Is France starting their downward slide again?

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   JSChamsposted 12 years ago

   Here the story:
   
   http://www.theblaze.com/stories/it-begi … -well-off/
   
   Apparently no Socialist will understand that you cannot tax a nation into prosperity. We are having that same problem in the U.S.
   Why do you suppose France thinks this will now work where it failed before?

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      Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      So do you have any evidence for this taxation claim or do you just repeat what talking heads say? would you care to compare tax rates vs real GDP growth for last year around the world? I can tell you straight off that you will find the opposite to be true. The higher the tax the more economic growth.

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         JSChamsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         show me where they have taxed a nation into self-sustaining prosperity.
         For real now.

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            Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Come with me on a magical journey.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co … st_year%29
            
            (don't start on the Wikipedia nonsense you can check the stats yourself with the provided citations it's the only place online where they are all in one place)
            
            Now let's look at the fastest growing economies.

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               Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Now lets look at few examples.
               
               Mongolia 11.5% real GDP growth third fastest growing economy in the world... it's communist/socialist taxes are over 70% on the wealthy.
               
               Next number 8 a country I am familiar with as it's my home country Argentina, growth of 8.8% the current leftist governemnt has been buying private industry and instituting higher taxes on the rich for over a decade now, taxes on idustry and the wealthy are very very high.
               
               Laos in number 11 is straight up communist, taxation is near absolute.
               
               Turkmenistan is socialist at number 4 with very high tax rates and a real GDP growth of 9.9%
               
               I could go on. Now let's go hunting for a comparatively conservative country.............................................
               
               the USA at 159... GDP growth of less than 1.5%

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            startupninjaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark... France, Germany, Japan... should I continue !?

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               JSChamsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Now I said prosperity. Right?

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                  startupninjaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Every single one of these countries has a higher productivity, economic development index, social cohesion... They are far more prosperous than the US on a whole bunch of points of comparison. The US debt rating has been downgraded due to political factors... I mean come on the US of fuc..ng A. Last time true sustainable "progress" (growth) has been present in your economy was 1971

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                     Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Absolutely correct in the sense that all of those have not a fraction of the US debt problem.

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                  Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Most of those countries have a higher quality of life ranking than the US, I believe Japan is two places below the US and Maybe Germany too, the rest are better.

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                  startupninjaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  taxes in the Scandinavian countries go up to 90% of income... yet no one complains, middle class families have summer houses in the Canary Islands, educational state loans @ 1.25%-2.5% annual interest rate which u pay back through taxes (for tertiary education) and the most comprehensive public education on th eplanet... free healthcare which is the best in the world, way ahead of the States which comes around 34th (2010 statistics), and they have some of the biggest companies in the world despite the fact that their joint populations do not even account for 10% of that of the US.

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                     Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     So many facts NOOOOOOOOOOO, let me guess its all lies right?

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      Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Also when did this not work before in France? from what I read the last socialist president saw massive economic growth and was and still is one of the most popular men in the country and was re-elected a bunch of times.

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   Uninvited Writerposted 12 years ago

   Well, austerity is not working...

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      JSChamsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Just like in the US, when you start trying to cut spending the liberal politicians scream, cry, kick their little feet, hold their breath till they turn blue, call you names, until the moderates look at each other and relent. So no one ever sees the end result of spending cuts.
      
      Because those politicians are grafting off the top of the taxes. You are messing with their gravy train.

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   startupninjaposted 12 years ago

   I am sorry JSCharms, I respect your opinion and admire your tenacity, however, I have to point out that you can not even begin to understand the situation in Europe, let alone France.
   I would say that your judgment on these issues is clouded by a skewed representation of the situation provided by the US media which I dare say stopped reporting international news based on facts since before the Vietnam war.
   France will not even dip into a recession under Holande's socialist rule, their unemployment will remain stable and even decrease in the coming 24 months and provided that a banking union is agreed within the EMU (for which the foundations have already been set), Europe will experience a golden age of the middle class... which is already happening in Germany.

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      CMHypnoposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Dream on.  All the rich people will leave and so will any companies that can get out.  Would you bother working if  you were being taxed 75% on part of your of your income?  London is already awash with French people who can't get jobs at home because French industry is so heavily unionised and totally stagnant, so probably even more will be hopping on the Eurostar.
      
      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina … rises.html
      
      And the proposed new tax on holiday homes will crash their rural property market even further as all the ex-pats will put their French farmhouses onto the market.  Many British who have either retired or own a holiday home in France have been trying to get out for the last couple of years because of the unfavourable pound/Euro interest and this is just going to increase the stampede back across the Channel.
      
      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/pers … homes.html
      
      I tend to find that the only people who are keen on the redistribution of wealth are the ones on the receiving end!

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         JSChamsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I have often wondered if they would tax the rich for their revenue and they keep it up what happens when the rich aren't rich anymore?

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         startupninjaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         and I see the austerity measures of the Tories worked like a charm to prevent Britain from entering a recession... if it wasn't for LibDem control the UK would have felt real nice right now I bet.

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   Robephilesposted 12 years ago

   I do not see how the US is having a tax problem, since we have some of the lowest taxes in the history of the country right now.  We have been slashing services (austerity) not raising taxes.

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   maxoxam41posted 12 years ago

   It is time that the richer layers of any society pay their due to the government. Germany is a particular example. It has always been a strong economy in spite of the different crises crossing Europe.
   I do believe that by adopting a counter policy to the ones developed anteriorly, that is to say austerity and also pushing the demand aggregate, France as the Australian image will enter an era of prosperity. it is time for governments (pushed by the people's will) to have banks and all obstructive institutions to a betterment of the economy, to pay for their mistakes (responsibility has a price) as Iceland did. It is time to take our power back!
   As for the U.S., it has been a long time since the rich paid consequential taxes! Since Reagan.

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   startupninjaposted 12 years ago

   Josak, although we ideologically agree on a lot of points, I have to say that the comparison which you often use where u cite economic growth have to be for countries with comparable GDP/capita since it is easier for a country with let's say 5000$ GDP/capita to achieve a growth rate of 5-10-15% than for a country with 46000$ GDP/capita... So countries such as Argentina, Brazil, Turkmenistan, Laos & Mongolia, cannot be used as arguments in a debate such as this.
   As far as quality of life, all of the countries which I stated rank higher than the US

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      startupninjaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      For me personally it is incomprehensible how the most developed market economy of the world can have a higher infant mortality rate than quite a few "third world" countries as your media would call them... or how more is spent on defense than on education and healthcare. These are points which deserve some debate and outcry from right winger especially since they endanger the sustainability and security of the country.

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         Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Could not agree more.

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      Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That is not necessarily true, indeed China the second biggest economy in the world is in at number 6, large economies can grow rapidly when properly managed.
      
      Radical growth can be caused by a small country suddenly starting to properly industrialize but equally larger economies have the infrastructure to develop rapidly, I have watched this list for decades since I became an economist (it didn't use to be quite so easy) and superpowers including the US and the soviet Union as well as South Korea and Japan have hit the top at times.
      
      It's also worth noting that this is just a conversation on if taxation stifles growth and since there are many countries with economies of equally small size the fact that these particular economies remain near the top is significant irrespective of their size.

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         startupninjaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I do not dispute this, I am simply stating that one has to consider the starting point when comparing growth levels... a 1% growth in the US or Germany simply means more in real terms than 1% growth in India or China.

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      Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Also out of interest what quality of life index list are you using I am using the Economist's one from the World Bank and it shows Germany as lower.
      
      http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.pdf
      
      I have the WB report for last year somewhere but my desk is a mess.

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         startupninjaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         these numbers are 2005 at the peek of the derivative and housing market bubbles... Just when the "tap your home equity" trend was at its peak... a lot of free money for the US population.

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            Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Good point. I guess I will have to find that report.

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               Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Holy cow it's at #30 according to this...

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                  startupninjaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I came across this when doing some research... this person did a pretty good job...
                  http://nationranking.files.wordpress.co … 1-qli2.png
                  
                  and here's the methodology to support his/her claims:
                  http://nationranking.files.wordpress.co … dology.pdf

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                     Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Cheers.

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   startupninjaposted 12 years ago

   and JSChasm heres a more credible source for the French tax hikes: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18705834 so you at least get a clear idea of where the forum should go... oh and I fail to see what the "AGAIN" in the title refers to ??

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   startupninjaposted 12 years ago

   JSChasm... I and Josak miss u !! Please talk to us... we feel abandoned

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      Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      His hotline to Rush Limbaugh is experiencing technical difficulties...

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   startupninjaposted 12 years ago

   hmmm... I hope he asks him about the "AGAIN" and "WHERE IT FAILED BEFORE" parts... I'm dying to know...

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    JSChamsposted 12 years ago

    So where are the accolades from an American press some of whom profess to Socialism I contend it didn't work before or it wouldn't be happening now.

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    JSChamsposted 12 years ago

    I knew if I looked I would find some applause and accolades. Sounds like prosperity to me:
    
    
    http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/w … n-2645345/

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