Our troops presence in Afghanistan by 4000. Do you agree or disagree?
Which answer do you want jackclee? The emotional one that says get the hell out of there, it's been long enough, we can't hold there hands forever? Or the rational one that has to include thoughts of how would the fall of Afghanistan, (to the Taliban), affect our national security, and regional interest concerns?
I gave you my emotional answer, but I would have to know a lot more, and give it a lot more thought, before I could offer a reasonable rational answer.
It has been 14 years...what have we been doing all this time?
At some point, we need to leave.
I remember Obama giving a very similar speech.
We are still there 8 years later.
Perhaps, there is no solution.
Who said there must be a solution?
Maybe, this is just one of those cases where no solution is good.
Given that choice, I rather leave and let the local people deal with it.
The Russians learned their lesson...
I agree with you jackclee. But.... I have the real concern that what I don't know could make all the difference in my opinion.
For example, and not to say I am promoting this thought - but what if it is a possibility.... what if our most knowledgeable foreign affairs experts see the fall of Afghanistan as similar to the discredited Vietnam "dominoes effect" theory. What if the fall of Afghanistan would lead to an expansion of the Islamic Extremist's power? What if its fall meant we would facing a more united extremists Middle east?
Is it possible that our foothold in Afghanistan is a doorstop that is keeping Taliban-style extremism from enveloping the entire Middle East?
Currently Saudi Arabia's addiction to Western dollars seems to be keeping the extremist Wahabiism from overt control, but what if the Taliban, (a compatible companion to Wahabiism), control of Afghanistan formed a bloc of Islamic extremism?
I don't have those answers, but those thoughts do occur to me, and I am far from knowledgeable on those types of foreign matters. Is it possible that we really must keep Afghanistan out of extremist's hands no matter what the costs? Is it possible that Isolationist policies could be our worst possible choice?
The above is why I could offer no more than an emotional answer to your question. And we all know how fallible emotional responses are.
As for your "who says..." Even in my limited knowledge I say there must be a solution. As a nation, whether it is our reputation, or our security, that is at risk, my gut tells me that there is a risk, and there must be a solution.
I think that as long as religions exist in this world (they are supposedly diminishing and will be gone-ish in about 50 years), these types of conflicts will continue. If you think about it, religion is the only really 'valid' excuse for going to war (or having a 'conflict') anymore. Sure, we can know that things are really about land or resources in some places - but using the 'we're crazy for our religion' excuse (in NK's case, and possibly China's, their country IS their religion) makes it easier for the world to shake their heads & sigh while watching the conflicts continue - kind of like we consider religion to be 'free speech no matter what', so the world is more willing to let things get worked out around it, however that is happening...
Its probably the main reason why Putin keeps going behind the scenes to cause trouble (such as hacking); because he doesn't really have a religious excuse that he can use to take what he wants. That's what they get for so many people in their country turning atheist, ha!
So, the question really becomes... Do you think we will ever be able to convert militant Muslims to the much more popular and more peaceful version of their own religion (or maybe even another peaceful set of beliefs); OR will we have to kill most of them before anything changes?
Its a sick choice to have to make; and I'm pretty sure Trump didn't want to make it - just based on his campaign rhetoric. I certainly won't hold it against him to make an informed decision, despite his promises, if it is really in the best interest of the country. I'm just hoping he has had more help with this issue than the transgender one, LoL!
You are mistaken tying wars to religion...
Did the American Indians fight among themselves?
Did Communist, atheist nations try to dominate the world?
Did we fought the civil war over religion? or Slavery...
The two has no connection... we have had wars both for religion and other reasons.
The problem with Islamic extremists is that they co opted a religion and use the mosques and madras to brainwash the people to commit suicide in the name of Allah.
It is very difficult to convince people when they don't value human life.
Religion may be declining in recent years but I see it as a cycle. It will become fashionable again...when people realize technology is no replacement for faith.
You misunderstand... Sure, wars used to be about other things... other much more primitive things oftentimes involving the selfish egomanias of Kings & Queens, etc. (If the heir to the throne was Trump - he's King no matter what he acts like toward the people.)
But, this is the modern era... We don't kill for such childish reasons anymore (or so we delude ourselves). Fighting over religion is the reason why ALL the Middle East conflicts exists - not just Iraq/Syria, etc. Religions are the reason why we take sides - America sides with Israel because our politicians consider us to be a Christian/sister nation to Isreal because of our religious foundations. The reason why most African countries fight has smatterings of religions mixed in with it - such as the kidnapping of those girls a few years back. Saudi Arabia with their 'women can't drive' among other misogynistic BS; and India with their high girl-abortion rates and rape statistics - all surrounds twisted religious ideals. (I realize most people probably don't consider those things to be official wars.)
Even in our country... most conservative views are molded around dogmatic Christian ideals (which makes it REALLY the main thing we are all actually fighting over): ie., 'don't make me help' others via scary 'one-world government' healthcare policies & outlawing abortion are largely based on fundamental & evangelical Christian teachings in churches today. OMG, the way some Christian churches turn the Constitution into The Bible; and our Founding Fathers into Christian Saints - is amazing. Sorry, I've sat in on too dang many of those types of sermons. It would basically be like Sarah Palin giving an American history lesson from the pulpit off the top of her head - ugh!
Religion used to cycle, but since science is now starting to back some things up in a big way and 'salvation' has been debunked (I always enjoy a convenient place to plug my 1st spotlight hub - check it out if you haven't, yet. - that kind of extremists religious mentality is going to greatly diminish; although I have a hard time believing that it will all completely ever go away. I think it will become kind of like - you know, how devout Star Trek fans continued to carry on conventions for years in between the various series' & movies, etc. I think they will become like that, ha!
"According to a Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report published in October 2007, the U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could cost taxpayers a total of $2.4 trillion by 2017 when counting the huge interest costs because combat is being financed with borrowed money." - Wikipedia
How can we justify the expense why at the same time demanding lower tax rates, ignoring a massive national debt and dealing with a crumbling infrastructure?
Get the hell out.
We have a warzone on our border the media fails to put the spotlight on, they fail to tell you more people are being killed along our own border than in most actual warzones in the world.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanielp … c2b0205e3f
--"The number of fatalities from the expanding war among Mexico’s criminal cartels grew to 23,000 in 2016, compared with 17,000 in Afghanistan and 16,000 in Iraq."
And that is not taking into account places like Honduras and El Salvador where many are slaughtered over the drugs produced in those tiny nations for shipment to America (often via Mexico).
The Cartels are their own international army, with a military budget that dwarfs Afghanistan (also a nation dependent largely upon the production of illegal drugs for their income) which in contrast is a 'junior varsity team' compared to the Cartels south of our border.
We are ignoring the growing tide of social/civil decay in our own Nation, in past times we have had internal conflicts, marches, riots even, but to the best of my knowledge we never had a period where the murders of police officers became normalized, a regular part of the daily routine in America.
Furthermore, what good has our destruction of Nations efforts done throughout the Middle East?
Is Iraq better off now for our decades long involvement in its affairs?
The destabilization of a half dozen nations throughout northern Africa and the Middle East has done only one thing, assure the inevitable collapse of the EU economy, as millions upon millions of uneducated migrants from war torn nations poor into its borders and put a strain on social/welfare supports that were not designed to support an influx of millions of people.
Ordinary people know and understand something that pro-immigration economists and politicians are ignorant of or simply ignore: uncontrolled immigration does not improve per capita income, immigration does not make ordinary people financially or culturally better off.
It makes them worse off.
With cheap immigrant labor, profits are privatized while costs are socialized. Cheap immigrant labor might boost the profits of low wage employers, but in a welfare state the tax payer foots the immigrant bill while watching his local community become a foreign country.
In our own country companies like Tyson Foods, and Toll Brothers love the influx of cheap labor that replaces the American worker, and they pad the pockets of those in D.C. to keep them coming.
No we don't need to be fighting endless, unwinnable occupations in places like Afghanistan, what we need, is troops on our own streets and along the border, to protect our own citizens to include the police who are openly under attack.
Maybe that was the plan all along, maybe the way to defeat a nation is to destabilize its society enough so that they accept marshal law within their borders to keep them safe?
Maybe that is where all this was intended to go.
We destabilize one nation after another with our Military, while the flood of violence and drugs into our own country helps create enough unrest and uncertainty that we welcome law and order being imposed here in America by our own Military.
This might come as a surprise to some of you on HubPages...
I am against this plan. If anything, we need to draw down our presence.
It has been 14 years since the invasion of Afghanistan. Whatever we could achieve there is long done...we cannot be the permanent police. I don't want another Korea situation where we stayed 60 years after the war and is still there...
Trump has no choice like Obama to follow the Israel Project against the Middle East.
1. Pro Lithium is a vital metal that is mostly used in the manufacture of rechargeable batteries for mobile phones, laptops and electric cars.
2. Opium goes for 60 million dollars a barrel & has increase greatly in Afghanistan
3. A Oil pipeline.
It is business as usual for billionaire and trillionaire by a very low cost of labor. Nothing to do with terrorists and a 100s of other greater ways to die
All the BS about religion to the side. I'm against it. Not only do I think we shouldn't increase our presence, I think we should pull our troops out.
This is why nothing ever changes - around anything - not the middle east, not arguments at home that we've been having for decades, etc. Until we acknowledge where the root of the issues are and deal with them, there - there will be no changing anything for the better. We'll just keep trying to tinker with every other less-painful symptom of our collective mass delusions.
Yup, business as usual. I hope to still be around in 50 years. I hope the predictions surrounding religions are correct for the sake of absolutely everyone for so many various reasons.
Of course, by then we will have other challenges & problems to deal with, LoL!
I agree with you. Enough is enough.
That aside, what did you think of Trump's speech?
Did it seem presidential?
I disagreed with his escalation of the war effort, however, I thought he gave a pretty good speech.
He is more eloquent than GW Bush.
His delivery was very smooth and he said the right words.
I am just not buying the same argument of a "hasty withdraw..."
It can't be hasty after 14 years of fighting...
We have reached the point where I don't think anything more can be done there...
It is a lost cause.
It may seem that way to you but that is not our history. We have had major changes - for example from the Carter administration to the Reagan administration...I don't know if you old enough but I lived through those years. It was like night and day.
You comments about religion also shows how you've been influenced by a secular society based on science and very little faith. The two realms are not occupying the same space. Science and technology are great but they don't have all the answers... that is where religion comes in. When there is no answers, that is where faith and religion take over. Noticed right after 9/11 or some major disaster, one of the first thing people do is pray and go to church...why?
"You comments about religion also shows how you've been influenced by a secular society based on science and very little faith." Have you even LOOKED at what my 1st spotlight hub is about?!!
Consider our history? WHY did people start coming to this country? Religious freedom, or not?
I'm not saying that having a spiritual life causes these wars - pray away! They are the result of religious zealots mixing with political processes that cause & continue fighting. (Such as our country's current biggest arguments surrounding healthcare, abortion and so many other religiously-twisted topics.)
The difference between Reagan & Carter in MY conservative household at that time was that Carter didn't deserve our attention because he was a Democrat with crazy 'liberal' ideals that did things like send his young daughter to a public school instead of a private one. He didn't have a whole lot of respect in our house for that one 'Democrat' reason. And as I said earlier, we all voted for Reagan for one reason: he was in the party that would take away the law of abortion.
I realize that no one in here would EVER vote for a person for such frivilous reasons - but, that is the reason why so many #NeverTrumpsters felt that they HAD to vote for Trump.
Continue hashing out every other reason surrounding our country & our world's biggest problems - like I said, you'll get nowhere. Like we have been.
Let me remind you the difference between Carter and Reagan. I am probably a few years older than you.
Under the Carter years feom 1976-1980, (by the way, I voted for him), he had the gas lines, the wearing sweathers around fireplace, the oil restrictions, man made, the Iran Hostages and the hyper inflation of 14% or higher... so you see, it was not about abortion or religion.
With Reagan, he gave us hope. He put America back on top. He build up our military, peace through strength, he rejected the Salt talks, he gave speeches about the evil empire, he made us feel good about being Americans and can do attitude. He brought inflation under control, cut taxes and started an economic boom that lasted 20 years. No wonder he was re-elected with 49 of 50 states with many blue dog democrat support. Where are they now?
You are completely missing the point and continuing to swerve around it. You are older than me, but I remember some stuff like the gas lines. But, with only one term - I find it very difficult to believe that everything that went wrong was ALL his fault with NONE from the previous administration.
I know we like to give every president 'the fault' - and sometimes they do hold it, singularly. But really, one administration bleeds into another; and changes get folded into the batter - we hardly notice them, sometimes.
I remember the us vs them mentality way back then. My conservative midwest town HATED (okay, strongly disliked & disagreed with) 'liberals' way back then... I keep telling you that our current arguments are not new cuz they're NOT.
Am I missing the point? Are you saying elections don't matter? Why vote then?
I actually agree with Obama on this. He said elections have consequences...
And they should.
That way, each side gets to try their policies and see which works and which doesn't.
I fully realize that in economics, there is a delay effect. Some over lap between administration is always the case. However, in the case of Carter vs. Reagan, it was clearly a problem with his policies...
His micromanagement style, his sheepish outlook... and his progressive agenda and global outlook.
He was willing to accept a 2nd rate America and allow the Japanese to surpass us...
Reagan was not. He believed in the basic principles that made America great in the first place.
He spoke eloquently about the shining city on the hill...
He called out evil when it exists...
He stuck to his guns even at times against his own party. He was a true conservative and his 8 years not only brought America back from despair, it made us shine.
We long for another conservative in the Whitehouse. Trump is not that Conservative.
I've been ready to walk out of the Middle East and leave them to their own problems for many years. Then I realized, we've been in Germany, Japan, and Korea ever since those hostilities ended. And nobody in those places is still shooting at us. We have more troops in South Korea than we do in Afghanistan. Had we seen the dangers for what they were after the Soviets left that country, we wouldn't be where we are today.
Very good point. It's a wild and woolly region that appears to be what they want. Civilization, by any standards most of the world defines it, is not something desired by enough in that region to ensure it will ever happen. I say we accept reality for what it is.
Except we were a different nation in the 40s and 50s.
The US of A was not only the single Industrial Nation left standing, controlling more than half the world's wealth and functioning factories... but it was the de facto world Super Power at that time. All other rivals save that of the Soviet Union, couldn't have put up a fight against America if they wanted to at that time.
Today we don't even hold a third of the world's wealth anymore, and our Industrial base has been gutted. We no longer have the ability or means to rebuild these nations, nor do we control neighboring nations around them, which means our efforts are continually destabilized by the likes of Iran.
Japan and South Korea were easy to rebuild and restructure in comparison, not only were American efforts far more capable at that time, but both of those nations are practically secluded islands.
And Germany as well, was an island of a different sort, surrounded by nations that were America's closest allies, save for the tense border with the Soviet Union.
It's worth noting: more people have died in the name of God than any other cause in mankind's history, according to some historians. Religious wars are alive and continue. How many Christians in America fight verbally about details of our Holy Book?
In any case, increasing troops without an exit plan gives me pause-what do they know?
Another point: Afghanistan is next door to Pakistan,. (Remember that place where Ben Laden was hiding?) It's also a nuclear nation, do we want terrorist getting hold of those things? That's a very legitimate reason to keep troops there, especially, since these people cross the border easily.
One other fact: China has set up enormous tin mining companies in Afghanistan. Other countries are getting profits from our labor and security. If I don't miss my guess, good old DJT wants some of those resources and wants America to get a cut of the material wealth there.
In that, he might be thinking clearly-let the troop deployment pay for itself.
Look, we have tried everything over the last 16 years since 9/11. Why don't we listen to Osama Bin Laden for a change. He clearly said the main reason for his attacks on the US is because of our involvement in the middle east...why don't we believe him? Let's leave and see what happens.
Perhaps they will leave us along...why not try it?
What do we have to loose?
We are not winning anyway? Are we?
Then, in this we may find agreement-Trump may not have to build that wall along the border-following his philosophy. Elections matter, Jack, in as much that the people are given a choice which results in carbon copy politicians anyway (lol). Realistically, we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, and some of it would probably give us nightmares. I always think it is interesting how presidents go in promising one thing, and then they are given a reality which somehow we don't get a glimpse of by whoever. Then, they wind up towing a similar line as the previous president.
True in most cases. We know the Power that Be is pulling the strings no matter what.
They control the money, and that is the source of power in Washington DC.
Many politicians gets elected to Washington wanting to make a difference. Once there, they are corrupted. That has been the history of our political system.
Both parties fall into this trap...
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