What do protesters at Berkeley want?

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   jackclee lmposted 7 years ago

   Recent protests in Berkeley campus turned violent. These masked individuals are trying to shut down free speech. They disagree with speakers and use violence to shut down the dialog.
   The question is who are these people, what do they want? And why are they wearing masks?
   If they feel so strongly about their position, why not debate them in open forums?
   Who is teaching them these fascist tactics? They didn't come up with these ideas on their own.
   
   
   
   
   

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      jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Who is Bob Avakian and www.revcom.us?

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      Don Wposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Why are you participating in spreading a biased narrative? What's your agenda? What are you trying to achieve?
      
      You claim not to be a Trump supporter, yet in almost every thread I have seen about Trump you are supportive. What do you want exactly?

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      Credence2posted 7 years agoin reply to this

      are conservatives the only people in the universe that you give credit for being to think on their own?There are a lot of people who have problems with Trump.
      
      There are alternate versions of this story that make the issue more complex than just Trump and Anti-Trump, there has been an infusion of Pro-fascist, white supremacists at this rally and they clash with those that resist them. Perhaps, you need to get another view of this story, Jacklee and then talk?
      
      https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/dc54a33d-4 … es-in.html

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         jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         Credence, so why are they wearing masks?
         What do you consider far right?
         Does a veteran, who wants to defend the American flag being trashed, considered to be far right?
         
         I am just asking the question, what do these protest groups want?
         Regardless what group they belong, obvious,when they are protesting, they are unhappy with the status quo.
         
         I had the same problem with Occupy Wall Street and Black Lives Matter...
         What do they want?
         
         With the TEA party movement, it was clear and I get it. These other groups, I don't get it. So help me understand.

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            Credence2posted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I shall attempt to answer your question
            
            First, the courts established that defilement of the flag is an acceptable form of speech and protest. As a veteran, that is not the way I would do things, but I am more worried about those that trash the ideals that the flag represent over the flag itself. That threat is constant and consistent from the Right.
            
            Occupy Wall Street (OWS) is the name given to a protest movement that began on September 17, 2011, in Zuccotti Park, located in New York City's Wall Street financial district,
            receiving global attention and spawning the movement against economic inequality worldwide.
            
            That is your classic definition and it is the basis of protest, but unfortunately it did not have the legs to take hold much politically.
            
            But we did get Bernie Sanders out of it. He or a similar advocate focusing on this will be back as soon as people learn the truth about Herr Trump.
            I am in COMPLETE agreement with the protest and its aims.
            
            
            Here is an article from USA Today that nails it regarding BLM and its purpose. I am in COMPLETE agreement with this, as well.
            
            https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/201 … /86942642/

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               jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               Credence, but you didn't answer me. What do these groups want?
               These groups comes on the scene, and then disappear till the next flash.
               Some have accused George Soros and his groups of funding these anarchist...
               To create chaos... but no resolution. If the case of BLM movement, it has done more damage to race relations and force some police to hold back leading to more crimes in the inner cities.
               Who is harmed more in the end?

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                  Credence2posted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6L9sQ … hzWHM/view
                  
                  Alright, Jacklee,
                  
                  in the attempt to address the demands of those of the "Black Lives Matter" movement, I hold reservations to many of the points in those demands.
                  
                  For example, talk of eliminating the death penalty or providing reparations for slavery are politically impractical and diverts us from the focusing on the concerns that is a driving theme of the movement.
                  
                  America is still a race based culture and racism is still an underlying motivating force here. There are
                  plenty of sites that speak to your question. You are free to access any of these and I am well aware that you can and probably have. You just want my "take" on it?
                  
                  To think that any policy declaration can deal with this incessant problem of racism in American life is just as naive as my expecting to live without oxygen.
                  
                  That is where the declarations fail for me.
                  
                  I am not in agreement with the entire policy platform or manifesto of BLM. But, I am more sympathetic to it than otherwise. This is what I want:
                  
                  There is no question that there is a disparity of how Blacks are treated during the confrontation with law officers or within the criminal justice system. This data of course is normalized to take into account that the nature of a crime committed by a Black vs. White is similar. What is being done to make that disparity less stark?
                  
                  I resent the Right's incessant campaign to dismiss the concern of racism in these areas, dismissing the movement as one of a terrorist nature.This just a mere excuse for them to avoid acknowleging the need to discuss the issue further.
                  
                  Avoid racial profiling as it is a poor substitute for good police work.
                  
                  I want police to be held accountable and insist on body and dash cams to provide evidence of inappropriate behavior from either them or the citizen in a confrontation.Those are the only circumstances where I would be willing to allow police more discretion in doing their job, rather than less.
                  
                  My primary concern is that the police are now allowed to act as an occupying army within African-American communities.

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                     jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     Your demands are quite reasonable. How do you envision they get implemented. Does BLM groups seem like the right channel to get them adopted?
                     They seem too radical for me. I prefer the non violent protests of MLK which got more attention and more importantly better results.
                     BLM will have more credibility if they also tackle inner cities black on black violence.
                     I also support body cam for all police officers. In a world of he said, he said... the video will resolve most cases and perhaps lower the tension in the immediate aftermath of an incident.
                     I also think a new generation of black leaders could help. The Rev. Sharpton is not a good role model for civil rights activist. IMHO.

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                        Credence2posted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        Your demands are quite reasonable. How do you envision they get implemented. Does BLM groups seem like the right channel to get them adopted?
                        ------------------------------
                        Yes, if the BLM can be accepted as more than a rag tag mob. Since deaf ears seems to be the rule and there are many that are content that the issue not be addressed, action is necessary. Of course, those that are part of the continuing problem are not going to find any form of political response  by aggrieved parties acceptable.
                        -------------------------------
                        
                        They seem too radical for me. I prefer the non violent protests of MLK which got more attention and more importantly better results.
                        ------------------------------------
                        I have always advocated non-violent protests, but many conservatives see, that too, as provocative as they would just as soon not allow the fundamental grievance represented by the movement to ever see the light of day. Yes, lets not promote violence but keep in tight with the media and let the world know that this matter is not over, nor resolved. But I am sure that you know that during the period of Dr. King's non violence marches and protests the "establishment" considered him and his movement radical and provocative for even suggesting that the status quo be changed. Do you know how many were killed in pursuit of that justice and parity during the civil rights era?
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                        BLM will have more credibility if they also tackle inner cities black on black violence.
                        -----------------------
                        This drive behind BLM is that the official representatives of law and order in this society are not abusing their authority, I do not expect common criminals to rise to that standard. This is what we are dealing with in regards to 'black on black' violence. This is just another form of misdirection by conservative types.
                        -------------------------------
                        I also support body cam for all police officers. In a world of he said, he said... the video will resolve most cases and perhaps lower the tension in the immediate aftermath of an incident.
                        I also think a new generation of black leaders could help. The Rev. Sharpton is not a good role model for civil rights activist. IMHO.
                        ----------------------------------
                        
                        Great, Jacklee, then why are Conservatives, for example AG Sessions, basically opposed to the concept of police cams?
                        
                        Why do we need "leaders", it is interesting to note that no other group have so called leaders?  The days of Dr. King and the method of his protests has changed with the times. The old 'monolith' leadership approach is giving way to something new. I can't quite define it yet, but your question has brought these thoughts to mind.  In the face of instant communication and ubiquitous media today as compared to some 50 years ago,  some manners and methods would have to change. But the constant is: Conservatism, as practiced in contemporary America has too often been  naturally antagonistic to the needs and aspirations of black folk. That is most unfortunate, IMHO
                        
                        Thanks, Jacklee

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                     wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     Do you not find profiling to be a part of "good police work"?  Not a substitute - that can be nothing but a gross exaggeration in an attempt to denigrate any profiling at all - but a part of it?
                     
                     Do police look for a shooter in a black neighborhood by checking all girls under the age of 6?  (Should they check any girls under 6?) Do they first check white women?  Spend a few days looking for Australian aborigines with guns?  Limit their searches to those in a turban or a Burqua?
                     
                     Or do they look for a black male, likely with a police record, that has a gun?  That's profiling of course, but would it not likely be the quickest way to find a shooter in a black neighborhood?  Is your objection that police, looking for a shooter in Chinatown, will first search all blacks before looking at Asians?

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                        Credence2posted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        Do you not find profiling to be a part of "good police work"?  Not a substitute - that can be nothing but a gross exaggeration in an attempt to denigrate any profiling at all - but a part of it?
                        -----------------------------------
                        Wilderness, I said RACIAL profiling. The "Stop and Frisk" policies shot down by the Courts just a handful of years ago is an example of just rounding up men and subjecting them to illegal searches just because they were black men on the street in the wrong place and wrong time? So, the problem is not imaginary nor science-fiction. Of course, there is a role for PROPER profiling, that  takes into account many pieces of evidence to naturally limit a search to those most likely to be the perpetrator.
                        -----------------------------------
                        Do police look for a shooter in a black neighborhood by checking all girls under the age of 6?  (Should they check any girls under 6?)
                        -------------------------------------
                        But can the search parameters be too broad, like looking for every black man wearing shoes? So, without further evidence, I would not dismiss the crime having been committed by a white male or female. What is the search description based on? It is not unheard of to have people accuse blacks of personal criminal activity against them as a way to divert attention of law enforcement from themselves. That, too, has occurred.
                        
                        
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                        Or do they look for a black male, likely with a police record, that has a gun?  That's profiling of course, but would it not likely be the quickest way to find a shooter in a black neighborhood?
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                        If the description used to identify the perp is reliable and not BS. In a black neighborhood could it be a white male that committed the crime? Rule that out as well.
                        
                        A better example that many years ago, working part time as an airport security screener, people took offense to being searched, as if they believed that as a little old lady or an obvious upstanding white male business type, they should not be subjected to this as it is obviously 'those" people that should be subject to greater suspicion and naturally searched as a priority over them. The nerve of some people, huh?
                        ____
                        Is your objection that police, looking for a shooter in Chinatown, will first search all blacks before looking at Asians?
                        --------------
                        Racial bias toward blacks in general would make your hypothetical more real than you would think. You look at everybody until there is proper evidence that allow you to limit your search. Of course, you could rule out those underage  5 for objective physical reasons as they are certainly not strong enough to pull the trigger.

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                           wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                           Then profiling CAN be alright.  I even like your thing about airports - it's comical that profiling is always fine...as long as I am being profiled as unlikely to be a criminal.  If it goes the other way it's always bad.
                           
                           But, you know, profiling is not used in a search as much as it is used for "suspicious activity".  I think it was Arizona, where cops were trained in profiling for illegals; a pickup with 6 Hispanic men in the back, all wearing way too many layers of clothes, parked at a corner street known for picking up illegals for temporary work, could be checked for ID was an example.  Of course it was deemed to be "bad" profiling by the left and not permissible, which was absolute nonsense.  It's almost as silly as searching for only black men in Chinatown after a random shooting.

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                              Will Apseposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                              The whole thing about the political right, in any country, is that foreigners did it. Whatever the it is.
                              
                              If I got worried about pickups full of people, I would never get to the bar. Which would interfere with my freedoms, considerably.
                              
                              Pause for effect.
                              
                              The fears of, older, white American, men...
                              
                              What can be done to help them in their declining years?

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                                 wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                                 Is there a reason you "illegally profiled", something cops are heavily trained not to do, by leaving out most of the evidence of illegally crossing the border?
                                 
                                 What would the point of doing so be?

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                              Credence2posted 7 years agoin reply to this

                              I guess that is OK if the proposed offense was being in the US illegally. Enforcement of that is outside the purview of your typical cop on the beat.
                              
                              They were not, in your example, being targeted just because they were Hispanic men. But as an INS officer, I would have grounds to detain and ask questions based on time honored definitions of behavior that correlates with that of  an undocumented individual.  Someone who may be asked to present ID based upon reasonable suspicion. I could support such a conclusion in court, if I am called to substantiate the action of accosting and questioning the men.

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                                 wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                                 That was exactly the offense, and it was not outside the purview of the cop on the beat...until the feds declared that Arizona cops could not arrest or hold for being in the country illegally.  A great move by Obama.
                                 
                                 But the point was the profiling itself; we are on opposite sides of the street with you believing cops routinely profile based solely on skin color while I believe a good cop (which 99+% are) would never do that.

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   Onusonusposted 7 years ago

   Liberal professors encourage violence in their students. They foment the idea that Trump is a fascist therefore all conservatives are as well. If all conservatives are perceived as Hitler then it is okay to shut them down, set things on fire, and beat people up. After all they are fighting against Hitler.
   
   Liberalism is about mob action and tyrannical social justice, and most college professors are liberals.

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      jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      The solution is put cameras in college lecture halls. I would like to know what these professors are teaching our young...and what they are not teaching...

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         colorfuloneposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         Just ran across this article that was shared on social media. 
         
         There Will Be Blood: Left Prepares For War After Berkeley Beat Down: “Combat Training, Better Equipment, Guns…”
         *  http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/t … 2_04182017

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   colorfuloneposted 7 years ago

   Sheriff David A. Clarke is keeping an eye on things.  Now, we seem to have people with flyers and stickers at Berkeley calling for beheading collage Republicans.  Really?  I wonder if Berkeley bigots are going to be able to pull off totalitarianism.   How close is CW2?
   
   Where to send your kids to learn about killing freedom of speech.
   
   Maybe its the normalization of Islamic tyranny and terror, along with the female genitalia mutilations.

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