America: love it or leave it?

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   mike102771posted 11 years ago

   
   Whose country is this? Today we see more and more people ending their arguments with the comments “If you don’t like then leave” or “it’s my way or the highway.” This is similar to the “you are either with us or with the terrorist” suggesting that if you don’t support every one of our proposals and bills then you are not a true American. Our society has been shaped by people who spoke out against the status quoi to help redefine what America is. Such men as Martin Luther King Junior took on the majority including the “If you don’t like then leave” crowd and in the end we are becoming a better society for it. Where would we be if the founding fathers decided to listen to the English loyalist and not fight against English rule? Even if the many arguments about us being a Christian based society is true which form of Christianity is it Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic, Protestant, or even Anglican. Some would say many of these are the same but I can say with experience many of these groups don’t get along with each other. What’s your opinion? Is this love it or leave it mentality the last argument of a person with no ground to stand on, a challenge, or a just stance?

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      MissJamieDposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      In my opinion human beings in general are pulling away from each other no matter race, color, creed, or any other difference they can come up with. As you insinuated, people these days are always cutting out others and forcing their beliefs on each other. Like you can't like your neighbor because their uncles, sister's, brother's, cousin's nephew drives a Ford. I mean, it's really getting that ridiculous and humans were formed to gather in large groups, that's how it's been since the beginning of time. That's not to say everyone is meant to get along and be indifferent but nobody's allowed to have an opinion anymore and if they do they're exiled from anyone who thinks anything similar. It's sad, really.

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         mike102771posted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I agree with you that everyone has the right to their opinion. The trouble is that many have come to believe their opinion is right for everyone or in fact the only right opinion. From someone who sues over a nativity display in a public place that has been placed there sense the founding of the town to someone picketing a store who used “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas” the forcing can be seen as coming from both sides (religious and non-religious) with both willing to argue to the end over whey they are right.
         
         As a species we will always find something to divide us. It’s like what happened when Yugoslavia dissolved. The individual groups that fought before for 1000 years went right back to killing each other. Same at it ever was.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      It's a stance and a challenge.
      I use it for those who're trying to change America's foundation.
      It's fine to picket for things that are important, to change laws that need changing, etc.,  but it's not okay to try to turn America into a different society than what it is--------uniquely American;  not Islamic,  not pagan, not non-descript-secular, not Mexico, not Italy, not France, not England, not Africa, not anything but American.    And the defining piece of legislation that makes that clear is our Constitution.    The people who are trying to change our Constitution into something else can, in my view, leave here and go work their activist nonsense in a Country that needs reform.  Not here.    There is a lot to love about America.    Those who are trying to change it at its core do not love it.

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   JaxsonRaineposted 11 years ago

   I'm actually planning on leaving
   
   I love the USA, but it is sad to see it so drastically changed... it's not going to survive as a free country like it was.
   
   I've decided to pursue a different lifestyle that can't be found in the USA(short of having millions), just saving now for the move.
   
   It's ironic, a lot of countries are chasing away their most-successful people by creating hostile environments for the wealthy.

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      Uninvited Writerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Where are you planning to move to?

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         JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         That's personal information that I don't put online. As far as the internet is concerned, I don't really exist, and I plan to keep it that way.

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            No! we need people like you!  The others can leave!
            (I have heard that the United states will have to fight Russia and China on its own soil. I read that an angel appeared to George Washington and told him that we would fight three wars on our own soil. The Revolutionary War, the Civil War and the up coming war against Russia/China, but in the end the US wins! This prediction has kept me going as far as hope and encouragement.  Don't you want to stay and fight to win?
            No, I don't either. it's a horrible thought. I thought for a while that maybe it would be done in cyber space through the internet and property stealing, but China does have a huge military which we could be funding through the interest we pay on what we have borrowed.)

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      mike102771posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      How are we making a hostile environment for the wealthy? The wealthy pay less tax now than during the Reagan Administration with many companies many no tax at all. With the exception of a small minority of actors/comedians with TV shows or a group of dirty tent dwellers most wealthy are viewed as the American Aristocrats of at least celebrities (where all you need is daddy’s money and the willingness to do a sex tape).
      
      Any attempt to truly level the playing field is met with a temper tantrum including the millionaires who during the election came out and said if you vote Obama I will shut down my factories. In other words blackmail (or I will take my ball and go home).
      
      Then we hear how regulations that are in place to prevent the US from looking like some parts of China with pollution so thick you could cut it with a chainsaw are preventing them from doing any business (such as recreating Beijing’s air quality many of the major American cities). Countries like Mexico, China, and India are going to pay a long term price for their short term gain in economics (although they will have the benefit of not caring about their citizens).

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         JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Many companies paying no tax at all? Name one.
         
         Our wealthy pay the highest income tax rates in the world. Our corporations pay the highest income tax rates in the world(ranked 1-5, depending on industry, due to complicated factors such as depreciation being handled differently in different countries). We make up regulations that make no sense at all. Etc etc etc.
         
         A company owner saying that the plans of one party that will raise their costs will force them to cut back operations is just education, not blackmail. Or, do you think you can raise costs on a business with no downsides?
         
         I've never said we don't need any regulations, I wasn't even talking solely about the US(people are leaving France to avoid the tax increases that are coming there).

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            mike102771posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Between 2008 and 2010 General Electric Co, Paccar Inc, PG&E Corp, Computer Sciences Corp, Boeing Co and NiSource Inc as among the 30 that paid no taxes (Reuters, K. Drawbaugh, Nov, 3 2011).
            Even Forbes Magazine called it Blackmail.
            The rate is high until you take into account all the loop holes that can take a man who should be paying at 39.6% (41.9% according to Business Insider) to a little over 14% (paying 1.95 mil on 13.7 mil in income). The following is from Business Insider.
            Countries with higher tax top rates:
            1.    Portugal 48.1%
            2.    Spain  43%
            3.    Italy 44.9%
            4.    Canada 46.4%
            5.    Australia 46.5%
            6.    Germany 47.5%
            7.    France 49.8%
            8.    Finland 55%
            9.    Austria 50%
            10.    Japan 50%
            11.     Denmark 51.6% or all-in rate 62.8%
            12.     Netherlands 52%
            13.     Belgium 53.7%
            14.     Sweden 56.5%
            I mentioned regulations because it is mentioned many times as a reason for the lack of growth in business.

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               JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               GE I know for a fact paid taxes. 16-24% in those years. Want to bank the others did too? Don't trust journalists with interpreting financial documents, they aren't experts.
               
               Boeing paid around 25% each of those years, looking at their 10-k.
               http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/ … oc255574_8
               Page 69
               
               NiSource Inc paid between 31 and 45%.
               http://ir.nisource.com/secfiling.cfm?fi … 5-12-77712
               page 35
               
               Those reports are always wrong. Corporations only don't pay taxes when they lose money. Oh, and GM. GM doesn't pay taxes, because it got a sweetheart deal in its bankruptcy.
               
               You are right about personal income tax rates, I meant to only say corporations.

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                  mike102771posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I will have to bow to your knowledge and agree that reporters have agendas in reporting these stories.

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   SpanStarposted 11 years ago

   Years ago there used to be commonality regarding who and what America is/was. The country has changed so much today to even know what America is?
   
   Those who came here to America in order to freely worship in the new country have been told to remove their religious ideology from all public buildings. Companies that used to say hiring American workers was good for the country now say who needs American workers when we can find cheaper labor overseas.
   
   Having safe streets in America now means everyone having to pack a weapon.
   
   In America we now say to Americans expect to change jobs at least every 5 years if you're lucky enough to find one.
   
   It is okay to celebrate Halloween but keep your Christian beliefs out of the lives of Americans.
   
   What kind of America are we loving or leaving?

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      Uninvited Writerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Last time I looked you can still celebrate Christmas.

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      mike102771posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I worked for a company that had shipped a product overseas (China) only to bring it back here to Ohio because the Chinese could not provide the volume needed to be able to absorb the shipping costs. But, to keep the line open the company hired an all temp workforce for the line making a bare minimum.
      People want to pay less and get more while earning more and working less. Companies want to do more with less expecting workers to do the work that was traditionally done by two people at the pay rate of ¾ a person.
      I would argue that there are plenty of cities that you can walk without any firearm. Some looking more like The Andy Griffith Show rather than Combat.
      With a few exceptions most people don’t care at all how or what you celebrate as long as they don’t have to pay for it or it is not taught to their kids in the schools as the only truth. At Christmas time there are neighborhoods here in North East Ohio that could be used to help land planes by the Christmas lights they setup.

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         SpanStarposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I believe the 1st school teachers in America were nuns.
         
         When we talk about Andy Griffith are rather Mayberry we associate that with those Christian values of wholesomeness.
         
         A place does not have to look like a combat zone in order to be dangerous. (Mister Zimmerman & Trayvon)

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            mike102771posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            If you mean North America then you are probably right, but if you mean the original 13 colonies then with the exception of Maryland (which was founded as a safe haven for Catholics from England) then most likely no. Massachusetts, New York, The Carolinas, and other states where very anti Catholic.
            
            We Christians no not have the monopoly on wholesomeness or values.
            
            When I said Combat I meant the TV show. Perhaps I should have said that city from Murder She Wrote where someone died every week.

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               SpanStarposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Boston Latin School in Boston, Mass. is the oldest public school in America. It was founded April 23, 1635
               
               Believe it or not five of the 56 signers of the U.S. Constitution attended Boston Latin: John Hancock, Samuel Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Robert Treat Paine, and William Hooper.
               
               Read more: Oldest School in America — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/askeds/oldest … z2KeYeYeaO
               
               
               Across God's Frontier
               
               http://relwest.blogspot.com/2013/02/book-of-month.html
               
               PDF-Nuns in American Public Life
               
               The most common ministry was teaching, because education was the way to be successful; it was the way to Americanize. Most public schools were explicitly Protestant and evangelical in their orientation, and Catholics didn’t want to send their kids there, so schools were a very important ministry for these sisters.
               
               It was also very important at the Third Plenary Council of Baltimore in the 1880s when the bishops declared that every parish should have a Catholic school. This was an acknowledgement of what the sisters had already accomplished, that in order to maintain the Catholicity of immigrants, every parish should aim to have a school. It wasn’t the beginning of something, it was the acknowledgement of something that was already embedded in the American Catholic Church.
               
               http://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/cen … erview.pdf

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      Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      You do realize both Halloween and Christmas are pagan holidays stolen from the Celts and the Romans respectively, right?

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         BigBlue54posted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Just to clarify. There were no Celts in North Western Europe. That is something invented in the 19th century. Here in Britain they we called them Britains, obvious but true.
         
         The Winter Solstice goes back to well before the Romans. We know that it was part of the belief in Britain in the Neolithic (4700 BCE to 2300 BCE).
         
         Halloween is also prehistoric and dates back at least to the Iron Age.
         
         Hope that helps.

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            Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I was referring to the holidays from which the modern traditions are derived, but yeah, they are, indeed, as old as dirt.

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               Brenda Durhamposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Whether you meant it in a good way or a bad way I dunno,  but I kinda like that expression "old as dirt".   Because it can be a great indication of wisdom.   Reminds me of the Ancient of Days.   And indeed He was around long before any pagan traditions.

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         SpanStarposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         The only correlation I can find regarding Christmas being a pagan ritual or holiday is written below where they say of Scandinavian pagan holiday merge with Christmas.
         
         
         December;[34] the cognate Old Norse Jól was later the name of a pagan Scandinavian holiday which merged with Christmas around 1000.[30] "Noel" (or "Nowell") entered English in the late 14th century
         
         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

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            Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Search up "Winter Solstice." That'll get you some crazy goat sacrificing.

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               SpanStarposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Zelkiiro
                    No I will not be searching Winter Solstice. I would say if you have something to prove, prove it but I will not be sent off as a messenger for you.

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                  BigBlue54posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Stonehenge has an entrance facing the point on the horizon where the sun rises on the summer solstice. Nearby Durrington Walls has an entrance facing the winter solstice. Durrington date to 2600 BCE. At Durrington they had wooden posts as opposed to the stones at Stonehenge. I suggest that whatever was happening in Scandinavia Durrington predates that.

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   Uninvited Writerposted 11 years ago

   There are greedy selfish people all over the world who care more about their bottom line that their country...

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   Uninvited Writerposted 11 years ago

   Is this turning into a religious thread?

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      Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      It always does.

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      mike102771posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      To be fair I did start this tread with a nod toward how many people today are saying we are a Christian nation if you don’t like then leave. My intention was to start a conversation on the (IMPO) way people will express their opinion as if it is the only correct one to have.

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   innersmiffposted 11 years ago

   Oh yes, I get this argument a lot . . . but amazingly, from the same people who are offended by the idea of secession What? We're just doing what you are saying. Or are you that desperate for others to live by your ideals?

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      mike102771posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      It interesting because this was (in part) the same thinking about succession that led to the civil war. Now me personally I think you should be free to live the lifestyle you want (within the law) just like everyone else.

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         innersmiffposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Secession is a constitutional and moral right regardless of whether it would start a war or not. Your philosophy is one that I agree with, just so long as that 'law' is real Law, and not made up aggressive legislation.

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   lone77starposted 11 years ago

   Mike, the biggest enemy we all have is ego.
   
   A few very rich people, behind the scenes (Rockefellers, Rothschilds and the like), are playing our egos through their Corporate Party media, much as a conductor with his baton plays an orchestra.
   
   "Love it or leave it" is sloppy thinking.
   
   I love America, but despise tyranny that some in our government are perpetrating.
   
   Obama is having military officers who love the Constitution forced out of their commissions. They're being asked a simple question: Would you obey an order from your Commander-in-Chief to fire on American citizens?
   
   Our government has been taking little steps of tyranny so that people don't scream too loud at each one. Step by step, they are eroding the Constitution until there is nothing left.
   
   The unPatriot Act was only one step. NDAA another. HR 347 another. SOPA, PIPA, CISPA and TPP were others, meant to enslave us and to take our power away from us.
   
   We need to be able to forgive the tyrants. But we also need to be strong enough not to react to stimuli. We need to be strong enough to walk away.
   
   Congressmen are being asked to vote on bills they don't even have time to read. This is by design. We're being led to the slaughter and too few are aware of it.
   
   A 200 million person march on Washington would put the fear of the citizen in their hearts, especially if they were intent on a new Continental Congress. Interesting idea.

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      When?  and what would be a serious final straw? and would it really mean anything to them or anyone else...
      yet?

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      mike102771posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Before we become lifelong enemies let me say I agree with you when you say ("Love it or leave it" is sloppy thinking.). Ego is why we have no middle ground anymore because everyone thinks they are right (not realizing I am the only right one).
      
      Military officers who refuse to follow orders should resign. Despite all the Nazis we executed for following orders the reality is that we can’t allow our officers to question their orders. President Obama is doing what any other president would do. When we had a draft I could see the consensus objector because most did not have a choice to join or not, but now our military is voluntary and when you sign up to join you sign up to follow orders. 
      
      Asking congress to vote on bills without reading them is as old as congress it’s self.
      
      Ask states where they are removing people’s rights to collectively bargain about losing rights.
      
      H.R. 347 is to protect people from the current form of protesters who think thy should be able to do whatever they want (the Secret Service requested the changes to this law because "right now it’s not a federal violation to jump the fence and run across the White House lawn, this bill makes it a federal violation”). Just remember the Supreme Court will decide what is constitutional.
      
      SOPA (Stop Online Piracy Act), PIPA (PROTECT IP Act (Preventing Real Online Threats to Economic Creativity and Theft of Intellectual Property Act, or PIPA)), CISPA (Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act), and TPP (Trans Pacific Partnership) are laws that are designed to protect intellectual and corporate material from hackers and thieves. Most of this like the many gun laws that are already covered in older laws that are not enforced. The people behind the fight against these laws are the people look to gain from other peoples work. It’s like fighting anti kiddy porn laws saying it is a violation of the first amendment.
      
      
      

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   Paolocruzposted 11 years ago

   All I can say is that contradictions are healthy as long as it is intended towards development. If all off us will simply conform to whatever is imposed or suggested, healthy conversations that can give us revealing insights would not appear. So I think it's okay to have conflicting ideas and ideologies.

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