Patriotism or Nationalism?

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   Justsilvieposted 12 years ago

   
   Reading a number of Hubs on politics here the word Patriotism is used heavily and this brings up the old question is it Patriotism or Nationalism? And Nationalism as defined by George Orwell?
   
   From Orwell's Notes on Nationalism
   
   By "nationalism" I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labeled "good" or "bad." But secondly -- and this is much more important -- I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognizing no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By "patriotism" I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.
   
   
   Worth reading in its entirety:  http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/nationalism.html
   
   Can we please keep the dialogue respectful! Beating each other over the head just gives us both a headache.

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2. 74

   ThoughtSandwichesposted 12 years ago

   Hi Silvie...Excellent distinction between two, generally, "gauzy" type terms.  You are correct in accessing the dialogue as fairly vitriolic in the political science halls of Hubsville.
   
   Typically, by the time I have reviewed "Posting 93" (or whatever) I feel somewhat battered.  It's sad and I wonder if I am getting a Déjà vue thing from 1859...I hope not.
   
   I have this hearing issue...actually...I think everyone else as a speaking issue...but I will bow to the doc's news...its me...i digress...the condition makes it hard to differentiate individual threads against a loud background??  (yeah...best way to describe it) ...anyway...the political forums...that's much the same effect.
   
   I primarily decided to post this ThoughtSandwich because I'm curious to find out how many folks will be against "respectable dialogue".  OK...nice meeting you, good thoughts, good presentation.  I will now sit in the back with my notebook and watch how it goes.
   
   PS...the link appears broken.

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3. 58

   mortimerjacksonposted 12 years ago

   Patriotism and nationalism are of identical sentiments. Nationalism is just a more extreme classification of patriotism.
   
   Consider that patriotism is defined as "love for your country." Love for your country comparative to what? Love already implies a sense of preferential treatment of a certain nation over others. It's simply a matter of extent.
   
   Also, in this manner, "country" is an abstract idea. People associate different places and different ideas when espousing to their "country." Everyone has their own views of what makes their "country" great. As such, it is something of a Rorschach test akin to religion.
   
   In my eyes, patriotism and nationalism are both divisive ideas that people of the world simply should not have. Nationalistically speaking, why should one think better of their own country than they do about, say Canada? We are all citizens of humanity. Nations should not stand in the way of our respect towards one another.

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4. 59

   gustaw1981posted 12 years ago

   You are saying about opposing ideas. Not really true to me. Patriotism is a natural and integral part of Nationalism. One helps keeping the personal identity, the other gives strength to unite people. We always live in a mix of both of these, plus many more other ideas.

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5. 74

   ThoughtSandwichesposted 12 years ago

   Hi gustaw...i would agree to characterize patriotism as the hand inside the velvet glove of nationalism.  I think that in cases when that "hand" is an iron fist inside that glove...you begin to see the ugly side of the nationalism. 
   
   An interesting historical parallel for this question is Stalin's response to Hitler's Operation Barbarossa...The idea of Party/State/Nationalism being a blend with PARTY first, was a bulwark of Stalin's social framework. 
   
   Under the pressure of the German Invasion...he didn't appeal to Party/State/Nationalism...he appealed to Russian Patriots to fight for "Mother Russia".  And yes...I realize "fight for the communist party" would have been a hard sell to a nation that had been brutalized by his (Stalin) every whim throughout the 1930s..

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   Justsilvieposted 12 years ago

   I think for me what was an excellent example of the divide would be the Former Yugoslavia, Tito's enforced Nationalism kept the countries together. He MADE the people act as one folk and impressed on them they were better than anyone else in Eastern Block and people know you did it his way or else. (some really believed it and still do)
   
   I would say the mindset was in no way shape or form related to Patriotism at all and we know the outcome once his influence was gone.
   
   Some of the Hubs I have read show opinions that are running in the same direction.

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