Has the Universe been around forever? No, therefore there is a God

1. 69

   chasemillisposted 11 years ago

   Matter cannot be created or destroyed. Ok that's easy.
   So that means that the Universe has been around forever. That would be great, except there are no real world examples of infinity. If infinity is not a quality of anything in the Universe, how can it be a quality of the Universe? It doesn't correlate.
   But you say, "We can prove infinity, just look at a circle, it has infinite points" Ok well what happens when you try to draw the circle? Logically, if there were infinite points, it would take you an infinite amount of time to finish drawing that circle (cause you'd have to go through an infinite amount of points). But we can draw a circle (or a line, parabola, basically anything on a graph), so that's not a logical proof of infinity.
   Same thing with a race to a finish line. Mathematically you would agree that there is a midpoint btwn the runner and the finish line; as well there is a midpoint btwn THAT midpoint and the finish line, and so on and so on. But the runner still finishes the race.
   
   So basically, unless the Universe spawned out of nothing (which is not possible according to Newton's law), it must have been either created or it must have been around for an infinite amount of time. And because there are no real world examples where infinity exists in the Universe (even the Universe if finite..it's growing but it's still finite), it must have been created by a higher being. Therefore God exists.
   
   Ok guys let's see what you got, have fun with this! I probably won't respond just because I never look at these on Hubpages. I will definitely check it out in a couple weeks or months though.
   
   
   My question to you is to prove infinity in the Universe. Without the theory of infinity existing, the Universe has to have been created by a higher being.
   And for all we know the Big Bang could have been how He started it.

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   1. 58

      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Sorry, but your conclusion does not follow. The finite amount of matter in the universe has nothing to do with the law of energy conservation prior to the Big Bang because the laws of physics only came into existence just after the BB.
      
      
      
      Newtons laws have nothing to do with the beginning of the universe, which instead is based on derivatives of General Relativity (Einstein)
      
      
      
      Your premises are false and your conclusions are based on them.

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         Cassiethehempgirlposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         A troubled man- you sir, you and i will have to talk- you know what you're talkin about, sir!! i dig it

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      2. 69

         chasemillisposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         How does something come from nothing (eg the Big Bang basically a big explosion of nothingness that turned into something-ness, for lack of a better phrase)
         
         It was either a Big Bang that came from nothign or a Big Bang of something that has been around for an infinite amount of time (contracted..etc)

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         1. 58

            A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            You would also have to explain how a god made something from nothing. See how that works?
            
            
            
            Perhaps, but you fail to acknowledge other alternatives.

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   2. 71

      Titen-Sxullposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Has God been around forever?
      
      No?
      
      Than there is a Super God?
      
      OR
      
      Has God been around forever?
      
      Yes.
      
      Than why can't the matter and energy that make-up the Universe have been around forever? It would save us a step.

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      1. 60

         Cassiethehempgirlposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         this post... is not even comprehensible. say what???

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   3. 75

      jacharlessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      In that case, there is no such thing as Evolution nor Big Bang. There was no such "nothing" that became something. You have just destroyed every ounce of science.  And stating because matter cannot be destroyed or created does not have anything to do with a Creator existing or not existing. It would actually emphasize said existing simply by the eternal -indestructible- universe.
      
      To sum up the theists explanation: God is the universe, and everything within.
      If correct, everything science is observing is God and everything they cannot/have not observed, yet is still God.
      
      From many scientific friends, they have no interest in "finding" or "refuting" the existence of g/Gods. So, it seems the extremists of their religion are the ones "hellbent" on such findings/refutations. Making these extremists as equally lacking in intellectual fortitude as their sensationalistic brothers.
      
      Think before you rant. Not just think, but think with clarity. Else you sound like deafness ~anon.
      
      James.

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      1. 69

         chasemillisposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         That's an explanation for (pan)theists, not theists. God isn't everything, that idea is contradictory. That idea states that everything within the Universe is God, but God has always been around (for an infinite amount of time) and the world has not (it has not been around forever - we can prove that); so it's basically a contradiction (earth = finite amount of time, God = infinite amount of time). I don't think I need to explain that any further.
         
         What I'm saying is that either there was nothing that turned into something (when the Big Bang happened or what have you, if you believe it did), or there has always been matter/substance in our  Universe and it has existed for an infinite amount of time. If you don't believe in a God who created the Universe, those are your only two options.

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         1. 58

            A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Nonsense, there are other potential explanations that don't require the invoking of invisible super beings nor do they invoke the concept that matter must have existed for an infinite amount of time.
            
            And, since there isn't a shred of evidence to support either of those, the other alternatives most likely will hold the correct answer.

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   4. 0

      jomineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Good. it's quite simple.
      
      
      Easy deduction, if you take the all the matter and space as universe.
      
      What has infinity got to do with universe? Infinite is the opposite of finite. Finite is the property of objects. Only objects are finite. And there are no infinite objects. So infinity has nothing to do with universe. Infinite universe(universe is object + space) is common parlance with no meaning.
      
      If someone has to create, the something must pre-exist, whether god or anything. your own argument preclude the existence of something like that. So universe is here all the 'time,' only the form is changing. Universe is not growing. The only event that can happen is objects moving away from each other.
      
      
      
      Theory of infinity??
      If the universe cannot exist, how does the one who 'created' it exist? After all 'time' is just change in location/position of objects. There is nothing called time, the universe is eternal.

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      1. 69

         chasemillisposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Exactly, there are NO infinite objects...how can the Universe have qualities (infinite qualities) that no object (also nothing actually inside the universe) actually possesses
         Secondly, yes infinity has nothing to do with the Universe b/c they don't correlate. Nothing in this Universe is infinite, therefore it cannot have existed for an infinite amount of time.
         And if you want to think of it as the moving of something as time then fine. But knowing that infinity has nothing to do with the Universe and that it cannot correlate means that something must have started the movement at some point (an Initial Mover: eg a Creator (or even God if you don't want to say Creator)).
         
         I'm not precluding the existence of a God or higher power, I'm just using the knowledge that it is illogical to say that the Universe has been around for an infinite amount of time, and because of which, it had to either be created or had an initial mover to set things in motion.
         The one who created it can exist b/c he is outside of the Universe, and He's not bound by the laws which our Universe is bound by. You can't fully prove the existence of God, I will say that. God made it that way so that we have to have faith in Him. What good is it if He just gave us all the answers to everything. But I would say it takes more faith to believe that there isn't a God than the other way around. That's a whole different spiel tho

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         1. 0

            jomineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I didn't understand you quite well, but I'll attempt an answer.
            Universe is not infinite. Universe is a concept which includes all the existing objects and space.
            
            
            What is shape(finite/infinite) has anything to do with motion(time). Again, neither eternal nor incessant counting is infinite. Motion is eternal.
            Again you attribute properties that you say cannot occur to a being, contradicting yourself.
            
            
            
            The only thing that can be said for sure is matter exists and it is in motion in relation to each other. Creation is irrational, that is there is an inherent contradiction hence cannot happen.
            
            
            Nothing can be outside the universe, for universe is a concept. Universe include a border-less space. We can be only outside things - that which has borders, not outside space,as it has no borders to be outside of. It really needs faith to believe in somebody who say there is god, while oblivious to all logic and reason.
            Proofs have nothing to do with it. It is, can you define god and explain its presence without contradicting yourself?

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         2. 58

            A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            It would be very good. We would know how to cure cancer and a host of other ailments, diseases and sickness that kills people mercilessly and painfully. We would have no differences between people such that they war against each other.
            
            Instead, we have a huge menagerie of various gods that divide and conquer us and have us treat others as enemies who are evil and corrupt, simply because they don't accept our version of god.
            
            It is that faith in Him that is causing the problems.

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   5. 60

      twosheds1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I would direct you to Lawrence Krauss' most recent book, A Universe From Nothing, in which he posits that the universe probably did come from nothing, because nothing is unstable (though perhaps "nothingness is unstable" might be a clearer way to state that). He goes on to state that it is wrong to ask "What was there before the Big Bang?" There was no "before." Time, and therefore the universe, began at the Big Bang. Similarly, there is no "outside" the universe.
      
      I think you have the circle analogy wrong, too. There are indeed an infinite number of points available on a circle, though I suppose one would be bound by the size of sub-atomic particles that make up the circle. So I guess that's not really infinite, but it is functionally infinite. There is infinity in numbers, however. No matter what number you name, they can always get bigger, with the only limit being what we can physically assign a number to. Again, conceptually infinite, but bound by practicality.
      
      As to whether the possibility of infinity implies a creator, I think that's a tremendous leap of logic. Gaps in our understanding do not equal God. That is called, somewhat perjoratively, the "argument from ignorance." It's like seeing strange lights in the sky and assuming they're alien spacecraft: "I don't know what those light are, therefore they must be aliens."

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      1. 69

         chasemillisposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Yes, you are exactly right. Mathematically, we can show that a circle has infinite  points and that numbers can go on forever. But if there were an infinite amount of angles we would never be able to draw a circle. Apply that to life, we would never be able to move b/c there would be infinite amount of points btwn point A and point B
         But we still get from point A to point B. And as for numbers, they just describe things, the number infinity is not a quality of anything in the Universe. Like you said, practicality. Practically, infinity doesn't make sense in our Universe
         As for your last part, I'm implying that the possibility of (NON)infinity implies a creator, so finite-ness. There's no gap b/c if the amount of time the Universe has existed is finite, then it had to start at one point. If it had to start, even if it needed a "Mover" to get things going, there has to be something that did the moving/etc...which is what most ppl call God.
         The alien spacecraft part at the end is not the same. In that you are assuming. B/c the Universe is finite (time/etc..), there HAD to be something to start it. No assumptions.
         An assumption might be to assume the power of the creator/mover, but that's not what we're talking about

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            twosheds1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            If it had to start, even if it needed a "Mover" to get things going, there has to be something that did the moving/etc...
            
            Why does there have to be a mover? In our frame of reference, there is always a "before." But there was a point at which there was no "before." The univere exists (according to Krauss) because there is no other way it could have been. Again, we're limited in our thinking because of our frame of reference, but that's how it is. Watch the video, and read the book. There's some atheist stuff thrown in both, but ignore that and focus on the theory.

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   6. 60

      twosheds1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Here's a video if you don't wanna read the book:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZiXC8Yh4T0

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   7. 73

      That Grrlposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Where did "He" live if there was no universe? If god is in man's image how did he breathe, what did he eat when there was nothing? Your thesis has a lot of holes, but it was interesting to read.

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   8. 0

      Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Fascinating, You're having trouble understanding that everything has a beginning, middle and ending, so you invent an immortal God that always existed to explain why everything begins and ends with the exception of the God you just invented. Do you not see the irony?

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      1. 60

         twosheds1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I think that's the point: God(s) exist outside of the time and space we are used to, and thus aren't subject to the same laws of nature. I'm not saying I agree with that, I'm just saying that's the logic.

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         1. 0

            jomineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            That is not logic. The premise is that everything need creation. Then they exempt god from that without any reason and when asked about the contradiction, they wink.
            PS. Time and space are concepts hence not even god will be able to go outside, if he wants to exist.

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               twosheds1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

               OK "logic" might be a bit of a stretch. "Excuse" might have been a better term.

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         2. 0

            Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            It's a rationalization and not logic.

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         jomineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         If people started to think for themselves, there won't be any religions.

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2. 60

   Cassiethehempgirlposted 11 years ago

   I honestly disagree with you on this. There is an infinite amount of matter in the universe, and the universe is always expanding- the very definition of infinite, because the possibilities are infinate. What you refer to as God was really just an experiment, I believe I would know this better than a large majority of people.... But nonetheless, the human race itself is a experiment gone horribly awry. Therefore, God doesn't exist. Not on this plane, at least. Any Diety that DOES exist has only been manifested and appears to those that blindly give it power. Same concept as what gives Hell the power to condemn souls. Same concept.

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   1. 69

      chasemillisposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Just because the Universe is expanding it doesn't mean it's not finite; it means that it's getting bigger. It's getting bigger at an accelerating rate, yes, but it we had the ability to look to the ends of the Universe we'd be able to measure it.
      Think about it like filling up a cup with water as you slowly pour at more of an angle. It's definitely pouring more water in there, and it's filling up faster and faster, but we can measure the amount of water that is in our cup/bowl/what have you.
      Secondly, if matter is infinite then how do we move. Infinite amount of matter btwn you and a destination, yet you still get there. It would take an infinite amount of time to go anywhere b/c you'd have to travel thru an infinite amount of matter.
      If you are talking about the "ends" of the Universe, you are pre-supposing it's unending behavior with no proof (no actual example that we can look at and 'without a doubt' say that it is an example of infinity in the Universe). The Universe is finite, and everything (within our power and technology to observe) is measurable to a certain degree.
      Infinity is just a way for us to describe behaviors and patterns
      Lastly, your argument about the human race being an experiment does not make sense. You're basicalyl saying that since humankind is bad God doesn't exist. There is no correlation btwn the two.
      I'm not even sure what you are trying to say about the last part, not sure I've heard that from anyone before. What's the difference between a Diety and a God (in your opinion)?

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      1. 60

         Cassiethehempgirlposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Diety- something God-like. Plain and simple. A diety was worshipped, given enough power through belief, and it may manifest- same as how polteirgeist activity can really be explained through the manifestation of troubled teen emotions and troubled child emotions and outbursts of energy. Humans themselves can have infinite energy- we're like rechargable energizer bunnies- we can run basiclly forever- if our brains would allow us to do so, it would be completely possible. the only limitations we have are those that we give ourselves, none more, none less.

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   2. 58

      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      That is incorrect, there is a "finite" amount of matter in the universe.

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3. 0

   Emile Rposted 11 years ago

   It doesn't matter whether the universe had a beginning, or was always here. Knowing one way or the other doesn't prove, or disprove, the existence of God. Nor would either scenario imply reality to be an experiment gone awry, as the hemp girl suggests.

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   1. 69

      chasemillisposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Yes it does. If the Universe had a beginning, it had to be created by something higher than it (eg a God outside of the Physics of the Universe)
      If there was no beginning, then you can't definitively prove it either way

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      1. 96

         wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Apparently not true.  Creation does not imply a creator (intelligent or otherwise) according the laws of quantum mechanics as we currently understand them.  The "time" and "construction" of the Big Bang were definitely non-Newtonian in nature and Newtonian physics cannot be applied to either one.
         
         I confess I do not understand quantum mechanics well at all, but can only take the word of those that do.  Stephen Hawking is on record as saying that there need not be a "cause" for the Big Bang and as far as I've seen no one has even tried to refute that statement.  At least no one actually conversant in the physics involved.

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            Cassiethehempgirlposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Legitness.... Truly spoken like a man from humble roots defending his beliefs.... May be hope for the human race, yet.

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         2. 75

            jacharlessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Correct. Because a "cause" determines its "effect". The S matrix theory was not thoroughly in line with this, hence why QM and other sciences clashed on the idea. QM and even QCD states there need not be any cause to determine a test, because the test is the application of the mechanic itself. Where as traditional methods require a cause, an observable, a testable and a determination.
            
            The Big Bang never happened. Evolution never happened. Energy just took on a face or parameter unknown to humans. QP accepts there is no possible way to prove the existence of either event. Therefore, it is counter-logical to try. What we do know and can observe is energy to -now the ultra-subatomic 'size' -defies every established law of traditional physics -including relative, gravity, species, space, measure {time, distance, direction}.
            
            When or if it is thoroughly explorer, this thing called space, which is a matrix, a system, of its very own and completely unknown to humans, it may shed "light" on how it all came to be as we see it today. Ironically, space is the 800 zillion trillion metric ton elephant in the room and everyone is trying to find it.
            
            James.

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      2. 0

         Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         We don't have the information required to state whether the universe always was, or had a beginning. Speculation is one thing, claiming knowledge is another. Either way, it doesn't prove God.

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4. 88

   TheMagicianposted 11 years ago

   You can't know these things for sure. There's no use even bothering. Just enjoy being alive.
   Seriously, there are way too many religion threads in these forums. What's worse is it's always the same thing. At least spice things up with something different.
   
   =/

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   1. 69

      chasemillisposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Haha I don't mean to be mean or make anyone mad, I am just genuinely curious to see if anyone has a logical rebuttal to this

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5. 74

   lorlie6posted 11 years ago

   "Has the universe been around forever?  No, therefore there is a God" 
   Sorry, your logic is flawed.  Check out some books on proper logic and syllogisms and you'll see what I mean.

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   1. 69

      chasemillisposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Read my real post lorlie6, I put that to get people into the thread

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6. 83

   psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago

   I see no reason to assume only God could cause the universe.  That is an assumption based purely on pre-existing faith.

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      chasemillisposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Not assuming God at all. There's just no proof of infinity in the Universe that we can point to. So it had to be created at some point.

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         psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         No, it had to come into existence.  Being created assumes a creator whether you call it God or not. The word creation does indeed imply a creator. I see no reason to assume the universe could not come into being spontaneously. Then it would not be a creation, just a phenomenon.

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            Cassiethehempgirlposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            exactly... thank-you. A big bang, does not mean something caused it. it just happens.

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         2. 69

            chasemillisposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            You're denying Newton's law with that though. You're saying that matter can be spontaneously created from nothing, which is a law of the Universe.
            Nothing never creates something. If you can show me just one example of where that has happened I will be impressed.
            If the world WAS created, who said it couldn't have been through a Big Bang? It never specifies how it's created...

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               psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               You are misunderstanding Newton's law which is descriptive of current conditions only.  And I am saying we have no reason to believe the universe was created, a point you don't seem to be willing to engage with.  It most likely had a beginning.  And during that beginning physics as we know it come into existence along with matter.  The laws of physical cannot be applied before the existence of matter--they didn't exist then.

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      2. 60

         Cassiethehempgirlposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         chasemillis: I believe that this statement is somewhat misleading- infinity is all around us, infinite possibilities, infinite black matter, infinite amount of thoughts per minute. there are many infinite things.

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         1. 69

            chasemillisposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            You can have an infinite amount of thoughts per minute?
            It describes possibilities, not what we can actually accomplish. My thing is, if you can actually have an infinite amount of thoughts in a minute then yes it's possible. However, having a million thoughts in a minute if pretty dang hard to do. Infinity is just a way to describe things, it's not actually present in the Universe

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               jacharlessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Yet, every human is "doing" it, meaning having thoughts every minute -more accurately every uber nanosecond. by all accounts, the probabilities of a single thought are infinite. Multiply that one thought by just one more independent thought and you have a mathematical infinity.Hmm, dare I say the universe is infinity and proves that it is.
               
               James

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               psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               He said infinite possibilities--which is accurate.  The thoughts we can have a minute are not a metric of the entirety of existence.  The universe does not care about our little thoughts.

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   Cassiethehempgirlposted 11 years ago

   No,what I've been saying, and you all should REALLY listen to this part- is that the humans are an experiment gone horribly awry- from a different plane of existence. Anybody who says there arent different dimensions, is full of themselves and should be eaten by what's in the rift. Now, for those of you out there with some kind of belief that there is something greater, then listen up. There might be- but he didn't create it. And there is no way we can measure ALL the matter in the universe- including, but not limitied to, dark matter. dark matter, in itself, is immeasurable- therefore, infinite. Energy itself is infinite, which creates more matter-thus the ever-expanding universe we know and see today. Most of you believe there is some kind of magical all-powerful diety that put this all into motion- there isn't. What is going on, is that the architects are getting pissed off at you giving credit to a FALSE GOD. "He/She/It" DOES NOT exist. It is a figment of the imagination- as you will all surely see within the next three to seven years to come- many of you following this false god will be led to certain doom- only those within thr capacity to understand, adapt, and change will make it through the coming change. This is, quite literally, the ONLY warning humans will get for any hopes of their own survival- use it if you choose to, if not, good luck following the false and somewhat new diety.I agree with the gentlemen below- quantum physics, people. Refute that.

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      chasemillisposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Yes of course there are different dimensions.
      Secondly, you have to prove that dark matter exists first. It's hypothetical, nothing that can actually be proven (as opposed to antimatter which can be tested in a lab)
      Thirdly, energy doesn't create more matter, it just goes from one form to another.
      Fourthly, who are the "architects" you are talking about? Do you think they contribute to the 'certain doom'?

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         Cassiethehempgirlposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         No. Certain Doom was a sealed deal to begin with, so to speak. the Architects? Ancient beings. Far more advanced than humans will ever be, though it is highly unlikely you will ever meet one. If you have met one, you wouldn't notice they're not exactly... from here. They're all around us- walk, talk, and act just like humans- but they have extremely old souls, and only other old souls can properly identify them. And even then, its questionable. In short, architects are the only reason this plane of existence is still operational- but they themselves? In this plane, appear completely human. As a matter of fact- by all genetic rights- they ARE human... But they didn't used to be. Everything you used to think was fiction? You may be surprised- its all going to collide. Every bit of it. Should people live to tell the tale, they'll have met and personally known the architects. The architects are, by all rights, the "God" so many people attribute both horrible and wonderful things to. This is, quite literally, the only truth humans could possibly glean off of someone like me... as a matter of fact, by saying this, im saying too much. just bear what I've said in mind- fairy-tale may turn out to be very much real.

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            chasemillisposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            So how do you knw this

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   psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago

   Matter cannot be created or destroyed now (as far as we can tell).  Things were not always like they are now.

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      ytbot1xposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      How? Explain that...if you can.

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