Should Elsa (from Disney's Frozen) be turned into a lesbian?

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   Stevennix2001posted 8 years ago

   If you haven't heard by now, a lot of liberals and members within the lbgt community have been petitioning online for Disney to make Elsa officially gay in the next "Frozen" sequel because they feel it would be liberating to finally see an openly gay character on the big screen in a kids' film.   While I don't  see a problem with that per say, I do have a serious issue with it because it would reinforce the stereotype that if you're a strong independent woman in a position of power, yet you're single by choice, then you're automatically gay.   It's the same reason why I get so f**king annoyed when people accuse both Frodo and Sam Wise, from lord of the rings", being gay lovers just because they hugged each other while crying.  I'm sorry, but did you not pay attention in "Return of the King", when Sam Wise explicitly states that he had a girl hobbit that he had his eyes on?  Are we just ignoring that?  Granted, you can say Frodo is gay because his sexuality was never confirmed or denied, so i"ll give you guys that one, but anyone who says Sam was gay clearly didn't pay attention to the last movie.  Just saying. 
   
   Seriously, why is it that any time a man shows even the slightest hint of a feminine side, while being single by choice, he's automatically gay?  Or if a woman that's strong minded and independent, who happens to be single by choice, is also considered a  lesbian?  Again, I just don't like the idea because it would seem like Disney would be reinforcing that stereotype.  Don't get me wrong, I would have ZERO issues with Disney if they did make Elsa gay, as I do agree with liberals and lbgt members that there should be more representation of the gay community in various media.  I have no issue with that, and i apologize to everyone here if my post sounds sexist and/or homophobic in anyway, as I can assure you that was not my intention. 
   
   However, I just don't want Elsa to be gay because I feel like it would be sending a message to little girls that you can't be strong minded, or independent, or in a position of power, while being single because that must mean you're gay.  I mean part of the reason why I loved Elsa as a character is because she showed little girls that you can be in a position of authority, while still being very beautiful, kind, sweet and intelligent.  She wasn't a stereotype.  If anything, she defied stereotypes because if you honestly look at most media, they often portray queens as being vain, ugly, narcissistic, evil and petty.  Elsa was none of those things; hence showing little girls that you can still be as sweet and lovely as a princess, while still being in a position of power.  I just feel like making her gay would be sending the wrong message to little girls that you can't be in a position of authority while being single because it'll mean you're gay.  I don't know.  maybe i'm  overreacting here.  What do you guys think?  Do you think I'm right in my line of thinking?  Or do you think I'm being incredibly obtuse?

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   Oztinatoposted 8 years ago

   It does seem like a certain clique wants kids to be turned into gays. Sexual themes belong in adult movies. How would a Disney kids film show kids there are lesbian themes? Love scenes? I think there's a noisy clique of folks who are getting carried away with a power hit.
   How about being vocal for native American rights for example. Isn't that a much more worthy cause than current high octane debates about using the toilet or turning kids cartoons into gay themes. Indigenous suicude rates are horrific but I don't see anyone too fussed about it.

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      lobobrandonposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Well Disney is not focused solely on the American Audience, so native American rights may not be in their best interest. They are a business organisation after all.

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         Oztinatoposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         Please don't use muddled misdirection.
         I was clearly talking generally about the relativity of the importance of themes in modern life and how cliques focus on comparatively irrelevant social topics.

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      Stevennix2001posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      While you do make a lot of valid points, I would like to address some of your concerns if I may.  You asked how they can introduce lesbianism into a kids' film, and then implied that the only way you could see it happening would be to show them doing love scenes in order to emphasize they're lesbians?  I don't think it would really require that much to introduce gay couples into kids' films. 
      
      I mean when Beauty and the beast came out, did you need to see Belle and Beast have sex in order for you to know they might have had romantic feelings for each other?   Did Ariel need to have sex with her prince charming for you to figure out that she loved him?  The quick answer to all of this is no.  In the Nickelodeon series, Legend of Korra, the main character was a lesbian, yet they never showed her having sex with her female crush, yet they still gave you enough implications that they were gay for each other. 
      
      Trust me, there are ways to introduce a gay couple into a movie without showing them having sex, in order for you to figure out they're gay.  However, I can see where you're coming from about everything else you just said.  Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing more openly gay characters in various media (even in things for kids), as it's natural to want to see characters that aren't all that dissimilar from yourself, so you can relate to them better. 
      
      It's the same reason why teens love seeing those young adult films because teens can relate more to characters that aren't much older than themselves.  therefore, I can understand where some liberals and gay people are coming from on this issue.
      
      I just don't like the idea for all the reasons I already stated in my original post.  I mean part of the charm about Elsa's character is that she defied stereotypes, yet to put her down as a lesbian because it's trending online seems like they'd be reinforcing her as a stereotype if anything, which completely undermines one of the many charms about her character.  At least, that's my opinion

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         Oztinatoposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         There seems to be a poverty of statistics on numbers of gays etc. It seems to be a very small percentage. Therefore we should ask ourselves if the requirement for such inclusion in widespread media should go to the most vocal clique or not. What about people with Tourettes or disabled people or schizophrenic people etc. What are the statistics? Why are people more conerned about who can go to the toilet where/when or who's having sex with who for example, over hideous suicide rates of indigenous people? Is it because it's more fashionable or important?
         It feels like a certain clique is very vocal and supported by the entertainment media because there is perhaps a higher percentage of gays in those areas. Without statistics it's hard to justify such wholesale cultural changes.
         To me ethically it would seem environmental and indigenous tragedies rank far higher in importance and who has sex with who seems self indulgent and trivial.

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            Stevennix2001posted 8 years agoin reply to this

            I don't think anyone is saying those other issues you brought up aren't important, nor do I think the people advocating for a gay Elsa are saying that either.  I just think it comes down to representation through media.  All social groups want to see characters on the big screen that aren't that dissimilar to themselves.  It's one of the main reasons why  there's so much white washing in movies these days because statistics show that white people tend to relate to white characters more so than they do a black guy or a Spanish guy or whatever. 
            
            Don't ask me why that is, but that's what statistics show, so most Hollywood casting directors go by that.  Personally, I don't see why that's the issue because I'm probably the most heterosexual man in this thread (no offense to anyone else here), but I had ZERO problem being able to relate to the love story in "Brokeback Mountain", as I thought it was one of the best love stories of all time. 
            
            Hell, I watch a lot of chick flicks too, but never found any problems relating to the main character because she's a woman, so i don't really know where they get this statistic from to be honest. 
            
            I think gay people just want to see a character like Elsa be turned gay because it'll finally give them a fictional character they can relate to, and idolize; similar to how minorities can relate to x-men because they deal with prejudices from ignorant bigots like they do, or how black kids want to idolize someone like black panther.
            
            Personally, I can see where they're coming from, but like I said, women have a hard enough time being taken seriously these days.  As much as I hate Hilary Clinton, I will defend her when people question her sexuality.  Whenever she acts tough, I always hear people call her out as a lesbian, yet when she's too soft, people say, "Oh she's too soft because she's a woman."  Elsa is the first iconic Disney queen that wasn't ugly, vain or petty about anything.  She was still as sweet and lovely as a princess, yet she was in a position of power.  By making her gay, it just feels like you're reinforcing the stereotype that anytime a woman even shows the slightest hint of being stronger than a man in some way, then it automatically means she's not as feminine or that she's gay.  that's the only issue that I have with it.

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   LuisEGonzalezposted 8 years ago

   I think people should just leave Disney to produce their movies without telling them who to make into what. They are kids movies so just let the kids enjoy them without all this "advocating" by adults for one way or the other.

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      Kiss andTalesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I agree intertaiment should not force the issues of choice on sexual content .I believe that thats up to the parents rearing their own child and deciding what is appropriate according to their own beliefs and training.
      The enterainment world has done this anyway taking subjects and leaving messages that teach against ones own views on morals. I believe its  parents duty to continue to filter and decide what is good an wholesome for their children.
      When they are grown they can make their own decisions.but for now we control the movies and tv, and songs games.there is more to life then others dictating through media battles of sex. Let the children keep their innocence .It is a beautiful thing.

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         Kiss andTalesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         Really have society in the world already have made dicisions and laws concerning Gay rights . As adults you live what you believe in .but so do others .why drag incconcent little minds into war of the sexes. I think it is very selfish to rob children of their childhood by establishing the Adult feelings and experiences of sex.
         Their little minds are not old enough to grasp all the issues with this subject.
         No leave the little ones alone. Let them play and enjoy a life free from sexual messages.
         There is nothing I see good about it.

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            Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            It's no more a sexual message than a relationship between a heterosexual couple in a Disney movie.
            
            And innocent little minds can be attracted to the same sex, if anything it would send the message that it's okay for them to feel that way and encourage them that they don't have to feel ashamed or abnormal. 
            
            Personally I would love for those innocent little minds to not be raised to view homosexuality as something that should be hidden away.  I think teaching them who they are/aren't allowed to love is more damaging to their spirit.
            
            I have a 4-year-old, I would have no problem with her watching a show or movie where a child had two moms or dads, or the main character had a girlfriend instead of a boyfriend.  She doesn't care.  There's nothing to grasp, really.  I'd be willing to bet she'd say "aww, they love each other, that's so sweet!" just the same as if she saw a romantic scene between a man and a woman.  Adults are the ones who make this stuff complicated.

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               Kiss andTalesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

               Well you have that choice .but others want to raise there children different.
               Sex should not be forced on the mind of kids because it on the mind of the Adult.
               Allow kids to make their own adult decision. No different then being forced to have sex is a crime .now people are doing it mentally programming children at a young age. No this is not right.

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                  AshtonFireflyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  If this is the case, should we not also eliminate heterosexual themes in  children's movies? Like where a princess falls in love with the prince? That's just as "sexual." Making the characters gay doesn't make the movie about sex any more than making the  characters straight makes the movie about sex.
                  What makes the  movie about  sex is sexual content. If a princess and a prince kiss, it's the same if a princess and a princess kiss.

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                     Kiss andTalesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                     Anything that play roles to introduce sex to young minds is violating. How would you feel if a teacher gives your child pornography?
                     Just because it on a big screen in a movie theater using cartoons is still passing a message on about sex. No matter the gender.
                     Lets be real here. Just because you make it look innocent it still is violaing the mind
                     and a child at that  I totally disagree with
                     Let children be children leave sex out of it.

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                        AshtonFireflyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                        My question was more specifically about what you define to be sexual. What exactly would you define as sexual in a movie? Kissing? Two characters being in love? People getting married?
                        
                        What are the parameters of a movie being "sexual?" Could you give some examples, and possibly some examples of children's movies that you consider sexual, and why?

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                     Kiss andTalesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                     You are correct . it is still introducing the subject. But that does not make it right.
                     Neither is it  right to me.
                     Children minds should stay on children things .these issues are dealing with adult experiences , Adult feelings, The Adult body.
                     Children should enjoy an innocent child hood .

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                        AshtonFireflyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                        Ah I see.
                        
                        These ideas are probably considered extreme, by most (i.e. that kissing is sexual and inappropriate in children's movies, or that two characters falling in love is sexual and inappropriate.) And it seems a bit extreme to equate these things to pornography.  No genitalia are exposed and sex is not being presented. So where do we draw the line? What is truly sexual and what isn't? And at what point do we allow it? When they turn 18? Once they hit puberty? Once they become curious? When does two people kissing on the t.v. become not harmful or violating? 
                        Either way, the film industry isn't responsible for our children's minds. We are. Film industries can make whatever movies they like; it's their right. And let's remember that some "children's" movies are catering to not just young children, but also teens or even adults. As parents we should be screening what we feel is appropriate for our children.
                        I think there should certainly be limits to what I allow my child to see, but neither do I think it's healthy to shield them entirely from the concept. Children will learn about sex once they become curious, and once that happens, we discuss it with them in a positive, educational way. The second a child walks outside, they're see something sexual. A mom and dad kissing, two people holding hands, etc. To shield a child from this, you'd have to lock them in a house until adulthood with no access to the outside. At all.

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               AshtonFireflyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

               This right here.

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   FatFreddysCatposted 8 years ago

   Disney will surely ignore these "petitions" from a small minority anyway, so it's pretty much a non-issue.

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   Chriswillman90posted 8 years ago

   I have a feeling Disney will eventually introduce a gay couple but they'll be very coy about it. Truth be told for many kids today the tolerance will continue to build towards same sex relationships until eventually it'll be a non-issue.

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      Castlepalomaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      They can get married and live happily ever after, if it helps their ratings.

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   Aime Fposted 8 years ago

   I don't have an issue with it in theory and I think it could be done subtly enough that it wouldn't cause too much outrage.  I mean, as it's been pointed out, the romantic scenes in Disney films are never very explicit, I think they could even do it in a way that could be inferred but not directly stated. 
   
   However, I kind of like that Elsa is not preoccupied by any love interests.  I don't think she needs any.  What makes Frozen great is the focus on the relationship between sisters/family as well as embracing who you are, I think adding in a romantic relationship for Elsa (male or female) might take away from the entire premise.
   
   I actually really love what Once Upon A Time did with taking the Frozen storyline forward.  I'd really like to see something similar from Disney.

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      Castlepalomaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I don't mind two women in love. With two guys in romanticaly in love might take more time to stomach.

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   AshtonFireflyposted 8 years ago

   It's weird when people suggest that Elsa represented a strong, independent woman in a position of power without a man. She literally hid from everything, went into extreme panics and destroyed things because she was scared, abandoned her family in fear and went from sweet to psychotic in two seconds and created a snowmonster capable of harming her family. She abandoned her country without really having a plan and just isolated herself from society. She didn't even try to help once she realized she'd turned the whole kingdom of ice. I could go on and on.
   
   If anything, making Elsa gay would insinuate that gay people are bipolar, fearful, irresponsible, and crappy family members irreparably damaged by poor parenting.
   
   I'm not sure kids would even make those connections. They'd probably be just like "oh elsa loves a girl" and not make the other psychological connections we as adults make (her being independent, etc.)
   
   I don't care either way. We already have "love" scenes in Disney films. I mean they kiss and get married and fall in love.  The whole point is to give gays equal representation.Gay love scenes wouldn't be any more sexual than straight love scenes.
   
   Film makers aren't obligated to do anything. Film making is creative art and expression. Make any story you want with whatever premise you want with whatever characters you want. Disney isn't in charge of our children's life choices so why should we care what films they make? If you don't want your kid to see it or if you disagree with it, then don't let them watch it. If you want Disney to make a film that reflects a certain view, ask them to. Disney isn't the only source of information about the world for our kids.

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      Castlepalomaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, there is always the on and off button.

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   Kiss andTalesposted 8 years ago

   Well values are not all the same. There are people who relate kissing as part of a sexual encounter. Maybe some do not but all experiences are not alike. Example Is kissing ok when it is a stranger involves your child. The media can be the stranger as well . Allowing messages of sexaual choices in to innocent children is wrong not right.

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   Aime Fposted 8 years ago

   Should parents not kiss in front of their children?  Should children be shielded from people in public who give each other a kiss?  Seems rather extreme and I think appropriate affection is the last thing kids should be shielded from.

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      Castlepalomaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Most know sex with children is wrong anywhere.
      Light kiss or kiss on the cheek is OK.
      Deep French kiss, get a room.

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