Was the moon once a sun?
Consider the text from the bible.
"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."
A light is a self contained source. The moon in its current state is just a reflection of the Suns light. It is my theory that when the moon went out....the flood happened. Think about it. A pre flood atmosphere contained more suspended water, and at night would need some source of heat to keep it suspended in the air, else it would fall. When the moon went out, the rains did fall. Before the flood everything was watered with mist yes? It states a mist rose from the ground. Ok, the earths core is molten, as you go out from that core the molten becomes rock, granite, and then water and earth and eventually the soil we all walk on. A fluctuation in night and day temps would indeed cause steam/mist to rise from the ground when the air temp cooled. It was a perfect system! So yes, according to the bible, the moon was once a sun, small albeit
I admit. All we have are theories. I submit to the possibility. I believe the universe is boundless in possibilities. What may happen to one star does not necessarily hold true to all stars.
I believe it's possible!The theory of fusion (which has not only NOT been disproven, but has been USED to build bombs, and thus can't be incorrect), states that when 2 chunks of matter have a certain force pushing them towards one another, they will fuse together.
Understood - except in relation to the sun. So, does this mean the sun is actually two chunks of matter?
What I was saying was, we don't really know if the sun has a solid core. We assume it doesn't but we can't possibly know for sure.
~~~~~
okay, I think I'm getting it.
blow up trillions of tons of mass each second - means, not a solid core. (uh, ya! duh!! lol)
So, in other words, the sun could be what is known as a supernova (an exploding star/planet, right?) and as soon as the explosion comes to an end, so does life on earth?
okay, thanks much! I think I felt better believing in creation!! lol
So, if all this is true, what is the purpose of life? It can't be survival - because it sounds like there's no chance of survival.....this is sensible.
Today, all I could think about was infinity. Infinity is incomprehensible to man, but that doesn't mean there isn't a God out there who does comprehend infinity, or who encompasses infinity.
God is all knowing, he knows exactly how earth and the universe was created. Man uses a teeny tiny portion of his brain yet has discovered much about the universe and life around him. I think it's amazing!!
Infinity, I think, must mean being capable of using the entire brain to fully comprehend the existence of life.
This has been very very enjoyable! I have such a different understanding of things (in such a short amount of time - thanks to you guys!!) than I did a few days ago. I hope my brain retains the info, lol, and I hope to put it to use someday. Even if only within a story.
oh, right! I remember hearing about the sun being...nuclear based? like a nuclear power plant, right? I mean, it's the same kind of energy. I honestly don't understand, though, how anyone can claim to know that is absolutely true.
Thanks wilderness, for clearing that up!
I still wonder though....and really wish I'd taken chemistry & physics in high school! Maybe, just maybe I'll take them now....
That's an excellent explanation! Thanks oli.
Now you have me curious about the 'heavier and heavier elements' that would be formed. lol
I asked my son where hydrogen comes from, but he didn't have an answer. I'm wondering how the sun came to have hydrogen if it doesn't have a solid core.
I thought the moon was a big ball of cheese... well, my mother said it was, so it must be true !!
my mother tried that too - until I asked her if the astronauts were bringing back enough for everyone!
thanks camlo -
just a silly question, but, if a Mars-sized body hit the earth as it was forming (or just after it was formed) wouldn't their be residue left on earth to prove such a thing happened? I would think so - has it been found, and determined to be true? or, probably not, since it's a hypothesis....
second piece of silliness - post impact mixing - this sounds deliberate, not the result of a chance occurrence....
Sounds to me like science doesn't really want to disprove the existence of God....
That is very debatable, depending upon where you place the origin of science, most scholars set out to prove the existence of a creator and determine the laws behind the universe.
In my experience, the vast majority of scientists could not give a crap about whether god exists or not - they merely continue with their research and try to find answers. 'Science' isn't a group of people who have exactly the same thoughts, goals, and methods - it is far more complex than thatMaybe that is why there is so much friction between science and religion where there should be none! The Ancient Greeks, Islamic scholars and many of the great minds of the Renaissance saw scientific research as a way to see the mind of god.
For my dissertation, I studied the omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acid ratios in barnacles. I can safely say that theological concerns contributed absolutely nothing to the research process! I am pretty sure that the same applies to the vast majority of modern scientists.
That's an interesting theory, but one I can't put into acceptance. It just doesn't make sense - take a pool table for example. (not exactly accurate for the purpose, but as close as I can get)
Say two pool balls (right next to each other) are struck at the same time - they roll in different directions rather than one circling the other for a time.
Maybe an example with a bullet would be better - if a bullet were to hit a solid object (one that would splinter off after being hit by the bullet) that splintered piece would fly off in a geometrical direction but wouldn't circle its place of origin.
As for the rotation of the moon and earth - I don't believe the rotation would remain the same for a chunk that was blown off. (all I can think of is the pool example again.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The moon origin video was great! But, it doesn't make sense. The lava fields must be what 'evolved' into land mass. Thea died and the earth survived - without leaving a trace of impact on either side? If their were proof of impact, I might be persuaded to believe this theory.This is interesting! I seem to remember hearing of the rope/gravity example before.
Thank you!And there I thought I was being original!
Oh well, what little I have learned in this life is old hat now, I guess - it's all been covered a thousand times before.
- china manposted 13 years ago
0 - Hey, I don't mind discussing theories but I do have a problem with someone trying to convince me that those theories are not only plausible but are factual. Theories are theories, nothing more. Until proven.
lol The Bible is not a theory, it's solid matter.
Don't you understand the Bible also must be proven in order to be accepted as fact? It's not a theory, because really, its recorded history. However, just because its recorded history doesn't prove the existence of God or that God created earth & the universe. I believe in God, therefore, I'd prefer to prove God's existence. However, if it could be proven that God doesn't exist, I'd have to accept it now wouldn't I?
Problem is, I don't believe its been proven, either way.
Nothing wrong with that line of thought, Rafini.
As part of my work, I often use a variation of Carl Sagan's Baloney Detector to test the strength of any research:
http://homepages.wmich.edu/~korista/baloney.html
a theory is a theory until someone proves it WRONG.
You are so right! I don't know why I keep forgetting this. lol It probably has something to do with my wanting to prove things as true. (as in a prosecutor proving the defendant guilty)
lol Probably another reason why I can leave science behind.
This is actually a very good point you bring up with respect to the collision. In space cascading from meteor showers should increase exponentially, therefore increasing the risk of another collision with Earth.
Most scientist (and as stated before even wikipedia
) agree with Alan Boss who wrote an article about the origin of the moon in the Science Mag Issue of January 24 1986 (Vol. 231 no. 4736 pp. 341-345):
"The origin of the moon is considered within the theory of formation of the terrestrial planets by accumulation of planetesimals. The theory predicts the occurrence of giant impacts, suggesting that the moon formed after a roughly Mars-sized body impacted on the protoearth. The impact blasted portions of the protoearth and the impacting body into geocentric orbit, forming a prelunar disk from which the moon later accreted. Although other mechanisms for formation of the moon appear to be dynamically impossible or implausible, fundamental questions must be answered before a giant impact origin can be considered both possible and probable."
But it's also true that 95% of the stars in the universe end up being a white dwarf (and not essentially take the 5% path that leads to a supernova and then to a neutron star or a black hole [in simple terms]), they could theoretically cool down to a black dwarf but the mass of this would exceed the mass of the moon by far AND the Universe is too young that a black dwarf could have formed until now [at least that's what we think] (no one has ever observed black dwarf either and the time it would take for such a hot sun to cool down to a black dwarf is enormously, even in a fairly cold place like the Universe !).Hahaha xD godless theory - good one
But you really wouldn't believe how much I get to hear this everyday by people who actually mean it . But I respect religion, as long as religious people respect science
Until then - the moon might as well be the reason women get their period (no kidding several cultures including the Japanese, Indians and Greeks made the moon responsible for that)
- oh, good! So glad you agree! Creationism isn't a theory, it's a fact!
I think it's safe to understand that those who believe in Creation wish to disprove the big bang theory while those who believe in spontaneous existence wish to disprove any form of a God.
Me? I'd like to say I'd be happy either way just as long as a decision is finally made. But, to be honest, I'd prefer to prove that God does, indeed, exist.
- Aleister888posted 13 years ago0
No, but i do think there is still a lot more we have to discover about the moon...
Very interesting replies everyone, i have enjoyed reading this thread - zampanoposted 13 years ago0
is molten lava not considered organic material? if there'd been a collision, wouldn't there be lava deposits on the moon?
sorry, but you obviously know nothing about me and I don't have the time to explain.
But, my level of knowledge tells me that perhaps my interest in science would be better off served through following the information rather than attempting to immerse myself. Thanks for the blow to the head.Uncle!
gotcha. maybe it was a classmate's theory of everything being alive? lol I can't remember that long ago!! lol But it seems to me the idea came about the same time as we were learning about evolution, and learning about trees needing to breathe (intake carbon dioxide -?- or monoxide -?- and release oxygen) and drink water and so on. The Life of a Rock. Sounds like a geology thing to me.
Who knows?
If it isn't true, I can accept it. I always thought it was strange to think of rocks as being alive. lol
Wow, interesting!! More physics? D@mn!! I gotta get my memory function back so I can take the class!!
um, lol, my foot? not my whole being? that's just a bit too much to digest - I prefer the biological method of childbirth.
E= mc^2 <----- It seems I'd only seen this in conjunction with the words, 'Theory of Relativity', is that what this means, or something else? Energy equals mass (combustion times two?) Is that the theory of relativity? guess I've been misinformed, there. (not enough to confuse my future, but just enough to make me wrong. lol)so, Energy equals mass at the speed of light times two. (oops, actually, it'd be squared, wouldn't it?)
thanks Randy, nobody I've known has ever known what that meant. (never bothered to think to ask a teacher! lol)
seems kind of odd, though, when you consider calories turn to energy inside the human body. (or, whatever they do! lol I just know they're related somehow) Must be a different kind of energy? but, the equation doesn't specify a type of energy.Yes, squared, Rafini. Energy is produced in many ways, including the body burning calories for energy.
- china manposted 13 years ago0
PhD:
Well said.
Are you a Ph.D? If so, in what area of study?
There is only one comment you made that I disagree with:
"... religion has to take a step back and invents new counter-theories proving science to be wrong after all."
I cannot recall any instance where religion has "proved" science to be wrong.?
In fact, I cannot recall a time when religion could
prove" anything!
Qwark:Hey qwark,
Thanks for your comment
Yeah in Physics and Chemistry Although I'm working at an European University, that's why my English's not flawless and that's why I wasn't clear in my post here:
"... religion has to take a step back and invents new counter-theories proving science to be wrong after all."
What I meant is that religious institutions often don't admit scientific discoveries e.g. it took really long until the vatican approved that the earth isn't flat or that our solar system is heliocentric...
hope I made that clear
greetings RDSPhDYep ya did!
I envy your gift for math, physics and science in general!
I have my "talents" but was invisible when the brains for math and science were passed out...lol
When folks like you sit me down and explain in "laymans" language the results of math and physics research, I can understand it.
I love everything Hawking has offered. His thoughts are presented at the "grade school": level which for me to understand is necessary.
Thanks for responding.
You are using English very well!
QwarkHaha guys this thread is on FIRE
Thanks qwark! Oh and it's never too late to learn anything - and Hawking is just amazing, when I was young I always read all his work and listened to recordings of his lectures (that was before he had that terrible accident at the CERN) and even know every book he publishes and every documentary he makes is an absolute must. And it's also cool if different people have different talents. Imagine earth to be full of people with only one talent - that would suck .
As a "scientist" myself I have to say that science, knowledge and intelligence are three separate things and everybody has to do the things he likes and not force his interest in a field where you get money, or prestige or please your parents (that's why so many students study law or economics and end up not being happy...).
The most important part about life is being happy, that's what keeps you going to work everyday and living your life.
To get back to Hawking, he's such a great person because he doesn't treat science as if it is a privilege, and that's why he can explain scientific phenomena/topics to EVERYBODY. Take certain Doctors as another example, it's the typical cliché that they talk in their own academic language to sound intelligent and to be admired (that's still why many kids today want to be a doctor when they grow up). But basically they could simply explain everything without those academic terms.
I know a lot of this "doctor-stereotype" has (fortunately) changed but I wanted to tell that knowledge alone does not equal power. It's the way you share it with other people what makes you stand out. And that's why people admire Albert Einstein, Steven Hawking or Michael Faraday (just to name a few), because they don't keep their knowledge but share it with the world!
Ok I admit, I got a bit off-topicRDS:
Yes, esoterica can be a turnoff!
Thank goodness for you and the likes of "specialists" who care to share!
Ya'll make life much more interesting for me..:
QwarkThanks again for the compliments qwark
Well I love anything related to Esotericism, and so do most of my colleagues. In a way science and esotericism are closer related to each other than anyone would think. So I'm definitely glad that there are esoteric specialists out there sharing those wisdoms with us!!
greetings RDS
Raf:
You are questioning! That is a characteristic of "intelligence!"
You keep right on questioning and don't let what anyone says disturb your quest for learning!
If you were a "closed" mind, you would have backed off long ago after getting so many, of what I think of as being "demeaning" responses."
Question away woman!
I respect that extremely important aspect of human character.
But!...learn to seperate the "wheat-from-the-chaff!"
Good luck with your studies!:
Qwark:
this is interesting - thank you shadesbreath.
many of the questions I've asked here are questions I've had since childhood - I honestly had no idea there were answers already (for some of them). It's good to know.
I watch the programs whenever I can, (which isn't very often b/c I rarely have cable tv) because the subject fascinates me. But, after this experience, I have to wonder why. What is it I really want to know? I also have to wonder - do I really care about the origins of mankind, earth, or the universe?
Maybe just living is enough for me.Raf:
"Should I devote my educational life to understanding the universe, or continue with the humanities that make more sense to me?"
You can do all of the above!
There are limitations to everyones aptitudes.
My aptitude for math (quantitative)is nil, but...for the "qualitative" i.e. communication, humanities, art etc., I have excelled!
Find your "niche" and excel!
That doesn't mean that the results of science and math can't be understood by me. They certainly can if "couched" in laymans terminology.
I study everything!
Be a "multitasker" in ref to learning, but for goodness sakes, make "logic and reason" the foundation of your eventual beliefs!
Go for it!:
QwarkI think that's what I was trying to say.
I'll learn from others in regard to the scientific aspects of the universe, although I can still question what's out there, and push myself to the limit in the area of the arts.
Hi surf:
Existence of what? God?
Why would anyone try to "disprove" nothing? It would be "an exercise in futility."
This god thing only exists in opinion and opinions are worth less than a dime a dozen in todays economy...
Qwark:Hi Qwark
Unfortunately, that sums up my opinion of the entire evolutionist/creationist debate - it is a lot of noise about nothing in particular.
Sadly, it has entered the realm of politics and I suspect that we share a similar view about politicians.
With you on the opinions thing - I long ago accepted that my opinion is of less importance than what color dress Lady Gaga wore yesterday
Even I think gods are possible - as far as I am concerned, there are an infinite number of possible gods - which just makes one infinitely improbable.
I don't believe there is one - as it makes no sense, but - possible - sure. You define it - I will disprove it.
- china manposted 13 years ago0
- yeah but that way atleast we get them out of religious delusion.
Christianity is keeping people inside box of beliefs where they've imagination limit like - life exists on earth only, milky way as only galaxy (don't be surprised if they fail to differentiate between galaxy and universe) and so on. If we take omniscience characteristic of their god out then they'll revert back to their belief because people prefer fantasy and moral support over facts.
Rafini, do you understand what causes winter and summer on our planet?
He thinks it's god
I cannot believe that the idea of creationism is still that prevalent among todays society! (unfortunately mostly in the United States, a progressive country...). I don't want to ban the idea of creationism, everybody's (or should be) free to believe whatever he wants (at least in his own mind). But somehow sooner or later one has to ask questions and scrutinize the creationism theory??The Creation posters are so confused about science such as "organic material" being part of everything in the universe. If a creationists doesn't know organic material comes from material which once was alive, then educating them as to the workings of the universe is an uphill battle.
Of course, anyone with a basic science background has no problem understanding the possibility or probability of how things came to be as they are. Unfortunately, it is much easier to merely accept what uneducated religious spokesmen tell them. I suppose spreading ignorance is not considered a sin by Christians.To be fair, some of the confusion stems from the different interpretations and language usage between scientific disciplines. For example, many biologists would use your definition of organic matter, myself included.
To a biochemist or astrobiologist, organic matter could mean any hydrocarbon compound - it doesn't necessarily mean that it was created by life.
Gets a little confusing!It can get a little confusing, certainly in terms of astrophysics/astrobiology/geology.
For example, scientists often talk about 'organic compounds' being present in comets. The way that some of the various documentaries portray this, it is easy to understand why some equate this with 'life.'
Sometimes, scientists do not always do a good job of explaining what they mean - on this, I agree with RDSPhD
EDIT: Rafini - Lava was not necessarily life. Many sedimentary rocks at the surface were once composed of living things - limestone is a good example - and sometimes heat and pressure from the earth's interior deforms these into metamorphic rocks, such as marble. So, my house is built upon rocks that were once living creatures!
When you get to the core of the earth, most of that existed long before life appearedEven Carl Sagan, one of the greatest astrobiologists of all, makes little distinction between the two:
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1984satn.book..788S
This article also refers to organic compounds as organic matter:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 … 04349.html
There are many more examples.
I stand by my earlier point - with these terms used interchangeably, it is little wonder that people can confuse the two
EDIT: D'oh! Just noticed that you said material, not matter. It has been a long day! Still, organic material is a term also used for compounds, even by NASA.
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassi … 42505.html
I do agree, Sufi! I assumed Rafini was referring to "organic material in the biological sense. My mistake if she was not doing so. Thanks for explaining the difference in the proper manner.
Science doesn't make sense to you because you're not taking effort to understand it. It's hard to solve triple integration math problems because it doesn't make sense in solving insomnia problems eh ?Just for the sake of argument consider god with size and intellect equal to gallactus (refer to marvel comics for more info), do you think he'll send weak sparrow like yeshua to dominate (err guide) human beings ?
"Scientific mumbo jumbo"? No one you have ever heard of? Does this mean you are familiar with Stellar theory and don't recognize the names of any of the theorists?
Or, because you aren't familiar with the theories, and because you don't recognize anyone who has "ventured to guess" what is at the center of the sun, it is "mumbo jumbo"?this means only that I am barging into a thread where pseudo-scientists parade as if they know things no one else could figure out and since I am always in AWe, totally in AWE of pseudo science, I thought I'd just contribute a wee smile.
:
go on - talk amongst yourselves, while I go get some sunshine!No problem, Mega.
Thanks for your pseudo-helpful input. Don't get pseudo-sunburn!
Raf:
When you "pass away," you will die still waiting for the "proof."
Get on with your life knowing this.
Life is a "one way trip." Make the most of it!
Eternity is a very long, long,long,long, long etc., ad infinitum time!:
QwarkRafini has also managed to start a thread that has run to over 10 pages, without descending into all out flame war.
That is something else to be proud of!
-
There is an amazing amount of knowledge in this thread - Thank you to everyone for contributing! I appreciate it.
Hahaha that's the reason why Hawking describes us humans as: bordeaux drinking star debris
If you're really interested in the story of us humans since the big bang check out "The Grand Design" here http://amzn.to/gUlVb3 ore the Universe documentaries Hawking has made. He really tries to explain the phenomena of religion in the context of science and also talks about the battle between creationism and evolutionism. He doesn't want to give one final answer about this matter but he surely is very convincing and uses the newest scientific discoveries to make his point.
I was very amazed when I read this book and think that it's his best one until now! (The others were a bit more complicated but this time he has taken a great effort to explain things as simple as possible).
So this really is something for you to read, Rafini!
Just go to your local book store and order a copy, you and your son can then read it and you have nothing to loose because it's really not written in a manner that would try to brainwash you it's more written in a astonishing and explaining way!
greetings
RDSPhDHaha that's your problem then
All I can do is recommend you a good book - I can't force you to read it though Really? A brain cell - Cool!! I stopped and got the book when I picked my son up from school - he seemed interested in reading it himself, when I finish.
I liked the other book covers too, they captured my attention better than what you'd normally find on a book cover.
~~~~~
most sarcasm makes no sense to me either, not at all, and the kind I can recognize most is from my sister cuz it comes out dripping with anger and hatred.
I can recognize other kinds sometimes, after I get to know a person quite well, but then if I don't see them for awhile...I forget! Except my mother-in-law...I could never tell if she was serious, joking, sarcastic, angry, or sad.
Thank you - I just heard this in my Anthropology class today: The Theory of Evolution, while having an overwhelming amount of supporting evidence, does not disprove the existence of (any) God(s). So, I'm guessing I can continue to look at it as I always have - that Chemistry & Evolution exist to explain the process God took in creating the Universe.
(btw - I didn't take chemistry either. It became a requirement after I graduated. )
Whoops - my post wasn't very clear. What I meant that I don't agree with is that modern humans and modern chimpanzees descended from a common ancestor. The rest of it makes sense.
Has internal organ use changed since 1660? I haven't heard this before. As for the appendix, we discussed that (briefly!!) in Anthropology today. I wonder, why didn't the appendix adapt rather than stop being of use? (that would have been an excellent question to ask in class! but the instructor made it clear this is her first year teaching and her specialty is cultural anthropology. )
I understand environmental changes/adaptations/evolutions. Not too many of them are difficult to understand - it's some of the physical/biological that don't make sense.
Creation vs Spontaneous Existence - I believe each step towards proving the big bang theory is another step toward our understanding of how God created universal life. (wishful thinking? perhaps. but it's my wish) 7 days? 6000 years ago? Unimportant to me.
DNA? I've heard humans and chimpanzees share somewhere around 96-98% DNA along with every other thing on this earth. Not much in the way of evidence, if you ask me.
- ralwusposted 13 years ago0
I'm sorry, but this is just all too silly.
God isn't a man, he's God. lol 
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