How Does One Obtain The Knowledge of Sin

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   jacharlessposted 12 years ago

   How Does One Obtain The Knowledge of Sin?
   
   This is a question I posed to several leaders and believers, recently, in developing yet another element of literature. It was odd the responses, mostly the 'deer-headlights' or 'long-awkward-pause'' before sputtering out something, I think, they really did not know what they were saying, only trying to answer the question and not feel foolish.
   
   And no, I was not bait/switching them. I was/am genuinely curious if people understand how they actually obtain knowledge of sin and its nature/effect.
   It is not something I have heard any minister discuss with a congregation or believers discuss among themselves.
   
   James.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It's innate and exhibits itself as we grow.  The word is conscience.

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      lizzieBooposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The knowledge of sin is innate. We know it as children and it is obscured by society the older we get. Like the original story of Frankenstein.

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         Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Being a man I sin all the time, because every few minutes I think about sex.
         
         Never could get to church on time to repent those sinful thoughts. Being tortured for eternity is a well acceptance by now, we will just wait and see if killing people is worst crime in Hell and what of the 9 levels of Hell I'll be sent to.

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            brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            there are no levels in hell.
            If you did some research you'd find out lots of your self condemning thoughts are incorrect and that God is well able to help you uncondemn yourself and worship something other than the female body.

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               Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               My sex thoughts are about same or maybe bit healthier than the average male person. Why would I want to feel guilty or be into denial every few minutes and switch it all over to contradicting story and extreme violent and sex in the Bible. Find me something else other than med evil time words in a book.
               
               What creature on earth can be more ultimately Beautiful than a woman

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                  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  That's a dangerous think to bring up. He'll just start talking incoherently  about gentile wiles again.

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                     Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     He keeps bringing it up, i think he likes it, now that thought may make me stop

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         jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Big Fan of M. Shelley!

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            lizzieBooposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Me too. Good discussion

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      kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Sin begins when a man thinks he understands it but he does not....
      
      Thus his misunderstanding creates sin within him but the sin hides itself at the same time pushing something in its place.
      
      How it works In reality sin is the double mindedness that see life as good and evil. So then sin deceives as offers us evil as itself.
      Unless the man understand that evil cannot exist he is unable to repair the  breach that would cause him to cease from sin.
      
      He ceases to sin when he sees all things as good.
      
      So sin can be described as ignorance...why?
      
      Because evil sees itself as good and good sees itself as evil.

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         Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         No, I think evil knows it's evil.

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            kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            If evils knows it is evil then he becomes good....
            Just like if the sons of the devil knew they were such they would repent forthwith...but they think they are the sons of God..
            
            To you I am the perfect example...
            But then I am not ignorant.....
            
            Can you say that about yourself?

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               Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               In turn, I'll ask you---did the fallen angels repent and therefore become good?   Does Satan repent and become good?  No.  Yet he knows he's evil.   Do men/women always repent and become good?  No.  Many actually take pride in being evil.  So, who is ignorant?  No one, I think, except very young people whose conscience hasn't kicked in and who don't yet have the experience to exercise control over their actions.
               What other excuse can anyone come up with?

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                  kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  With your understanding what else can you do except condemn the guiltless....
                  
                  of course to you they are full of guilt and deserve their punishment....
                  
                  And with that it is impossible to see the glory and  goodness of the Fathers creation because it is tainted by evil...not understanding the only evil you see is is that which your own eyes has made.
                  
                  So for you yes i must agree with you for you have made it so... And for you that the way it is...
                  
                  For me my eyes are clean and sees no evil...that the way I have freed myself from all sin.

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                     couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     I can agree with the fact that we cease to sin when we see all things as good. This is about as right as it gets in the universe.

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                  kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I will ask you again.....
                  Am I the son of God or the son of th the devil?
                  
                  I say I am the son of God...
                  
                  What you say?

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                     Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     If you mean THE Son of God, then of course I'll tell you that there is only one Son of God who is the Messiah, and that person is not you, because He lived on earth long ago until He was crucified and rose from the dead and ascended back into heaven.
                     If you mean you're "A" (one) son of God, as in a born-again man who has repented of his sins and accepted Christ as Savior, then I'm not gonna say you're not.
                     But...
                     you've always claimed to "be" God, am I correct in that assessment?
                     Therefore, I say you are not God, and that no man is God, and it follows that you're following a different "god".  Would that be the devil?  I'm sure you'd know which you are.

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                        kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        The nature of sin in you causes you the seek to justify your words to the extent that you are unable to see clearly enough to give a straight answer.
                        
                        To the christian any man who claims to be God or The Son of God must be the devil...
                        
                        I have claimed both.....can you answer clearly now?

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                           Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           I thought my post was clear.
                           But okay then.
                           
                           You are not God.
                           You are not the Son of God.
                           
                           You said "To the Christian any man who claims to be God or the Son of God must be the devil".....
                           And I will say No, that's not exactly true.  But indeed according to the Bible, if you're not following God you're following the devil.  See the difference?  Because the Bible tells us that Jesus is THE Son of God, and He is the only One.  Jesus calls men to choose between Him and the Adversary.  Hey, it's what the Bible says, not just what I think, so I'm not gonna call you the devil. 
                           Or perhaps you're not content to be just a follower of anyone at all?  Do you want to be seen as "the devil"?  I surely hope not.

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                           couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           kess - I understand what you're saying and agree with you but it's outside of the Christian doctrine and understanding. I believe we're all part of god, sons and daughters, children. When we can achieve the real image and likeness portrayed by Jesus and other great people we'll be one with god.
                           
                           The image and likeness of god and jesus is the example we are to strive for and it's not impossible for any of us to walk on water.

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            Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I agree with Brenda that a person knows right from wrong.
            
            Evil is a strong word, more  relating  to the absence of reason

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         jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I agree, seeing life as good-evil is the root of it.
         This was not the corect manner of a man -his original self.
         If we use the same pattern of knowledge, then it is good-evil at work...
         So, yes, I am inclined to agree, teaching only the good resolves the KOS inception.
         
         And that is very proactive.
         
         Funny, though my wife says that is spoiling him or deluding him.
         But, yet, I see him and how genuinely happy he is -about everything !!! and his expectation of more happiness to come, I can't help but confirm, what I am doing is the right thing. And why shouldn't he expect more happiness ?!
         
         I know many say that is not 'reality'. But, I believe we create reality either by action or reaction. The later being the knowledge of sin/consequence.
         
         
         Ps, Hello Kess, good to see you again.

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            kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Though we may teach a man not to sin,
            but in reality we can't...
            
            For unless     a man is self taught he cannot find the confidence within himself to forsake sin.
            
            Not withstanding it is ultimately good that the man follow along this path, for by it he develop the eyes to see the abundant Life.

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               jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               See, this is what I believe.
               If we do not teach good-evil, right-wrong -aka reasoning as consciousness/consequence (con sequence/pattern/conditioning/reactive), then man will only be proactive -seeing only good.
               
               After merely 40+ years on this planet can firmly say, by experience and watching humanity, what knowledge has done to him...

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                  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I don't know that I can agree with that. Yes, one will see their actions as good. But will they be good?
                  
                  Good is as much determined by how it effects others as how it feels to you.

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                     jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     true... continue (?)

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                        Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        I think it's like kess said. Individually, evil sees itself as good. Nothing wants to be evil. It is the interaction through which we learn what is truly good.
                        
                        I think you are right, in a way. Only because you referenced 'the law'. I don't believe in teaching children wrongs that are written in stone. Nothing is written in stone. It's all in the spirit of love and empathy that we do good. If we teach them to truly embrace that, and their actions reflect that, then you would be right. Only good would be the result.

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                           jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           I concur, 'evil' (which is the knowledge of good-evil) sees itself as good & bad.
                           As a general term, humanism. Calling evil good and good evil are identical parallels of the same rationale.
                           
                           The law refers to any ritual imposition, forceful acceptance, bendable/flexible/mutable 'objectivity'.
                           
                           So, yes, not teaching law (right-wrong; good-evil) would most definitely allow only good to be seen or embraced. But the fun thing -at least in this case- my son is already this way, by his very nature !!! Born to have the good, enjoy the good and be only good. He doesn't know anything else, save these last few months of bombardment. That is what grabbed me the most. Inadvertently, this little fellow has re~inspired -if not softened me -of all people- to be that much more proactive and truly emphasize the root of my entire quest.
                           
                           I am slightly embarrassed because if it, actually. Because, here I am instilling altruism in him and neglecting the altruism in myself...

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                              Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              I know what you mean. The innate good that emanated from my son when he was a child was a joy to interact with. His first  spoken words were I love you. We didn't raise him with religion, we simply reminded him to think about his actions and try to envision how they would effect himself and those around him. He's a very empathetic young man who does find the good in others.
                              
                              However, we are all different. I have a friend whose son has always been the opposite since I met him at 1 1/2. At 4 he chased me around the house with a butcher knife. For fun. Had the house not been built for a circular traffic pattern I have no doubt I would have been stabbed. He wasn't a bad child, his thought patterns were simply on another tangent. Even now, as a young adult who functions within the norms of society, he seems to go on what he has been taught to do...not what he understands to be the right thing to do.
                              
                              I don't know that humanity, as a whole, is ready to put aside the law.

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                                 jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 And that is perhaps the most interesting thing {if not the ultimate paradoxical effect} about the Knowledge of Sin [KOS].
                                 
                                 Lawful acceptance/enforcement provokes the Knowledge of Sin.
                                 And for humanity to pressure itself to hold fast to the law { which is actually the combined forces of equation-sensation to the utmost degree of ritualism } expounds that provocation to the greatest measure. So great a measure, man himself has trouble keeping up with it.
                                 
                                 James.

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                  kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  H Though you may teach based on your understanding a man will receive only that which he understand...
                  
                  So each learns according to himself...not  neccessarily what the teacher is teaching.
                  
                  That does not make you wrong , just that life was meant to work itself out that way.

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                     couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Each receives in his own time, the understanding. And in his own way. We can only live well and allow ourselves to be an example for another. The teacher learns while he is teaching and the seeker teaches while he is learning.

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      A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Read the Bible, that's the only place you'll find the irrational concept of sin as it does not exist apart from it.

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         Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Just woke up sippinf first cup of coffee: and I see something You said that I can not argue with, as long as we agree that sin a  "WORD: which is used in a religious concept;
         
           But does this word not stand for BAD behavior?
           What is considerer as good and bad behavior is taught at a very young age,
         
         We learn from a higher authority which might be our Mon or dad or brother etc.
         
         We also learn it from whoever loves us, such as our Mon or dad or brother etc.
         
         I sometimes wonder why some children never NEED any correction while some children need and get lots and lots with no affect to their behavior.
         
           So in my current state of half awakeness;  I'd say that knowledge of right and wrong is an instinct that is written in the hearts of mankind,  and even at a young age, we choose to succumb to this instinct or choose to overcome it.
         
            When this instinct is allowed to mature, our understanding of life increases to a level otherwise unachieved
         
         
           or something like that.

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            A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            It stands for disobeying Biblical commands and has very little to do with moral behavior or anything else.
            
             
            
            Some of us actually figure it out ourselves. It's not hard if you try. Try.

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               Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Let's be honest ATM. You weren't raised by a pack of wolves, or in a bubble. Jerami's post makes sense. Sin is simply another word for behavior that has been deemed detrimental socially. Your caregivers as you grew up were instrumental in helping you develop your understanding of right and wrong.

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                  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  For believers, yes. But, that still does not preclude the fact that sin is disobeying Biblical commands.
                  
                  
                  
                  In a way, perhaps, but it was still me who came to conclusions based on facts, evidence and critical thinking as opposed to them telling me what is right and what is wrong.
                  
                  Huge difference between that and having Biblical commands decried.

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                     Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Ok. But I don't consider sin a biblical concept. Sin is simply things that are detrimental to yourself, or others within a given society. Look at the mosaic laws.  Most can be argued to enhance the social structure of the society that chose to follow them.  In an ancient world. Most, if not all, could not be argued to enhance our lives. We have grown, matured and we are not a wild and nomadic people.
                     
                     Sin still falls into the category of recognizing behavior patterns that hurt ourselves, or others. You can pooh pooh the word choice, but I think you have certain standards of conduct and actions; outside of those boundaries you would consider wrong, or bad, or crimes against humanity. Or is life to be a free for all?

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                        A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Then, you should probably deal with that issue, first, in order to gain an understanding.
                        
                        
                        
                        That isn't even remotely relevant to how society works.
                        
                        
                        
                        Yes, but only from the perspective of an indoctrinated believer who only knows Biblical commands.
                        
                        
                        
                        That would the other extreme to sin. Of course, reality does not agree with either position nor does it operate that way.

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                           Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           I think, the more likely is that you agree and simply enjoy being difficult.

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                              A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              No, I don't agree with you and neither do scriptures.

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                                 Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 I don't recognize anything as scripture. But, I was joking. I would never think you'd agree with anything I said. Few people do.

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                                    Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    i would agree for almost everything you say
                                    
                                    except for the Christian IQ level

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                                    A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    You mean, you're in a state of denial?

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                                       Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       What? Maybe I'm confused here. My understanding is that scripture is considered to be holy. Words from a god.
                                       
                                       I see the Bible as ancient writings of man. Help me out here. How am I in denial?

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                                          A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                          The denial that sin is the disobedience of those ancient writings (scriptures). The origins and validity of those writings does not preclude the concept of sin.

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                                             Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                             So, do all the synonyms fall into the same category? If not, why are they labeled synonyms? Can't I use one word, that is a synonym of another, without being considered in denial? You are attempting to back me into an imaginary corner. Does that make you delusional?

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                                                A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                You are free to change the meaning of any word you wish, however communicating with others may prove to be difficult.
                                                
                                                
                                                
                                                If you wish to change the meaning of words, by all means, then.

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                                       Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       A Troubled Man
                                       
                                       denial only to a tiny degree

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               Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               How can you possibly think that you have learned what good and bad behavior is all by yourself?  Your subconscious is learning constantly,  only a small portion of which You become aware
               
                 It seems that you contradict yourself at every opportunity to disagree with anyone that you perceive to be a "Believer"
               
                 I think that you need to listen to yourself more often.
               
                 You would be surprised at what you might learn, if you didn't already Know-It-All.
               
               
                  Wish I could stay here all day and ....?   but I can't   will be checking in and out.

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                  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Stunning, isn't it? But, I do understand how believers would find that stunning. It's called childhood indoctrination in which Biblical commands have been force fed into their brains, crushing and removing any form of logic, reason and critical thinking skills that would allow them to come to any conclusions regarding behavior.
                  
                  If you were never brought up to think for yourself, you'll never figure things out
                  "all by yourself".

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                     lizzieBooposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     This is one of the most rudimentary anthropological questions. You credit religion with far too much in suggesting that an institution came up with the idea of sin. Sin as a word, is specifically associated with God certainly, but the knowledge of sin, or the question about where evil comes from, is as timeless, in human terms, as it is mysterious. We don't know what spark of magic or complex biological reaction causes us to feel guilt about something. There are some things we do which send ripples of malevolence across society and we know them when we see them. That knowledge may be explained away as an evolved sense of alturism. That's fine. Christianity doesn't claim to have discovered right and wrong. It sees itself as being aligned with the law of nature which in turn is aligned with an omnipotent God. Take away the 'God', and you are still left with natural law.
                     
                     With or without religion or God, people feel guilt; they feel a sense of duty and obedience to conscience. Some religions call it Karma, some believe guilt to be a metaphysical plea upon our subconscious from a loving God.

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                        A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Mysterious to you, perhaps.
                        
                        
                        
                        It ain't magic, sister. It's biological and psychological, the brain reacts to stimuli which causes nerves in the brain stem to induce sensations in our bodies. This research is going on as we speak and is becoming more and more understood.
                        
                        
                        
                        That couldn't be further from the truth.

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                           lizzieBooposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           Sadly, all your arguments are based on the premise that other people are too stupid, weak and gullible to disbelieve in God. This shows an ignorance of other people's lives which is on a par with the fanatics you so disdain.
                           Your epic faith in other people being wrong is fanatical.

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                              A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Really, I thought they were based on the irrational beliefs and claims from believers.
                              
                              
                              
                              See post above re: not mentioning reading comprehension issues.

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                           lizzieBooposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           Incidentally, you appear to have admitted that the knowledge of sin is innate and provable through science.

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                              A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              WOW! I don't want to mention reading comprehension issues, so I won't.

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                                 lizzieBooposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 I admire that you are willing to admit to having reading comprehension issues.

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                           jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           Err, Lizzie is correct. The first record if 'sin' comes from very old old Vedic and Aramaic text. About 4000 years before Christianity was invented. Albeit, Christianity may have monopolized title/copy rights to the word... Well, they and nearly every other Theos on earth.
                           
                           Do you know what science defines as sin: failed experiment, mutable, mutation, adaptation (as in antigen sin). Either way, sin is negative, accepted literally as an error or failure -be it reception, judgment, cause or effect of a thing.

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                              A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              From some scriptures, yes? In the form of some gods commands, yes?

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                                 jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 And from most scientific texts, yes? Again, sin defined as adaptable, mutable -which includes evolution- as nature mutating. The funny thing, when science changes nature, science calls it a good thing; same as religion calls what they do a good thing. Yet, the operation of sin knowledge is equally shared between them.
                                 
                                 Ain't that some $^!+@.
                                 
                                 sin(beta) cos(theta^²)=x  or sin(better) cos(that a^²)=excuses

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                                    lizzieBooposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    Thanks James. You always prove that  science and metaphysics are not just compatible but also potentially harmonious.

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                                    A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about.

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            couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Jerami - in essence you're right. Living right or living offensively is the correct answer to describe what is commonly known as sin, regardless of what the Bible says. Though the Bible does have some very good guides on how to live for those who can't observe it on their own.

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   Emile Rposted 12 years ago

   It may be innate, but it is refined by our upbringing and how well we develop our abilities to empathize. Because, sin is little more than hurting another person, or yourself. If you can't empathize, it is more difficult to understand how your actions are wrong. Imo.

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      jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Hmm, true.
      Proactive is more difficult that reactive.
      People are more inclined to react rather than pro act, to see what their action/stagnation will do/not do in light of another individual or situation.

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   jacharlessposted 12 years ago

   I agree it develops in the mind and could be the mind itself, as the mind is a collective of knowledge -an organic computation/information superconductor/processor.
   
   But there is a conflict in here, which is where I am going with it:
   The Knowledge of Life [KOL] exists in the same brain as where the Knowledge of Sin [KOS] exists.
   Friend of mine believes that area of the brain has been shut off/restricted.
   He also thinks this is what happened at the Adamic Inception. Adams brain was closed off/partitioned to just this little area where natural information was being processed at 100x the speed of visible light. 
   
   Someone reminded me earlier that the 'law' provokes the knowledge of sin; makes us conscious of that knowledge system.
   
   
   It occurred to me, recently, as my son -now 3+, is being bombarded from his pre-k education and tele- with reactive situations. I have caught myself several times telling what 'not' to do [the rules of do-do not] versus simply explaining  the do -without the trailing 'or else, or if, consequence' attachment. I think by giving him strictly a proactive way of thinking, he will be more inclined to the KOL and less likely to 'be afraid or assume threat/reaction/defense'.
   
   My friend and I are thinking of an experimental program for children that focuses solely of living proactive, not by 'reasoning' through situations but through proactive action -which I suppose we could title practical faith.
   
   
   James.

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   mischeviousmeposted 12 years ago

   sin
   1    [sin] Show IPA noun, verb, sinned, sin·ning.
   
   noun
   1.
   transgression of divine law: the sin of Adam.
   
   2.
   any act regarded as such a transgression, especially a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.
   
   3.
   any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense: It's a sin to waste time.
   
   Hopefully people see their own sins, before that of another.

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   Jeramiposted 12 years ago

   Well said couturepopcafe   ....  for those who can't observe it on their own.
   
   
       I like that concept

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   mischeviousmeposted 12 years ago

   Most people this day in age lack humillity in one form or another, they call people out on their transgressions, rarely acknowledging their own. Then again, people are afraid to judge themselve's, for fear they may be admitting being wrong. If one complains about another to their boss, it's best they admit their own mistakes first. Of course being humble is hard to do, especially when one is more worried about what other people will think. It's all about image now, so the sins of the self are easier to ignore, considering the fact that we are more interested in what others are doing and less so being mindful of their affect on a social level.
   
   It seems the social climate these days, has become cold and self serving, society isn't so enlightened afterall.
   
   Where has all the accountabillity gone? We have become like politicians, we tend to pass the buck, rarely admitting fault.

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