What drives poverty and crime in America?
I think it is due to the erosion of families. Mothers no longer stay home with their young children, and fathers are no where to be seen in a large percentage of families.
The kids don't have a father figure, and I think this leads to joining gangs, dropping out of school, and criminal behavior. Am I wrong? If so, what leads to poverty and crime in America?Poverty itself is the mother load of crime. People are too busy and brainwashed by the system. The Police/ prisons/ justice complex and the US military complex are top two employment employers in the world. The politician are mercenaries of the corperationism. Our families and the natural environment only have the delusion from our Government they lobbing for the 99%.
People are convinced through the use of indisputable scientific evidence. Corperationism is guilty. There's no reason to feed and house them for 15 years while they exhaust every possible means to prolong their and our miserable lives..Authoritarianism is not what i am for, . if we only knew what really go's on behind closed doors. we would imprison the main sources Since we have not hit rock bottom with abuse yet.
I predict we have 10 to 15 years of abuse ahead of us. I'm preparing for it, and will do everything it takes, to gain more happiness and less suffering during itI couldn't see in your response what exactly causes poverty.
In a nutshell, the main two main causes of poverty are:
1. lack of a proper education, (and I mean through secondary, or high school--not referring to college)
2. Loss of income via loss of jobs
All of the secondary problems stem from these two. The whole problem began with "Reaganomics" and his so-called "trickle-down economics," which never worked. The wealth does not 'trickle down,' but spreads out sideways to remain with the wealthiest 1%.
The corporations began shipping jobs overseas for minimum expense and maximum profit, at the expense of hundreds of thousands of well-paying jobs in various areas of manufacturing.
This left mostly 'service' jobs in industries from fast food to hospitality to auto repair. While the latter can pay decent wages, there are many corporate-level service centers, such as quickie oil-change places that do not pay well.
As corporations got greedier and greedier, (meaning their CEOs wanting ever-expanding incomes for themselves), what jobs were left began disappearing to layoffs, attrition, (not hiring to replace employees who quit or retire), and expanding part-time and 'contract' work.
Wages at these jobs have never kept up with the rate of inflation, so while the corporate leaders in their glass towers scoop up ever more profits, they do not distribute that wealth downward to better wages for their employees.
This trend is what led directly to the two-parents-working family just to barely make ends meet, and 'latchkey' children; children who often get into trouble of various kinds, making them future prison prospects.
Meanwhile, corporate lobbyists were pushing, nay bribing, our elected officials for laws that favored themselves and their obscene profit margins at the expense of everyone else. While there are quite a few, the Koch Brothers and the Walton clan (WalMart) are the two main culprits spending the most on campaign contributions for which they expect massive favors in return. The ridiculous "Citizens United" law was carefully fostered by these greedy individuals, rendering corporations to have the same rights as ordinary citizens. (It's far more complicated than that, but the results have been disastrous.)
Privatization of formerly government-run institutions, the worst example of which is the prison system. Since they have been turned over for administration by the CCA (Corrections Corporation of America), it has become imperative (to them) to maximize the number of people in prison so they can make their profits. The USA now has more people incarcerated than China and Russia combined, and with a smaller overall population!
The rich and elite scream and yell about the 'greedy and lazy' poor, claiming they are the problem bleeding the country dry, when it is themselves to blame.
They follow this up with substantial cuts to seniors, assistance for the most impoverished, and worst of all, repeated cuts to schools. This makes for a poor education, and keeping people poorly educated contributes to both poverty and crime, thus fulfilling all the corporations' agendas: more and more profits from fewer and fewer employees, and more people to put in jail.
And that is what drives and causes poverty, not hopelessness and despair. Those are the results and by-products of the poverty, not its cause.
I hope that explains the matter for you. Naturally, it is much more complex and with deeper roots and history than I had space for here. As I said, this is a bare-bones 'nutshell' version.
And--unless WE THE PEOPLE stand up and complain and protest and revolt, instead of shrugging and saying "Oh, well, that's just how things are," it will NEVER change, and only get worse!Thanks for your well thought out response. I'm sure those things have something to do with it, although not all. People themselves are partly to blame, if not mostly.
If they are to blame, it is partly, and not mostly. They are to blame for apathy and failure to do their homework when voting, or in not voting at all.
They are to blame for passivity instead of action. But they are NOT to blame for the initial causes perpetrated by corrupt government and greedy corporations.Voting now will not make much of a difference. I will not vote until I know the people are the boss. People or the 99% are more to blame because we allowed this to happen. I have (SAME TIME) a posted speech below that explains some of this.
The lack of jobs and opportunity is the major cause of poverty and crime in America. The problem is not a secret it is a historical fact that people throughout American history reacted the same way when life seemed hopeless.
I think you have to look at hopelessness and despair to see where the foundation of this kind of phenomena begins. Have you driven through the ghetto lately? Have you been on the back roads of West Virgina or in the poorest of neighborhoods in Alabama? The hopelessness just pours out of these areas. You cannot make someone look up when everything they do and have is down. But as with Americans we want a quick fix or a silver bullet to remedy the situation. Is it really the welfare queens or their environment (upbringing) that dooms them to require their support from the government? And if you punish them will they change? Taking their income from them as a form of punishment drives the children to feel how? Getting over is their form of getting by. How is that a healthy environment for children to be raised in? Crime is quick and easy if you are hopeless and willing to do what it takes to survive. What is the purpose of doing the right things when it leaves you where you started? Prison is something that is part of the job if you choose a life of crime. The odds are good you might just get away with it. Prison is a learning curve in that respect.
As we try to give away to the world what they cannot supply for themselves, we continue to ignore the hopeless among ourselves. We give away our lives, our jobs and our money in a supposed gift of freedom while we still enslave the weakest of our own to poverty and crime.Greedy leaders bring forth poverty.
Poverty begets hunger; hunger begets stealing.
In this society, it's hard to tell the lazy from the trying really hard yet nothing is happening...
Poverty has increased in this land of ours.
I know erbody aint pathological and pathetic. That's probably the only explanation that I feel cannot be accepted.1. Lack of equality of opportunity in our society(not outcomes)
The affluent don't have a leg up just because they are clever and hardworking. The system is skewed for their success from the outset, even though such an individual may be as dumb as a stump.
2. The poor consistently can often be counted on to make poor choices, instant gratification rather than greater effort over the long term for a better outcome. (Pursuit of education and restraint in sexual matters to avoid a family situation when not prepared,)
3. Disintergration of the traditional family, is the difference in being poor temporarily and being structurally poor generation after generation.
4. Welfare and social services are fine as long as those that are eligible are strictly defined. Work should always be a part of the arrangement for ablebodied recipients. I would like to see a lot of that welfare money channeled into day care for working moms. There is less excuse to be sitting idle. The day care services can give others work.
Just a few for now, I will conjure up a few more later....Excellent, very intelligent synopsis of the situation at hand. A+ Poor people do have very poor impulse control. They refuse to plan for the future and are totally unconcerned about future outcome and/or future ramifications of their actions. They exist in the instant gratification mode, a type of oral fixation. The poor possess an immature consciousness, everything must be in the present for the future is no concern to them. They act and then think whereas the more affluent classes think and then act. The poor in America have no one to blame for their impoverishment but their aberrant pathological behavior. The poor aren't innocent by any stretch of the imagination.
Yes, I do try. I am quite tired now and off to bed to watch A Haunting, Season 7 at 11. Right now I am watching a testimony from a holocaust survivor on Youtube. Youtube has so many interesting documentaries. This thread is excellent. In fact, this thread is one of the best thread in the forums. Janesix is awesome for starting this thread.
Sounds good... but childcare is available in Chicago.
pretty penny...
Seems they would save a decent sum by letting moms stay home with their children, giving ones who whine about it, the finger.
Two children on childcare for the month costs way more than one aid check to the fam...
I've seen some monthly childcare checks... puts the monthly aid check to horrible shame... but theyd rather that.CG, why cant that service by subsidized for moms on the program so that this is not a cost making it more difficult for them to work as they should?
People who work on the program often make minimum wage on mostly part-time hours. No one wants full-time poor people. They can't afford enough to cover gas or bus fare to work everyday... much less babysitting costs.
The program often pays fully for childcare because of the fact that part-time minimum wage is not enough to support any household.
The childcare provider makes much more than mom, per month...Then CG, maybe we need to reassess what we are doing. We don't want to bash the poor without giving them any reasonable chance to suceed. The goal should be while promoting self reliance, offering a hand up.
The importance of having these women working is more important than throwong money at them to remain idle. I speak of breaking cycles of dependency and poverty, if mom works that is value to her and just maybe may allow her to serve a role model to her children.
The real racism is creating these programs with the idea of keeping people where they are. As much as we waste on everything, throwing away human potential is the biggest waste of the dollar.
Everybody can say that it is not cost effective to provide the support services to seriously invest on getting people on their feet, but we cannot afford not to.
For this to be successful we have to look beyond the nickels and dimes and see the big picture of promoting. The city should look into providing tax breaks, being willing to subsidize at least some of the wages that would go to a program participant. They always seem to come up with money for everything else, giving Thurston Howell III the key to the city, for example.
It is going to cost us more to just warehouse people over the long term. I ask the municipal and county government to take the long term rather than the expedient path. The program could supplement the part time minimum wage employee, it should be less than having the person unemployed; this situation exacting many costs beyond just money.
We need to encourage work, and do whatever is necessary to make it possible and practical for people on the program to do just that. Too much of our community remain in the permanent grip of a welfare mentality and attitude, that is lethal We have to do whatever we can to break the pattern, if we want to seriously change the direction of life for many people caught in this negative cycle.Why are we so concerned with people working? There aren't many jobs. Many of our men are looked up and down because of something that happened years ago. No one will hire them.
Many other variables are present.
I do know that there are some people who won't. What do we do with them? What do we do with their children? Do we even give a eff?
Jailing them costs more than just HANDING him a 10/hr job. Why don't we do that.
I can see it now:
All who want to work, come down. Minimum wage, full-time, hiring on the spot. Bright and early, tomorrow morning!!! Come one!!! Come all!!!
Your line would start forming at midnight. All the major news-stations would be attracted...C'mon now, there ARE jobs but people refuse to take them. Any job is better than no job at all. I do not care if an unemployed or welfare person takes a dog walking job, a maid's job, a cleaning job, or a clerical job. It's A JOB. The main reason why people do wish/ want to look for a job is pure, unadulterated laziness. Remember, sloth is one of the seven deadly sins. No able bodied person should be unemployed nor on welfare.
Can we call a drug dealer slothful? He usually has more cash than you or I.
H/she refuses to earn his/her money the legitimate way. H/she is taking the easy way out(sloth), preferring to make lucrative amounts of money illegally rather than to do it legally through strategizing, planning, implementation, and smart/hard work.
"strategizing, planning, implementation, and smart/hard work."
That's what drug dealing is, if you add looking over your shoulder constantly.
So why can't they utilize their skills for real work?
That is what I have been stating. Janesix, you are awesome in this thread and in your responses.
It's the only job available to most of them.
I promise... even McDonald's wants to see your diploma first.
But that's where education has failed. They drop these little 7 year olds through the cracks and pass them for coming often but they don't like to do the work to teach them.
The little kid I spoke of earlier was in the 8th grade and could barely read. Who does that???
A system of buck-passers and teachers who prefer that parents (who are also often uneducated) teach at home...That's so untrue. I have the WORST job history, high school drop out, and I can always manage to find a crap job within ten days. Anyone can. I am an expert at getting crap jobs. You just have to show up.
Gee Janesix
Sending most of your life on crap jobs is more suffering than anything I can imagine, except the concept of hell.That happens when you're mentally ill. It's hard to keep a job when you are hallucinating. Yet, I still manage to work much of the time. It's better than being supported by others. Or being on the streets.
"You got a record?"
I can't see who you're posting to, the thread is messed up.
If you're asking me, no I don't."We do not excuse do nothins but we cant lock them outside city gates and stone them either. It's illegal so far.
So what do we do? Watch them starve? Or watch them really become a problem?"
What do you suggest?
EDIT: sorry castle I keep responding to your post, it is unintentional. My thread is messed up.Keep throwing them our "scraps" it's just better that way. We miss out on nothing. Our taxes are at the government's disposal. We probably will not get our pennies back.
They'll just go to the sneakiestsspeaker's girlfriend's apartment.What do you suggest specifically though? Help in paying for childcare? Extended unemployment benefits, etc?
janesix hallucinating,
Did not know, I may have been a bit hard on you as I'm hard on a few people here, tough love I guess.
Everyone has some kind of handicap or another. I'm sure there is a likable job for you out there. Keep the job you have until you find something you think you like better for you. Poverty is the mother load of crime yet still keep looking for something you like and you will do a better job at it and most likely keep it longer too.
gm
In the last 40 years, people are working longer hours for less pay and basic cost of living is 10 times greater. Wail most animal, big tres and fish are dead.
Allowing the rich to continue brainwashing us will only result in them to doing the same in just 20 years in the future.Please provide an example, so we will understand your awareness regarding the issue of brainwashing. (If you are so inclined.)
That long speech did not do it for you.
Most of us are not living our dreams enough and living this American dream myth. People working longer and harder on this treadmill that dose not meet many people's basic needs is not good enough. Being aware of where much of this source of misinformation and, corruption comes from. Is the first step in helping each one of us find our own aim toward our dreams or purpose in lifeWhat is the source of this brainwashing? ourselves..is all I can see. Turn off the TV/radio/computer if you have to… It is up to us. Ultimately our own hand turns On the media outlets
or Off.
Don't stop there, keep going.
Why do mothers no longer stay home with their young children?
Why are fathers nowhere to be seen in a large percentage of families?The greedy wanted two incomes , and have us travel like native in TP's across the county for Jobs and survival.
Because they don't put their kids first.
I don't know what the reason is.In relation to mothers not staying at home with their kids, what do you mean by "they don't put their kids first". I'm trying to think of scenarios. Do you include women who go to work and use child care in that?
To be succinct, poverty is due to having a negative, even defeatist mindset, consciousness, and psychology. It is also the result of adopting a passive attitude, believing that society owes one a better life. It is the consequence of having an instant gratification or oral fixation philosophy, instead of thinking in terms of future results. The poor are noted for being unrestrained and impulsive in terms of their life choices and options. They also adopt negative behaviors in terms of those life choices and options. They act without thinking about the future ramifications of their actions. They only think about present and instinctive pleasures, not future nor constructive pursuits. Oftentimes the poor pursue activities and/or interests that are considered deleterious, harmful, even destructive by the outer society. The main, underlying reason why people are poor is .......laziness in mindset, attitude, consciousness, and psychology. Now, THAT'S the simple answer to the question at hand.
"The main, underlying reason why people are poor is .......laziness in mindset, attitude, consciousness, and psychology. Now, THAT'S the simple answer to the question at hand."
Laziness could be hopeless.
I know I was tired that time 70 job applications got no response. If I didn't have my tools, I would've probably stopped looking and got depressed.
And I had had a degree for years. But an old "charge" that I had been given through no failt or laziness of my own... my field don't really like druggies... but that cop knew that the day he filed knowingly false charges against me.
There are many factors. All unemployed people who are able-bodied are not lazy. Defeated, may be a better term.Are they refusing to take lower paying jobs? A crap job is better than no job at all.
Have you ever had a job that pays for transportation, work attire and hygienic necessities only!!!
Wow!!! That is STRESS with a capital ESSSSSS... Why would you want that for someone? Sweeping floors and cleaning toilets now requires education... that knocks many out the box for menial work. Right???
What qualifications must one have to deliver paint??? Driver's license??? That may be a problem too... Lol!!!My boyfriend does menial labor, and we get along fine.
ALL the jobs I've had have been crap jobs. You just budget your money, that's all.Qua li fi ca tions for procurement of such a lowly position in the work force?
No qualifications, really. Like I said, I have no diploma, and my work history sucks. These days, you don't even need a social security number. Look at all the illegals who work at McDonald's etc.
I've been hired on the spot before, more than once. Without even checking my application. The last time that happened, was at a hotel, for a housekeeping job. These jobs are all over the place. I will be looking for one again this summer.
I can agree with that, as long as you look and keep trying. You are not among the kind of people I talk about.I am aware of the fact that there have been thousands that have not found jobs within this economy over the last few years, but they are looking and trying and that is not lazy. That is why I supported the President's initiative to extend unemployment aid because there were so many such ones out there.
Capitalism which leads to inequality. You may have all been indoctrinated to the idea that capitalism is the best thing since sliced bread and that communism is the devil in disguise but unequal societies always have high murder and crime rates and the more equal a country is the lower the crime rates, fact.
I am not suggesting every society becomes a communist society, just a more equal one.But, its not as fun to live there. I'll take crime and poverty over forced equality any day.
...have you been in a land of forced equality?
I was just talking to a guy from East LA where there are gangs, guns, robberies, drugs, poverty and alcoholism … He had risen out of the cycle and was in the process of getting many tattoos removed. He showed me where bullets had grazed him… scars.
He had learned from this school of misery and turned his life around.
He was free to do so.........gangs, guns, robberies, drugs, poverty and alcoholism..... Ok, you have convinced me, capitalism is best, disregard my other comments.
Repeating;
"He had learned from this school of misery and turned his life around.
He was free to do so."My point is, what caused this misery, an equal or unequal society?
Also you seem to think an equal society means that the people are not free, which is nonsense.A society in which equality is guaranteed by the power of the state cannot be free. One is whole unto one's self with natural limitations. Those limitations prevent equality. If one is equal in his relationship with the government so that no man my own another or have himself valued less than another, than that equality is desired. If one compels all to be equal without exception in all things, then that equality is tyrannical, false and artificial thus requiring an oppressive state.
Misery is a natural human condition and has only limited those who limit themselves, if they are also free. How many former slaves emerged into freedom to do and be great?That you have no idea is very telling.
My advice is to contemplate this very carefully:
< "One is whole unto one's self with natural limitations.
Those limitations prevent equality.
If one is equal in his relationship with the government
so that no man my own another
or have himself valued less than another,
than that equality is desired.
*If one compels all to be equal
without exception
in all things,
then that equality is tyrannical, false and artificial
thus requiring
an oppressive state."> retiefEither they are lacking in specific form of freedom, or they are not. It's not that hard of a question. I just want something specific.
What is meant by "whole unto oneself?"
As opposed to NOT whole unto oneself?
Maybe the question is, what is the advantage of freedom?
...freedom to have power:
one's full amount of power and autonomy.
the whole amount.Strength requires freedom.
Why would this be true?I don't think so . Plenty of people have strength who don't have freedom. They might not have any power though.
Even if inmates are lifting free weights while incarcerated, they have been given the freedom to lift those free weights. Therefore they have muscles and strength to show for it. They don't have much power over their lives in jail, however.
If a dog is kept in a kennel cage and he is never let out, that is going to be one weak AND powerless dog.
What gives us power to control our lives?
Freedom, i.e. Democratic republic
What takes away our power to control our lives?
Tyranny i.e. Socialism
To compel equality is to compel uniformity. Since everyone cannot be uniformly brilliant, talented, beautiful, etc...then the uniformity must be in ways that can be accomplished equally. To make everyone equal is to force everyone to the lowest level, since everyone can attain that level. Everyone cannot attain the highest level of intellect, strength, productivity, creativity, etc.... Compelled equality requires tyranny and degradation.
True, capitalism's foundation is inequity. I believe in capitalism with a strong regulatory foundation. Without an incentive, people will not produce. Between theorectical communism and capitalism is socialism. The Government owns the major means of production in the economy. Capitalism takes full advantage and is a perfect fit for human nature, you work harder, you get more.
Statistics prove that you are right about socialistic societies being less abrasive. But when I think of places like Norway, much like Alaska where a booming petroleum industry lifts all boats and its relatively small population there is enough money floating around that is equivalent to a thick layer of butter on the toast.
When it comes to wealth creation, making more available to more people, capitalism is best.Nothing much wrong with Capitalism, It's unlimited Corperationism is wrong on so many levels.
Isn't capitalism with a strong regulatory foundation socialism? Capitalism is about free markets and deregulation. Regulated capitalism is an oxymoron.
I agree with your point about Norway, the country has great wealth, just like the USA and many oil rich south American countries but it is the unequal distribution of wealth which is the problem.No, SpaceShanty is not necessarily socialism. In America, the foundation of Capitalism is private property and that is alive and well here.There are many aspects of socialism in the American economy. But is the United States like Sweden or Norway? Those societies are fundamentally different from this one. For a matter of fact, even Canada is different in social services and how they are dispensed compared with here. Our problem in the USA is the political right pushing for more laissez faire, advocating the invisible hand of the free-market against what they say are creeping socialistic tendencies. The beast is necessarily but it must be restrained or it will run roughshod over everything else we hold dear, not involving corporate profit margins.
I think this topic deserves greater indepth evaluation. If the Norweigians were not awash in money could the socialist infrastructure be as generous to its citizens?
who criticizes capitalism?
who claims to be a socialist?
who doesn't want to give mothers welfare? You are all over the map, JS!
Welfare is the major contributing force behind fatherless single-mom households!
It is easier to get welfare when there is no husband in the household.
"What no husband... Oh you poor dear!!!! Let US be oh so helpful!"The answer is Democrats. Democrats drive poverty and crime in America.
I will now delineate what drives poverty and crime in America:
(1) possessing a negative, passive, fatalistic mindset
(2) indulging in unthinking, unrestrained, mindless, and detrimental behaviors
(3) having a mindset and psychology of immediate gratification, never planning for and thinking of the future
(4) not valuing education, having an anti-education mentality
(5) glorifying, even deifying socioeconomic struggle and viewing socioeconomic wealth as bad, even evil
(6) stressing a mere job instead of a career, even entrepreneurialism
(7) having and emphasizing an anti-achievement mentality
(8) marrying and having children before one completes his/her education and is established financially in addition to being emotionally and psychologically unprepared to take care of oneself, let one children
(9) having children before one is financially, emotionally, and psychologically prepared to do so
(10) having MORE children than one is able to take care of financially, emotionally, and psychologically i.e. having large/very large families(6 and more children per family); studies show that there IS a HIGHER percentage of poverty among large/very large families than there is in small families
(11) adopting a victimology mindset, believing that one is inconsequential and insignicant
(12) blaming others for failures instead of being accountable and responsible for one's actions
(13) excessive social programs which enable laziness and producing the owe me mentality
(14) not wanting anything more socioeconomically from life, being content with the socioeconomic crumbs
(15) having negative parents, relatives, peers, and environment
(16) pure laziness18. Saying, "I can't!"
19. Blaming parents for each and every self-percieived inability.
20. Blaming society for each and every self-percieived inability.
21. Blaming schools for each and every self-percieived inability.
(...even if its true.
)
We have to overcome neglect, abandonment, inadequate training and/or education, harmful psychological indoctrination, SOMEHOW.
I believe networking with others is the best way.
It starts with admitting you need help and
finding those who can help you.
If you think you can survive by staying in your little spot, hiding under covers by yourself, you are never going to get anywhere.
If you think you can hide on your laptop at the local tea place you are never going to get anywhere.
Well, unless you are networking on line!
Then, you will get somewhere!
But, you will need to get a laptop…
and a car…
and good credit…
and a credit card…
and a loan, and…and a way to pay back the loan…
and… okay, back to under the covers it is…
AUGH!
!Excellent additions Kathryn, excellent indeed.
All of which fall under the value system of Liberal Democrats. I just didn't feel like taking the time to write a list of reasons.
Thanks for the elaboration.(1) possessing a negative, passive, fatalistic mindset
Brought on by a hopelessness that comes from living in poverty
(2) indulging in unthinking, unrestrained, mindless, and detrimental behaviors
Brought on by a lack of role models in the community. ie. once again poverty conditions
(3) having a mindset and psychology of immediate gratification, never planning for and thinking of the future
Brought on again by hopelessness in their condition of poverty
(4) not valuing education, having an anti-education mentality
Brought on by a deplorable educational system
(5) glorifying, even deifying socioeconomic struggle and viewing socioeconomic wealth as bad, even evil
Good one but not even close. They aspire to better off and wealth is something they all aspire too without the means
(6) stressing a mere job instead of a career, even entrepreneurialism
A mere job is useless when the travel, childcare, rent and food bill is not met
(7) having and emphasizing an anti-achievement mentality
This one is just plain dribble. Every living being has dreams and aspirations. Just because it doesn't meet your scrutiny doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
(8) marrying and having children before one completes his/her education and is established financially in addition to being emotionally and psychologically unprepared to take care of oneself, let one children
Once again education and opportunity due to poverty conditions.
(9) having children before one is financially, emotionally, and psychologically prepared to do so
Lacking role models, education and oh yeah that poverty condition that keeps coming back as a theme
(10) having MORE children than one is able to take care of financially, emotionally, and psychologically i.e. having large/very large families(6 and more children per family); studies show that there IS a HIGHER percentage of poverty among large/very large families than there is in small families
You are getting redundant see above. In case you don't want to look, again poverty conditions
(11) adopting a victimology mindset, believing that one is inconsequential and insignicant
Remember the hopeless feelings and again the poverty
(12) blaming others for failures instead of being accountable and responsible for one's actions
All of them?
(13) excessive social programs which enable laziness and producing the owe me mentality
Link please. Excessive social programs? Where? The churches are the only ones doing anything along those lines
(14) not wanting anything more socioeconomically from life, being content with the socioeconomic crumbs
You mix hopelessness with ambition and come up with that?
(15) having negative parents, relatives, peers, and environment
So the children have the parents and not the other way around? Poverty breeds poverty and the result is more poverty. I guess it still has nothing to do with opportunity to strive for better that might help this phenomena
(16) pure laziness
Finally got to this one huh? Laziness is the problem that you promulgate as the problem. I know quite a few poor people living in bad circumstances that have two and sometimes three jobs riding on buses to get to all their jobs which accounts for around a quarter of their day let alone the part time jobs that are only being offered to them. I think these people might differ with you
Your trying to wrap them all up into one big ball of circumstances is like mixing all the leftover paint you have into one can and painting the house expecting some type of consensus as to what the color is to everyone.I hope you realize that you stated at least 9 times that the cause of poverty is poverty, and then accused the other guy of being redundant.
Finally someone got it! Poverty perpetuates and reinvents itself in the absence of a policy and dedication to attack it. Politicians play on it to make promises of eradication the platform for their election. Many have since the days of MLK producing little on the local front. We have a congressman in Baltimore for the last twenty years has been tirelessly working to change the situation,right
. On the national scene we have politicians selling us out with detrimental trade agreements to satisfy their handlers all the while sending hundreds of thousands of jobs overseas. We have congressmen supporting Wall Street by tearing down Dodd/Frank so they can replicate the 2008 meltdown for another tidy bailout by the Federal Reserve. Where do the poor figure in all of this? Nowhere is the answer. So the poor have to live a life of existing on the public tit and what ever else is available be it drug dealing, lying about welfare eligibility or what ever else makes the next day something you can survive. Desperate people are open to desperate things.
The redundancy of my responses only mimicked the redundancy of the statements. They kept referring to the same themes.
Would scrapping all social programs help in forcing people to work and take care of themselves? And stop having so may kids they can't take care of ?
In 1950, a household had 3 times the member of the family in 1/3 the space. People have been brainwashed into the America Dream of consumerism they can't afford kids because they over focus money and cheap stuff. Social programs are needed for a safety net. In Canada a homeless person cost the state $65.000 a year and a person in prison cost $100,000 a year.
Since 95% of the money comes from banks as government loans are not going to be payed back. It all goes into our national debt, and the tax payer pays for the interest. The rich don't worry about money, they can print all they want, they just want to run our lives and we allow them. Until we are too sick and tired of it like 10 to 15 years from now.Yes that would be perfect. And some aint seen the victimology that occurs next. More greed is not the key...
What cause is better than feeding the hungry? To where would we channel the "surplus" following the free up of the scant funds??? My bet is we would have to send those pennies to the booming jail systems... we'll need it...Social programs are needed for those really unable to work physically and mentally. They are also needed for those who temporarily fall on hard socioeconomic times. Otherwise, those who are abled physically and mentally should work; in fact, they should be mandated to work. Also, people should adopt the F.E.P. plan before having children. They should not have children unless financially, emotionally, and psychologically prepared to take care of their children. They should be educated to realize the irresponsibility and fallaciousness of having more children than they can actually afford. I would go as far to declare that birth control and parenting classes should be mandatory.
I contend that the problem with many of the American lower socioeconomic classes is a passive, fatalistic, and/or even a defeatist mindset, consciousness, and/or psychology. They have the expectations that they are powerless to change their dire socioeconomic situation. They feel to realize that their pathological outlook is familial, even socioculturally embedded. They refuse to recognize their part in this pathological scenario. They contend that they are oppressed while it is they doing the oppressing by their negative habits of immediate gratification, victimology, making excuses, and playing the blame game. They have to assess their situation and improve it. I have seen this behavior among extended members of my maternal family who are low income.
They do not want to exert the effort to improve themselves educationally in order to get a better job. They refuse to take the responsibility to get promotions i.e. they feel promotions will entail more responsibility and they want the easy way out. They would rather complain about their dire socioeconomic conditions i.e. they can't afford this, can't afford that but are inversely happy in their malaise. They also want the more affluent members of the family to give them the luxuries they can't afford. The problem is not with the rich but the poor themselves. With the myriad opportunities in America, there is no excuse to be poor if one does not wish to be.Agreed. Well written. It needs to be harder to get on welfare programs in my opinion.
Experience is a good teacher... family members who expect our help cause us some sort of unrest.
We can... but we don't want to...
Why should we have to???
If we look closer, we'd realize that they really didn't have the tools we've had, often from birth. But they are weighing on OUR responsibly put together bank account.
It makes us roll our eyeballs and realize how much better we are...
Girl I know!!!
If we keep helping THEM, we won't have enough for our own, well-deserved trips around the nation. And the Bahamas...
They make me sick too!!!
Then I read the biblical story of the rich man and Lazarus... it's a real bubble-buster...
This would be a revolution and a half.
...or maybe a counter revolution.
This reminds me of those sleepless nights for everyboby.
- ahorsebackposted 9 years ago
0One cannot discount personal responsibility in any societally driven characteristics ! What drives poverty and crime is exactly that which has always driven these things , Social maturity , individual characteristics of criminality , selfish greed , substance abuses, and the potential intelligence or lack there of , of any populace .
The problem in our society today is the ever present need for all too many to be" all inclusive" in the benefits of economic success , but without the ability , intelligence or drive of those who have either earned it or had it handed down to them . Wake up America , there are those who , if handed economic prosperity , would lose it , spend it , give it away .........almost immediately. And ,there are those who, because of self limitations ,will never have it .
Poverty and crime ARE two completely separate issues ! I grew up in the fifties and sixties in a poor family and social environment , yet would never have turned to, or associated , crime as an answer to poverty . The OP. certainly links the two ?There was A LOT of crime in the 50's and 60's. We had a well-defined target then...
Something else is now more important. $$$
But only a little. We've found a way to ensure we stay above them...
If we must dismantle the country to do it...
Good thing we save a lot of funds for war...
And built all those jails, and bought all of those containment capsules to store for when our chickens get back... they will definitely need a place to roost.
America is smart... she knows what she's doing.Stealing from the poor to feed the profit of the rich is not a crime?
OK, Screw the poor,
Now the middle-class has moved rapidly towards the poor, screw the middle class.
Hey that's the mass majority of us, don't we have a say.Are fat jokes unPC?
We might have to stop feeding the federal govt. Its just too fat for its own britches.I think we will keep feeding those fat boys until they burst violently into a rapid combustion, scattering fragments widely, By their excessive internal pressure madness of these fat boys with their big bad toys, will burn down the forest too.
Then we can start freely all over again going it naturally right this time.
I already showed you you were wrong in the other thread. Did you just ignore it?
Where is the evidence for YOU'RE theory> Did you even research the topic? At all?
I don't need to research. I see it all around me.
You have first hand experience of seeing slipups/offs? Somehow, I don't believe that.
Its in the news, its in schools, my neighborhood, my teenage friends whose condoms slipped off (yes, back in the 70's). It could have happened to me…but, it didn't because I had the good sense to abstain.
Where? Prove it. I still don't believe you. Your personal anecdotes count for nothing.
Yes, keep ignoring my direct questions. You have nothing.
People could learn a great deal from us...
The world would be a much better place if people would be more like we are...Well, Kathryn and I had the sense to abstain. Not burden the nation with 33 EXTRA cents.
I keep telling them that numbers don't mean a thing when you know what you know from experience.
Maybe they'll listen to you...
Birth control seldom slip up if one is diligent in practicing it. One must be scrupulous and constant in taking her birth control medication. One can take a pill one day and oops, forget it the next. Birth control requires responsibility and maturity. One cannot be haphazard and negligent regarding practicing birth control.
Some people are just not responsible OR mature... what oh what shall we do with them???
We could strap on our new laced up boots and drive past their house with our middle finger out the window...
But their lazy asses may not even do the work to get to the damn window for their jolting messages...In a discussion of poverty and crime this is the root of it all.
If one wishes to avoid poverty there are a handful of simple rules that anyone, from anywhere, in any living conditions can practice and there by, improve themselves and avoid poverty.
1) Avoid making babies until after you are married
2) finish the highest level of school you can
3) Delay marriage until in your mid-twenties, at the soonest.
4) Work, be on time, be invaluable
5) Pursue more responsibility, training and education when ever the opportunity arises
You can be poor, from a terrible neighborhood and surrounded by idiots - if you do these things you will not end up one of them.
From the lefty Brookings Institute
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/editori … ut-povertyAlso practice family planning and limit family size to 1-4 children so that more monies are allotted per child so they can have as many educational and cultural opportunities as humanely possible in addition to having better quality of food, medical/health care, and schools.
Oh yes, I omitted that one. THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT.
YES!
Cut up your credit cards...
Or are getting points worth it?
I am serious. Some people have the discipline to use credit cards to great advantage.
They go on trips, get stuff...
We would not be in agreement for long if we started discussing the policies that undermine each point offered.
We were given sex. It has a purpose. We have much more money than in the days when it was cool to have 10 kids, but they worked for us... we needed all the "help" we could get...
We have much more now... why do we suffer now??? Something must be different.
I know we built resources to help them get started after we held them under our thumbs for so long, teaching them nothing but how to faithfully be abased... but we wanted to help everyone especially they who had all the tools to help themselves.
They sucked up all our help funds keeping up a lifestyle which came so easy before...
Now their children need help....so we draw up some charts... send in police...
Now we have a GREAT and PROSPEROUS thing to do with them...
Make some laws to protect our own...
Problem solved.... but wait!!!"I would go as far to declare that birth control and parenting classes should be mandatory."
This statement from your excellent post, gmwilliams, is something I agree with.
(The birth control part for those who like to gamble.
)Please. Do what you like... I can handle whatever. Gotta lotta experience there.
Just remember, you also disagree with everything I say as well.
Now the key words regarding poverty in America is responsibility, ownership, and accountability. People have to learn to be accountable, take responsibility, and own their lives instead of refusing to be accountable, being irresponsible, and preferring to be owned, giving their power away to others. Laziness is another component to the issue of poverty in America. Many poor people are happily ensconced in their dire condition; oh yes, they complain about poverty but continue in the pathological behavior that causes them to be poor: (1) having irresponsible sex, (2) marrying and having children too, too young(teens/20w) before becoming sufficiently educated, (3) not placing importance on education and/or career planning, (4) living life at an oral fixation level i.e. adopting the psychology of instant instead of delayed gratification, (5) expecting, even demanding for the more affluent to give them a luxurious lifestyle, and (6) being generally lazy mentally and psychologically. Remember, no one owes anyone a good living. If one wants a good living, h/she has to plan, organized, strategize, and work.......work......WORK to EARN it! That is all I have to say regarding the matter at hand.
Again, I agree completely.
What do you think can be done about it? How do you change the poverty mindset? Would an organized effort through church help do you think?Yes, churches and other outreach community organizations. The trick is getting poor people to go and listen. They are of the mind to do anything constructive but rather continue in their victimology consciousness mindset which is greatly supported by many liberal leaders in their respective communities.
Wow! <"...living life at an oral fixation level i.e. adopting the psychology of instant instead of delayed gratification">,
I wonder if prolonged breast feeding, until at least two and a half or three, would help prevent this mindset!
I am serious!
(...have you ever seen a cat which did not get enough nursing? forever fixated at that level of development! You will see it kneading and kneading, looking and looking…)
Okay I'm done.Do you realize that many people, being uneducated, don't know what to do to become self-everything. Get a job??? Great! Where does she sign up??? She probably has no idea...
Education? Great!!! Where does she sign up??? What courses should she take???
My point is... sometimes (when wealthy parents are not involved) the horse needs to be led to water. And often, if she's never seen water before, she needs instruction on how to lap...They have career counceling in high school, don't they? They did when I was there, but it's been a long time.
I'm sure poor schools have an office somewhere where the "employees" are often on "lunch" but remember... some of them cannot get thru high school.
It's a choice not to finish high school.
And really, so you think teenagers are so dumb they can't figure these things out for themselves? It's not hard to do.
Again, no one owes anyone anything. A person if mentally and physical able has the means to do for self. However, there are people who simply refuse to take responsibility for their lives, wanting others to hand things so they can live well. Many in America are becoming increasingly disenchanting with the victimology of the poor. They are tired of paying hard earned taxes to support those on generational welfare. Something really has to give. Some are seeing the poor as excess; either the poor will have to learn to help themselves by becoming educated and socioeconomically sufficient or there might be a scenario similar to THE PURGE in the future, just saying. The middle class especially are becoming increasingly incensed of having tax dollars supporting those on welfare, many who are able bodied and capable of working.
Choosing to be poor and viewing yourself as a worrhless piece of victim, is an aberrant pathology. Right???????
If I feel that way... what shall be done with me??? "Purge"??? Ok.
So if we start purging, and there will ALWAYS be an underdog, what do we do when we get to your class and still feel crowded???
Don't we help those who cannot do for themselves???
Your hard-earned dollars will be taken from you regardless... do you insist that poor people receive none??? Then they die off... but we're moving up the later on that...
No, I don't see.
All I see is that you think people are unable to do things for themselves. You don't give people enough credit.People can and will do things for themselves when pressed. The reason why so many people refuse to do things for themselves is that they are not hungry enough. When one is hungry enough, h/she WILL do or .......perish. Tough love needs to applied. Either one works or one starves, providing that h/she is able mentally, physically, and psychologically. There is simply no excuse for any able bodied adult not to work. There is also no excuse for any person who wants to succeed, can't. Actually, h/she subconsciously does not want to succeed because if h/she wants to succeed, h/she CAN simple as that. The main reason why many people do not succeed is mental laziness. That is the key component there in addition to a negative, I can't philosophy.
Exactly my man. Time to stop the mollycoddling, the babying, and the pampering. A little toughness goes a.......LONG way. If one is hungry enough, h/she WILL DO.
"There is no excuse for an able-bodied adult NOT to work..."
Except--you fail to take into account such things as:
companies NOT HIRING because they have downsized in order to squeeze all possible work and energy from the few employees they kept, by making them do the work of 2 or 3 people..
companies sending their manufacturing jobs offshore...
companies indulging in everything from race, gender and age discrimination--all illegal--all done anyway, and all impossible to truly prove, for they will offer any excuse but the truth...
companies refusing to hire people for jobs claiming they are "over-qualified" for the position...
and the list goes on...Seems YOU live in America... I don't know about anyone else, but...
Yes, I do live in America, and those are the issues and problems WE encounter. From what other framework would I address the question, given that the OP did not state a particular country regarding the problem of poverty? I can only state what I know from where I live, as I've not lived anywhere else. I don't see why that should be a problem or subject to a snide comment, as that condition is true for every person, regardless of where they live; they can only address what they know from their own experiences.
In the comment from which my response sprang; you seemed pretty accurate from my perspective. You seemed to know the "true" state of American political and workforce tactics.
No offense. I cannot tell if you're offended, but there was definitely no intent to offend you.Thank you for clarifying that. I was not "offended" per se, but the comment did come off as a bit snarky. My apologies for misunderstanding.
You give them too much. Lol...
It's called conditioning.
I'm reading a story about some kids who grew up in one of the worst project developments in America. It's in Chicago.
These very intellectual children from this area went inside to interview the residents to ascertain typical days in this ghetto.
During their production, a small boy of five years old was thrown from the 14th story window of the building by two best friends, ages 10 and 11.
The law changed and these kids were Chcago's first to become inmates of the prison. One of the boys were savable. Came from a good (ghetto) home. The ring-leader was the younger boy neglected by his strung-out mother...
The patrolmen admitted that they had run into these boys often, catching them with heroin and guns but they too neglected to hold these kids accountable "because nothing would be done anyway, they were too young for a sentence. So the cops just looked but did not intervene. That's sad to me...
The five yr old as well as his two murderers could have been saved, had someone cared.
What is a 10 yr old to do when he has NO direction?C, You are right ! If hopelessness is allowed to be bread from poverty , we all lose , if hope allows it's morphing progress , we can win !
Well, a child who isn't being supervised and is neglected by a strung out mother needs to be in foster care for one. Whose taking care of the neglected kids? Why are they left to remain with neglectful parents?
It happens ! Janesix , But it never happened in most of our homes like today . The problem is that it's widespread , it's right next door to you,- I fear .
The two officers admitted that when they heardof the Iincident, they knew EXACTLY who the perps were and said their names at the same time.
This speaks to two things:
Their neglect.
There are not MANY lost causes in the ghetto.
Those little souls would have been better off sleeping in the arms of the angels.
Abstain, abstain abstain if you do not have a man, if you are in the ghetto, if you are feeling hopeless yourself!!!
In other words, if you are in hell, why risk bringing a little sleeping soul from heaven into it?
From Heaven to Hell! That would be the good name of a book. How many are living chapter 9?A poor person has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do all day, saving for essential eating and walking up and down the street... sex is free! And it feels good! So, good luck...
Drugs cost money. Big from what I hear...
What kind of mind do I have if I choose to sell whatever I have for a hit??? Pregnant...
And what should happen to my addicted little soul???I guess I just don't get it. It really should be mind and logic over selfish emotional non-thinking.
Are we women or worms?
Worms I guess.Depends on who you are, how you process, and where you come from.
Meandering thoughts:
One must be in command over one's own self.
When one has hope for the future, one will act accordingly.
So, it really is a matter of foresight.
This isolates the difficulty. Teachers must help toward this end.
Mothers must talk and share their hopes and ambitions of life with their children.
Hope, wish, will… and guide them to act accordingly.
Mothers need help, I guess.The key word here is : OWNERSHIP...............
ownership over self and one's children?
To po' to own sumn', even self. Is there a B??? Bye-bye, Baby? That's three B's... lol
THANK YOU, I couldn't have agreed with you more. Instant gratification is the poor person's drug. You see Kathryn the culture of poverty deifies immediate gratification. The poor act first and think later. The poor are vastly different from you and me. They mindlessly and thoughtless do things. They do not care about the future ramifications of their unthinking, primal acts. If they have relations with taking into consideration the F.E.P. plan(having children only when financially, emotionally, and prepared) and when the child(most likely children) are born into poverty, it is no concern of theirs as poverty, struggle, and want are very normative to them. The art of delaying gratification and acting responsibly is Yakut to them. A poor person acting responsibly is analogous to a humane SS man.
P.S., here's another suggestion. If one is socioeconomically poor/impoverished it is best not to have children at all for h/she has nothing to offer them in terms of normative opportunities. H/she is just condemning his/her child/children to an earthly, abominable hell which is tantamount to child abuse.I'm sure there are plenty of poor people who are responsible. My boyfriend is one. Good credit, has a car and a truck, insurance, we live in a decent house, no kids we can't afford, computer, phone. He goes to work five days a week, hauls five pound buckets of paint all day. Great guy, totally responsible with finances. Saving for our own house one day. Never really broke, although we have little extra. Enough to eat out occasionally and get presents for the nieces/nephews.
- ahorsebackposted 9 years ago0
We have lost track of self mobilization , I can't begin to tell you how poverty grows a young mans wants and drives to "work for it" ! There is little poverty today , more like self exiled economic fiefdom where we want for more all the time while burning up everyone's energy .
One mindset, consciousness, and/or psychology are strong components regarding one's approach to life. Many poor people have a passive, even defeatist mindset, consciousness, and/or psychology. They view life as a harrowing, purgatorial, uphill battle which remains constant and on occasion becoming quite hellish. They feel that life happens to them instead of making life happen. They are also followers, preferring to follow the pathologies of their families, friends, relatives, associates, and/or immediate environment rather than access the negative situation they are in, break away from and chart a more positive course in their lives.
Shame!! Ain't it??? We should just...
But once we're done wagging our finger at them... they don't change...
Gary, Indiana; a town that looks like one big pile of degradation, is vying for poor blacks. You can get a decent enough house for what you pay for a run down apartment in Chicago and often less...
Just 20 miles away... when I drive thru there, I wanna cry... every other building is vacant and at least 60 years old... the streets are often empty and I often make the comment that it looks like a ghost town.
Sometimes, I wonder if that city is "on the list"...
Blacks are moving there a lot... as decrepit as it is...
It's a horrible thought... but somehow, I think many would be relieved if a few of those gas stations blew up simultaneously, taking out an entire city of unneccesary people...
Ms. Kathryn:
Help being more acceptable to those who deserve to live and breathe?Ownership over one's life choices. Making the correct, constructive choice to ensure a better quality of life.
Ownership over one's choices…
I choose. I choose to obtain positive returns rather than negative.And I know that it is a very valuable tool. But some people do not have that one. Cutting them up and incineration is illegal I think. Well, today anyway.
Jesus was poor. Now, he never asked for a thing. But was given to. He was invited in, though he had no place to lay his head.
The poor you will have with you ALWAYS. (yes, I believe it to speak to many on many occasions in many different circumstances)
Blessed are the poor in spirit. To me, that means weighed down. Now who is more weighed down than a poor man?
The Jesus card is supposed to work in cases of poor people. I don't think the bible gives us Lazarus and the poor man for sport... poor people get "crumbs" from your table. Must you deny them, no matter how worthless they are?
They mean a lot to Jesus.
That "little soul" was sent by whom???
How will you feel when he replays, "Well they should just die then..."???
You can earn your way out of poverty. There is no excuse for committing crime of any kind. My father past away a few months before I was born. I was the fifth of six boys my mom had. She provided two step fathers for us since my dad had passed but until then and periodically she had to raise us alone. There was one thing she made sure of and that was she sent us to church. There was NO WAY of getting out of that. I'm glad she did send me and that's why I'm as spiritual today. I'm considered gifted and very successful. It took time to search within myself the blessings and talent that I had from God and now, I use them every day. I own two businesses as well as properties. There is no reason to live in poverty for all of one's life and no reason to commit crime.
Here is a very powerful speech , that a lot of my thinking changed from this speech. To some your ready for this, for others may think he and me are out of minds. It's why I'm waiting for the revolution to start, than call me.
Please share your thoughts.it's long and not all of it.
You cannot begin to imagine in how many ways the world is the opposite of what you have been taught to believe. You see the guy who sells drugs to willing customers so he can feed his family as the scum of the earth, while you see the hypocrite who gives away stolen money in the name of government as a saint.You see the guy who tries to avoid being robbed by the federal thugs as a crook and a tax cheat, but you see as virtuous the politician who gives away the same stolen loot to people that whom it does not belong. You see the cop as a good guy when he drags a man away from his friends and family and throws him in prison for ten years for smoking a leaf. And you see anyone trying to defend himself from such barbaric fascism as the lowest form of life, a 'cop killer'. In reality, most drug dealers are more virtuous than any government social worker. And prostitutes have far less to be ashamed of than political whores because they trade only with what is rightfully theirs, and only with those who want to trade with them.The upstanding church-going law-abiding tax-paying citizen who votes democrat or republican is far more despicable and a bigger threat to humanity than the most promiscuous lazy drug-snorting hippie. Why? Because the hippie is willing to let others be free and the voter is not. The damage done to society by bad habits and loose morality is nothing compared to the damage done to society by the self-righteous violence committed in the name of the State.You imagine yourselves to be charitable and tolerant when you are nothing of the sort. Even the Nazis had table manners and proper etiquette when they weren't killing people. You think you're ''good people'' because you say ''please'' and ''thank you''? You think sitting in that big building on Sunday makes you noble and righteous? The difference between you and a common thief is that the thief has the honesty to commit the crime himself, while you whine for government to do your stealing for you. The difference between you and the street thug is that the thug is open about the violence he commits while you let others forcibly control your neighbors on your behalf. You advocate theft, harassment, assault, and even murder but accept no responsibility for doing so. You old folks want the government to steal from your kids so you can get your monthly check. You parents want all your neighbors to be robbed to pay for your kids' schooling. You all vote for whichever crook promises to steal money from other people to pay for what you want.You demand that those people who engage in behaviors you don't approve of be dragged off and locked up but feel no guilt for the countless lives your whims have destroyed. You even call the government thugs ''representatives'' and yet you never take responsibility for the evil they commit. You proudly support the troops as they kill whomever the liars in D.C. tell them to kill and you feel good about it. You call yourselves Christians or Jews or claim to follow some other religion, but the truth is what you call your religion is empty window dressing. What you truly worship, the god you really bow to, what you really believe in is the State.Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not murder, unless you can do it by way of government then it's just fine isn't it? If you call it taxation and war, it stops being asin, right? After all, it was only your 'God' who said you shouldn't steal and murder, but the State said it was OK. It's pretty obvious which one outranks the other in your minds. Despite all the churches, synagogues, and mosques we see around us, this nation has one god and only one god, and that god is called Government.Jesus taught non-violence and told you to love your neighbor, but the State encourages you to vote for people who will use the violence of government to buttinto every aspect of everyone's life. Which do you believe?To those about to stone a woman who committed adultery, Jesus said ''Let him without sin cast the first stone.'' But the State says it's perfectly fine to lock someone up if they do something you find distasteful such as prostitution. Which do you believe? The Christian god says ''thou shalt not covet'', but coveting is the life-blood of the beast that is the State. You are taught to resent, despise, and hate anyone who has anything you don't have. You clamor for the State to tear other people down, steal their property and give it to you. And you call that 'fairness'. The bible calls it 'coveting' and stealing. You are not Christians, you are not Jews, you are not Muslims, and you certainly aren't Atheists. You all have the same god and its name is Government. You're all members of the most evil, insane, destructive cult in history. If there ever was a devil, the State is it and you worship it with all your heart and soul.Say it, sir. SAY IT. It is high time for the excuses and victimology to stop. Poor people can and DO succeed admirably. PREACH........
We should help poor people!!!
We should give them more. We should cut the corruption fund, it's not assisting the world to become a better place. We should help to keep the mothers at home with their children. Let people who wanna work work.
"Drug sales offense? No problem! We will place you on our management team!!! Or accounting... you like accounting?"
"No diploma? No problem!!! We have on-the-job training! and we offer a GED class after work."
There's reason that procreation is free.
The rich try to take EVERYTHING. Lol...
I cannot imagine squawking about 2.00 coming out of my check to go to people who cannot/will not work; when much more goes to foolishness. And I hear it's not nearly 2.00.
What could be so bothersome about mentally pathological, I mean aberrantly so, people staying out of the workforce???
And if one is happy living solely on government pennies, why can't we just let them be???
They pay more for childcare to take mothers out of the home than they do just letting her rot away in front of the tv. Seems a spiteful move... but who now suffers?
Why are people so petty?
Not all people who seem able-bodied, are in fact able at all.
It takes work ethic to work.
Now where the h does that come from? Hungry? Not always. Work ethic takes a certain amount of maturity too.
Has the world gone mad???
Anyone know what it will take for martial law to be enforced?????????????, - Poor people ought and are quite capable of helping themselves. Why should anyone who works hard and succeed help those who refuse to help themselves and constantly expect hand outs. Too much hand outs makes people lazy and unmotivated. If one does not work and produce, then one should starve. Grown able bodied people should work period. No grown, abled body and moderately intelligent person should be supported, especially with tax dollars. If people refuse to work, then they SHOULD be FORCED to work, again either work or starve.....THEIR choice, not mine.
The welfare culture has created a parasitic society. It is not the wealthy who drains society. In fact, wealth improves and better societies. Corporations and companies create jobs. It is the poor who drain our society socioeconomically. The poor are poor because of their negative life choices no more, no less. Again, people are becoming sick of the poor, seeing them as parasites on and excesses in our society. Poor people are increasingly being viewed as non-contributors in our society for the most part. They are even considered to be parasites and excesses in our post modern 21st century culture.
Many people believe that those who are poor want to be. They even contend that it is egregiously inexcusable to be poor with the vastly myriad educational and socioeconomic opportunities that are ever present in our 21st century society and culture. Based upon the aforementioned, poor people in America are beginning to be seen as surpluses. Now based upon previous historical precedents, we all know what occurs when people are seen to be unnecessary by a particular society?!"It is not the wealthy who drains society. In fact, wealth improves and better societies. Corporations and companies create jobs."
This so wrong I can't believe it. You just want to slip this propaganda by without a response. How has the wealthy become so wealthy above others? Have they made their money without stepping on anybody? Have they earned it or do they just spend their inheritance? Look at wealthy people who exploit labor by busting up unions and buying legislation to effect their agendas. How is this not a drain. Yeah I would love to be wealthy but not on the backs of others or doing nothing better than being born or marrying into wealth. In what way does wealth improve or better societies? Is the greed we now see helpful? And to who?
Corporations and companies create jobs is the biggest lie we have been told for so long that it oozes out where ever there is a lack of common sense. Corporations and companies can only provide a product or service. That is in response to a need. Not the other way around. If car companies hired people to make cars that no one would buy they would go out of business very quickly. The need is what creates jobs not the person who hires in response to that need.
What should be discussed is what is needed to make these people viable in the workplace and that the workplace is hiring in the first place. If you have to go to work and cannot afford to pay the baby sitter what amounts to more than what you can earn how far is that going to go. If you need schooling to get a better job so that you can pay the baby sitter less than what you need to maintain a house hold should be the discussion.What should be discussed is how to teach the poor self-motivation in addition to how to stop being passive and lazy in mindset, attitude, and psychology. They have to learn to do for themselves and to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. NO ONE can do anything for them but THEMSELVES pure and simple.
I don't think you can teach anyone self-motivation. They just have to have the circumstances that forces them to do things for themselves.
GM
Your post 83 minites ago, is that a photo of you.
How do we decide ourselves what able-bodied looks like??? The way we set our system up, certain people are not wanted in the workforce. I know you know that to be true.
One who has visited with poor welfare recipients would know what hopeless looks like. But for some reason, poverty and dirty sticky floors are distasteful and forces the corner of the lip to curl. How do we see it from their perspective if we walk in healthy, whole and with a job that pays nice money?
Did you EVER help any of them to apply for your job and walk them through the hiring process so that they will be able to get off of pub assistance and be as good, if not better than yourself.
Before you answer, look in the mirror...
Are you wearing rolling eyeballs??? As if..."But for some reason, poverty and dirty sticky floors are distasteful and forces the corner of the lip to curl"
I wonder why?
Poor doesn't mean you have to be lazy and dirty, for God's sake! Some people are just lazy, plain and simple.
I am poor, but you can bet my house is SPOTLESS.Fortunately, it wasn't debilitating. Do you think to be average in that category? Nondebilitating depression, I mean.
Probably. I have a mood disorder, but more often than not, depression isn't my main concern. Plus I take a mood stabilizer. I know they don't work for everyone unfortunately. Neither do antidepressants. In fact, they are more often more trouble than they're worth.
CG, it is interesting to follow this thread and try to evaluate the position you seem to be taking here.
Being politically left or right, no one has patience for lazy people.
I can work with mentally or physically handicapped
I can work with those that are temporary down on their luck
I can work with those caught in the structural maze of poverty
But, I can't fix lazy
Work is a necessary part of living here, if you want to consume, you have to produce.
If one is determined to be lazy, not just lazy but arrogantly and agressively so, not to use the tools made available to them, then their fate is sealed.
They insist on ruining their own lives, those of their children and the community around them.
Why should the mothers be allowed to stay at home? There are many families not receiving public assistance where both parents rountinely go to work, not necessarily because they want to but as an economic necessity. How is it fair that 'these mothers' can stay at home when working families do not have that option?
Being lazy is not a mental aberration, I have the medicine at the end my shoe.
People need to improve, not subsist on the resources of others.
Yes, people are upset about this issue, we are not children. We all want to know that generation after generation why we sow the seeds for the next to be like the last. It is time to either fish or cut bait.
Surely, you are not supporting the line of reasoning that you seem to be in this discussion.
Do we want to continue raising children that have no work ethic, because his or her parents are too lazy to work and set the example? If that is true, then we are the untermenschen people all the white supremacists say we are. The squirrels in their nest are more responsible in taking care of their own.
if you choose not to work then you deserve whatever consequences await you.
The times are critical and we are all out of excuses, people have to be more productive now than ever before. Accomodating attitiudes that take us in the opposite direction is not helping.A RESOUNDING amen and a thunderous applause for your intelligently analytical synopsis of the situation at hand, Credence2! Unfortunately, there are some who believe that the wealthy should support the poor and the poor should not have to work if they don't want to. They feel that the poor, if desired, should live on the dole. That philosophy is reminiscent of the communistic philosophy. All should be socioeconomically equal. I am very liberal and I find such a philosophy totally implausible to say the least. I staunchly believe that no one owes anyone anything. If one wants something, h/she should work for it or do without or starve........What you,Credence2, have succinctly elucidated is pure elementary logic at its finest.
Most rich do not give a dam about people or are nature enviorment, only more for themselves and less for us.
Grace and Castlepaloma, I am certainly not letting the 1 percent and their abuses escape notice. In most cases, they are worse than the problem people on public assistance. I am an equal opportunity tormentor. The problems with the poor is too often being just plain dumb, but these plutocrats are greedy with contrived methods of undermining us all from the other direction.
Gee, I hope that the fact I hold these views do not make me a Simon Legree or a Republican??? I have to adhere to the common sense perspective to life.There is no true "communism" as such system is inconsistent with human nature. Like in Orwell's novel "Animal Farm" it is always true that some are more equal than others. Just like the impossibility of a perpetual motion machine, people are not going to continue to work or produce more than others without appropriate compensation. People have differing talents and make different contribution. Where is the incentive for them to perform and acheive above and beyond, if they too must be amalgamated into the gray goo of mediocrity? Superior ability results in superior ambition.
Not at all, I totally concur and I classify myself as a very Liberal Democrat. However, ENOUGH is ENOUGH regarding the situation at hand.
I love that picture, gmwilliams. I need it on my fridge... near my cookie jar…on my PC screen… but, eyes looking forward for my screen…
- with the caption: ENOUGH is ENOUGH!"Step away from the people… uh, I mean refrigerator!"
My position is clear...
Not every able body is able. Why don't we know that even marginally sane people want things out of life? It makes no sense to me that if I want things... I should wait for them to be handed to me. The government only makes richer, the already rich. They are not handing the "waiters" anything that will make them rich. It's mere... real mere.
I think that the Lord has given us the "poor in spirit" for a reason. How we treat them is our good or bad when we must answer...
We will answer.
There is a wide range of disturbance among the poor. We have no idea what their particular issue may be, and it is not our business to find out. We have been charged with the admonishment to love our brother as we love ourselves.
If we don't help, He will...
But not for one second will he hold us blameless for "having" and spitting..."Not every able body is able"
But most are, and those are the ones we are talking about.What I'm saying is, we often have no way of looking at someone to know the capabilities of his body. The mind drives the body... now if that aint working "right" we've got a huge pile of unable... and we cannot see the mind. We just gotta trust that if he needs our help, we may help or don't. But there will be a trial. And if our lazy man's charges are dropped by one who can see the mind, there will be another trial...
I don't get it CG, why are you accomodating this group?
Everybody wants things in life, wanting is the beginning having is something else. I have tried to accomodate those that are not able. The key difference is CANT vs WONT. Even Jesus speaks of choices people havew as to whether there will be blessing or otherwise. Choose now, who you will serve? Life is a series of choices for all of us. I am prepared to show compassion for those that are plunged into circumstances not of their making. God's compassion is extended to such ones.
If you want things, go out and work for them. Why should the "waiter" be handed anything at all? You cannot demand charity from people.
Yes, when it comes to tax payers dollars, it is my business to know the nature of the problem and whether it involves a can't verses a won't....
My affection for people is reflected in my wanting the unfortunate among us to have the dignity of being self sufficient, not having the county's nose in your grocery basket.Exactly,God helps those who HELP THEMSELVES, not God helps those who EXPECT to be rescued for MAKING NO EFFORT. Credence2, I refuse to understand or embrace such a philosophy. People have to adopt a proactive mindset in order to succeed and become socioeconomically viable. They must not just sit and wait, expecting the government to hand them everything on a platter. That is the dependency mode of thinking. Credence2, you are now on your own on this one. I AM DONE!
Right. Was Jesus walking around with his hand out?
No. he was doing His Father's WORK!
...and he is the one who complained, "The harvest is abundant but the laborers are few."
He knew, (and of course it is common sense,) the rewards of WORK.
I hope I will get some money/job… No go.
I wish I could get some money / job... No go.
I WILL get some money/ job! GO!!!
This last affirmation might have to be shouted at oneself while looking in the mirror…daily if need be.
We all must amp it up in effort to survive here on earth, (thanks to Adam and Eve, I might add,) Humans work harder when they feel a sense of urgency.
There are those who are considered the "working poor." (Sometimes temporarily, sometimes not.)
They are striving and doing the best they can.
Their pride of self-sufficiency should make up for what they are not receiving from OTHERS. Of course, we can all help those who are in unfortunate situations… but the govt. should not be the sole PROVIDER in any of these cases.
Thanks for this freedom of speech.Thanks, I would like CG to tell me who are these exceptional people are that should receive charity when their only deficiency is that they don't want to work. I am trying to understand, but have difficulty embracing it. Perhaps an example of a person she knows, an actual case and why she believes this person, (him or her) should not be required to work. I need to understand from where this sense of entitlement derives...
I have seen people with special needs working for McDonalds, The Good Will, Ralph's grocery store...
So have I. They really take pride in their work, too. It gives them a sense of accomplishment.
I take my hat off to such ones, who are determined to make a contribution. But, I would not feel put upon if these same people were among those for whom compassion is warranted Working should not mean that they are in constant pain and discomfort based on whatever their afflictions are. I would not ask that much of them.
I am talking about the lazy ones that have no issues like this but simply prefer to sit around and watch television all day.
It is not entitlement. It's mental processing.
Take my 75 unanswered job applications with a bachelor's. If I processed my situation as bleak and without hope, I'm going to plop into bed and stay...
I understand, but that is not the same as saying I refuse to work. If a job were as available, you would take it, Yes?
People dont turn down jobs they can do.
I had decided, when I was younger, not to take a job because the commute was 4 hours a day and very expensive. I could not AFFORD to work there. The pay was min wage at 30hrs and quotas......... lol..... y'all funny...There are a few people who don't want to do anything. period. Or they could be like people I knew that wanted to start as CEO of Wells Fargo with comparable salary and perks, yet they never finished high school. For the available jobs, no job can ever be good enough. Other folks were not patient enough to do things legitimately never understanding why they should work at Mcdonalds when they could earn many times more moving drugs around, or pursuing the unlikely and impractical, much like planning to pay your electric bill by winning the lotto, This one guy says it was the risk of doing business and he would just as soon go out in a bang than fade in a whimper not having enough to enjoy anything over a longer life. Many make that choice, but if you lose the gamble, there may be no coming back.
There are many with this illusion of grandeur, not taking work that they feel is beneath them. Responsible people take any job that they can do, even if it is not the ideal. I did and have...
We all have to evaluate whether taking a specific job makes cents when all things are considered. You did not say that you did not want to work, just that you could not take that job for logistical reasons. That is a sensible reason rather than being prideful and arrogant. Keep those applications going and put in for other opportunities. it is only when you quit that you truly fail. Most of us have been through the same thing at one time or another. There has to be programs in a city the size of Chicago that are there to help, our tax dollars are supposed to pay for that.A+++++++ response! When I finished college with a major in sociology/history, it was hard to find a commensurate job. I had to take a typist job; I was promoted to supervisor and then had a job as an investigator which I retained until retirement. There are simply those who REFUSE to work period wanting to lead a middle class happen. WELL, IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY and THAT'S THE TRUTH, RUTH!
There ARE very few who refuse period... must we stop to point them out???
Is it jealously? "I have to go to work while he rests!!!" Hmph...
Is he too happy on his crumbs for the masses?
Snarling at a poor man for actually being poor (obviously in the head) is really really uncomfortable for me. I just WAS NOT reared that way.
We can never say whats wrong with YOU during one conversation. too busy trying to keep self correct. I cannot look at you and tell you you are able... especially if you insist you're not... only God may.
I think the biggest "delusion" of grandeur is displayed in a man holding 100 dollars and walking past a bum on the street with an upturned nose.
It's so bad that this guy set up a lil candid camera skit where he sat on the ground looking homeless and held a sign that said? "No one ever goes broke by giving, so let me help you out.
Well, several people paying no attention to the homeless man or his sign tried to give him money, he explained the words on his sign.
"So, let me help YOU out, holding money"
At least 5 people cursed him. One black dude took the man to point out his fancy car exclaiming, "man I can buy you three or four times!!!" Aint that sum awful awful pride???? My heart was broken. Much more than once.
This white guy said,"What is this some kinda fuckn joke. Gtfoh!!!
People are sick.That is kinda like what is being done...
But consequences can be that harsh...
I'll miss you dearly...Got any more heartfelt meaningful pics???
How about an ass shot with a target. That one would really be a good rep... but someone is taking notes...
I know it may not be important now. So... I'll wait for the entire portfolio. Standing solidly if standing solely.
yes, Grace, it was roughly the same for me in the transition from military to civilian life. Focusing on the goal in combination with a little patience yielded paydirt. I never spent a great deal of time when I could not find a job.
CG, my beef is only with the few that refuse. I have no problem with either poor or lazy in of themselves, but when you put the two together, I have a problem. If you have all the things that you need from your own sources, I suppose you can lounge around all you want. I believe that it is not wise to torment the poor as anyone of us could find ourselves in a similar situation through any number of unforseen circumstances. Humility is always good recommended.Humility allows us to see ourselves as we really are. Quite vulnerable to all sorts of unfortunate circumstances.
I think we don't have enough refusals to warrant a dismantling of a system set up to keep people fed and sheltered.
The selfish idea that one has no right to life because he has some sort of deficiency, be it mental or physical, is Luuuudaaaa!!! to me. Lol...
It takes an aberrant pathology to wave your fancy dress as you lift your boots to kick someone off the side of the universe for missing all the responsible lessons taught to you from birth. But I'm just genaea...
To have, and be unwilling to scrape your plate into the "recycle" bin for fear one undeserving of a meal, may stumble across it... darn near evil...
Veterans have good start-up benefits. And jobs hire them often preferentially. Most applications ask... "Is you is, or is you aint?"
Thanks for serving!!!
The Goverment takes more and gives you little. Remenber the second greatest sin in America, cheating on your income tax. Federal tax is uncontituional anyways.
Why do we need self help books like the Bible
?, why not just help yourself.What they are using the money for is unconstitutional.
The state's share of the revenue/responsibility is being usurped through various unconstitutional federal departments.
Very little of the tax dollars come back to the states these days.How is it "unconstitutional" though? What part of the constitution is it violating?
They are bypassing State's Rights. According to the constitution, there are certain duties reserved for the Federal Govt. and certain duties reserved for the states and certain duties reserved for the houses of congress. Over time, this compartmentalization of responsibilities has eroded as the fabric of the ground erodes after fire and flood. Only in this case, the fires have been set and the dams have been opened purposefully.
Ok. I really don't know much about it.
It would seem that taxes themselves wouldn't be unconstitutional though. Not that I really know, but it just seems odd to me that that would be the case.If the states were still collecting and utilizing the revenues which we in our separate states voted for.
I'm ok with most other taxes, good notice, Hill .
Again, we often may not look at someone and tell what their issues are. Jesus can...
He knows the issue, and the lazy will have their reward.
...but so will the scornful, the prideful, the envious, the greedy, and the self-centered.
We just don't know all the ins and outs.
I just got a scornful portrait not long ago, when I told my true and momentarily debilitating story.
But my father is on my side on this one. The scornful may kick rocks...
No one knows my story as well as I and Christ.
It's a story I will tell until... a weapon in my arsenal of true knowledge. A valuable enlightenment. I'm blessed. And I'm grateful.
The man tried to take me out!!! But I'm still standing.The problem is that Jesus has an ability for discernment of the truth that we mere mortals lack. In addition, not everyone subscribes to a Judeo-Christian perspective and we have no right to ask them to. Meanwhile, we have a government and people expect government to be secular, responsible and properly disperse the hard earned labor of so many. How does your story support giving charity to those that choose not to be accountable. I am not putting up a stone wall, but how do you support your position in this matter?
We do not excuse do nothins but we cant lock them outside city gates and stone them either. It's illegal so far.
So what do we do? Watch them starve? Or watch them really become a problem?I am in a work skills program sponsored by the state. Do they have anything similar for regular people (mine is for schizophrenics).? Do you know of anything like that?
Do you know if it's doing any good?
My program seems to be working, but it's hard to tell, as it just got started in the last couple of years.
ok, if you choose to be among those that admantly refuse to work and you are caught stealing, you go to jail. You will be evicted, no more subsidies or food stamps. Your children can be taken since obviously such people are not fit to properly raise them. Are these folks that determined not to work? They can get their 3 hots and a cot behind bars. They already are a problem, but if they don't work to change their circumstances, they can become a statistic. One where I don't have a great deal of sympathy. Only a baby can choose not to work and yet is fed.
I am of the mind that we have too much disdain for the pitiful. There, but for the grace of God go I. I had that lesson already...
I thought them cats were lying when they said the police were rude and gave them something to take to jail...
My heart sank, when it happened to me...
I didn't even mouth off... I was very humble. Spoke my best English, gave all the information they asked for, and complied with EVERY request EVERY time... and STILL!!!
Experience is a good teacher... and some people just need to see for themselves.
Jesus gave us LOTS of information on poor...+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000!!!
Wrath, greed, envy, gluttony, sloth, pride, lust...
Thou hypocrite.Maybe in the final analysis, freedom drives crime and poverty.
Yay for freedom and bring it on!
But, if you want to truly enjoy your freedom, you better find some morals and boundaries.
I like this one: "Those who do not work shall not eat."
and "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."
If the greedy rich, (not all are greedy and some actually contribute to society by supplying… gasp…JOBS!) would follow this latter precept we would all be in good shape, here in the land of free market enterprise.I can't think of any society that is poverty and crime free. At least not one that was able to last very long.
Communist and socialistic societies simply don't work. It's not in human nature. Heirarchy is in human nature. It's just the way we are.Many of the socialistic countries take most top spot for the happiest countries in the world. Heirarchy systems are so cut throat and pirate like.
Time will tell I guess. It's nice to see, but I doubt it will work.
Then the Rich and Goverment will be your true God.
Good luck in joining their club, it's the kind of club they beat us up with daily.
Lazarus and the rich man? I never got any feedback on that one... it's like it was just... passed over...
I am aware of the account, but the poor man was not the poor man because he was lazy....
Note: We need to hold the representatives accountable. Vote them all out when you witness them taking more power/money through Federal Programs than they should.
Here is the bottom line:
When this country becomes 50% on welfare, this country is in seriously big trouble…
Taxes will become higher and higher… The economy will fail, people will become more than frustrated, people will drop out, a negative spiral will wipe US out.
You like high taxes?
CG: Yes, we need to focus on education more. I would even say teachers need to teach with a sense of patriotic duty. No child should be left behind… what happened to that ideal?
The program itself was not good. Leave it to the individual teachers to teach with their hearts, consciences, knowledge and wisdom.
TWISICredence2, I haven't caught up yet. I'm sure you were speaking to me though.
Do you remember the "criminal" who lay dying beside my Jesus??? He is cringing at the thought of anyone not being able to claim his pardon because WE think they're unworthy. My GOD!!! He would deny you first... for you have denied him... "Father forgive them! (These people slashing my skin, and making me bleed, and mocking my very existence) for they know not what they do."
All who cry out to the Lord will be heard. And he will come to their aid. And boah...when he gets there...
Ouch, Sir, that kinda stung... I hope you know better now...Yes, the man next to Jesus acknowledged a man who met the conditions of salvation, placing his faith in Jesus with confidence that despite sins as red as scarlet, he would have that promised fulfilled.
But, I am a mortal man and if I offer my time and resources, which are finite, to someone that flips me the bird and takes advantage of my generosity what am I to believe, just give him or her more?
CG, the government is secular how are they suppose to run things using the reasoning you put forth here?The man next to Jesus accepted what Jesis said, therefore that made him clean in the father's eyes. He seems to be a real push-over for they who trust him...
The man's faith made him acceptable. Not his money, not his poor people policing strategy.
With that said, government is a system of the world today. It does not operate as God does.
The people in office have a choice to do their own individual choosing of what they feel is right. Some of it just happens to be swayed by the spirit of God, or not... we all will answer for our personal decisions, according to our own faith...
Now... if my heart screams, "Well he/she don't DESERVE my help!!!" Guess what...Your solution is appropriate for private charitable entities, churches and the like.
People are not like God, with the ability to see the heart beneath outer appearance. That is why we have governments. And there are thousands of different faiths with just as many answers right here in the USA. Not everyone believes in Jesus, how do I explain this spiritual concept to those with no reference but who still pays taxes and wants accountability from public servants.
Yes, I believe that we will all account for our personal decisions one day, but that day is not today. With all the thievery going around in high places, hyper accountability for everything is the byword, especially when it comes to the poor in this society and public's incorrect perception that they take too much.You want poor people to account for their decisions today though... is that not a double-standard?
I think the world mostly calls it Karma. Try that explanation...
People who don't know Jesus do know that what you send out, comes back...
They don't have to be bothered with the fact that it POSSIBLY won't happen today.Youre mixing me up, I have a problem only with people who insist that they will not work even when presented with a job or training/education over taking public assistance and are otherwise physically and mentally capable. While there may not be many of those outthere, it indicates that my area of complaint and concern is over a very small group. Nobody is waging war against the poor in general.
We cannot have a "problem" with anyone. We do not see what's going on in there. But God can. Only He judges fairly. We got too many reasons to need forgiveness, to not forgive.
Several here are waging war on poor people. Their reasons are similar to yours. But he who follows Christ, say what he said:
All have sinned and come short; judge not, lest ye be judged with the SAME judgment; do unto others as you would have him do unto you.
By the way, I know no one who begs a sandwich, prefer a stern word instead. God chastens His own. He don't need/want us to.No one blames the poor or the working poor.
They blame "the LAZY"…
But, what creates the lazy?
Once again the oh so helpful Federal Government.
Those who are forced to work will become lazy. Those who are enabled to sit around with no need to "stand up" will become lazy.
So, we will ALL soon be there.
We will all be in bed, Cgenaea.
And even so, God will love each and every one of us...
per usual.God hates evil, Ms. Kathryn...
If we give ourselves to selfishness, that's what we look like to him. If we give ourselves to Christ (without dead faith, but works that show who's you are/saying and believing what he said) we're covered, and then that's what we look like...
Jesus broke bread with ALL who came to listen... he took no, "Who's working?" poll.
We must take our hands off of the poor and allow them whatever peace possible... they belong to the Lord who misses nothing.
Sorry, CG, but your line of reasoning goes no where in the current environment. It is kinda dumb for me to be carrying someone on my back when they can walk and think for themselves, but say that they don't want to. In a world where everyone struggles to survive there is not patience for those that want a free ride at their expense. What makes you think that you know the "inside' that eludes all of the rest of us? So what about the children? What about the community. It got nothing to do with forgiveness or not forgiveness. This is not a church. I must respectfully disagree with you as you have no practical solution to the problem except to aggravate by encouraging more sloth making even more less able to take care of themselves. Hate the sin and love the sinner. Jesus and the christian hebrew and greek scriptures make plenty of references in regard to lazy, indolent people. And they are not positive. While Jesus saves and forgives, he never freeloaded. His behavior was exemplary and perfect as an example. Since Jehovah did not have favorable things to say about lazy, his perfect sacrificial advocate was certainly not lazy
. People murder and steal, are we as a society suppose to accomodate those sins also?
While we are forgiven sins, there is still the punishment of physical death for fallen humanity. There are consequences to everything we do, and there is no evading that.
A most revealing and interesting interchange of ideas, all the same.
I don't like 1. People that consistently fail to show self-control in their behavior
2, People who have an entitlement attitude while asking other hard working people to subsidize it.Sorry!
didn't mean to "aggravate" you, not being one who knows/loves Jesus is exempt from understanding his desire. He will answer that differently.
My Jesus had nothing. He traveled and from what I understand, he lodged with the willing, from town to town. So yes, he needed to what we call "depend" on others. He was a carpenter in his youth, so he did do some work. But the real work he did was walk from place to place telling the truth. Some people would call that worthless work but he, I'm certain, begged to differ.
God's people agree with him...
He is in NO way pleased when we do not.
All people are important to God. he doesn't play favorites. He understands the big pic for us all. And since we don't, we have a charge, bear one another's burdens.
I must disclaim that I am a child of God. My words will come from scripture.
If a man does not work (us spreading the gospel) he should not eat; not that we are not worthy...So, the mice should offer their tidbits to the rats?
- realizing rats are worthy?
- realizing they need to bear the rat's burdens since rats are also are part of the Kingdom of Rodents?Rats don't have morals.
People should be willing to give what they can. We are not asked to break the bank.
And the situation with the govt is nuts.
Excuse me Sir, can you help me? No! Get life!
Excuse me ma'am can you help me? Sure I got 30 cents!!!
Sir: dont give him shit my god told me to ensure that i find out if a person is lazy before I help!!! And I see dis lowlife walking up and down the street all DAY doin NOTHING (while I have to go to work!!!)
Stranger: I am an angel of the Lord...
Oh lookie lookie... an angel we didn't recognize. y'all be careful... Sirs (SCRAPS from your table)
The bible touches on that too...
Don't you think that what has more of a influence on kids is the violence and sexuality they are exposed every day on internet and tv?Most parents almost never check their kids computer.
Having a stable family does not necessarily mean a good education.Many single moms raise their kids quite well.+++++, Seen a few fathers watching violence, sex , smoking , drinking , cussing , cursing , while their kids look on with eye's like vacuums . THAT is what's wrong with our society today . How many kids in twisted homes have you seen actually raising their parents ? I look around ands simply shake my head , we are in a decline .
Turn off your TV SET!!!
Say- I WON'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!! and hope you don't get shot.+++++. Why does there seem so many of us that understand what change is needed , Yet , as we look for change we are disappointed ?
Profits, not people, are priorities in America. When we sit down with our profit pads, we forget that lives are attached to our numbers.
The long-term effects are not as important either. Mememe
" How many kids in twisted homes have you seen actually raising their parents ?"
Yikes! How many have you seen, ahorseback???
I know one.
PS I like your new horse.
- ahorsebackposted 9 years ago0
Self - the rhyme , the reason , the curse , the burden . America's in the midst of an epidemic of "self ". Probably never before has the playing field been leveler , the ring at the merry go round brassier , or the possibilities of tomorrow more fragile ! I look around me at the masses and I'm not very impressed . Yet ....it's always the unseen silent masses that will shake the barley . In the end ? Who wins though but the kings and queens ?
Well, if the Fed govt. does all the charity work, we don't really have to tap into our empathy, sympathy, kindness and willingness to help those around us who are elderly, infirmed, disabled or financially struggling through no fault of their own…
Do we, now?
It is not human nature to be lazy!
We were born to be active, creative and ambitious!
The Federal Government does not see it, but this is what is really being robbed:
Self esteem,
Dignity,
Unity,
Joy,
Industriousness
and the all the other gifts of the human spirit when it is FREE to manifest (within common sense boundaries.)
Right?Some are, some aren't. Luckily the majority isn't lazy. But lazy and indolence tends to breed more of the same.
We get free pardon... we're expected to give it.
No! It is NOT human nature to be lazy! Good catch!!! So, now we KNOW that the seemingly lazy to us, is possibly something else altogether.
I can't call you lazy because you look lazy to me. I'll be judged... I fall short somewhere, I just know it!!! Can't take the chance. We may all decide for ourselves though.
Human nature is defiantly to be lazy. I mean think about what sparks our deepest ambitions? To be comfortable and taken care of. We want to work hard, so we can be lazy more comfortably. The goal everyone works towards is to feel comfortable.
But that is not lazy. Everyone wants to be comfortable. Being lazy means not wanting to exert any type of effort on one's part and wanting everyone to take care off him/her when h/she is more than capable of doing it himself/herself.
Warning: Creative Writing:
Once upon a time there was a rat. He yawned. He was tired. He found a corner in an old rundown building. He collected some wrappers from the nearest trash heap and made a nest. He settled into his nest and fell asleep. He woke up and proclaimed, "I am quite comfortable here. I'll just relax."
But, he decided he needed some color in his little nest. He scurried back to the trash heap and found as many red wrappers and red bits of paper he could find. He decorated his nest. "Now I can rest here and just do nothing in my beautiful, comfortable nest," he thought.
Eventually… about ten minutes later, he decided to find some furniture for his nest, so he hopped to another trash heap down the street which contained cartons and small boxes. He lugged back a small box just his size. It even had a lid. He lined the box with the fluff of cigarettes and settled into his new bed. He slept well that night. The next day he said to himself, "Today I am just going to take it easy. Do nothing…"
Shortly, though, his stomach grumbled.. "Oh, I need some food... I guess I'll go find some food...some nice tidbits from that Greek restaurant over there." He brought back enough tidbits to last about a week.
"Now, I can sit around and do nothing in my beautiful, comfortable, well-stocked nest..."
Pretty soon the rat was bored. Utterly bored. Miserably bored. So he went to find some friends…
Moral of the story:
Unlike the sloth who just hangs around in his tree, the rat is forever busy.
Are people more like sloths or rats, would you say?
I mean how long can you hang out doing nothing / just relaxing in comfort?
Me? Twenty minutes at the most.
Oh and to the person who thought that Mom's working and not having a father figure create gang bangers... you're an idiot. People only turn to crime because of poverty. The American dream that "Anyone can make it if you try hard enough!" is complete BS. Imagine growing up in a poverty ridden city, never having enough money for everyday living. Your too young to work at a job, and your parents or parent are struggling to even pay the rent. You could continue to live in this hell, or turn to crime for quick easy money. And although it's illegal, the same system that sets you up for poverty is the one who punish you committing these crimes. To eliminate crime, we need to focus on creating jobs in poverty stricken areas instead of just arresting those who are forced into the position to commit these crimes.
The rat was provided an abundance of things to provide comfort. The sloth, without toil, was provided a tree.
Being of a higher order of species, no cigarette shaving or tree will do.
We were given eachother. "Bear one another's burdens."
You got eggs? I got mayo! I bet Grace has some mustard AND a can of tuna. Together we have salad.Right, so the rat found some friends. They deiced to make a salad. One procured an egg from a duck's nest, one procured a mustard packet from a nearby 7/11, one got a packet of Mayo from McDonald's and one rolled a can of tuna right down the street.
They had to figure out a way to open the can of tuna. They stomped on it, they dropped it from a great height, they asked a crow to open it. Not even the sharp beak of the crow could penetrate the tin can. They became very depressed. They didn't even appreciate the other foods they had in their possession. "We are failures!' they told themselves. "We are good-for-nothings."
"Stealing from mice will be easier than opening this can of Tuna. Its not our fault we can't open it."
So they stole from the mice.
And the mice felt very disgruntled about it.
Now, the rats couldn't figure out why the mice just didn't willingly hand over their goods! "They have plenty!" the rats cried." Why not share with us?"
The fact is, the rats could have been happy with egg salad. No tuna needed.
Then, they could've made friends with the mice who would have been happy to share.
Moral of the story:
A good attitude goes along way… in the kingdom of rats and mice anyway.
...as far as I know.I Resemble that!!!
We live in a rat race, the faster we run on this treadmill designed for us, the faster the money pours out of our pockets. I know, from being middle class for 30 years, we do most of the work and pay most of the taxes. Not playing that game any more and moving back to living my dreams. Call it selfish, I call it seving yourself first in order to serve others healthier.Right, so the first rat left his friends and moved to the country. He found a farm house with a hole in the wall where he could escape the big fat cat.
He became friends with the children of the family who gladly brought him all sorts of yummy treats...
and lived happily ever after.
Stingy mice!!!
Seems they'll be hungry one day...No, mice are very industrious and never ever put up with boredom. They are happy to share, if the rats would just explain nicely what it is they need and ask the mice to please teach them their industrious tricks of procuring tidbits!
The mice are happy to share their tidbits and teach their procuring methods…
as far as I know, in the kingdom of rats and mice.
Well thats exactly what happened. The mice invited the rats to a big picnic and they all shared the most scrumptious tidbits, including Tuna on leftover crackers.
"How did you open a can of Tuna?" the rats asked in amazement!!!
The mice said, "Easy…we rolled it into the kitchen of some humans whilst looking up with big sad eyes…they got out a can opener and opened our can of Tuna.
"Oh!" said the rats…"Could we pull that off too?"
"- don't see why not," replied the mice, "You're just as cute as us!"
After that, the rats could always procure tuna. In fact, they began sharing it with the mice.
and they ALL lived happily ever after.
In the Kingdom of Rodents
as far as I know.Marvelous storytelling. I like your "freestyle"
My story is not so happy yet can be.
My daughter and I live in a earth home that will last for hunreds of years. The ecovillages we are building teaches others how to build their own real home and grow their own live food, for a live body. Fat Cats are not welcome, and they don't like the taste of real food eating mice. They can kill more mice and rats with synthetic food and products along with all other speices of animals faster than any thing we can imagine.
Fat Cats steal to make other fat Cats fatter. Besides Fats Cats perfer a diet of toxic mice and rats they have trained since birth. For example, when you see those Mc'donalde's neon breasts on the side of the highway, you cry out waaahhh wahhhh and pull your car over to feed. Or Walmart product that destroy wholesome small business so they can own both ends, here and overseas enslaved rats and mice
Like the old movie Time Machine They dwell underground troglodyte civilization, maintaining ancient time machines access to the surface world's countryside of future. Morlocks are humanoid creatures, said to have descended from humans, (maybe from evolution/creationism). The evolved into a completely different species, as "ape-like", large eyes and grey fur covering, a result of living underground and extremely sensitive to light.The Morlocks' main source of food are humans that lives above ground. These humans are incredible fear of the dark and are terrified of being underground.the future. The mutated monsters (the 2nd move of Morlocks) use the time machine to come back to the present and go on a murderous rampage. (Sounds like revelations payback)
Fictitious movies resembles fictitous leaders today, not genuinely felt.The system is greedy. Mass consumption, poverty and war...
We've. Got other things to address. Ray-Ray 'nem getting three sandwiches a month and Tracy suckn on bonbons in her housecoat all day, at home with her children, thanks to her $3 or 400 a month should NOT be one of them.
The workforce generally doesn't want them anyhow. Taxes pay for hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to one (or thousands of ones) who once was, some time ago...
Can't we get 400 dollars for Tracy and her kids???
The life you have seems quite interesting. Is this off the grid housing?Yes , we are building a tiny home landbase community within a substainable Eco village. We have about 30 light minded people here, who are mostly self employed and up to 50-60 in the summer.
Our tiny homes are affordable to 90% of the public where most people can not afford anything . Calling them- a Tiny Castle without the Hassle carring their own natural energy and water. Saskatchewan has alot of sun for solar power and has the lowest unemployment in Canada too, just in case one needs a job. Half of people are single owner of houses today, the hard part is unbrainwashing people that they need oversize me homes.Sounds nice. No bills? No rent? Plumbing?
I thought off the grid was like far out. Not a neighbor for miles. What's this I hear about jobs? Where are they off the grid? Sq ft of the hassleless castle?
The interview is complete. Lol. Never spoke to an off-the-gridder before. Maybe I heard you mention it before. I guess it has been years for you and I too.
One of the main things that drives poverty and crime in America is.........large families. Large families are ten times more likely to be socioeconomically poor, impoverished, or worse than small families. Large families are more likely to go without even the basic rudiments such as food, clothing, and shelter. Large families are the families who have to receive outside assistance either through churches, relatives, and the government to keep the socioeconomically afloat. Large families suffer from poor nutrition, little or no medical care, inferior or cast off clothing, and/or other substandard living conditions. Studies further authenticate that children from large families tend to gravitate towards gangs and other delinquent activities and girls from large families are likely to be teenage mothers because they did not receive parental love nor attention.
Children from large families will likely follow their familial pattern and be poor/impoverished adults themselves. It is highly unlikely that they will pursue education beyond the secondary school level if that. As soon as they are able, they are made to work to supplement family income so in many cases, they do not complete secondary education let alone pursue tertiary education. As a result, they are relegated to low wage jobs and thus the cycle of poverty continues. In many cases, poor people have large families in order to receive more government aid. The typical large family receives outside assistance in one form or another.- ahorsebackposted 9 years ago0
The more I read , The more I realize that our problems here ! Are all about the ME of the situation !
Blacks hate the "other " backs , white's hate em' All , Hispanics hate normalcy . The Indians are above us all . The intelectuals hate the dummies [ like me ] , the socialites hate the hicks .
It sure sounds like it's all about "Me " these days ! No, its not about you.. its about ME!
As it should be...
The problem is when we don't include others into our care/concern for our own beings. Caring about others comes with caring about ourselves…
So maybe, just maybe… few are tending to the reality of their true selves which have empathy, compassion, forgiveness, understanding, patience, tolerance and ACCEPTANCE.
Those who are critical of themselves often fear criticism from others and in turn, end up criticizing others! So, we need to accept ourselves as we are, change as desired, and live and let live.
TWISIWe should tend to our true selves, rather pretend what our haughty arrogant ego selves want us to be.
Let the wheat and tare grow together. They will be separated when the time comes.
There is a science to staying in touch with our true selves. By tending to our true selves, the flowers of our true loving natures bloom...
and the weeds of our false arrogant selves wither.- beware of those who want to pluck out your flowers… and put them in vases.
Repeating:
Welfare is the major contributing force behind fatherless single-mom households!
It is easier to get welfare when there is no husband in the household.
"What no husband... Oh you poor dear!!!! Let US be oh so helpful!"I am beginning to see that, the more research I do.
Oh, but Kathryn, that is one of the prerequisites. Welfare in my childhood days demanded that no father be present. Daddies started hiding when the people came to check. Why?????
Why can't your family receive help if you have a father? I guess back then, jobs were pretty much plentiful, and they figured that each man is responsible pass or fail...
However, we have a slew of men on foodstamps. They do allow convicts to eat...
If the gov't expects you to pay for others, you are not in control over your own life. The gov't is. The more you are expected to pay in taxes, the less power/control you have over your own destiny, bank account, life.
Its as simple as that.Q. What drives or contributes to poverty?
1. Governmental policies which do not stimulate the economy but instead remove potential for progress and job creation:
a. regulations
b. fees
c. licenses
d. shutting down natural resource production
2. Diminishing potential for Individual success and motivation
a. giving jobs to illegal aliens rather than to citizens
b. revenue collecting/ticketing by police
c. continually raising taxes
d. federal control rather than state control over public school policies
3. Governmental mandates which destroy equal opportunity by enforcing equality of outcome:
a. Obama Care mandates and fines
b. irresponsible Welfare distribution
c. promoting fatherless homes
d. rewarding multiple births in welfare supported homes
d. indiscriminate EBT card distribution
Q. What drives crime?
1. desperation and hopelessness
2. lack of education
3. fatherless homes
4. diminishing sense of morals and values
5. gang mentality
6. drugs
7. substance/alcohol abuseThe citizens will create a positive spiral because they are motivated to survive. If the Gov't steps in too obtrusively, it can interrupt that positive spiral.
If you notice, crime and poverty are the effects of a negative spiral.
We can only spiral in one direction: positive or negative.
The Federal Gov't needs to let the People spiral positively and needs to understand and be aware of what fosters positive spiraling. The Gov't should not stand in the way of State power or Individual Citizen power. Instead, it must grant them Freedom.
Simple as that.
TWISI- ahorsebackposted 9 years ago0
I am a realist :
It is well documented that ANY society of people is not only Naturally motivated to financially , socially and intellectually succeed BUT to have it's own percentage of crime , chaos , poverty , an laziness , all unmotivated access to anything but to live off these negative aspects of the system !
Just as naturally , there will ALWAYS be crime ,there will always be shiftless gangs there will always be social unrest , there will always be welfare , unemployment , and a large percentage of our own people that will remain unmotivated to succeed .
Stop looking for Camelot and stop expecting it on America's street's !True.
As far as the disadvantaged, they have always been helped along by capable and compassionate loved ones, But, today, we expect everyone to survive, no matter what.
It is no longer a situation of survival for only the most fit.
Today, we
1. want to make sure everyone survives.
2. have delegated this job to the Federal government.
Is this because we
1. are a more compassionate majority today?
2. believe that our leaders at the federal level are more enlightened than in the past?
3. believe that these leaders can truly help us pull off the great feat of enabling the minority to survive without harming the majority?
The next election will tell.No, the only ones who should survive are the ones the government coddles, hand holds, force feeds and keeps as pets. Anyone who takes care of themselves and works to provide for their own needs should die, one cut at a time.
This recent outbreak of anguish and call for social remediation is because it just happens? The lazy just want to be lazy and the poor just want hand outs and the thugs just want to be criminals? There is nothing we have done in the way this country has made these conditions become a reality? Everyone from the President on down to the lowliest pee on working in a sewer is affected by the decisions this country makes whether it be an election, a vote or to ignore it entirely. We bitch about the policies of the government and the ones who decide on them while the process has been in decay for decades. Everyone is trying to stick the goose who lays the golden eggs but when it comes to feeding the poor creature we become really stupid. How long can we export our jobs, no, even careers and not think it will have a awful affect on our incomes and future? How long can we allow the very rich to buy legislation that only profits them over the good of the people? We wonder why great civilizations have fallen while we replicate the very same conditions and societal imbalances to profit a very few. We are talking 1% controlling 42% of the countries wealth. How did this happen? Through just good old hard work? This inequality is a direct result of the loss of income the middle class has been making up for years of tax breaks to the very wealthy. That combined with the globalization of the work forces and economies with third world labor markets is beginning to be a realization to lethargic reluctant participants in the political failure that is our system. It is probably to late as our currency and sovereignty may have been sold out too seriously to recover.
Lol!!! Good question janesix.
My guess, from the last post alone, says, "No, not if MY 39cents is involved."
I think all people should survive. Maybe it's just the way I was raised... lol
Nobody knows the plight of another man. We have no business pointing fingers toward the "undeserveds" who may say that I do not deserve what they do deserve??? I know we disagree here: But God controls and sees all. He don't like pride. "Lord, I'm thankful that I am not like those others, all lazy and stuff..." His prayer will be bumped beneath the man who knows he's not worthy, no matter how "good" others feel that they are.Repeating:
If the gov't expects you to pay for others, you are not in control over your own life. The gov't is. The more you are expected to pay in taxes, the less power/control you have over your own destiny, bank account, life.
Its as simple as that.That's not true. You still have the same amount of control over your destiny and life. You just have less money to spend.
From your statement I take it you are in favor of hiring your own Army or Air Force? How about your own personal Fire Department? Maybe you can hire a Police officer to guard your property while you are away? Surely you can afford to hire a bevy of tutors to teach your children? What about those roads, the traffic lights and judges? That simple huh? Taxes pay for all these institutions and more. While you think it is a simple answer to high taxes what do you think these people should earn? How about a retirement or healthcare insurance? Do you think money just sprouts out of their pockets to pay for the very things you do waiting for you to personally hire them? The simple truth is we need government to pool our resources and fairly distribute services for the general welfare for all. Now of the ones you think are free loading I agree that there needs to be a crack down on them. But the number as it relates to non working poor is about 6% of the federal budget http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2 … rking-poor
So what is the problem may be deeper than you think when it comes to reducing our taxes.Since 1996, seventeen trillion has gone into redistribution of wealth to the poor and has not alleviated poverty.
- not paying for vital services.Nevermind. It does indeed look like we spend about a trillion a year on welfare.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won … each-year/A trillion dollars taken at gun point from those who own and transferred to those who did nothing for it but claim a need and own a vote. A trillion dollars for votes, not a bad deal for the multimillionaires who occupy Congress for decades until they die in office. That trillion is federal dollars, it does not account for all the various state government agencies who also TAKE property and therefore freedom, from those who labored to produce it.
You see, one exchanges freedom for property when one works. When the government takes property it takes the equivalent freedom that was exchanged for that property. Unless taxes serve every tax payer in a roughly equal measure, then tax payers have been enslaved for the value of those taxes.
A tax for an Army serves everyone, even those who did not pay the tax and is therefore a more than just tax. A tax that builds a multi-state highway system serves the entire economy, therefore all members of that economy and again is just. A tax that takes from one man and gives to another for no more reason than a claimed need, is not just.
How simple things can be when one understands that one owns himself and is not owned by the government.Should we just let 45,000 die every year from lack of medical insurance? That's what will happen if we take away Medicaid. Should we let people starve to death because they are the working poor and we take away their food stamps? I understand making people work, but there are plenty of working poor who depend on these things.
The working poor? You mean the working poor who have a television in every room, air conditioning, a car, a smart phone, blue ray players, personal computers and other luxury items undreamed of by the genuinely poor. So if the forced transfer of property from those who have educated, trained, advanced and protected themselves from the caprice of the economy does not happen those who, supposedly, rely on that transfer will lie down and die? OR will they do what people did long before the artificial prosperity of the welfare state, work as many small jobs as it took to feed and house themselves?
By removing the risks of prolonged poverty, you willingly trap people in it - how is that compassionate. Welfare is addictive and keeping people addicted is cruel and monstrous. People are greater than lefty ideas can accept. The individual is a precious gift of God(or nature if you like.) Keeping someone as a ward to the state is to limit his humanity and that is wrong, objectively so.
How about we do away with food stamps entirely and instead provide a monthly ration of staples, rice, powdered eggs, powdered milk, flour, beans and seasonal, regional vegetables and fruits. How about we operate voucher driven clinics and dining rooms. How about treating the SNAP card the same way we treat WIC - there are only some foods it can be used to purchase.
So long as someone will not mine their own potential for prosperity, why should they prosper from the efforts of everyone else? America has the fattest, most comfortable poor people in the world.
Education is free. To reiterate an earlier point - avoiding poverty is a matter of making a few sound decisions - something all but the most challenged can do.
1)Graduate High School
2)Don't have children until you are married
3)Put marriage off until your 20's
4)Always work
http://www.heritage.org/research/report … is-poverty
http://www.donellameadows.org/archives/ … -be-fixed/You ignored my question about Medicaid.
I basically agree on the rest though."So if the forced transfer of property from those who have educated, trained, advanced and protected themselves from the caprice of the economy does not happen those who, supposedly, rely on that transfer will lie down and die?"
Doesn't the removal of all the apron strings encourage adult behavior? If we must care for our own health and we are constantly reminded of that responsibility, what happens to sloth and obesity? They will continue, for some while disappearing for others. Removing hardship does not make people strong and responsible, it makes them weak and foolish.
After all, there is no second chance to avoid a fatal error.Yes, but most Medicaid goes to kids. They can't help what their parents do.
Still not an argument for Medicaid, perhaps an argument for free pediatric clinics. The argument that children can't help what their parents do is not germane, their parents can help what they do and that is the problem. Parents are not held nearly as responsible as they should be for the tiny lives in their charge.
I'm not trying to argue for Medicaid. I DO want to see kids get medical and dental care regardless of how poor they are. Free clinics is a good idea too.
gm, do you think the government should provide free medical care to poor children through use of taxes?
There are many free clinics across America operated by hospitals, private and public. There are clinics operated by charitable organizations. Medicare is a vast, bureaucratic system in which much of the taxes used to pay for it are bled off in the form of inefficiencies and corruption endemic to such systems. A means of direct service to those who are innocent and vulnerable, such as children, would be much more efficient and less prone to corruption and inefficiency.
Collected taxes in Washington D.C. to provide services on the personal level is an absurd idea, yet it is the model for the welfare state. The welfare system is comprised of multiply redundant and woefully inefficient bureaucracies that gobble up 70% of welfare tax dollars before they reach those the system ostensibly aids.
Legitimate charities are profoundly more efficient delivering services than the government. The hired shepherd cares less about the flock than the shepherd whose owns the flock. Charitable organizations are not filled with hirelings merely drawing a check and doing a job for money and proscribed benefits. They are usually filled with people who share a common mission and some operate at 90% efficiency on much less money.
Permitting people to retain greater amounts of their own money and encouraging charitable giving and actions would, more than likely, result in better point of service delivery of medical care. The abdication of all charitable action to government has not mitigated poverty and its deleterious effect on character. We may have fat poor people who reside in relative comfort, compared to the abject poverty of the Third World, but we also have poor people far less capable or willing to change their situation.Hi, Retief.
Would you mind if I asked you to provide verifiable data to support this “70%” claim?
Thank you so much!
"70 percent of every dollar went "not to poor people but to government bureaucrats and others who serve the poor. Few private charities have the bureaucratic overhead and inefficiency of government programs."
The reforms put in place in the 1990's by Bill Clinton have been eliminated or severely eroded in the past 6 years. The welfare system more closely resembles the 1980's than Clinton's 90's or Bush's 0's.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter … mp-fundin/
Well, hi again, Retief. Thank you for providing the rather interesting link to http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter … mp-fundin/ This link is interesting on two levels...
... it proves your 70% inefficiency claim is false, and
... it proves that your claim about welfare “bureaucracies that gobble up 70% of welfare tax dollars” is actually twenty-five year old gobbledygook.
I am certainly looking forward to seeing some truly verifiable facts that apply specifically to these particular points.
Your 70% inefficiency claim is false.
In your words, "The welfare system is comprised of multiply redundant and woefully inefficient bureaucracies that gobble up 70% of welfare tax dollars before they reach those the system ostensibly aids." Not bad paraphrasing, Retief, despite the fact that you made a claim you did not and can not prove. It is strange, too, that “70%” did not strike you as being extreme and in need of careful fact checking.
First, this “70%” fallacy comes most recently from Michele Bachmann. Ms. Bachmann made this claim about the food stamp program and 70% being spent on salaries and pensions in March, 2013. She made no attempt to prove her claim either. She actually said of every "three dollars in food stamps for the needy, seven dollars in salaries and pensions (go to) the bureaucrats who are supposed to be taking care of the poor." {1}
Following my request for the source of your incredible “70%” statement, you repeated a quote from the very same 1996 publication that Ms. Bachmann misquoted in 2013. Your quote reads, "70 percent of every dollar went ‘not to poor people but to government bureaucrats and others who serve the poor. Few private charities have the bureaucratic overhead and inefficiency of government programs.’"
At this juncture, your “70%” claim about inefficiency and waste in the food stamp program becomes even more absurd. It might even be hilariously funny except that the final iteration is a flagrant distortion of the truth.
Welfare “bureaucracies that gobble up 70% of welfare tax dollars” is twenty-five year old gobbledygook!
The 1996 quote from you and reprinted in the previous paragraphs actually came from Michael Tanner of the libertarian Cato Institute. Now get this! He borrowed the claim from Robert L. Woodson, the president of the National Center for Neighborhood Enterprise and the author of Breaking the Poverty Cycle: Private Sector Alternatives to the Welfare State, who had previously made the claim in the 1980s that 70 percent of every dollar went "not to poor people but to government bureaucrats and others who serve the poor. Few private charities have the bureaucratic overhead and inefficiency of government programs."Did you know your false “70%” claim was born more than 25 years ago?
It seems everyone, including you, conveniently missed Mr. Tanner’s footnote regarding this statement: "It is important to note that the 70 percent figure is not solely government administrative overhead. That figure also includes government payments to the non-poor on behalf of the poor. For example, Medicaid payments go to doctors. Housing subsidies are frequently paid directly to landlords." So, Retief, that “70%” inefficiency and waste claim of yours includes payments to “the non-poor on behalf of the poor.” Not only does this distortion date back to the 1980s but it also falsely characterizes legitimate benefits paid directly to the providers as going to government bureaucrats.
Is there any validity in 2015 to your claim "The welfare system...gobble[s] up 70% of welfare tax dollars before they reach those the system ostensibly aids?"
Even the source YOU provided disagrees with you. "That is ridiculously off-base. Even the broadest calculation of administrative costs for SNAP tops out at 5 percent of program costs, far below the 70 percent Bachmann claims. And the scholar behind the statistic she appears to have used as support said Bachmann has misquoted his work. Pants on Fire!" reports politifact.com. {2}
Now let us look at some current facts.
The Food and Nutrition Service spent a tad more than $112B in 2012. That amount was for food stamps and several smaller nutrition programs targeting low-income Americans. Administration costs were $136.5 million, approximately one tenth of 1 percent, and nowhere near 70 percent. {3}
Another analysis in 2012 published by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities calculated administrative costs at about 5 percent after including several other categories of spending, such as state administrative costs and educational programs for SNAP participants. {4}
When the bean counters crunch the numbers, the most generous accounting of SNAP’s administrative costs do not come close to your unsupported, unproven, and unrealistic claim of 70 percent.
{1} http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter … mp-fundin/ See Michele Bachmann speech to CPAC conference, March 16th, 2013.
{2} http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter…mp-fundin/
{3} http://www.obpa.usda.gov/30fns2013notes.pdf
{4} http://www.cbpp.org/research/romneys-ch … mp;id=3655Michelle Backmann's claim is that SNAP gobbles up 70%. That was demonstrably false. The actual claim is redundancies, inefficiencies and bureaucracy gobble up 70% of the budgeted welfare dollar, that was born out in the sited politifact link.
I made NO SUCH claims regarding SNAP. My claim was for the entire system. I am so glad you took the bait. I was hoping you would blow your top over SNAP. I made no such claims regarding that program.
... the Government Accountability Office released its first
annual report on duplicative and fractured Federal spending. The
report estimated that conservatively, $100 billion could be saved
each year by eliminating duplication, overlap and fragmentation in
numerous Federal programs
http://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/u … script.pdf
A vile conservative publication.
http://spectator.org/articles/55875/fiv … lfareagain
lefty solution that indicates concerns about government redundancy, bureaucracy and inefficiency.
"Will the redistribution program increase size of the government and cause bureaucratic inefficiency? On the contrary, some government programs will be eliminated, and welfare will be streamlined as providing money to the poor. Simply writing checks to people does not require many government workers."
http://web.mit.edu/dmytro/www/other/EconomicsPaper.htm
Hardly a model for efficiency.
"The U.S. welfare system would be an unlikely model for anyone designing a welfare system from scratch. The dozens of programs that make up the “system” have different (sometimes competing) goals, inconsistent rules, and over-lapping groups of beneficiaries. Responsibility for administering the various programs is spread throughout the executive branch of the federal government and across many committees of the U.S. Congress. Responsibilities are also shared with state, county, and city governments, which actually deliver the services and contribute to funding."
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Welfare.html
Dig in... government can't handle money.
http://www.heritage.org/research/report … ment-wasteGood evening, Retief. I am very grateful for all of the links provided in an effort to support your false claim. I also understand your trying to distance yourself from Ms. Bachmann’s exaggeration about SNAP, however, I see you intend to double down on your “70%” claim.
Nearly all Americans agree that there is waste in government. However, to insist, as you do, that there is 70% waste over all federal welfare programs is to carry abuse of the truth to an extreme. For some strange reason, you imagine that the Politifact article supports your claim even though the article states quite clearly that the original statistic of 70% was not redundancies, inefficiencies and bureaucratic overhead but other legitimate benefit disbursements as well.
"It is important to note that the 70 percent figure is not solely government administrative overhead. That figure also includes government payments to the non-poor on behalf of the poor. For example, Medicaid payments go to doctors. Housing subsidies are frequently paid directly to landlords." {1}
Just so there is no misunderstanding, this is exactly what you now claim: "redundancies, inefficiencies and bureaucracy gobble up 70% of the budgeted welfare dollar." Furthermore, just so there is no misunderstanding, my reply to this is simple: no reasonable, rational, analytic person should believe your “70%” claim without seeing solid verifiable proof. So far, the undeniable truth is that you do not have any proof!
Do your latest statements and links prove "redundancies, inefficiencies and bureaucracy gobble up 70% of the budgeted welfare dollar?" I analyzed your first proof and found that it fails to prove your claim. In fact, it does not even come close.
Your proof No. 1:
"... the Government Accountability Office released its first annual report on duplicative and fractured Federal spending. The report estimated that conservatively, $100 billion could be saved each year by eliminating duplication, overlap and fragmentation in numerous Federal programs..." You offered this quote as proof along with a link: http://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/u…script.pdf
Sorry, Retief, but I do not believe you actually read and analyzed this document before posting it here to prove your “70%” claim is accurate. For starters, the $100 billion estimate is not in the GAO report! Just like Ms. Bachmann’s criticism of SNAP, this new $100 billion estimate is just as phony. Secondly, there is nothing in this quote or in the linked House Oversight Committee proceedings about “70% of budgeted welfare dollars” being wasted. I, therefore, do not understand why you even posted them.
The World Street Journal reported at the time that the $100 billion claim came, not from the GOA report, but from Sen. Tom Coburn (R., OK). After printing the Senator’s unsupported statement, the paper added “The GAO didn't put a specific figure on the spending overlap.” {2}
It turns out your “$100 billion” claim is just another example of partisan exaggeration and distortion.
If you really and truly believe that "redundancies, inefficiencies and bureaucracy gobble up 70% of the budgeted welfare dollar," why is it necessary for a smuck like me to point out how inane the “70%” claim really is? You should be able to figure this out on your own.
If your “70%” claim was true, which it isn’t, then $100 billion in resulting savings must be pretty close to 70% of federal welfare spending. Your problem is that the US Senate Budget Committee reported the nations total 2011 spending on 80-plus federal welfare programs amounted to roughly $1.03 trillion. When you do the math and divide 100 billion by 1.03 trillion, you arrive at potential waste of around 9%. Not even close to 70% now is it?
No matter how many ways you slice this pickle, you will never prove "redundancies, inefficiencies and bureaucracy gobble up 70% of the budgeted welfare dollar." I am sorry, Retief, but this is a fact!
{1} http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter … mp-fundin/
{2} http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 … 2399165436OOPS! Its hard to clean up a statement especially when the statement is misleading. Another good one Quill.
Redundancy is waste. If one program duplicates another, the entire administrative cost is 100% greater than is necessary to provide the services of the duplicated program. So, if the administrative cost of one program is 9% and that program is one of three which duplicate the same services, then the total inefficiency in providing that service is far more than the 9%. I understand how you missed the point.
No, Retief, I did not miss the point at all. You did not say “far more than the 9%” three days ago. You said “70%.” However, I understand your being reluctant to admit that your “70%” claim is inaccurate, exaggerated, and one you can not prove.
All you need to do now is just provide credible and verifiable data that proves 70% of budgeted welfare dollars are gobbled up by redundancies, inefficiencies and bureaucracy. You need to support 70% because that is what YOU told us we should believe as a fact.
You see, Retief, we all know that the government is inefficient. But this strand in this thread is about making extraordinary, invalid claims that you can not prove. And frankly, my friend, I do not understand why you keep dodging this point.So, you would prefer a distant, bloated, redundant, inefficient federal bureaucracy that has demonstrably failed to serve poor people at the expense of swelling the ranks of federal employees, rather than lean, efficient and proximate services, like SNAP and other means tested voucher programs, that are governed by states. I appreciate your desire to place ever more authority and wealth in the hands of the central government, that always works so well.
Thank you, Retief, for another evasive reply.
Our conversation has been limited to just one simple but crucial question: Did you make a false claim when you told this forum "70% of budgeted welfare dollars are gobbled up by redundancies, inefficiencies and bureaucracy?"
Your answer is: "So, you would prefer a distant, bloated, redundant, inefficient federal bureaucracy..."
Meantime, the honest answer is, “Yes, I made an extraordinary claim that I can not support with any data.”
A propensity for making false claims and an aversion to honest answers has been noted.
Stay well, Retief, and have a pleasant evening.
A duplicated bureaucracy is a waste of 100% in taxpayer funds.
This IS the natural way of the whole world except the human kind ,cut the apron strings !+++++++
It is time to reduce welfare by at least 60%. It should be for the truly disabled rather physically, emotionally, mentally, and psychologically. Also it should provide a temporary socioeconomic respite for hard times such as unemployment. Other than that, anyone who CAN, SHOULD work. Work fare programs should be forcibly implemented, mandating if one elects not to work, then h/she WON'T eat. Tough measures NEED to be applied to remedy the situation at hand......and I am a Liberal Democrat.
How much money is actually going to people who don't work? I see a good deal of the welfare money is spent on Medicaid. Should we take away that and just let people die and suffer because they can't afford medical care?
"a Liberal Democrat"
You sound like an apostate.
I heard it on the radio. I dare not mention who.
Mother Jones, really, you could just pull the newspaper out of the bottom of some random bird cage - that has more useful substance on it than Mother Jones on line.
- ahorsebackposted 9 years ago0
Okay Folks , so I'm worried that as I look around at younger generations than I , I see massively overweight , under enthused , financially overburdened , lesser motivated people ! We are screwed !
LOL!
I mean its not a laughing matter.
I heard that sixty percent of kids interviewed think it will be fine to…NOT WORK at all!
again, I have no link.
- ahorsebackposted 9 years ago0
No matter quite how much we believe that government gobbles up social service , welfare dollars , no matter how much we' bean count' the social program dollars , we HAVE to consider also that ALL government dollars are mostly wasted on bureaucracy alone , the largest organized labor force in the world - IS the federal government ! And many of you people think that welfare dollars ARE NOT wasted ! I know common sense is a thing of the past but does "head in the sand" still mean anything ?
The question is how do these kids turn to when they grow as part of a failed money?
What are teachers doing? Role models guys.......A lack of skill set training. And personal accountability. Instalation,
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000- also the MAIN thing that drives poverty and crime in America is the LARGE/VERY LARGE FAMILY(6 or more kids per family). Such families are likely to be poor, even impoverished in relation to small families(1-2 kids per family) who are more socioeconomically affluent. In large/very large families, there is NOT enough monies to go around. It is commonplace for children in large/very large families to do without, even the basic necessities. Children from large/very large families oftentimes receive insufficient nutrition because there is little food to for each child. Two decades ago on DATELINE NBC, there was a family of FOURTEEN children and the father wondered HOW he was going to feed all his children as he did not have enough money for food. It was suggested that he goes around the stores to ask for surplus food. He even fed his children millet. On another news show during an interview, a mother of eight indicated to a reporter that she asked the older children to go to bed hungry so that the younger children can eat. There are school programs who offer free meals to children from large/very large families. If it were not for schools, many children from large/very large families would be hungry as their families cannot afford to feed them adequately.
Now, it gets EVEN WORSE. Besides being malnourished, even undernourished, children from large/very large families receive little or no medical care. Thankfully, schools offer medical/health care or these unfortunate children would not receive any type of medical/health care. They, of course, have castoff or discarded clothing as their parents can ill afford to purchase quality clothing for their children as such are expensive for the typical large/very large family. The average large/very large family since they are poor and/or impoverished, receive SOME type of assistance/aid either through more affluent relatives who financially support them partially or wholly, churches and other charities, and/or the government. A majority of large/very large families receives these types of aids; there is only a minute percentage of large/very large families who are independently sustainable, middle class, and/or better. In essence, there are very few large/very large families who are socioeconomically and/or financially sustainable; most are in a socioeconomic quagmire of one sort or another. Okay, I am digressing here. Let me continue.
Children from such families have to work from childhood to get the things that other normal children have. Many of them, especially the older ones, have to forfeit their education to work in order to supplement their family income. The majority of children from large/very large families will remain poor, even impoverished like their parents and this socioeconomic pathology continues for yet another generation. Many parents of large/very large families are not concerned at all regarding how their actions adversely affect their children socioeconomically. They reproduce children without any forethought as to how large/very large families increase the likelihood of impoverishment. They want to have children regardless of the negative socioeconomic consequences it ensues. The average parent who has a large/very large families are only concerned about what THEY want, not being concerned one way or another about their children's socioeconomic status. I have seen this many times from extended family members; my maternal grandparents; from classmates who talked about, even cursed their parents for having such a large number of children; and I have studied the correlation between large/very large families and impoverishment in college. If people STOPPED having LARGE/VERY LARGE families, the poverty rate would be reduced significantly!
If someone has one or ten kids.its paramount. That they and we teach them life skills. From the earliest age..proper discourse. Is somewhere to begin. I think
Again, the main reason for or the most influential component in economic poverty in America is the large/very large family. In large/very large families, there isn't enough money to go around per child. Children have to do without, even the rudiments. It is commonplace for children in large/very large families to go hungry a lot of the time, particularly oldest/older children in order for the younger children to eat. If it weren't for free food programs in our schools, many children in large/very large families would neither get decent or nutritious meals.
I delineate again....children in large/very large families DON'T receive basic medical, health, and dental care because their parents CAN'T afford it due to large number of children in the family. Parents of large/very large families can't afford to buy quality clothes, so they wear discarded, castoff, and/or otherwise used clothing. Large/very large families must depend upon outside aid, help, and/or assistance either through affluent relatives who either financially support them in part or wholly, donations from churches and other charities, and/or from the government. Only a very minute percentage of large/very large families are economically sustainable, even fewer can be classified as solidly middle class (middle middle class), upper middle class, and upper class. Most large/very large families are what one would classify upper lower, middle lower, and lower lower class economically.
Parents of large/very large families DON'T teach their children. They either have very little or no involvement in their children's lives. They believe that children should teach and/or raise themselves. I have witnessed this firsthand. Parents of small families teach and are involved with their children while parents of large/very large families leave their children to their own devices. It is quite common that children in large/very large families raise themselves and/or each other. Children in large/very large families have to learn to be independent and self-sufficient from early childhood as their parents aren't going to do anything for them.
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