Panpsychism

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   janesixposted 8 years ago

   Panpsychism is the idea that everything has some level of consciousness, down to individual atoms. I like this idea. What are your thoughts on this?

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Sounds like you believe in God tonight.

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         janesixposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         If the whole universe is God, then probably I do.

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      BuddiNsenseposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Do your left hand think differently from right?

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      Live to Learnposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I'm a firm believer in that notion and I think we've seen some evidence to support it.

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         janesixposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         What evidence? I'd like to see that.

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            Live to Learnposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            I hesitate to respond, because this is (as with many questions) dependent upon personal opinion on myriad levels prior to thoughts on this topic. As someone else pointed out, there is evidence which can imply that even on the atomic level there is some possible affirmation of change in outcomes if an observer is involved. The meaning is open to debate. It's simply an oddity which no one can currently fully explain.
            
            But, we do see repeating patterns from the top of what we can observe all the way to the bottom of what we can observe. This implies more to me than a random collection of accidents and mutations. A progression of building on a theme. As we study life, we find that it is more complex than first imagined. Which, to me, implies that the more we study the more complex we will find it to be. Life, as we define it, is simply one of the parts of reality as we know it. I see no reason to believe that as we learn more about reality we will expand our definition of life.
            
            As to showing you the evidence I spoke of; it's all around and in most every study of our universe that you read about. It's simply a matter of where you think the evidence leads. We all have a different opinion on what information ultimately means.

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      wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      What kind of evidence can be provided to show that a rock or atom has consciousness?  Until that is done, it will remain an idea only but not one that should be accepted as having any truth at all in it.

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         janesixposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         I'm not sure. I haven't thought through it yet that far.I'm not sure what evidence would show consciousness.

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         Oztinatoposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         Apparently experiments with atoms shows results differ if human consciousness is observing the experiment just as if there is a mutual consciousness.
         Also DNA itself which is a bunch of molecules act " intelligently " to look after its own survival  (see Dawkins/Cox/Hawking)

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            wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Does that mean human consciousness has an effect or that the atom is conscious?
            
            DNA only acts "intelligently" if you consider the laws of chemistry and physics to be "intelligent" as well, for that's all they do.

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               Oztinatoposted 8 years agoin reply to this

               Scientists are at a loss to explain what is happening. There appears to be a mutual interaction between human consciousness and atomic consciousness.
               DNA is just a string of molecules which atheist researchers are always crediting with sohpisticated intelligence and all kinds of motives which manifest in "our" world in everything from the choices we make, sexual preferences etc right down to the very smallest decisions, appetites and feelings. This is not basic or illusory intelligence but a highly sophisticated intelligence operating at an atomic level.

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                  wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  Don't be silly - you cannot draw unwarranted conclusions because you don't know the right answer.  There may be an affect on events from human consciousness, but to declare it is an interaction between consciousness's is not a valid conclusion.  Similarly, giving DNA consciousness because it follows the laws of chemistry, etc. just isn't shown by any actions, events or anything else.

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      psycheskinnerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      To me there is a level at which consciousness can really said to occur.  I am not at it at least a third of the time so I doubt that it is a concept that can be functionally applied to my coffee cup.

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      Slarty O'Brianposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I'd say atoms have a rudimentary awareness/precursor to awareness.

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         wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         What makes you think so?  How can you tell?

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            its a valid supposition.

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               wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

               Again, based on what?  What makes it valid?

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  Based on the knowledge retained over centuries in India. Knowledge from more enlightened ages.

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            Slarty O'Brianposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Proximity, forces like the week and strong, and higher energy out puts trigger responses according to physical laws. These cause and effect  auto reactions are needs. The atom needs to lower its energy output and does what it can to do so. I'm saying this is a precursor to basic awareness.
            
            
            I'm not saying an atom actually feels needs or is self aware. I'm saying that more complex systems develop awareness from this dynamic A bacteria has a basic awareness even though one would wonder and perhaps doubt that it is self aware.
            
            I see it as an evolution from auto response to rudimentary awareness, to awareness, to self awareness.
            
            Since there is nothing but energy, energy in the form of humans is fully self aware. So it seem reasonable that energy and the laws that rule it are conducive to creating full awareness under the right conditions.
            
            Short of there being a god, it seems logical..

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               wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

               "The atom needs to lower its energy output and does what it can to do so."
               
               I don't see that.  Rather I see entropy happening without any need for consciousness.  The atom drops back to a lower state of energy because that's what things do - not because it was conscious of being "ramped up" and wanted back down.
               
               Same for evolution; random events do not come from consciousness and neither does the ability to run away from a cheetah.  It just is, that's all.
               
               Energy and the laws that rule it may be conducive to creating consciousness, but that does not mean that either one is also conscious at all.  Everything we know of (every single thing) that exhibits any consciousness at all is a living thing, with all that implies.  On the other hand, not a single thing that is NOT alive has ever exhibited any form of consciousness; it is logical, then, to assume that only life produces consciousness.

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                  Slarty O'Brianposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  Didn't mention the word conscious once. Aware and conscious aren't the same thing.

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                     wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                     Assumed you were using them interchangeably as the thread is about consciousness. 
                     
                     What is the difference, as you see it?

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                        Slarty O'Brianposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                        Good question. It's a matter of degree. I start with auto response, a sort of hard wired instinctual reaction. Atoms don't just get blown with the wind, so to speak, they are active and interactive. Which I think is a precursor to rudimentary awareness
                        
                        From there basic biology would have rudimentary awareness, It knows when some thing else is near etc. It uses mostly chemical cues. Then there is basic awareness, at this point feelings might trigger responses as well as chemical cues.
                        
                        Then there is awareness with full blown emotional cues as well as more complex instinct. And then self awareness, leading to consciousness which includes communication skills, self identity in varying degrees etc, to human consciousness incorporating complex language and heightened self awareness and self identity.

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   Oztinatoposted 8 years ago

   The Hindus have been saying the same thing for possibly 10,000 years. To give such ideas a new Western label is not totally accurate. Hindus have been saying God is pure energy for their entire history yet many atheists have the gall to say "they got it from modern scientists"!
   There are many such examples of such behaviour. Recently some scientist tried to patent a human chromosome as if they had "invented" it. This kind of inverted thinking obscures the truth that spirituality has preceded science in areas of human thought and endeavour NOT the other way around.

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      janesixposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I didn't even know there was a word for it until recently. Then I studied some more and learned the idea is thousands, if not tens of thousands of years old.

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   sparksterposted 8 years ago

   This is something I've written about, I am also a believer in panpsychism, which is one of the oldest philosophies known. Its also compatible with Dr Robert Lanza's theory of biocentrism which says that consciousness continues after death. I've been researching consciousness and these kinds of theories for several years now.

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   cheaptrickposted 8 years ago

   It seems we've left out the foundational question of the 'consciousness after death' debate,that is,Does self awareness remain intact after we pass?Lots of earths creatures are conscious but not self aware....so if self awareness doesn't survive death...what does survive wont matter because we wont be aware of it either...I could be wrong...but I'm not.

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      janesixposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I personally don't believe consciousness survives beyond death. At least identity and self-consciousness. The consciousness from the life force should survive in a lesser state in the remains of the body, or passed on to bacteria etc.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         < "I personally don't believe consciousness survives beyond death….">
         and this idea is based on a lack of evidence:
         A lack of evidence based upon a lack of ability to perceive reality without using the five senses.
         As I say over and over like a broken record, one needs to develop the sixth sense of intuition to comprehend the world beyond matter.

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            janesixposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            I have plenty of intuition.

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               Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

               "Plenty" is not an adequate amount.

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                  janesixposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  Sure it is. How do you think I communicate with the universe?

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                     Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                     If the universe is telling you there is no life after death …
                     Never mind …
                     You can listen to whatever universe you want to.

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                        janesixposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                        There is no death at all.

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                           Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                           No, but when we are accustomed to only using the five senses, what happens when we no longer have access to them? (Well, of course, you and I (added: and sincere meditators around the world) will be able to perceive a thing or two after our hearts give out.)

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                              janesixposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                              There are other senses and other experiences.

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                                 Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                 Sounds fun. I have no idea about that.

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                                    janesixposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                    Some birds can sense magnetism,and some fish can sense electricity. We don't know all the possibilities the universe has to offer. You sense things through your intuition, don't you? What exactly are you sensing,and how is it different from other senses?

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                                       Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                       Okay you asked for this.
                                       Once night I lost my keys.
                                       I had been in the park walking my dogs. We had been walking all over the place, running, resting, walking. They could have been anywhere.
                                       I was determined to find them so I walked home and got a flashlight. I planned to used it like a divining rod. I actually asked God to help me find those keys. I tried to sense which way to go by directing my attention to the beam of light from the flashlight on the ground as I walked in utter darkness, all through the park. I felt I was being guided to where they were…" felt," as in open to where they were; like a question I was sure would be answered.
                                       Do you know, my beam of light (within a half an hour, through practicing openness and calmness,) fell right upon them in the middle of a grassy hill.
                                       
                                       Many will doubt my claim of tapping into a "sensing" ability, but I believe it, because now I can find other items.
                                       
                                       Take It or Leave it.

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                                          janesixposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                          I believe you. I know people who can do the same sort of things.

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         sparksterposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         The laws of physics say that energy cannot be created nor destroyed and yet everything, at the subatomic level (including matter and even us) is nothing more than energy.

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            cheaptrickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Actually everything at the most fundamental level consists of relationships between abstract qualities...like brilliance and verve.You cant even say it consists of nothing cause for nothing to exist it must be conceived of which yields a unit of nothingness.Basically...we're all a bunch of blind mice trying to find the cheese and cant even prove we exist.(see Solipsism)so relax cause whoever's dream it is we exist in may wake up at any moment...then we're all screwed...simple as that

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            ...yet we feel and have joy. Perhaps love and joy are prompters of energy and atoms and it all goes down-hill from there.

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   shelliwardposted 8 years ago

   But I went in with the same amount of things I went in with and didn't leave any tags because the dressing room had other clothes left in it from a previous person. Then the earnings they found in my purse they took the pair if silver ones and didn't take the gold ones or the ring. Then I was told I couldn't use my phone and to turn it off and they took it from me and in the room while waiting for the police they questioned me about the other things in my purse that had nothing to do with their store or were stolen. My personal things they asked me why I had this and why I had the stuff in my wallet like a copy if my husband's social security card and I'd and I was being guarded and the exit was not an option.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   That knowledge is this:
   Sri Yukteswar said, "The Eternal Father, God, Swami Param-brahma is the only Real Substance, Sat, and is in all the universe." He goes on to explain, "The Almighty Force, Sakti, or in other words the Eternal Joy, Ananda, which produces the world; and omniscient Feeling, Chit, which makes the world conscious, demonstrate the nature, Prakriti, of God the Father." The Holy Science by Sri Yukteswar

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   janesixposted 8 years ago

   
   
   Even the Universe is conscious.

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