Should Christians Be Involved In Secular Politics? Why??

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   Ben Bushposted 16 years ago

   For those identifying themselves with Jesus Christ, the lure of Secular politics is constantly before them. In the name of their Savior, many are urged to participate. To not do so is considered sin by many. Is this right? And Why???
   
   What are the principles that should guide Christians when it comes to Secular Politics?

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      sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      On a very serious note. 
      
      From what I had gathered, Christians should be staying away from politics and focusing thier energy on the people around them.  Of course in politics in theory, with as many Christians as there are in the wold, you guys could really make it a better place.  Unfortunately,  they either don't have the means to help those around them and are practically forced to participate, or two they are just faulty christians.
      
      Now from the many post I make regarding Christians, it's not that I dislike you'll, it's more that I could see some serious potential in making the world a better place but reality would have it that, in the spiritual realm Satan rules the roost and in almost everyway, he has got the upper hand on essentially forcing opposition or oppression on everyone.
      
      Sort of like the invisible hand in the economy.  I would think that if all the Christians got together and put aside their differences, and became doers for thier communities, instead of oppressors of thier communites...by oppressors, I mean focusing more on converting people instead of just helping, the outcome could be different. 
      
      Anyways,  I think the pricipal is rather simple when it comes to Christianity.  That you should be on neutral grounds when it comes to politics.

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         Ben Bushposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         Sandra,
         
         Thanks for responding.
         
         Do you think the Bible backs you up? If so, what does it say?

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            sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

            Participating in politics is having a hand in judgment.
            
            While you could say, you are not judging, voting for or againts the death penalty etc... is judgment and you have a hand in that. 
            
            When you become neutral to those things then what happens to those people is not on you.  Certainly you could also say, I voted againts it, but who is to say they didn't deserve it right?  So Jesus said: let the unrightous go on being unrightous and let the rightous go on being rightous. 
            
            I personally couldn't decide either way cause I don't know and I could never say I know what was going on in a persons head to get them to do such horrible things. 
            
            Like this election.  I wont vote because I don't want any of that to fall on me.  I don't view evil and lesser evil as better than then other, similarly Jesus did not consider one sin worse or better than the other.
            
            Part of me wants to vote just so Palin never gets into office, but I can't vote for Obama because I feel like he also has a hidden agenda. 
            
            In hindsight,  I wish I would have voted in the pre-election for Clinton but I was afraid that she would end up being "the prophetess" only come to find Palin.  So..."oppression" in this case is not having a real choice.  It is chosing one evil over the other evil. 
            
            So according to the Bible, judgment is God's territory and I do believe in "Karma".  Or God will give them what is coming to them and I don't need to do anything because while I still chose that people are "good" and are forced or made to believe or do bad things, God will take care of it. 
            
            Yes, I do believe that God is love and God loves everyone regardless and see us the way I see us, which is innocent and no one will burn in some eternal fire pit.  But as far as being in this life and the way that it is, things have to be done, but not by us.
            
            Take Sadom and Gomorah (yes I am sure I spelled it wrong whateva!) No one had to do anything.  When God gets pissed enough he makes earthquakes and stuff.  God doesn't force people to kill since he said don't kill.  And no I don't believe that because a massive disaster happened that it was because they were doing wrong or they deserved it, it just is that way. 
            
            I mean, maybe God was like ok those ones are bad so I am gonna snuff them out, and at the same time he is like well that one is good, let me take that one up so he/she doesn't have to suffer.  I don't really know why  things are the way that they are and I certainly do not buy the story of Adam and Eve as the reason we die. 
            
            I just don't.  It doesn't make sense.    All I know is things are the way that they are. 
            
            
            
            Do you get what I am saying?

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               Jeromeoposted 16 years agoin reply to this

               Satan is the Ruler of this system of things.  The political system is a design of Satan's.  God allows the governmental system to exist just like he allows Satan to exist. Jesus set the standard while on trial in front of Potius Pilat, when he said "MY Kingdom is no part of this world.
               
               Individuals who follow Christ, do not support earthly governments, nor the people who run for office.  They do however, obey all laws set up and enforced by earthly governments, unless they go against God's law.
               
               True followers of Christ do not participate in war.  the do not join the Armed Forces, the Bible speaks for God, and it says "Thou Shalt Not Kill".  So joining the Armed Services and either supporting the efforts of war or participating directly is against God's law.
               
               Electing people into office who declare war is the same as supporting war. Followers of Christ are politically neutral.

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                  Poppa Bluesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                  Actually I believe the more precise translation of the original text is "Thou shalt not murder". A subtle distinction but a distinction none the less.

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                     sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                     what do you think war is?

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                        Poppa Bluesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                        Well that depends. Wars are fought for many reasons. Can there not be a righteous reason for going to war? Remember when the bible was written and then you can put that commandant in it's proper context.

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                           Ben Bushposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                           Regardless of you view on the kill/murder distinction, all amed service personnel are still required to disobey a command of Christ regarding an oath.

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                              sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                              right and by using your democratic hand in politics you are condoning thier actions, which means you are subsequently and indirectly accountable for what happens. 

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                                 Ben Bushposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                 That's right. And interestingly enough, we find in the OT that when God's People take an oath that they have been forbidden to take, God holds them responsible to fulfill the details of that oath, even when it hurts them personally. This is exactly what you see the "Christian" politicians doing today. That's why the Religious right is so frustrated today after 4 decades. The only things they've promoted is someone else's agenda, not the one they supposedly came into office with.

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                                    sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                    Can you restate what you said, your unclear to me. 

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                           sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                           No!  I do not under any circumstances believe war is right. I will never believe it is right. 
                           
                           There is no rightousness attached with war.  Mass murder, no, no, no. 
                           War are fought because one says ya and the other says na. 
                           One says we must go to war to defend ourselves so these people do not kill the ones we love. 
                           On the other hand, you don't take into account that you are going to kill the ones they love too.
                           
                           It is never ever and was never right. 

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                              Poppa Bluesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                              Perhaps so. Being humans we aren't always endowed with the necessary wisdom to make the right decisions. Should America have stayed out of WWII and allowed the Nazi's to continue to kill the Jews? Certainly that was what most of the public and congress wanted to do at the time. Some even argue that Roosevelt broke the law when he went to war. Was he right? And what should we do as Christians or even as humans with regard to the events in Darfur? What of al Qaeda, should we stand by while they murder innocent people? Is this what God wants us to do? Is that what He meant when he commanded "thou shalt not murder?" We as humans can only speculate what God's will is, but as humans, fallible though we may be, we must use our own judgement and wisdom to make these difficult decisions and we can only pray that we are doing God's will and pray for forgiveness if we are not.

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                                 Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                 Well, allow me to divest you of a few delusions.
                                 
                                 America did not enter WWII to stop the Nazis from killing Jews.
                                 
                                 "Thou shalt not kill/murder" seems like a non-negotiable sort of command.
                                 
                                 Although I am sort of coming to the understanding that many christians see the whole forgiveness thing as more "being forgiven" rather than "forgiving"
                                 
                                 Which misses the point as far as I am concerned.

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                                    Ben Bushposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                    Speaking of missing points, Where in Scripture does it say that Christians are not to be involved in politics?

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                                       Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                       I never quote the bible, but just for you:
                                       
                                       Exodus 20:16
                                       
                                       "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour."
                                       
                                       And if you can persuade me that politics is not lying, I will join your cult again.
                                       
                                       

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                                          Ben Bushposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                          Unfortunately, I can't do that. There is Truth in politics, but it's hidden beneath the subterfuge.
                                          
                                          Have you ever considered the word "Secular?"  It's a term politicans and religious types use, but many aren't familiar with its meaning.

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                                             Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                             Ben Bush
                                             Unfortunately, I can't do that. There [b wrote:

                                             is[/b] Truth in politics, but it's hidden beneath the subterfuge.
                                             
                                             Have you ever considered the word "Secular?"  It's a term politicans and religious types use, but many aren't familiar with its meaning.

                                             Of course there is truth in politics - it is all a lie. And that's the truth.
                                             
                                             Of course I am familiar with the term "secular." It is about as useful as the term "sustainable," when people talk about building a new development
                                             
                                             The entire point of the US gov is that is it supposed to be "secular."
                                             
                                             That is why I love it when George Bush talks about god.
                                             
                                             Secular schmecular.

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                                                Poppa Bluesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                                Of course there is truth in politics - it is all a lie. And that's the truth.
                                                
                                                Of course I am familiar with the term "secular." It is about as useful as the term "sustainable," when people talk about building a new development
                                                
                                                The entire point of the US gov is that is it supposed to be "secular."
                                                
                                                That is why I love it when George Bush talks about god.
                                                
                                                Secular schmecular.
                                                
                                                

                                                That's the misunderstanding. The first settlers came to this country for religious freedom. Yes the government isn't supposed to have an official religion, rather all people are to worship as they please. That doesn't mean a government official can't believe in God, and in my mind it doesn't mean one can't pray in school either!

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                                                sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                                That's the misunderstanding. The first settlers came to this country for religious freedom. Yes the government isn't supposed to have an official religion, rather all people are to worship as they please. That doesn't mean a government official can't believe in God, and in my mind it doesn't mean one can't pray in school either!

                                                those things may be so, but ask a hard nosed christain about it and they will tell you something else.

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                                             Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                             
                                             
                                             No - you are the one who is misunderstanding.
                                             
                                             One of the reasons the first settlers came to the USA is to be allowed to practice their version of religion way from the influences of the Church of England.
                                             
                                             Of course a government official can believe in god. Any god. Zeus for example, or the Flying Spaghetti monster.
                                             
                                             I recommend the latter.
                                             
                                             Of course you can pray in school.
                                             
                                             What do you suggest? Any particular type of praying? Any particular God? Animal sacrifices are my favorite.

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                                                sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                                and all this time I thought that they came for the turkey.  lol
                                                
                                                Ooohh animal sacrifice....Ahh but what could be better than your first born baby??? 

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                                                Poppa Bluesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                                What's the difference between practicing a version of religion that's different then that of the Church of England and freedom of religion? Freedom of religion is in the first amendment of the US Constitution. Sorry I don't have any recommendations when it comes to praying. Religion, or worship or praying, or faith, belief, or spirituality or however you want to refer to it is something personal and unique to every individual, so do what you like in that regard.

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                                                   Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                                   No, I was referring to your recommendations as to praying in school. You said that it should be OK to pray in school.
                                                   
                                                   I assumed you meant some sort of organised prayer rather than every one going into their own little space and cutting the heads off chickens or kneeling and facing Mecca or smoking a joint, or whatever form of prayer all these different cults have.
                                                   
                                                   I wasn't aware you could not pray in school if you chose to.
                                                   
                                                   Is that the case?

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                                                      Poppa Bluesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                                      Well, I suppose you can, but the school can't give you time for prayer. When I went to school after the morning announcements they announced a moment of silence to "pray as your parents have taught you". This is no longer allowed! The issue is coming back though because Muslims that must pray 5 times a day need a place to pray, and I think some schools are providing a space for them. Of course Christians and others feel that they are now being discriminated against.

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                                          Ben Bushposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                          Of course there is truth in politics - it is all a lie. And that's the truth.
                                          
                                          Of course I am familiar with the term "secular." It is about as useful as the term "sustainable," when people talk about building a new development
                                          
                                          The entire point of the US gov is that is it supposed to be "secular."
                                          
                                          That is why I love it when George Bush talks about god.
                                          
                                          Secular schmecular.
                                          
                                          

                                          Hey, don't talk about Cousin George that way!
                                          
                                          That's right! Governments of this world are by nature unholy. They are as Jesus said, "of this world system."

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                                    sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                    secular and relgion don't mix.  think abou it?    for secular "ism" (lol) to used in religous movements, is a conumdrum or a misnomer.  It's stupid and doesn't fit.

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                                       Ben Bushposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                       Sandra, are you trying to say that unholy people, people of the world, can't be religious?

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                                          sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                          Are you serious?  I am saying that secular as a term used in religion doesn't fit because by definition secular is void of religion.

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                                             Ben Bushposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                             Sandra,
                                             
                                             Secular is not a term used in relation to religion. It is used in relation to God. That's why Jesus referred to "God" and "Caesar". Caesar is secular. Caesar was definitely religious. In fact, in the secular realm, Caesar was God. Politics is by its very nature religious. I said religious, not Christian.

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                                                sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                                Politics by nature is irreligous.  And I never made a distinction between religion and Christains. 

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                                                sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

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                                 Poppa Bluesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                 Politics is not lying. Yes politicians lie, but then so does everybody else. Besides there are many truths and before you can accuse someone of a lie you would have to know all of the truths. Truth also isn't exactly definitive, it's not always black or white.

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                           Poppa Bluesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                           Well I didn't actually say that, though I can see why one would think that I did. The point I was trying to make is Roosevelt dragged America into the war against the will of the people. The mass killings of Jews was known at the time and perhaps was one of his considerations when he provoked Germany into an attack on our ships.

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                              Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                              Allow me to divest you of a few more delusions:
                              
                              The killing of Jews was carefully kept secret - by both the British and the US governments. Even after the war, the British government tried to keep it covered up and fought to keep the Jews out of Israel.
                              
                              And it was Japan who attacked you - not Germany. Except for a few merchant ships taking supplies that America sold to England.
                              
                              In fact, if I remember correctly, we only just paid that debt off.

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                                 Poppa Bluesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                 The British tried to keep the Jews out of Israel? Ha! The looked the other way as the Zionists immigrated illegally into Israel! Yes I'm well aware of the attack on Pearl Harbor but Roosevelt sent the merchant ships loaded with weapons for the British into those waters in order to provoke attacks by German subs and turn American isolationist sentiment around.

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                     Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                     To be more precise - you don't like it
                     Me, too, though...
                     I already posted this link on these forums, but can't really resist to doing this again - I just love this song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgpRzFUd4io

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                        sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                        No, I meant to say it is not right, but you are right, I don't like it.  I gotta a song too.
                        
                        It's called F**k authority- pennywise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXZVc0h8Gok  lol. 
                        
                        Love you Misha! 
                        
                        you may like "Society" too.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zytrNdgVPDM

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         sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         Hey Jeromeo, good to have you back on hp.  I am going to guess that Ben would like some references to back up what you say because evidentally, nothing can be said to persaud him that a true christain shouldn't partipate in the affairs of  politics. 
         
         

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            Ben Bushposted 16 years agoin reply to this

            Sandra, What have I said that gave you that idea?

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            Jeromeoposted 16 years agoin reply to this

            The account of Jesus taking a stand for God's righteous kingdom can be found in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John
            
            
            The Kingdom—Is It Real to You? ***
            
            12 Jesus did not answer Pilate’s question directly, but replied: Luke 23:13
            
            “My kingdom is no part of the world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”
            
            Notice that in Jesus’ short reply he mentioned the Kingdom three times. This brought Pilate and all those listening back to the theme of the Kingdom government, as Pilate then said: “Well, then, are you a king?” (John 18:36, 37) The scene was firmly set on that dramatic stage, and no one would be able to overlook the reason for Christ’s being on trial. Notice the sequence of events. Jesus responded and said:
            
            “You yourself are saying that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone that is on the side of the truth listens to my voice.”—John 18:37.

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