A question about morals and ethics

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   sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

   Let me hear both sides. 
   
   The scenario:
   
   A family member runs into some trouble because he got laid off from work.  His brother offers him a job with his company paying good money but the only thing is, is that he needs to relocate.
   
   He takes the offer and relocates for the job.  With no money and no where to go, his brother also offers him a place to stay and he takes the offer.
   
   After he arrives, his brother then tells him that he needs to pay 800.00 for rent to stay in his home.  He obliges because he feels somewhat in debt and shows his gratitude for helping him out in a rough situation.
   
   Now, without much notice, he has two rents to pay is trying to relocate his family and save his money so that they can get their own place.  Knowing that he doesn't have any money to begin with, he gives over his first pay check to his brother for rent.  His second pay check goes to his rent back at home and his third pay check goes to his bill and his forth pay check goes towards food because part of the money for rent was supposed to go towards food but they never bothered to get him anything to eat.
   
   So he says nothing, still feeling like he owes his brother gratitude for getting him a job and allowing him a place to stay.  Soon a couple months pass and he still is not able to save any money. 
   
   Later he finds out that his brother doesn't pay rent, his company pays his rent and utilities and gas. There rent was 1900.00 and he was making his brother pay half the rent for a small room in the home.  Essentially profiting off his brother.
   
   Now the two brother went in on a business deal putting up dry wall in a co-workers home in exchange for a boat.  A project that the brothers planned on doing together and sharing equally. 
   
   For the fist couple of weeks, they go together but his brother leaves early and the other brother stays behind to do more work.  After that, the one brother who is already profiting off his brother doesn't go anymore and the other brother is left to fulfill their agreement. 
   
   Eventually, the three get together, the two brothers and the guy whose home they were working on.  They agree between them that they would split the cost of paying someone to finish part of the home because the one brother no longer has time to go, the other brother cannot do it on his own and the man who owns the house cannot afford to pay someone for the job.
   
   They agree to split it three ways.  Later, the one brother's wife decides that she will not allow her husband to pay anything into the project to fulfill their agreement and the other brother gets stuck paying for it because he knows that it is right to honor the agreement.
   
   Later the mans wife says that she is the owner of the boat, his brother feels that he owns half the boat per agreement and the other brother is left with no money, no boat and no home.
   
   ...
   
   Let me hear both sides.  Go.

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      Cranooposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      This is pure usury and you shouldn't treat your worst enemy like this let alone your brother.
      
      If someone is treating you like this when you get on your own too feet never speak to them again!

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   2. 57

      C.J. Wrightposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I find the scenario a bit confusing, but here it goes.
      1. Brother 1 is out of a job. Brother 2 offers a job that requires relocation. In this case Brother 2 is in fact being gracious at least on the surface. What we don't know is this:
      How many times has brother 1 came to brother 2 with hat in hand? Maybe brother 1 makes a habit of being needy, in which case brother 2 needs to offer some "tough love". On the flip side maybe brother 2 has been opportunistic with brother 1. In which case brother 1 is getting what he tolerates.
      
      2. Brother 1 may have gotten himself into a jam by not offering to pay something towards the household expenses of brother 2.  Had he let him know up front how much he could afford, brother 2 may not have tendered an amount so high..maybe. If the brother still insist on 800.00, brother 1 should stay at the local homeless shelter ,low rent motel ,shop around for a roommate or return home and take as many low paying jobs he can find to make ends meet. Its sounds horrible, but brother 1 is an adult and has responsibilities. He has taken the right steps to fulfill them, but if things weren't well thought out. Or if upon arriving at brother 2's home, things aren't as they should be, tough choices are in order. Brother 1 may have the moral and ethical high ground, but that won’t pay the bills.
      3. The issue of brother 2 not paying rent does not necessarily indicate that he is profiting off of his brother.  Technically the rent is being paid in lieu of monetary payments by his employer. It's actually reducing brother 2's tax liability. Maybe it’s per diem, again not taxable. In either case the idea that brother 2 is not paying rent may gives us clues as to brother 1's line of thinking. There is no such thing as a free lunch comes to mind here. Is brother 1 looking for a hand out or a hand up?
      4. When the boat comes into play we find out that neither brother has a good track record of thinking things through. The idea that the two brothers and the home owner should hire out the remainder of work and split the cost is ridiculous. The obvious answer his is this; the two brothers should be paid for the work they have completed. Agreeing to pay for something that you don't own and can't profit from shouldn't even be considered. As far as the homeowners wife claiming she owns the boat. It’s just another indication of bad judgment on the part of the two brothers. The title/registration of the boat should have been checked. Anytime someone is attempting to pay with property you have to be careful. They weren't careful, so both brothers’ loose on this deal.
      
      Family will put the screws to you quicker than anyone, normally because of the lack of communication.  Business' can be successful when run by Families but only when run like a business. All too often Family is only important when you’re down on your luck and have no where else to turn.

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      1. 0

         sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         That was very insightful worth more than one thought.

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         1. 57

            C.J. Wrightposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks, it was a strange question. Is it more than hypothetical? Is it a part of a sociology/phsycology class?  Just curious.

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               sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               It is more then hypothetical but in order for me to really understand what is really going on I feel like I need to see things from another perspective. 
               
               To me, it is a bizarre situation and life has already taught me that there is always more than one side to every situation.  So where I lack prospectively might ultimately help bring this situation under control.
               
               Thanks for you input. Obviously there is much more to the situation but I think it is best for me to start from the beginning, cover as many angles as I can before I address the other things that have come up.

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   3. 60

      dutchman1951posted 15 years agoin reply to this

      If he got screwed by his brother on the rent?, Why partner on a Boat?
      
      Once is Ignorance he walked into it unkown. Twice is Bliss.!
      
      Move to an efficency, thank his brother for all he's done to date.
      
      Negotiaate with whom ever is the Boss for moving expenses to help. Pay his cheep efficency until he can get his family moved, And Forget the Boat. Its a Loss, stop the money drain!
      
      "Common sense" says Job first, then House, then kids back to school and wife settled...then get the toys. At least for most gown-ups it is, Brother be damed. Get your life settled and working smoothly first.

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2. 64

   Lisa HWposted 15 years ago

   Somehow I'm guessing this is not a hypothetical scenario.   
   
   With only the information provided, I think it's hard to comment on morals and ethics (at least with the stuff at the latter half of the story).  My immediate response to the first part was that it was kind of crummy for the guy not to give his brother a little time of not paying anything, in order to allow him to do what he had to get his own place.  In fairness to the brother with the home, though, maybe it was a lack of effective communication.  He could have been thinking he'd turn the situation in a "win/win" situation; and he may have thought just offering a quick place to stay was enough (and even assumed the brother knew there would be rent).
   
   With the rest of the mess, though, I'm guessing it was a combination of lack of good communication of the individuals' aims and plans and, maybe, life coming in and complicating things (whether that was "life" in terms of circumstances or in terms of what happens to people internally once they're in a complicated situation).  A lot of plans sound like good ideas "on paper", but once people actually are "living them" complications just arise.  Then, too, people often make what they believe are the best choices/decisions, based on the information they have at the time; but then "the information" (circumstances) either changes or turns out to be revealed as having been incomplete (sometimes only because time changes what that original, incomplete, information meant).  (Of course, there are times in life when one person is just a jerk - and I'm not ruling that out either.) 
   
   As an objective "guesser", I'd hope the brothers would un-entwine their personal business, but be open to the idea that things happened in a way that nobody really intended them to unfold.  One or both may feel "victimized", but one or both may also (even if he can't say it) feel awful about failing his brother.  Even if the one brother was just a jerk, sometimes people are "jerks" because they're either unthinking, stupid, or just or a completely different wavelength.  I'd think figuring out a way to un-entwine the personal business, and having a little time to put the whole mess in the past, may be a good aim.

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3. 60

   ediggityposted 15 years ago

   Simple.  Grow a sack and man up!

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4. 0

   Poppa Bluesposted 15 years ago

   Never do business with friends or family! Really it sounds like agreements and understandings were all made on the go and with nothing in writing. In business, No matter who you're dealing with, you must have a contract that is legal and binding. There must be a begin and end date with everything spelled out on all sides.

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5. 0

   sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

   So essentially, you guys are saying.  It is a pretty crappy thing to do to a family member but at the same time, business is business and the lesson learned is "never do business with family" and "get it in writing" and "never make a deal without being clear on communication."
   
   Lisa, what do you mean by un-entwine?  I suppose I sorta get it but what would that entail?

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      Poppa Bluesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Yup. With family and friends you almost need things in writing more just to protect each other from hurt feelings that can result from miscommunication and misunderstandings. Not that it isn't a crappy thing to do, to profit off your family. That's pretty cold, I couldn't do it but everybody is different.

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6. 61

   archdawposted 15 years ago

   I personally would beat the SHIT out of the brother!

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