Trans Pacific Partnership almost set.

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   rhamsonposted 11 years ago

   With the devastation to American Labor that NAFTA wreaked are we able to weather increased globalization and survive.
   
   http://www.ustr.gov/tpp

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      wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Don't know much about this TPP, but yes the earth is shrinking and if we don't play the game we will absolutely find ourselves in the cold.  We passed the point long ago where we can survive without the rest of the world; just in raw materials alone we cannot provide for ourselves. 
      
      So when the rest of the world decides they want to be on an equal basis with us, we should probably follow along as best we can without wrecking ourselves in the process.

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         rhamsonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I think it is going more the other way. Are we still so far advanced as a society that we can keep losing jobs and lowering our standard of living to compete with the rest of the labor markets that we compete with? We are living at dangerously low incomes that are on average still 75% more than the labor markets in China. To sink any lower to the new labor markets opening in the Pacific rim is even more astounding. The divide is getting so great that up to 30% of the poor in this country have no chance of escaping poverty. What is going to give in order to either raise their standard without affecting any more or stabilizing ours to insulate us from the rest?  If we sink any lower the whole mess will collapse as our consumer base will disappear with our jobs. The cycle is broken here and unless something is done we will lose our way of life.

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            wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I simply do not believe that, for the most part, people cannot escape poverty.  There are those that cannot work, are disabled physically or mentally and they are indeed stuck.  There are those that have spent their future, mostly be producing excessive children to raise and feed.
            
            But other than that, people that want out can get out.  The problem is that it isn't easy and it isn't quick - couple that with a government that has made it very, very plain that there is no need to get out (we'll feed and house you forever) and they just don't have a reason to put out the huge effort anymore.

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               rhamsonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Well I certainly can't reason with you about a belief. The people who are stuck in these situations just cannot comprehend what you are offering as an explanation either. I think generally that people try to do the easiest thing offered them and there is merit for your argument of freeloading but that in itself is a job as well. I know a lot of people in the situation where they feel helpless to change their lot. In most cases I know that they still work their tails off to survive.

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                  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  No you can't.  Particularly when you cannot supply proof of your side, either.  Both simply believe, without having any proof except that some do get out.
                  
                  And that people feel helpless does not mean that they are.  I most definitely count those in the ones that could get out if they want it badly enough.

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                     rhamsonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     I have had enough conversations with you to know that I couldn't prove to you the the sky was blue so I won't even try to go there. Your musings don't bear out the findings.
                     
                     Here is a link that speaks to the problem directly.
                     
                     http://www.urban.org/publications/901356.html

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                        wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        You have a funny idea of what proof is.  Nowhere in your link does it even say that it is impossible for 30% of poor to leave poverty behind them, let alone provide any studies or tests to provide evidence supporting such a claim. 
                        
                        Nor will you find such evidence; it would require taking several thousand able bodied people and stopping all support to them.  Let them either starve or support themselves for a few decades and see how many made it out of poverty.  We won't do that, thus there can be no evidence to support your claim.
                        
                        Which is exactly what I said, while you ramble about the blue sky and your personal beliefs.

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                           rhamsonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           I did not say it was in the link. I gave you the link because it speaks to the problem directly. The 30% I referred to is in the film you refuse to watch. If you want to see something from statistical research watch the film "Inequality for All" by Robert Reich. But then again if you are too lazy I can't help that.

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                              wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              What was the proof the film offered?  How did they test the assertion and what were the results of the test?  Maybe it's worth watching even though far too long?
                              
                              As far as this link goes, I already knew there were poor people out there - the only bone of contention is how many. The biggest problem I have with that is that the bar keeps shifting ever upwards, meaning that more and more people that were once well-off or even rich are now considered poor.  It's a matter of definition, and the definition keeps changing in favor of more taxation and welfare.

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                                 rhamsonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                 I can't explain the whole film but statistics are compiled in the film that specifically outline the findings. Surprising correlations are shown and it is not what you think. Must watch.
                                 
                                 I am sure you do realize there is chronic poverty in this country as with all societies throughout the ages. What is also not new is our cycle of debt and wealth growing in opposite directions. If history repeats itself there is much unrest to follow and the wealthy people I know are very concerned with the resulting behavior of the masses.

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                                    wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                    But has the world ever seen a society with a constantly growing standard of living, obviously so in just a few decades rather than hundreds of years?
                                    
                                    I don't think so, and that could spell a major change in the cycle.  Will people really revolt and become violent just because somebody else has more than they do, even they have far more than their parents ever dreamed of?
                                    
                                    I wonder.

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                                       rhamsonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                       I think it is more apparent in third world or dictatorship led countries. But if you look at Ukraine and Syria and even Turkey where an elitist society is perennially in power the unrest is more pronounced. Egypt with Mubarak is having an awful time extricating itself from the  military regime even though it has chosen a government they overthrew. I have many very wealthy clients and they are very concerned with the distance that has opened up between them and the poor. Some even want some governmental help with a higher wage base for the middle class. This problem is not going away and the longer it is ignored the deeper the divide will become. I agree with you that there is nothing that opens up good old opportunity as good old hard work. But that has become a fleeting dream for most as employment evades them.

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   maxoxam41posted 11 years ago

   What does our government do in our interests? Every move of his flatters the elite. What will become of the commoner, you, me, the majority what do they care?
   Again, what do we oppose to them? Silence. I understand why they keep on putting us on the side.

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