Ukraine – Yet more lies from governments and mainstream media

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   sannyasinmanposted 10 years ago

   Contrary to what most world governments and mainstream media are telling you, there IS NO build up of Russian troops on the Ukrainian border, as these eye witness accounts from USA journalists will tell you . .
   
   http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukrain … dup-n67336
   
   Inform yourself. Look for the other side of the story . . .

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      Quilligrapherposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Hello, Sannyasinamn. Nice to see you here this evening.
      
      In a manner of speaking, you are right. Russian troops are not standing shoulder to shoulder ON the Ukraine border but then again, no one ever said that they were!
      
      You realize of course that you have reached a half-baked conclusion that “there IS NO build up of Russian troops on the Ukraine border” based upon an “eyewitness” report. The journalist drove mostly parallel to the border and never more than 30 or 40 miles into Russia. In his words, “We traveled some 500 miles along the border – sometimes right next to Ukraine, at other times 30 to 40 miles from it.” {1}
      
      You also realize (I hope) that major concentrations of troops and armored units positioned another 50 to 100 miles beyond the view of this reporter could actually reach the border and invade Ukraine in less than 3 hours.
      
      You should also realize (but you don’t) that all of the information you have at your disposal DOES NOT rule out the possibility that THERE ARE sufficient troops and armor within striking distance of the border. Furthermore, those troops are trained and prepared to invade Ukraine if given the order.
      
      “NATO's military chief warned Wednesday that Russian troops could begin moving on Ukraine within 12 hours of being given an order, amid fears that Moscow could seek to invade its eastern region.
      
      “Gen. Philip Breedlove, NATO's supreme allied commander Europe, also told CNN's Christiane Amanpour that with 40,000 troops massed near the border, Russia has all the components necessary to move on Ukraine.” {2} [Emphasis added to “near” and not “on.”]
      
      Still, while conciously aware of this possibility and without any meaningful information to the contrary, you would proclaim “there IS NO build up of Russian troops on the Ukrainian border” . The fact that the NBCNEWS article says nothing about troop and armor concentrations that may exist beyond the literal view of the journalist does not seem to be important to you.
      
      In the end, Sannyasinman, you did not prove the government and the media lied. You only proved that it takes more than just reading a headline to understand what is happening in the world.
      
      It is nice to exchange ideas with you, Sannyasinman. Be well.
      
      {1} http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukrain … dup-n67336
      {2} http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/02/world/eur … ne-crisis/

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         MG Singhposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         It is not important that Russian troops are on the border of Ukraine or not. Frankly they should be there to end the hegemony of the dying colonial powers France and England and the USA now in eclipse mode after a crushing defeat in Afghanistan

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            Silverspeederposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            I like the way you would be happy to remove one set of colonialists with another MG Singh especially ones who have already lost a war in Afghanistan!

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            rhamsonposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            I would hope the eclipse mode for the US is misinterpreted as a smart mode. The US getting entangled in so many political conflicts that result in troops occupying foreign soil has been costly both in lives and money with less than satisfying results. Unfortunately with politicians like McCain there always seems to be the notion that military might and maybe some hegemony by the US should be the normal response to others political unrest. With Syria in its third year of war against its government and approximately one million refugees maybe others in the area will at last see that Assad needs to go for the good of the region. Perhaps a political solution not run by confederates such as the Muslim Brotherhood could replace the defunct president. But let Ukraine run its own affairs and if they vote to join Russia so be it. Cooler heads should prevail.

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         sannyasinmanposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         What is important is that there you are being lied to once again by western media and its politicians, and you cant/wont see it. That s your choice.
         
         The point is that there are no troops massed on the border as the media, Kerry, Cameron et al, have been repeatedly saying in an attempt at more scaremongering. Putin has repeatedly denied this, as have journalists from both sides on the ground. Russia even offered to allow aircraft to fly along its border with Ukraine to verify that there is no troop buildup. But of course the offer was not taken up, because the issue is not fact or truth, but lies and propaganda.
         
         As for Russian being able to invade Ukraine at a moments notice, that argument is quite frankly ridiculous, as the same could be said for the multitudes of US and NATO warplanes, missiles, etc within striking distance of Russia/Ukraine which COULD be unleashed on Ukraine/Russia at a moments notice. But Russia is not saying that the US and NATO are amassing forces, and are ready to invade.
         
         Under the circumstances Putins response has been muted.  Imagine the reaction of the USA if Russia begain interfering in the affairs of Mexico, right on the USA border. Would that be OK with you? The USA should keep out of it. It is not their business.  . . and now there are reports of Greystone/Blackwater mercenaries secretly operating in Eastern Ukraine..

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      maxoxam41posted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I know. I NEVER listen to mainstream news. They won't fool me. I leave this privilege to "les moutons de Panurge" Panurge's sheep (the mass).

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         psycheskinnerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         So what non-mainstream source of information are you relaying in?

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      Silverspeederposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Have you looked at a map recently? Russia doesn't have to amass troops on the boarder it could launch an invasion within 24 hrs!
      
      I have just read that Russia has decided to increase its gas prices to the Ukraine, maybe they have decided to attack them economically first? This would also help with a retort against the EU as quite stupidly the EU has built a reliance on Russian oil and gas.

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         sannyasinmanposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         The point is not whether Russia could invade Ukraine in 24 hours, the point is that you are being lied to repèatedly by the leaders of the Western World in order for you to buy into their political agenda. You owe it to yourself to look beyond the spoon fed, carefully scripted propaganda put out by CNN, BBC and other news channels.
         
         Did you believe them when they told you time and time again in the news that it was beyond any doubt that Saddam Hussein really did have WDM's? Did you believe their lies and propaganda then?
         I did. Now I know better than to swallow whole whatever they want me to believe. Dont you?

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            Quilligrapherposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            G’day Sannyasinman. I sincerely appreciate your sentiments. I really do.
            
            Many people believed at first that there were WMD and that the invasion was justified. However, when they learned new facts, many altered their positions about the invasion but not everyone totally abandoned their objectivity in exchange for absolute distrust.
            
            A positive claim that our government lied about Russian concentrations along the Ukraine border requires proof. On the other hand, a negative claim that there are no Russians poised on the border to invade the Ukraine requires no evidence until positive proof is presented. However, it is irrational to base any claims on President Bush’s lie in 2003. That unrelated event is not connected to today’s events.
            
            In order to convince readers that the US is lying about Russian troop and armor concentrations along the Ukraine border NOW, indisputable evidence that the government is lying NOW is necessary. Citing government lies from President Bush in 2003 is really no proof at all.
            
            Many Americans have adopted an attitude of total distrust in their government while at the same time they are happy with an “eyewitness” report from a complete stranger. They are willing to believe a roving journalist who had no access to Russian installations, who never wandered beyond 30-40 miles of the border; and who had no knowledge of what was sitting beyond his field of vision.
            
            These same unbelievers reject other reasonable possibilities. They choose to believe Mr. Putin and they choose not to believe leaders of NATO, the EU, or the USA. They expose their predisposition to accept as fact any information that complies with their preconceived suspicions. While most Americans are quite capable of reaching a decision based upon verifiable facts related to the current issue, others seem to have already reached a decision without having any facts at all.
            
            Finally, permit me to respond to the statement, “You owe it to yourself to look beyond the spoon fed, carefully scripted propaganda put out by CNN, BBC and other news channels.” The most common error among political junkies is to believe that anyone who has a different world view is ignorant, blind and uninformed. The most valuable lesson anyone can learn, however, is just how ignorant, blind, and uninformed this belief really is. 
            
            I am so pleased to read your opinions on this platform. Keep learning, Sannyasinman, keep growing, and keep posting.
            

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               GA Andersonposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               OMG!
               Among the league of Masters there are no second chairs.
               Humbly from my gallery seat I can do no more than stare.
               
               GA

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            2. 61

               sannyasinmanposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               How much proof do you need that you are being lied to and manipulated? Maybe this will help . . .
               
               http://rt.com/news/nato-satellite-images-drills-712/
               
               If you watch the news on this channel, they have other examples of lies portrayed as truth (false photos etc) in order to bend public opinion . .
               
               http://rt.com/on-air/

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                  Quilligrapherposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Greetings Sannyasinman.
                  
                  Thanks for the link to RT.COM. I have checked it out.
                  
                  To refocus on the issue, you claimed that the US government lied about a Russian troop buildup along the Ukraine border. I did not agree or disagree because I have no opinion and still do not. I simply asked for evidence to support your claim.
                  
                  I suspect that you and I have drastically different ideas about what constitutes proof. This discussion will not be fruitful if we can not agree on this basic definition.
                  
                  My sense of objectivity tells me that verbal testimony from military or government officials on opposite sides of this issue should not be considered as evidence of any kind.
                  
                  After reading the RT article, I am feeling kind of stupid and I need your help.
                  
                  The article says, NATO photos were taken in August 2013 amid military drills, according to a source in the General Staff of the Russian Army. 
                  
                  The text goes to say, “Upon looking at the photos, a senior official at the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces has confirmed to RIA Novosti the troops shown are indeed Russian ones and that they were photographed in the south of Russia”
                  
                  “These shots, which were distributed by NATO, show Russian Armed Forces units of the Southern Military District, which in the summer of last year were taking part in various drills, including near the Ukrainian border,” the General Staff official told RIA Novosti.”
                  
                  Therefore, as I understand the article, a member of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces admits the photos shows a concentration of Russian military hardware near the Ukraine border. Since none of the pictures are date stamped, neither you nor I know when the photos were taken. I need you to point out where in this article I will find proof, that is hard and undeniable evidence, that the troops, armor, and aircraft in the photos are not still at the location(s) where the Russian sources say they were photographed. Even the quoted Russian military source does not say the troops, armor, and aircraft in the photo have been moved, thus leaving open the possibility they are still there.
                  
                  Finally, and this is not crucial to the evidence issue, but RT is a news outlet with headquarters in Moscow and funded by the federal budget of Russia through the Federal Agency on Press and Mass Communications of the Russian Federation. {1} Therefore, it would be unrealistic to expect the station to say or print any facts that would place their funding at risk. Surely, you would agree with this assessment since you have implied as much about US news sources.
                  
                  I accept as fact, Sannyasinman, that you can publicly accuse the US government of lying without having any proof while I hold myself and my opinions to a higher standard. Meanwhile, I shall wait to see your evidence.
                  
                  It is always a pleasure for me to hear from you. Thank you.
                  
                  {1} http://www.infox.ru/business/media/2009 … omi.phtml/

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            Silverspeederposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Actually I read the information from many different news and opinion sites and hopefully this aids me in forming an opinion and I shall state that it is my own opinion just as much as most if not all reports are an opinion by journalists. Just like it was the opinion of the Journalists that there were no massed troops on the border, I asked myself were they suitably qualified to make such a decision as to state them as facts. Would you base your decisions of whether to defend your country on the opinions of a few journalists?
            In every lie there is an element of truth.
            
            I did not believe the hype about the reasons for the second gulf war (or the war against Saddam), I also had no vote on the matter and therefore had no say in the actions taken, however my vote at the next general election reflected my thoughts about who were responsible for the rubbish of that war amongst other things.
            
            My own thoughts of the particular issue is that nations like Russia. the USA and even the EU dislike instability along its borders and as those nations or the EU will contest their borders start and end where they believe and not where the general public believe they do.

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