does what one that has a brain does without being aware of the act itself? Being unaware of the act, it cannot choose... hence the brain is what allows us freewill and the ability to choose?

What do you think?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  With you. Humans - individuals. Humanity - all humans. OK
  
  Not so much - plenty are just following along and plenty are not coherent -
  
  You also need to explain in exact terms what you mean by this new word, "conscious"
  
  Cell? What cell?
  
  Linked together? What do you mean? Linked together how exactly?
  
  Smarter? - no. I see the opposite actually.
  
  It is not true on that level, so this all falls apart.
  
  You are the one making the assertions that humans are 'conscious' - but you don't know what that means?
  
  Lost me. Please define this word that you assert us humans are.
  
  Lost me again. Too many assertions and questions. I mean - you are making an assertion that humans are conscious, but then cannot define that word.
  
  Perhaps if you started by defining that - then moved on to the rest?
  
  I prefer "self aware," a la Descartes myself.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I was using the term cells as:
  Cells are things that make up greater/bigger things. A cell in the human condition being the individual, with humanity being the whole that the grouped cells make up.
  
  Humans working in teams would be joined/grouped, and we are usually smarter/stronger when working together in groups or teams.
  
  The assumption that humans are coherent (can stand alone/work alone) and are conscious, if we aren't generally conscious (based on the best current definitions of the concept) then who/what is?
  
  Des Cartes used self-aware to describe conscious-ness...
  
  I think therefore I am.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  OK
  
  Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Ever heard the term "too many cooks spoil the broth"? You think Einstein would have worked better as apart of a team?
  
  Please define this term.
  
  Yes. I like that definition and I do not think it applies at a cellular level. And I am using the word "cell" in it's accepted meaning "the smallest part of an animal or plant that is able to function independently." rather than your new meaning. I do not think an individual "cell" in my body is self-aware. I imagine - if that were the case - many of them would have abandoned ship long since.
  
  Still - what was this truth you wanted to explore with an atheist?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  consciousness...what it is.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You already decided that humans have it.
  
  But - you don't know what it is?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  exactly.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I see.
  
  So - how do you know humans have it if you do not know what it is?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I Think, Therefore I Am....
  
  What AM I Again?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are a - for want of a better term - clever monkey.
  
  That is the truth you were looking to explore with an atheist?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes because for me the answer is simple.
  
  Consciousness is the God spark. That intangible thing that God is. The animating force in the lives of all life forms, including plants and livings things that have no brain. Plants decide to grow in a shape that causes them to retain water, and allows them to catch needed sources of protein, because 'consciousness' decides for them that it is in their best interests. Or in other words, God decides for them and makes it so.
  
  Consciousness is that 'thing' that is the part of humanity that is in the likeness of God. The immortal soul.
  
  But since you don't believe in God it must be something else to you. I am curious as to what it is to you.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So - you were just selling your ridiculous beliefs. I thought so. Oh well - not sure what you even asked the Kwestion for - as expected - you have a meaningless answer.
  
  Thanks for being so predictable. I don't have an easy peasy answer for you. There is no doubt in my mind that consciousness as I understand it does not apply to plants.
  
  Exploring the truth = telling us what you believe. LOLOLOLOLOL
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No I was guardingly NOT sharing my beliefs because I know what your reaction to them are. I was wanting to learn what you believed about it, and why.
  
  Obviously I should have stuck to my earlier stance of giving up on you, and waited for someone else.
  
  Peace and Love.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But - you cannot even define the word, just sed "god dunnit"
  
  Seriously - the dishonesty of people such as yourself is one of the many, many reasons I do not subscribe to the "god dunnit" approach.
  
  Really - Consciousness is the god spark in everything?
  
  Dear me.
  
  How is that "exploring the truth"?
  
  You already have an easy peasy answer.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, again my answer is not correct in your opinion.
  
  So What IS?
  
  Define consciousness...that is the question.
  
  asking me to define it for you so you can define it is silly. Especially when my definition is not acceptable to you out of religious bias.
  
  So...again...What is consciousness?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What is what? You cannot even frame the question.
  
  God dunnit.
  
  No - that is not even an answer. Except for people like you. I am sure it makes you feel better to have this easy peasy answer.
  
  You are the one making the assertion that humans are "conscious". Then when I ask what that means you say "God dunnit" and all thing shave it.
  
  I am satisfied with - "I don't know."
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not. But since you don't know you can't tell me I'm wrong.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I know. You will take the easy peasy answer any day. Not good enough for me. Still - I am sure you now feel qualified to bless me in the name of the easy peasy answer.
  
  Easy peasy. You cain't disprove it - Mikel must be right.
  
  LOLOLOLOLO
  
  Thanks for being sooooo prediktabel.
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  lol You are messing me up with all of the hard questions at the same time. Easy questions are alright all at one time.
  On the brain and mind, i'm not so sure they aren't actually the same. Possibly in our strive for higher consciousness, we labeled mind to separate ourselves from other animals that have brains. What do you think?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If Brain and Mind are the same then plants cannot be conscious because they don't possess a brain, and then neither can cells, because brain cells are not a brain but merely a part of one...
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, but the plants have cells that exibit conscious/subconscious reactions to the environment. The cell has a membrain.
  Possibly the brain evolved in us for our higher consciousness of needing to store more information from generation to generation.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  AHHH....
  
  How do you make a smiley with smoke coming out its ears?
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know, but the smoke will cloud your conscious. lol
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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Jewelsposted 13 years ago
Unconscious reactions can start at the cellular level.

You don't have to be conscious of your cells at an individual level in order for them to function.

Consciousness = life

Consciousness does not necessarily = awareness.

Awareness is consciousness knowing it's conscious.

Life does not necessarily = intelligence. Yet human intelligence 'could be' seen as completely different to the intelligence of a plant. Unless you become the plant, can you ever satisfactorily answer the question "does a plant have an awareness of itself?" I think not.

Does the cell have 'knowhow'? When an individual has awareness of the cell, does that cell then function at a more optimum level?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ok just because the whole (the person) is unconscious, doesn't mean the individual cell is.
  
  Not being aware of the cells or not doesn't demonstrate whether they are conscious or not.
  
  I'm not sure I agree that consciousness=life, Life has as a part of it possibly consciousness, but there are forms of life that don't have consciousness...i.e.??? fire,no hmmm...maybe you're right...
  
  and the rest of your statement I agree with.
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  Jewelsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Fire does have consciousness, it has life. From the human standpoint it doesn't have intelligence. Or does it?
  
  I agree the cell is not unconscious. It is conscious but we, the ones with the ability to be aware, are not aware that the cell is there, except we are told it is.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  according to the movie 'Back Draft' it does...lol
  
  as to the awareness of the cells being there, being told they are, makes us aware that they are there.
  
  aware/knowing
  
  conscious/?being?
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Jewelsposted 13 years ago
Again humans generally are not very aware of their consciousness, their life, their functionality either at a cellular level or intelligence level.

So to say humans are conscious is not true, they are very unaware, living in more of an unconscious state. This is the definition of the term sleeper.
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Twenty One Daysposted 13 years ago
Awareness is simply active data.
Consciousness is the total collection of that data with the ability and desire to process it.

The 'program' was always there.

And like all creatures, each 'program' is designed according to its kind. The mind of a frog is not the mind of a goat, etc; et all share basic bootstrap programs. Eat, sleep, do-do, grow, etc. So in that sense everything has a basic intelligence.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  like someone else posted...DOS is consciousness and windows is awareness?
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  sure.
  the boot disk is instinct, even at the cell level { mitosis }
  the operating system the brain.
  the disk space determines how much can be stored.
  
  If it is Windows, a lot of programs are crashing..lol
  I prefer mac.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We agree on something. !
  
  Actually - with the slow rib cooking - that is twice.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I would say:
  The boot disk as instinct...ok
  The operating systems... learned behavior/education/possibly awareness
  the disk space... Brain size and intelligence
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  i dispute eduction via equality of species.
  grasshoppers are all the same intellect.
  humans the same.
  humans have the ability to activate or deactivate information, thus the assumption of smart/not smart. a smart person simply has most active data/awareness than the other.
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Jewelsposted 13 years ago
Mark Descartes has missed allot. We think therefore I am is very true. But our thinking is extremely limited which is why what we think creates our limited realities. Which is why most people are not living to their fullest capacity. Which is why people look outside themselves (to a church for example) for deliverance. When in fact they have everything within themselves if they could only broaden their states of mind beyond their social upbringings.

Social upbringing is extremely limited, confined in the modern world to materialism, the opposite of which is a more internal state of being, ie self pleasure as opposed to physical objects as pleasure. (That is of course another topic).

It is true your thinking is the prime reason for being f*cked in the head (excuse the graphics), or not. But there is so much beyond the thinking mind, as usually the thinking mind is a cesspool of blah blah blah. Believe it or not there is major bliss beyond thoughts. You just have to get the hell out of the mind (without drugs).
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely. I do my best thinking on an Aikido mat when all I am doing is blending with my attackers.
  
  Went for a two hour mountain bike ride on Saturday. Same thing. Despite the pain of falling off rather heavily.
  
  I do like Descartes - especially when taken in context.
  
  Mind. No mind.
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  Jewelsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ouch, hope it didn't hurt too much.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Landed in a bramble bush, so - no serious pain, because it cushioned the fall, but I am covered in scratches.
  
  Not as young as I used to be.....
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Twenty One Daysposted 13 years ago
the très priori:

consider, collect, conclude.
pre-action, action, reaction.
question, process, answer.

preriori, priori, posteriori
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I understand that, but I find it difficult to make the meanings of three words mean a single thing, the lumping together of humid, rain and thunderstorm throws me...it is either one or other...
  
  In English isn't tres priori just a rational thought process?
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  which is consciousness, correct.
  again, it is all rationed, ratios, rationale.
  the 'process' is the middle area between question/answer or better said consideration/conclusion.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ok then it is simply what we are doing or trying to do in this thread.
  
  But I don't believe that is what consciousness is. The thought process may be a part of consciousness, but I don't believe it is the whole ball of wax...so to speak.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  there are two primary explanations of core consciousness:
  
  -totality : a complete set of instructions pre-implanted to allow complete ability.
  -active developed: perceived thought in motion, which concludes learning or evolving from-into. (which to me is awareness or active or dormant consciousness )
  
  so I am not sure which one we are splicing, maybe both? jeje.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Do you have sources? (definitions because my definition sources don't say that.)
  
  But I think I understand what you're saying...how scary is that...
  
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  lol. indeed.
  i'll be back. gotta put my boy to bed.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  it is all three but one.
  much like everything else in the universe.
  
  light is one thing with three main variations: rays, optic, waves
  like water: solid, liquid, vapor.
  atoms: proton, neutron, electron.
  
  yada yada yada.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ok...parts or varying stages of a concept...
  
  past;present;future
  cold;tepid;hot
  
  ok how do you apply it to consciousness again?
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  question . process/think . answer
  
  I use the 'echo' effect in my book-in-progress' to visualize consciousness. Shout in a canyon, the sound is absorbed all over the place and echos back (reflects). Just like light, it projects, absorbs and reflects. The absorbing is magnetic or polar equal, which is why we can see colors, etc. Works in our imaginations the same way, same elemental energy that allows thought.
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marinealways24posted 13 years ago
Mark Knowles: Thanks for being so predictable. I don't have an easy peasy answer for you. There is no doubt in my mind that consciousness as I understand it does not apply to plants.

Yes, but you do admit to them having an awareness. What is the main difference of awareness and consciousness to you?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes - you are right. As I understand you to be using the word, everything is conscious. Conscious=life.
  
  I never admitted any such thing marine. Awareness? Yes - everything is aware by your definitions. Yes - scientists must be scared of your new "gnostic" knowledge. Design? Ah - a new word to mean - 'anything that exists' I guess?
  
  Science has designed consciousness. Please prove otherwise.
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Science has altered consciousness, but not designed it from scratch. Can't answer questions without throwing darts trying to assume my motives and belief can you?
  You never admitted what, you admitted the tree had awareness on the other thread. If you disagree with my definitions, explain why you disagree with them.
  Guess what, without design, we might not know we exist. Can unconscious cells design a conscious being?
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marinealways24posted 13 years ago
Science seems to know the design of a cell, then why can't science design a cell? Possibly because science can't design consciousness?
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marinealways24posted 13 years ago
No rebuttal that you are conscious of plants having awareness Knowles?
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