Arguments with the religious reviewed.

Jump to Last Post 1-3 of 3 discussions (4 posts)
  1. emrldphx profile image57
    emrldphxposted 6 years ago

    These are some arguments Pcunix presents in one of his threads. Trying to prove God can't exist.

    "A thing cannot be self created

    That should be axiomatic, but some theists want to argue it. Any such arguments are, of course, circular: A god can self create, therefore my god is possible.

    Self creation implies that the power and intent exists prior to the "god". That's circular, so we can dismiss that immediately. If we want a "god", it is either created by something else, or it has existed forever."

    This is only an argument against the idea of a God who created him/her/itself out of nothing. I really don't have a personal problem with it, but the entire argument is based on our assumption that matter cannot be created or destroyed(including energy). If it did turn out to be possible for something to create itself out of nothing, then that would be an area that we have no precedence, no rules, and no experimental data for. In other words, we would have no idea.

    Any other type of creation other than 'from nothing' doesn't really qualify as self-created. Self-evolved would be a better term in that instance.

    "Turtles all the way down


    A common response for the self created problem is to move the god to some other place - another Universe, an alternate physics.

    This doesn't help and is only a variation of "turtles all the way down", which plainly deserves no more discussion."

    Actually, the thought of other dimensions or universes fits much better with our understanding that matter cannot be created or destroyed. Let's imagine that God is a person with the technological ability to gather pure energy, compact it, place it in an empty place, and create a Big Bang. That would provide an explanation for a way in which God could create the universe(not from nothing, just forming it). This doesn't break the requirement for matter always existing(in energy form in this case). Pcunix would say 'Well, where did that God come from?'. That God could have come from chance, in a universe that always existed. Or, he could have been part of a group of Gods that always existed. Because we know matter and energy to have always existed, then there is no requirement for a 'first'. Trying to ask 'where did the first God' come from is the same as asking 'where did the first matter come from'. Neither came from nothing at any point. They always existed.

    In simple terms, you can't put a stipulation on defining the first moment when God was created if you don't also put a stipulation on defining the first moment when matter was created.

    "Eternal existence


    This is where theists usually land when trying to escape logical paradoxes.

    Unfortunately, it does not help.

    A thing that has existed forever cannot be composed of other things because that obviously means THOSE things existed before it. Such a creature is no god, and it plainly it has to obey the physics that make its parts work. It could ONLY be a physical creature."

    Pcunix moves into this eternal mode, and makes an egregious error. He states that a God could not exist for ever, because the particles that make up God must have existed before him. This is logically false. If God existed forever, then all the matter/energy that makes him up also existed forever. You can't go to the moment before God was if he existed forever.

    Otherwise, Pcunix would have to define where the matter that made up God came from.

    If A is capable of having always existed, then it is possible for B to have always existed.

    "This IS the simple argument: any sentient thing HAS to be composed of simpler parts, and those parts MUST obey some physics - it doesn't have to be OUR physics, of course, but physics is necessary.

    Please remember: moving your god to some alternate physics doesn't help. It needs a physics, it needs rules. It is bound by those rules, it can ONLY be a natural product of those rules."

    Pcunix further confuses himself stating that everything must be a natural product of natural rules. So, at what point was matter and energy created from these rules? The answer is, of course, that it wasn't. It always existed. If it didn't, where did those rules come from?

    Pcunix requires both that something exists forever, and that it be created from natural rules that existed before it. His arguments are based on a double-edged framework.


    I apologize, I don't have time to finish right now and this is in a very rough format. I look forward to Pcunix's reply, or anyone else's thoughts.

    1. Pcunix profile image89
      Pcunixposted 6 years ago

      I told you already:  I went up and down this last year in this forum.  I have no interest in doing it again.

      1. emrldphx profile image57
        emrldphxposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Right.

        Just making sure, as you know so much more than I do.

    2. pennyofheaven profile image79
      pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago

      Gees I remember that hotly debated thread. We all know Gods existence cannot be proved or disproved but it was one of the most popular threads at the time. Especially when one claims they can prove God does not exist. Everybody wants to know whether they believe or don't believe in God.

      Anyway your post bought to mind a theory..

      How do we know we are not a universe within a universe? Scientist do not know what came before the big bang even though that in itself is a theory. Assuming they know what they are talking about its not too outrageous to ponder over whether or not we could be the result of what is known as a black hole. A star collapses into itself and the big bang occurs within the black hole creating a whole new universe. Perhaps that is why our universe is expanding.

     
    working

    This website uses cookies

    As a user in the EEA, your approval is needed on a few things. To provide a better website experience, hubpages.com uses cookies (and other similar technologies) and may collect, process, and share personal data. Please choose which areas of our service you consent to our doing so.

    For more information on managing or withdrawing consents and how we handle data, visit our Privacy Policy at: https://hubpages.com/privacy-policy#gdpr

    Show Details
    Necessary
    HubPages Device IDThis is used to identify particular browsers or devices when the access the service, and is used for security reasons.
    LoginThis is necessary to sign in to the HubPages Service.
    Google RecaptchaThis is used to prevent bots and spam. (Privacy Policy)
    AkismetThis is used to detect comment spam. (Privacy Policy)
    HubPages Google AnalyticsThis is used to provide data on traffic to our website, all personally identifyable data is anonymized. (Privacy Policy)
    HubPages Traffic PixelThis is used to collect data on traffic to articles and other pages on our site. Unless you are signed in to a HubPages account, all personally identifiable information is anonymized.
    Amazon Web ServicesThis is a cloud services platform that we used to host our service. (Privacy Policy)
    CloudflareThis is a cloud CDN service that we use to efficiently deliver files required for our service to operate such as javascript, cascading style sheets, images, and videos. (Privacy Policy)
    Google Hosted LibrariesJavascript software libraries such as jQuery are loaded at endpoints on the googleapis.com or gstatic.com domains, for performance and efficiency reasons. (Privacy Policy)
    Features
    Google Custom SearchThis is feature allows you to search the site. (Privacy Policy)
    Google MapsSome articles have Google Maps embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
    Google ChartsThis is used to display charts and graphs on articles and the author center. (Privacy Policy)
    Google AdSense Host APIThis service allows you to sign up for or associate a Google AdSense account with HubPages, so that you can earn money from ads on your articles. No data is shared unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
    Google YouTubeSome articles have YouTube videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
    VimeoSome articles have Vimeo videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
    PaypalThis is used for a registered author who enrolls in the HubPages Earnings program and requests to be paid via PayPal. No data is shared with Paypal unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
    Facebook LoginYou can use this to streamline signing up for, or signing in to your Hubpages account. No data is shared with Facebook unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
    MavenThis supports the Maven widget and search functionality. (Privacy Policy)
    Marketing
    Google AdSenseThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    Google DoubleClickGoogle provides ad serving technology and runs an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    Index ExchangeThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    SovrnThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    Facebook AdsThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    Amazon Unified Ad MarketplaceThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    AppNexusThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    OpenxThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    Rubicon ProjectThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    TripleLiftThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    Say MediaWe partner with Say Media to deliver ad campaigns on our sites. (Privacy Policy)
    Remarketing PixelsWe may use remarketing pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to advertise the HubPages Service to people that have visited our sites.
    Conversion Tracking PixelsWe may use conversion tracking pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to identify when an advertisement has successfully resulted in the desired action, such as signing up for the HubPages Service or publishing an article on the HubPages Service.
    Statistics
    Author Google AnalyticsThis is used to provide traffic data and reports to the authors of articles on the HubPages Service. (Privacy Policy)
    ComscoreComScore is a media measurement and analytics company providing marketing data and analytics to enterprises, media and advertising agencies, and publishers. Non-consent will result in ComScore only processing obfuscated personal data. (Privacy Policy)
    Amazon Tracking PixelSome articles display amazon products as part of the Amazon Affiliate program, this pixel provides traffic statistics for those products (Privacy Policy)