Do you understand that the true new testament church has nothing to do with a pa

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   celafoeposted 9 years ago

   Do you understand that the true new testament church has nothing to do with a pastor or a building?
   
   Most church members think that a "church" building and a "pastor" are what constitutes a church.   While this is true in the "churches of men" it is not true in the real church of Jesus the Christ.    Scripture gives a totally different understanding of the church of Christ.    Do you know what scripture says about the new real testament church?

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   bstiltner77posted 9 years ago

   Celafoe,
   
   Greetings, I hope you are well. Your question intrigues me. In the spirit of peace, let me begin by thanking you for calling attention to what many have identified as a disconnect between Biblical Christianity and "Churchianity". I too think it's important to have an accurate ecclesiology or understanding of the Church. Yet, it's for this very reason that I must disagree with at least part of your assertion, "... true new testament church has nothing to do with a pastor..."
   
   One of the most beautiful and informing passages of all Scripture regarding the Church is found in Ephesians 4:1-16.
   
   Rather than simply explaining what this passage teaches in great detail, let me offer a few questions which I believe might be helpful.
   
   To whom is this passage written? (Unbeliever...certainly not. According to Ephesians 1:1 To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus)
   
   In the opening of chapter 4, what is Paul's primary concern for the saints in Ephesus (Also known as the church of Ephesus) ? Is it not that they would walk or live in a worthy manner?
   
   How does Paul describe this "Worthy Walk? (It would seem that Paul is referring to a life characterized by humility, gentleness, patience, love and a pursuit of unity)
   
   In an effort to bring about this worthy walk in the body, what or whom has God provided? (11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;)
   
   You see celafoe...though you and I agree on the fact that the "Church" is not a building...we would find ourselves in stark disagreement with the assertion that the New Testament Church has nothing to do with a "Pastor". What's more, you would be in opposition to the Scripture which it seems you are attempting to defend. Admittedly,there will always be a degree of disparity between the "perfect" church presented in Scripture and the problematic church that exists in the here and now. Nevertheless, we should not allow this to drive us away from God's design and plan. In fact, there is  no plan B in God's book...only a plan A. According to Scripture, plan A includes Pastor's and Teachers which are given to the body to equip the Saints for the ministry.
   
   Let me gently recommend that you spend some time studying this beautiful passage of Scripture which offers a wonderful picture of the body of Christ.
   
   Blessings

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      celafoeposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      since the answer is too long for the comment section I will answer below.

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   celafoeposted 9 years ago

   Bstiltner77-- Thank you for your reply.    However I must correct your understanding of Ephesians 4.   You have  the given me "the churches of men" teaching of this scripture and not the scriptural meaning.   By your addition of the word "as" which is not part of this verse you are trying to make it say something it does not say.
   Eph 4:11-13    And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
   "to be" is not in there in the original either.
   These men given to the church are men that are called by God to be "servants of ALL".   These are ministries that men do and are NOT titles of positions. 
   There are only two positions in the new testament church and they require  SERVANTHOOD not executive performance.    They are Elder (bishop, overseer and elder are the same person) and deacon.,
   Look at the greatest apostle that ever lived Brother Paul of Tarsus.
   HE NEVER set himself up as over anyone and NEVER even called himself  apostle Paul .   He always said ie"
   Eph 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
   Gal 1:1-2    Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),  and all the brethren who are with me
   Phil 1:1    Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ,
   There is no such position as "pastor " in the church of Christ, it is only found in the "churches of men" and those that fill it are virtually always hirelings.
   The ONLY titles in the new testament church are "brother" and "sister.
   The correct translation of vs 12 is "for the equipping of the sainst for the work of the ministry".   The saints are to do the work of the ministry not some man that assumes a non existant title of "pastor.
   I have several article pertaining to this on here if you have an interest in the truth of scripture vs the words of men.   
   I would also suggest that you get a copy of the interlinear bible .  A direct translation without the added words of translators that want you to believe their way.
   Your last comment is quite offensive to me as I have been studying scripture longer than you have been alive if that  is your picture.   I believe the scriptures not men.   The bible says Christ is the head of man, and He will teach what scripture means if we ask

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      bstiltner77posted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Celafoe, your statement, "These men given to the church are men that are called by God to be "servants of ALL". These are ministries that men do and are NOT titles of positions." is a bit unclear. Are these ministries or men in your assessment?

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      celafoeposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      they are servant men given to the church that have been given special anointing by God to fulfill the MINISTRY  the benefit of the body of Christ.  virtually all of the men today calling themself by ministry name are not of God, but of men.

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   lone77starposted 9 years ago

   Beautiful, Celafoe. You make a most wonderful distinction, here.
   
   Most people look at the physical and the literal. That's how they treat their interpretation of the Bible, too, and they miss everything.
   
   The Bible was written by Kabbalists and in code. It's a map for the path back to God. That wisdom is now available to the general public. Everything that Christ said is given new meaning and a wholeness that transcends mortal words.
   
   http://perceivingreality.com/

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