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jump to last post 1-5 of 5 discussions (49 posts)

Unconscious Cells?

  1. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 8 years ago

    How do unconscious cells form a conscious body and mind?

    1. Rafini profile image88
      Rafiniposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      (psst) science calls it evolution   hmm

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Well, the body and mind do evolve from evolution of cells, but what is the scientific evidence that the cells aren't conscious?

        1. profile image0
          Justine76posted 8 years agoin reply to this

          I didn't know there was any? How would anyone know, unless thier cells suddnely revolted and said something like..hey, I dont like being your mind.

    2. profile image0
      crmhaskeposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I believe the whole is not always merely the sum of its parts, to believe otherwise is reductionism - I am no reductionist.

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 8 years agoin reply to this

        So how do you think an unconscious process arrives to design a conscious product?

        1. profile image0
          crmhaskeposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Complexity always produces anomalies that are not characteristic of its parts.  The question you pose is not one of science, but of philosophy.

          1. marinealways24 profile image60
            marinealways24posted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Philosophy designs science. What to you rules out cells being conscious, they communicate, reproduce, respond to their environment, the same basic conscious survival instincts that all other life show in adapting to the environment. What scientifically rules out the cells having consciousness?

            1. profile image0
              crmhaskeposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              I have the same proof for unconscious, as anyone has for conscious - nothing.

              And that is why this is still a philosophical discussion, and not a scientific one.  Both sides have equal "proof."

              1. marinealways24 profile image60
                marinealways24posted 8 years agoin reply to this

                lol There is not equal proof. There is far more logical proof leading to them having a level of consciousness, do you at least concede they have awareness of their environment and other cells to communicate with?

                It is only illogical to think unconscious cells could be the building blocks of conscious life.

                1. profile image0
                  crmhaskeposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  Your only argument is that the sum must be equal to its parts - that is hardly an argument at all.

                  If they were conscious, they'd be much more chaotic.  Attributing human qualities, to non-human entities is anthropomorphism.  Just because you can't understand anything differently, that doesn't mean it's just like us.

                  Man created God in his image for a reason.

                  1. marinealways24 profile image60
                    marinealways24posted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    lol That is not the only argument and you know it. Cell communication, cell defenses in creating antibodies display consciousness and awareness, yet you will not acknowledge these as consciousness. This is scientifically avoiding the truth.

                    You don't think they are chaotic? Have you ever seen sperm compete to make you? That was pretty fkn chaotic considering most of them died and went threw hell to come out as your beautiful being that you are today. You are the origin of chaos just like everything else. The big bang was chaos. I think you are the one that doesn't understand. Man created God for control and comfort from this existence of chaos.

    3. rebekahELLE profile image88
      rebekahELLEposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      life.

    4. waynet profile image73
      waynetposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Well the body and mind has to do something bad to get unconscious and then thrown into the prison cells...being drunk could help!

      Will sleep on it in my prison cell...

  2. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 8 years ago

    there are no 'unconscious cells' just one's 'unaware' that they exist. cool

    1. Jewels profile image83
      Jewelsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      smile

  3. Shadesbreath profile image86
    Shadesbreathposted 8 years ago

    It started as stimulus-response.  Evolutionary principles rewarded effective response traits and disfavored others. (A deer that reacts slowly dies and doesn't pass its genes forward; an amoeba that is slow to recognize it's bumped against an edible morsel will give one with quicker response the meal allowing it to grow more quickly and cell-divide sooner, pushing it's genetic meterial out in greater numbers sooner.)

    Recognition of opportunity and threats allow the more cognizant primates (and other creatures) to procure more resources and live longer, both working to push their genetic material forward.

    This sequence, over millions of years, refined the cognitive process to such a degree that the capacity to recognize opportunity became curiosity, and, in stages became the intelligence we have now, which, by the nature of advantage seeking and curiosity, can't help but seek to understand the nature of itself to divine what advantage that might bring, thus qualifying as "self aware" and perhaps the "conscious" you mean outside of just being awake and moving about.

    Least, that's how I see it based on what I've read and observed to date.  Feel free to insert God's hand at any point in the process if it makes you more comfortable.  It might well have been a god that set it into motion, or intervened at some point a long the way, but that changes nothing in how the process appears to have unfolded.  I think reading that Adam lept up out of the dirt and was like, "Oh yeah, I'm here now, baby!" may be a bit literal.  God may have had more patience than that.

  4. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 8 years ago

    consciousness is one of those well suited arguments against the present ideology of evolution. If an amoeba were both conscious and aware, would it choose to become asparagus and why? Asparagus contains the same fundamental energy as water or placebo or fossil fuel. Why would this singular 'perfect' unit 'decide' to multiple and become a massive array of tissue, bone, gluten based unit called a brain and rationalize the possibility of its existence is limited to only instinct? furthermore, why would it consider the possibility of something greater than itself? Why Strive if it is aware of what is and its ultimate mutation...

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Consciousness designs evolution. It is the conscious thoughts that design the physical changes. Consider how many conscious and complex cells it takes to make a humans level of consciousness. Ameoba is certainly not on the collective consciousness as a human. If any life already knew it's destination, would it continue striving to be aware?

      1. Jewels profile image83
        Jewelsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Your standpoint is always that of the human one and so your conclusions are always based on a human array of thought patterns, logic, rational thinking mixed with scientific exploration in some parts.  To start comparing human rationale to a plant's is fruitless.  You would need to be a plant to understand the consciousness of a plant.  Perhaps change your terminology and have respect for plant consciousness enough to understand you don't have it.

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 8 years agoin reply to this

          lol I never said the level of consciousness was the same, I have always said there are different levels of consciousness.

    2. Pandoras Box profile image66
      Pandoras Boxposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Consciousness doesn't necessarily mean free will, I would think.

  5. Pandoras Box profile image66
    Pandoras Boxposted 8 years ago

    From Marine's Link:

    "Life started about 4 billion years ago-simple life, algae, and so forth. Then came the nucleated cell, then eukaryotic cells, but still, life evolved very minimally, reaching only very simple multicellular organisms until about 540 million years ago. Then, abruptly, there was this huge acceleration in evolution, which is called the "Cambrian Explosion."

    "Within 10 million years, all the phyla that exist today formed, and life took off. Why? Well, there are a lot of possible reasons. But it turns out that the size of the organisms at the beginning of the Cambrian explosion very closely matched what we would predict for conscious experience. They were small worms and tiny sea urchins. Fossils of these urchins, for example, look very much like present day tiny urchins whose spines are giant complexes of microtubules. So the hypothesis is that these were the first conscious entities, that one day there was sufficient quantum coherence in the nervous system of one of these the worms or the spines of an urchin to self collapse and experience happened-some little urchin or worm suddenly had an experience. Having experience and being able to choose non-computably was beneficial for survival and evolution accelerated."


    Fascinating stuff, marine, as always from you. Thanks for sharing.

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Thank You Pandora, i'm glad you enjoyed reading it. I don't know if I agree with everything on that link, but I think there are some excellent ideas.

      1. Obscure Divine profile image53
        Obscure Divineposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        I'm just curious:  Where was all of these people of today, that talk about yesteryear?  ...Just being a cynic of yesterday, while wondering about tomorrow...  hmm

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Friday is the only day that counts. big_smile

 
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