The "Great" Society which was instituted in the 1960s led to the current welfare state & the massive socioeconomic malaise associated with it. Many people on welfare are able-bodied people who CAN but WON'T work. Also, much of welfare is generational. There is a suggestion to this: Dismantle the current welfare system & institute STRINGENT, MANDATORY work fare programs. If welfare was cut by at least 85%, American society would be functioning much better. Our tax dollars can go into MORE CONSTRUCTIVE programs which would benefit all of American society, instead of DRAINING it! Your thoughts?
Grace, a lot of that is just so much rightwing claptrap. The right has an agenda exaggerating Welfare and related social services costs to the economy. I think that you are being taken in by the GOP and its propaganda, I can also say I spend too much money in padding subsidies for the rich and affluent, between the two, who do you think I rather see get help more urgently?
There is no justification for lazy people but if listen to the GOP debate they are say that taxes are too high and wages are too high. That certainly addresses the problem and they are that problem. There are plenty of people that work and can't make enough to live, so I subsidize the greedy private sector with my taxes to make the difference between living and poverty for these people?
I have no mercy nor consideration for the GOP or its agenda. They are the bougeoisie and we all know what their fate must be.
I hope we can agree that some people abuse the system and some people need help.
I do volunteer work with an agency that helps people with intellectual disabilities, mental illness and substance abuse.
Some of them can barely dress themselves.
We aren't addressing the physically, emotionally, intellectually, mentally & psychologically challenged people. It is OBVIOUS that they need assistance. We are addressing able-bodied, mentally capable people who CAN but WON'T work, instead they maintain that society or the man owes them a decent standard of life w/o effort on their part.
I am surprised that America has what they call welfare states which, from what I can understand from your thought, is inhabited by a bunch of 'some' lazy people! I believe these able bodied persons live on government hand outs or to put it more appropriately, on the sweat of others ( e.g. Tax Payers). Little wonder, the influx of emigrants from other countries into the US just to take up rejected jobs and pay heavy tax that will sustain the lazy able bodied persons who are not interested in these jobs.
I live in Nigeria where survival is for the fittest. 'No food for lazy man!' This is a popular adage in my country. There's nothing like welfare here. We have the aged of 80 yrs+ who go to the farm in order to survive and those that are too weak to work, resort to street begging. We are very hard working people living under terrible governments.
I want to believe that America is like Paradise! Drop any of those lazy ones from the welfare states in my country, they wont last two days! But we're used to it. That's why some of our compatriots who migrated to the west to do menial jobs return home to be millionaires in their rights.
May God save us all.
MrNok, for folks like yourself, America is paradise. And I am glad it is so. In our society security has devolved to the point of "everybody deserves" whatever. We have advanced beyond the need for daily subsistence, and in the process forgotten the personal responsibility needed to advance the individual to a level of personal achievement.
You life experiences of "survival of the fittest" is the foundation of human evolution, but unfortunately too many progressive folks, so comfortable in their daily security, view the need to do what it takes to "survive" as a passe' issue.
I can only hope they take the time to look at 3rd world daily life survival to see if their progressive agenda is realistic.
GA, the extreme liberals & extreme left in America believe that everything should be free. They advocate free housing, medical care, food, & other necessities. They purport that no one should have to pay for these things. That is why they believe in the welfare state & distribution of income to "eliminate" poverty. That is why they are vehemently against the wealthy & highly successful. They contend that no one has the right to be wealthy while others are poor. They are the ones against "the evils" of capitalism & for "the good" of socialism.
The poor in America are the socioeconomic straits that they are because of a passive, fatalistic, & negative mindset. They have a negative attitude towards success & achievement. They hate their lives, wanting the good life but are unwilling to take the necessary steps to achieve their goals. They would rather have others give them the life they feel that they "deserve", responsibility is too onerous for them to consider. In college, I remember studying all night for an exam which I aced. My poorer aunt indicated that she could not do that, that was TOO HARD. My aunt wanted the easy life; she did not believe in exerting any effort to achieve anything socioeconomically. She hated her impoverishment, her job &.........her life but SIMPLY REFUSED to anything about it. She lived free & of others for most of her life. People in America do not have to poor/impoverished/on welfare if they do not want to. Everything is a CHOICE!
I have never met anyone who thinks everything should be free. And I have met a lot of people in my life.
Never met a single person living off the welfare rolls without working? You lead a very sheltered life.
I'm surprised at how much you misread my statement. I didn't say that I haven't met a person on welfare who wasn't working. I said I haven't met anyone who thinks everything should be free.
And I'm confident my life has been much less sheltered than yours. Otherwise, you wouldn't say such a thing.
I'm confused. If a person is living off welfare, without contributing anything to the country, aren't they saying that everything should be free? Housing, food, phones, clothing, utilities, etc.?
I guess not a yacht or 747, but everything in their life is free and they continually want more.
I think you would see things differently if you visited a local facility that provides day help or permanent help for intellectually and physically disabled people.
In some cases, they are confined to a wheelchair, incapable of speaking, simply looking at the ground. Others talk but are not understandable except by trained care givers.
They contribute nothing and get everything for free. But they are so disabled that they are barely aware of their surroundings.
I have seen plenty of examples of perfectly able people who abuse the system, and it makes me just as mad as anyone else. But there are plenty of others who need help, and a lot of it.
Veterans severely wounded in war fit into that category too. My uncle lost most of the use of one arm and one leg in Vietnam.
But, Wilderness, maybe that person on welfare is trying to find a job, and does not prefer to be on the dole.
There are a lot indignities associated with being on these programs, there are more than a few people that would rather work than be at the bottom of everybody's shoe.
Maybe they are. But it's kind of doubtful in second or third generation women all living their entire life off welfare. It DOES happen, you know, and not that infrequently however much the left doesn't like to admit it. (Shades of your post that all right leaning folks exaggerate the other way!)
No, there are few indignities associated with the programs, not to people that have spent years on them. Just indignation that they don't get more - one of my relatives, for example, is incensed that her free phone has no data and she can't surf the web on it while sitting on the couch in front of the TV. "They should DO something about that!"
Yes, I know it DOES happen, but to listen to the righties talk, you would think that every other household has people on the dole like this. Inattention to this problem is the reason that we don't have the robust economy Republicans talk about all of the time.
LOL And listen to the lefties talk, it never happens. But you're right - inattention to the huge amount of $$ given to people that won't work is one reason the economy is so slow.
Personally, I find that way too many people that need short term help (health, job loss, accident, whatever) can't get it until they are pushed so far down that they virtually can't recover. Everything they've worked for is gone, all because so much of the limited amount available is going to those that don't need it. Another exaggeration of course, but it seems the lefties are trying to force the entire country to depend on their largess.
In regard to the statement regarding inattention, I was being facetious. More stuff the right is shoveling to distract people from the real issues, the cost of entitlement programs that as GA says no one wants to talk about nor dare touch.
From your idyllic perch in Idaho, you say that too many people that need help don't get it in favor of those you believe don't need it. That is a pretty broad statement what is behind it to support that observation?
To share an account, my sister was diagnosed as bipolar and was receiving benefits, SSDI and support from the state for a housing subsidy.
she lived in a second floor apartment, it happened that there was a sewage backup on the upper floor that spilled into the tub and was soaking the floor and the carpet. When this disaster was brought to the attention of the apartment manager, he basically gave her a mop and provided a wet-vac and told her she had to clean it.
That would not have even been spoken about to a tenant that was paying the full rent, without subsidy.
The endless standing in lines at the state offices, the probing and prodding into your personal life in return for a pittance, subsistence as it were in most states.
Sis walked away bipolar and all to take a chance with the job market to regain some of her dignity as a human being.
Those that are of mindset to catagorizing people on welfare and public assistance as hopeless slugs contribute to the quiet bigotry of low expectations.
But here's the problem with your story; why was she ever on the dole when she was quite capable of supporting herself? It isn't even called fraud anymore as she followed all the rules!
Along the same lines, a lady I knew was on disability - a full ride from SS and getting more than I do as an early retiree. Nevertheless, she wanted more and was going to back to work...but she had to be real careful not to earn too much or they would start taking away the disability. Well, if she can earn more (not too disabled to do so) then why in the world are we supporting her for the full ride?
Another one - a friend is a veteran and therefore partially disabled to the tune of $800 per month (nearly every vet is disabled - they work very hard to find anything wrong). She joined the reserves to supplement her full time job and was astounded a year later when her disability was cut because she obviously wasn't too disabled to be in the Navy after all! So quit the reserves so she could have the same money without working for it.
These things aren't illegal at all, any more than your sister was, but they aren't right. It isn't reasonable to charge the rest of us because some don't want to work what they can.
The point is, Wilderness, she wasn't capable, she lost 3 jobs in the span of half a year because of behavior aberrations on the job when she decided to step out on her own.
Hindsight is always 20/20. Would she have had this knowledge of her capability after the immediately after diagnosis and would she have received SSDI based solely on trivial and whimsical perceptions on her part?
While there are some lazy slugs out there, not everybody's situation is the same, or as the rightwinger says 'one size fits all'.
Absolutely not all situations are the same. Which is why the leftwing concept of simply throwing money at everyone is a losing proposition.
But here, I'll give you another example: A man I know personally has a brain injury and it severely affects his thought processes and short term memory. Leaving home to drive 10 blocks to town, he forgets where he is going or how to get home again; it's that quick.
When he showed up in court to apply for disability, the judge asked if he could work and his reply was "Sure!". Bingo. In spite of the testimony of multiple mental health specialists (that had spent considerable time with him) to the contrary he got nothing because of that one statement from a damaged brain. Were his parents (in their 80's and one is disabled) not both working to earn enough to feed and house him he would surely have starved to death by now.
Or another: my daughter in law at one point was single with two small children but working part time while going to college. She couldn't make ends meet and asked for help to pay the electric bill. She was told no, she made to much for help...but if she would quit her job they would pay her housing, food, utilities and school costs! Total support! How insane is that!?
Our welfare system is broken to the point of almost total dysfunction. What we need are some people responsible for actually making decisions on a case by case basis instead of blindly following either the path of unlimited money for anyone outside of the 1% demons OR no help for anyone.
I totally agree. I thought of adding "a cases by case" decisions should be made to my post but I didn't. Then, there are a lot of people who just fall between the cracks in some states and cannot get any assistance. It seems to be that way with getting disability or even medications that would improve a person's quality of life, both are fights that I have given up on until I am 65.
It is just that the rightwing attitude that everybody is a moocher is not good.
The cases you present are compelling examples of a system that is applied improperly, amazing we live in a society where people can be relegated to starve to death due to no fault of their own.
Make it more responsive and efficient, yes. But either extreme in regards to this topic is not the answer
And the leftwing attitude is that everybody deserves a life full of luxuries at taxpayer expense. This right/left crap is just that; crap. Neither side has it right even as both sides claim moral superiority. And both fail miserably at morality, execution and both intended and actual results.
The left is creating a subclass of dependent citizens that will vote for them to keep their freebies coming while the right is denying aid to those that need and can make use of it the most. And keeping taxes as low as the left will allow, buying votes for them. Both are disgusting and despicable.
I will say, though, that the left's continue growth of charity WILL result in complete failure; we already see it in European countries that have gone down the path themselves. If I could get off my soapbox that both are wrong and evil, I'd have to choose the right's attitude as the greatest good for the greatest number in the long run. Or maybe the least harm to the least number in the long run. Still isn't right, though, as it hurts many people that are trying their hardest.
No, that is the rightwings opinion of the left. But I don't hear you complaining about the excesses on the right near as often, if both sides have it wrong.
That underclass of dependent citizens idea is just BS, right wing talking points to justify why they continue to lose elections at the national level when every demographic with the exception of old white southern men vote against them.
There are many affluent groups that vote Left, why? What was the right's excuse as to how come Obama managed to win a second term, all those moochers and low information voters were overwhelmed by the liberal media and Obama's deft use of same, rubbish!
The right will get us all to hell faster, watch and see. If I came down from my soapbox, I will find the right and its religious priggishness, bigotry, advocacy of the plutocrat over the common citizen and its authoritarian attitudes and beliefs far more dangerous.
To each his own
"The right will get us all to hell faster, watch and see"
Won't argue that, either. I was referring to the left's economic/giveaway programs, nothing more. Personally, I predict a major religious upheaval in the US in the next decade or so as the far right tries to exert religious control over everyone and that same "everyone" objects to it rather vehemently. And it could cause more harm than the entitlement giveaways that the left are using to drive the economy to hell before the people can get there.
We see it in the constant abortion fight, we see it in the gay marriage bans and LGBT persecutions and discrimination, and it's getting worse as the flaunted "morals" or the religious radicals are called more and more into question. As they don't measure up to modern ethics and morals, and that becomes more and more obvious, those sad radicals are finding themselves in quite a fix.
Nevertheless, the Kim Davis's, Westboro churches and Ben Carson's of the religious right will fight to the last bitter breath to maintain religious control of the country and it's going to hurt.
Yeah, Wilderness those are my fears a substantial subversion of democracy and the democratic process. When that comes down the way they want it, believe me, the Left will be the least of your problems.
I can't agree with you more!
Some blame the authorities when choices they make don't favor them. The system in the USA is sure to breed laziness as it provides the grounds for it. I believe that every body should quit the blame game and work hard and make the best out of life, which is short.
Hi there, I just want to add my two cents on this topic. You see, I grew up on welfare....so I know the system pretty well inside and out. Here's the deal:
Most people on welfare are not getting cash from the government. Welfare refers to a whole host of programs designed to help people get back on their feet or pay for outrageous medical expenses. So you have state and county programs that help people find affordable medical insurance - which typically requires updated paperwork every six months and proof of job situations and bank statements. Same goes for SNAP benefits and food stamps - you get a small amount of money to spend on food based on your income and family size, and in order to even qualify for food stamps you have to work so many hours a week at your job (more than 20 but less than 30)...
Most people who get welfare are those who suffer from debilitating mental illness and disorders who can't hold down a solid job very well and need help with medical bills for treatments and government assisted housing. Some of them are single moms who were doing just fine until one of the family providers up and leaves, making it hard to make ends meet AND raise kids.
Very few are drug users or "lazy" people, outside of medical help and food stamps, most types of welfare assistance (like unemployment) are temporary and a one-time only kind of assistance. Once you've taken advantage of it you can't get it again, so this myth about the "Welfare Queen" picking up checks from the government for years is just that, a freaking myth.
And of whose agenda do you think that it is to continue to spread these exaggerations, distortions and lies about normal people working to survive?
We have all heard the old adage that "the squeaky wheel gets the grease." Could that be the case here? Does the minority that abuses the welfare system represent barometer that the rest of our society judges the whole by?
I say yes. There is plenty of welfare abuse, but that does not diminish the issue that tax payers see as a problem.
We are no longer a nation that reveres personal responsibility. We have become a nation of victims. And I put that responsibility firmly on the Leftists that want to promote "equality for all." Bullhockey! If you want equality - work for it!
GA, you are of GREAT MIND, +1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000! American society has devolved to a culture of entitlement, victimology, dependency, & rescue/save me. The American mantra has retrogressed to "what you can do for your country" to "what your country can do for YOU."
It is the extreme liberals & extreme leftists who contend that poor people in America are victims of their circumstances & life. They even go as far to lament that the American poor are oppressed by "the man". They proclaim that it is not the fault of the poor that they are in their dire socioeconomic condition. They castigate those people(like me) who point out that many times the American poor have a consciousness, mindset, mentality, philosophy, & psychology which imbue poverty.
Yes, it is these same people who deify the American poor as saints, even martyrs because they have to endure "the injustices" of a "greedy" society & culture. They even demonize the wealthy because in their eyes, the wealthy are "oppressing" & "exploiting" the poor. They assert that it is the wealthy & even highly successful who are "wrong, bad, ......evil". They contend that it is the wealthy who is THE PROBLEM in this county, NEVER the poor. GA, try discussing how the poor are poor because of their negative life choices with them? It is an exercise in utter futility!
Now hear this, let me make this as clear as crystal.
Grace, now you know that I have never displayed a great deal of sympathy for lazy people in the system.
GA, did I strike a nerve? Obviously, I did. When I look at your virtual face, I don’t see purple, but crimson red.
I think that we are talking past each other. My problem is that the GOP in the latest debates seem to indicate that Welfare fraud is a major component of what needs to be corrected to “get the economy back on track’. While the article I provided is from the left leaning Salon publication, I saw enough of the debate to see the rhetoric from the candidates and the direction in which it is leading. It the same old gargle they have been using for years, and let’s face it, their mouthwash still ain’t making it.
http://www.salon.com/2015/11/11/fact_ch … r_economy/
When you look at the components of welfare, who receives it and get past the racist and class bias of Reagan’s ‘Welfare Queen’ analogy, the truth is another story. GA, maybe that is one of the reasons that I don’t consider Reagan to be a hero. I say that the GOP are a bunch of disingenuous liars who exaggerate the magnitude of welfare fraud, while the major entitlements that their constituencies support( Medicare-Social Security) are untouchable. But, of course, the poor have no advocates.
Large programs are always subject to abuse, it is cost of doing business. What about that corporate welfare and billions wasted by the DOD just in Iraq, for example? I don’t have any obligation to give my money to plutocrats or have it disappear in a desert with no one being held accountable. Being a progressive, I put people and their needs first.
So, guys do I need to dredge up more? I not disagreeing with what either you, GA, or Grace are saying in principle. I am attacking the GOP and how they present the problem as so terribly earth shattering to defy belief.
And, yes, GA, it is a ‘clown car’.
Thank you for your attention...
I hope you aren't expecting this "crimson red" face to defend the GOP, or the rhetoric that comes from the debate stage.
I do think the GOP does it more than the Dems, but both sides are using the debates to tell voters what they think they want to hear, whether it is correct, realistic, or in some cases, even believable.
I am sure you remember that the sacred cows of Medicare and SS are Dem-originated programs, and neither side will touch them, not just the GOP.
But... I still say it is the Leftists and Progressives that have fostered what I see as the trend of entitlement expectations and lack of personal responsibility in too many Americans.
Often it seems that discussions on these topics argue over the nuances of the differences between shades of gray, but a much more clear picture of the point can be discussed when you include the perceptions of someone like MrNock.
"...both sides are using the debates to tell voters what they think they want to hear"
Has a single politician said anything at all that wasn't straight from the party line? Except maybe Trump and his tirades for attention?
It is their expansion of the party positions that is getting worse.
I hear you, GA
The only reality in life is that all things are relative, and the fact that the GOP engages in this misdirection more often and frequently makes them worse.
I understand your position concerning entitlements and lack of personal responsibility as leftist and progressive
But I blame the culture of increasing inequity, crony capitalism, military largesse and waste as the tendency of the right and conservatives.
It is just a matter of which of these you find more distasteful.
That is why roses are red and violets are blue?
I like reading about the states that are enforcing laws for food stamp recipients to have to work so many hours or attend training for employment. Of course that is required of only able bodied individuals. People drop like flies from the food stamp programs because they do not want to do anything to receive the benefits.
Then, there are the states that are now requiring drug testing for welfare recipients with life-time bans from the program for those who test dirty.
I hope more states will enforce their laws which got ignored during and since the last recession, and add drug testing requirements. Its working well for the states that are doing it from what I have read.
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