Building a southern border wall to keep out illegal immigrants is a Pres. Trump promise that is strongly supported by his base. Is it really a viable solution?
To be clear, I think a "wall" is an emotional response that is silly. As many pundits have sais; "A 20' wall will just promote sales of 21' ladders."
But, a look at the practicalities of a physical wall seem to also point to its emotional cachet. That "ladder" crack is not off-base. Folks determined to breach a physical wall really will just get longer ladders. Then there is the topographical issues. Have supporters considered the actual terrain that must be walled? Com'on folks, these aren't the times of China's Great Wall. From ladders to ramps to tunnels, there are too many ways to defeat a physical wall today.
Then look at the pysological statements of a "Wall." Is that really what America is, a walled fiefdom?
I don't think a southern wall can be realistically justified. I think it is a "feel good" panacea. Can you support a contrary opinion?
There is also the possibility of going under the wall.
Mexico has stated, "We are not paying for the F***king wall!" So between paying for the wall and Secret Service traveling to Trump sites every weekend, the tax restructure will not help John Q You and Jane Q Me.
As DJT stated tonight, once you are sitting on the other side of the desk as President, your view is more realistic. That's why he wanted to hurry and get rid of Bannon.
No GA, I cannot. There can be no effective wall built and we can't afford to build one anyway. Some do not realize what a daunting task it would be to construct a man-proof fence the length of the border.
GA, the idea or building a wall from Brownsville to San Diego is a daunting task. It is going to be prohibitively expensive, is Mexico going to pay? I doubt it. I would prefer attacking it from the other angle, if illegals cannot get employment without a social security card or some form of indelible identification supporting their being legal residents, it would help. If you can't get a job or a drivers license and employers that are caught hiring illegals are penalized in a way where their business can well take a turn for the worse, this could be a deterrent. We cut off the demand and the supply will fall. We could visit the idea of the old 'Bracero program' to allow migrants workers in to do specific jobs, not under table and in secret. They may stay under the provision for a set period out in the open, all this is done so that their labor is not exploited by employers.
Ha! Listen to you Cred. If only it were so. All, (or at least almost all), that you mention are already laws and regulations on the books. They just aren't being enforced. But you are right, if they were enforced it would be a hellava good start to getting our borders under control.
And like you, I would prefer that type of control too, but there would still need to be some type of border monitoring - for those sneaking in for purposes other than work.
The idea of building a 4th century wall to keep out 21st century "bad guys"? Good one! How use that money to important stuff like healthcare and education. Oh that's right, trumptard repubicans are against healthy educated people.
As usual Paul, your witty contribution is just one more dung pile to step over. But, since it is a thread I started I did feel an obligation to pause and at least consider a courtesy reply. The dung pile reference was the safest I could come up with. Sorry.
maybe it was an analogy for SOME sort of border control. We are more strict these days as far as inflow.
"From February through May, the number of undocumented immigrants stopped or caught along the southwest border of the United States fell 60 percent from the same period last year, according to United States Customs and Border Protection — evidence that far fewer migrants are heading north, officials on both sides of the border say."
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/03/worl … -wall.html
and "Since President Trump took office on January 20, 2017, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) has arrested more than 40,000 people! This is a new era in the world of immigration enforcement. The Government is no longer slapping people on the wrist and releasing them shortly thereafter. The Government is taking a more aggressive approach to removal and this is impacting countless of families in the U.S."
https://lnmcbeanlaw.com/2017/07/28/immi … -the-rise/
I think you are right Kathryn. I think "Wall" supporters desperately want our borders controlled, and until this administration's change in policies a wall seemed the only thing left to try.
I will have to disagree with you a bit on this response, GA. Neither Trump, or his supporters, had any idea of the logistics and cost of the sort of wall DT promised to construct. Willful ignorance is not much of an excuse in my opinion. It's easy enough to survey the proposed path of the fence using Google earth, or simply look at a few maps instead. Sadly, many will simply believe the buffoon.
I am not sure you are disagreeing with me Randy.
If you look at my reply to; first Diane - dollars and logistics weren't given the serious consideration they merited, and then to Kathryn - the wall was a symbol of doing something' regardless of the feasibility of that 'something', you end up with my response that "Wall" advocates are supporting the concept from an emotional perspective - no facts or Google searches needed. Which seems to be what you are saying.
Think about it... when a contention is solely an emotional one, the ignorance isn't purposely willful - it just isn't usually even a consideration.
Of course folks arguing against an emotional position might think it is willful ignorance - because validation of the pertinent facts is so easy, but to those holding that emotional position - facts don't matter.
Sorry GA, my mistake. I see what you were saying.
Is a "wall" a barb wire fence and lots of sophisticated surveillance equipment supplemented by fast response teams? If so, the cost is going to be considerably less than the cost the nation is already paying to house 10-30 million illegal aliens.
Might mention that if we DO construct a wall, whether stone and mortar or electronic, we won't be the only country to do so. Others are currently doing the same thing - borders MUST be controlled.
"Good fences make good neighbors" Robert Frost
“Love your neighbor; yet don’t pull down your hedge.” Ben Franklin
So is this what Trump said he'd do? Or now is it a "metaphorical" wall. The latter would indeed be a bit more realistic and perhaps Trump's base will settle for such a change in his original promises. I would not be surprised....
He talked about how tallt he wall should be.
I know I'd be happier. Something effective would be nice, which a stone wall will not be.
Of course, no wall by itself will do anything; only when supplemented with actual people will it work. And with enough people, any wall will do; even a line painted on the dirt.
You make a good point Wilderness - about the type of wall. The perspective of the OP is that most "Wall" supporters are thinking of a physical barrier-type wall - brick, mortor, steel, not the futuristic drones and electronics-type you mention.
Now I wonder... was the OP's perspective right, or do a majority of "Wall" supporters think of an "electronic-type" wall. Hmm... maybe some will chime in and let us know.
I certainly agree that our borders must be controlled, I just don't think a physical wall is a solution.
As a note; your "fence" reminded me of a Sci-fi bomb with Tom Cruise. In it, there were low-orbit outposts that immediately dispatched "border agents" to electronic trips of the "Restricted Access Area" barriers.
If you want to stop illegal immigration, stop companies paying very low wages. Simple as that. Wasting billions on a wall is ridiculous.
True! If people can't get employment, there is no reason to come. Arrest people who hire undocumented workers. That'll nip it in the bud.
That's right guys, we don't care if we have to spend 20 times the price for our produce and meats! It's the principle of the thing.
We're already paying it, just not in the grocery store, so not much will change there.
Do you think we would get the "we're already paying" money back if we stopped those doing the manual labor for our cheap food? Do you believe our food would be just as cheap when Americans refuse the labor entailed in the harvests? In reality we will lose our cheap food supplies and not get any rewards for doing so. A lose/lose situation any way you look at it.
Are you adding the cost of thousands of extra schools into that cheap food? The extra unemployment and welfare for Americans that don't get to work? The extra cops and jails? The welfare the illegals get? More teachers for their kids?
Or are you ignoring all the extra costs the country is paying?
Have you compared the cost of produce and meats against what we assist migrant workers with? Would you harvest peppers all day long in 100 degree heat, or even worse, toss watermelons into an old school bus until another old cut-down bus arrives. The temperature index is actually 108 degrees 0f humid hell.
How's that cool slice of watermelon, Dan?
Raising wages won't help, but some real enforcement and teeth in employment laws will. Illegals will still produce fraudulent ID's, but we could stop a great deal of it.
The government could spend money on a good registration system that includes number like ss# with a picture.
There is one in place. It just isn't followed or used much - that would cost employers money. It needs to be better, but the best possible system won't help if it isn't used.
Fine the company a years net profit the first offense, 3 years the second and take the company on the third. See how well it is followed then!
You think not allowing "very low" wages will stop the illegals? Surely you know better than that!
Migrants fight their way across Europe to reach the UK. Why? Mainly because, like the US, there are a lot of low wage jobs the UK natives will not do.
In most Western European countries the unions ensure that bar workers, fast food workers and the unskilled etc etc are not on the starvation wages of the US and UK.
Most ordinary folks are happy to work in any industry that means they can raise a family without food stamps.
Essentially, dump supply-side economics (driving down wages and taxes), pick up on demand-side economics (driving the economy with consumer and government spending) and most of the US's current woes would disappear.
But the rich would suffer a little, and even a little is probably too much for the poor darlings to bear.
It sounds as if you're saying that if wages go up the illegals will refuse to work - they will only work for low wages. I don't find that argument particularly reasonable.
Lol. You are working at hard at not understanding the simple stuff. So I will spell it out (again).
Low wage jobs in the US, that no American will take, are the jobs that attract migrants. Many employers are pro-immigration because migrants are the only people willing to tolerate the wages and conditions those employers offer.
Tell me if you get this bit. And I will move onto stage 2 of the explanation.
Got it. I've watched construction gangs composed solely of Hispanic appearing, spanish speaking men. Men that run away when INS shows up. And companies that then hit the unemployment line and hire English speaking men to complete the job.
Will you now explain that the first group was not composed of illegals? That illegals never fill jobs that Americans will take? That it was all illusion, that the first group of spanish speaking hispanics were all naturalized citizens that had no fear of INS?
When you get that we can move to stage 2 of what it costs the country to support 20 million illegal citizens.
That's where arrest of the employer would be most helpful.
I see undocumented workers
1. doing yard work
2. selling fruit and vegetables
3. cleaning house
4. washing dishes in restaurants
5. standing around home improvement lots for day labor (helping someone for a day or two)
6. Doing agricultural work
Licensed contractors should be bound by law because they have to keep records and pay taxes.
I've never heard a construction worker complain about undocumented workers keeping them from getting jobs. The weather is a major factor. My family has generations of builders. They train their sons and then they train their sons.
If you have family in the construction industry, working as labor in that field, then I'm sure they have seen crews of illegals. It's so common as to be every job I worked on in the last half decade or so. Framing is popular, landscaping, sheetrock work and I hear (haven't seen) that they are entering my trade of electrician as well - the union is using them and providing the necessary training, paid for by the union membership to give their jobs away. Any trade that does not require a great deal of skill or training. If the rumors are true about the electrical unions, that's a switch - in the past it has been only those jobs that could be done with minimal training and electrician is not one of them.
Or maybe Idaho is the preferred state for illegals, although I would find that difficult to swallow.
I'm from Arkansas. When I grew up, 99.9% of the non-whites were Black people. I left in 1973 for California. Here I have met or encountered people from all over the world.
The Hispanic population is increasing in Arkansas. I don't know what %.
My family is well known for all trades in the construction industry in Pulaski County. I've never discussed undocumented labor with them. I am curious to find out.
I'll let you know!
"I've never heard a construction worker complain about undocumented workers keeping them from getting jobs."
The framers picketed one of the last jobs I was on for a couple of weeks, before INS showed up and there were suddenly a couple dozen job openings. I'd call that complaining, even though the official reason for the pickets was poor pay. (I heard, rumor mill, that that company went broke trying to fulfill their contract with union labor rather than illegals. I hope so.)
I'm sure leaning on employers is the most effective way to reduce undocumented labor.
That's my opinion, and one I expressed in a hub on illegal aliens, along with ideas on what to do with millions currently in the country. But we would have to lean hard enough to make it very costly - a fine that can be made up with extra profits from hiring illegals for a few months won't do the job.
Thought I'd point out (since I spent over a decade in construction) illegals played a heavy part in causing financial injury to legal workers. We contracted, almost exclusively, what were companies which were using mostly illegals (outside of the dirt work, electrical and plumbing trades). These guys skirted the law by carrying Worker's comp set up to only cover names of people on the site so that the work force was constantly changing and not directly employed through the manner we usually perceive employment. Was this right on our part? Legally, yes. They fulfilled all of our legal requirements to be subcontractors. But, I watched independent after independent fold in this environment. Hard working blue collar people who could not compete with a labor force who didn't need to meet the same income requirement to live a lower middle class to middle middle class life.
If I understand correctly, you were a general contractor. You hired subcontractors. The subcontractors employed undocumented worker crews that changed frequently. WC has length of employment requirements for covering people? You could not make it a requirement of the contract that all workers be citizens and/or registered aliens?
Blue collar workers were unable to live off the low wage accepted by undocumented workers employed by the subcontractors?
I've never been an employer so I'm not versed in employer requirements to carry WC.
"Blue collar workers were unable to live off the low wage accepted by undocumented workers employed by the subcontractors?"
Of course they can...if they will live 12 people in a 3 bed house, drive a clunker without insurance and live off welfare checks.
Out of curiosity, did you find the HVAC crews full of illegals? I agree with the dirt work (at least in the beginning; landscaping was a different matter), electrical and plumbing, but I don't recall many illegals in the HVAC trade, either.
Anecdotes can be instructive but they can also make you miss the larger picture.
Immigration is at an historic low in the US according to the measure of border apprehensions. As many Mexicans left the US last year as arrived according to research from Pew.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 … ehensions/
This is entirely down to fall out from the recession. If there are no jobs the migrants do not come, or they come but do not stay long.
So cut off the supply of jobs that Americans will not do and you would cut immigration. Boosting the minimum wage would be more effective than building a wall. This would force investors in the direction of high value job creation.
On the other hand, are you sure that you want this to happen? Immigration drives GDP growth. It supports industry and service providers.
As populations age, young people are going to be desperately needed to keep your country running and the US birthrate is not going to be enough.
Presuming you mean illegal border crossings rather than immigration (which requires certain actions that are not done), yes they are down. But not because of the recession - they edged up as the recession ended but dropped radically with the election of President Trump. On a side note you might want to question your sources a little more; limiting the data to Mexican migrants might be helpful in convincing someone of something that isn't true, but it certainly doesn't give a full picture of all the illegal border crossings. Only those from migrants (intending to return home in the near future) that are also of Mexican citizenship (eliminating a large number of other nationalities illegally crossing our southern border + nearly all people entering anywhere BUT that border) are being counted.
Can't say as there are any jobs Americans won't do; that is a myth perpetuated by those wanting a country full of illegals. On the other hand, there ARE jobs Americans won't do...for the price being offered. Illegally offered, I might add; some Americans work for minimum wage.
But cut off the job supply to illegal aliens and illegal border crossings will drop. So will the number of illegals in the country.
No, illegals do not drive GDP growth. Whatever gives you the quaint idea that having to support millions of illegals raises GDP? Yes, sales go up (groceries, rent, etc.) but so do taxes, leaving the average citizen worse off than he was before the influx of millions of illegals.
We may need a younger work force. Fine, make it through actual immigration, immigration of those that add something to the country beyond more bills to feed the hungry.
The ref for declining illegal immigration pre-dates Trump's election by a very long time.
And that it is down to the Great Recession mostly, plus improved job availability in Mexico and perhaps demographic changes (fewer young people).
Why do you find it hard to believe that if there are no jobs available, there will be very little illegal immigration?
Is it the fantasy that only criminals want to come to the US?
Anyway, the US right is determined to hang onto to its nation's misery. It will avoid looking at the real causes of economic problems and scapegoat foreigners at every opportunity.
That makes it about normal in an increasingly nationalistic and dangerous world.
"Why do you find it hard to believe that if there are no jobs available, there will be very little illegal immigration?"
Already answered in the earlier post: "But cut off the job supply to illegal aliens and illegal border crossings will drop."
Has it occurred to you that people entering a country illegally, in large numbers, have a negative effect on both the culture and the economics of that country? Perhaps, just maybe, that is one of the reasons more countries are becoming "increasingly nationalistic" - they are beginning to have the same problem the US does, and finding much the same results. Millions of illegals does NOT give rise to a peaches and cream situation, and at the end of it all cost far more than they supply.
No Will, we don't need to look to the wages aspect, just the work verification processes Credence2 mentions. Processes that are already supposed to be being enforced.
If that were the case, then the low-wages problem you mention would solve itself - because employers wouldn't have anyone that would accept those low wages. So if you want to bash "companies," bash them for non-compliance with the employment verification processes, not the fake evil of paying low wages.
YES! Obama went after corporations - oh nevermind *sigh*
PHX TRUMP: Build that wall. Now the obstructionist Democrats would like us not to do it. But believe me, if we have to close down our government, we're building that wall.
Did the Great Wall of China work? The exact number of people who died during the construction of the Great Wall of China is unknown; however, it is estimated that up to 1,000,000 people lost their lives.
"In the first 100 years of its existence, China was invaded three times. The enemy didn’t come over it or tunnel through it. But each time China was invaded, the enemy came through a gate left open for them. Those who guarded the gate had been bribed. While the people sat comfortably behind the security of the wall, they failed to teach their children integrity and patriotism. So they sold out to the enemy. And the enemy invaded their land." (John Maxwell -The Leader Within You).
Love this comment. Although I will say the quote made me think of how our government is slowly ensuring that the principles this nation was built on are disappearing. And, before you think I'm bashing liberals this is primarily referring to integrity, accountability and honest civil service.
Or is it" a better man"...I'm just a pore ole dirt farmer, GA.
"Now the obstructionist Democrats would like us not to do it, but believe me if we have to close down our government, we are building that wall." - Trump
For anyone interested in data here is a report on the contribution of immigration to the US economy:
http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpin … rdID=23550
The study found minor depression of wages among unskilled workers which, for me, would be the issue to address. The suffering of those in vulnerable economic groups gave you Trump and that is not something you want to see again.
As to the other effects, they can be summed up as: without immigration, economic growth would slide
Quote: 'Immigration is integral to the nation’s economic growth. The inflow of labor supply has helped the United States avoid the problems facing other economies that have stagnated as a result of unfavorable demographics...'
But read the whole report. Get a broader view.
Of course, what the report does not examine is the caustic effect of racism. Racism is the only real problem with immigration.
What ELSE it does not examine is the effect, and cost, of illegal aliens. Instead it lumps those people in with the million or so that immigrate each year.
But, for me, one of the glaring problems is that the jobs held by some 20 million illegal aliens does not affect the job numbers of citizens. Mathematically that does not seem possible; I'd really like to see how they figure that - do they just assume that those jobs would not be filled if the illegals weren't here?
Dunno where that 25 million comes from. The people who study the issue for a living reckon under 12 million, of which, half come from Mexico.
12 million = under 4 percent of the US population
I reckon this is a perception problem. Same thing in the UK. My mother is one among many who thinks the UK is being swamped by Romanians, lol.
And that is down to scare stories in the UK press. Fear sells papers.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 … om-mexico/
p.s. My mother now thinks Indian people are sort of OK since she has met a few, and they look after her in shops and hospitals rather a lot. Isn't that nice?
Actually, I've seen figures (yes, from reputable sources) ranging from 10M to 30M. That your particular choice gives 12 M doesn't mean any more than those I see.
Yes, it's a perception problem...particularly when a good deal of effort is made to hide it and the costs of it. As this article and your post do.
But tell me - how do YOU think the "no effect on job numbers" happens when unemployment is around 4% and 4% of the jobs go to illegal aliens? How do we reconcile those two facts?
More migrants = more consumers = more jobs.
Seems it's the second gen immigrants that really boost the economy, outperforming natives in school and job prospects. I would have a close look at your native pop if you want more growth.
Right! As those migrants send their earnings back home it creates more jobs...in that foreign country. And half of what they DO spend in the country comes from the tax base, which means there were no more job prospects. Unless you want to count extra teachers, cops, jailers, etc.?
"Second gen immigrants". My, we're really getting into the whole terminology thing, trying our best to spin everything into something it isn't. Hint: there ARE no "second gen immigrants": anyone born in the country is not an immigrant, and trying to use them to bolster false facts only shows the desperation of a failed program.
What in the world makes you think we would want more growth? Especially "growth" that flows out of the country?
Try reading the report. Think about the facts. Calm your worried mind.
People with mustaches are not going to steal your vegetables in the middle of the night.
Edit got to go out now and buy stuff. This involves a lot of pointing since I do not speak the language. Luckily, people are very patient with me, lol.
Not particularly interested in a report on immigrants OR on the now grown children of immigrants although I did skim through it looking for something to do with illegal aliens; the topic here.
I'm far more interested in the costs vs gains from the masses of illegal aliens that have invaded our country, and your article (and posts) seem to be trying their best to minimize and whitewash any costs at all while pretending it is all gain; that millions of illegal aliens are good for the nation.
Works very well, too...for those that unable to reason their way through the gobbledegook to the realization as just what is being done. Or too lazy to do so.
The conclusion of the report is that immigrants are key to economic growth. This doesn't mean that they do not bring problems but no solution to any problem (in this case labor shortage) is without problems itself.
You just fix each succeeding problem.
Or accept stagnation.
An alternative is to invest heavily in your existing population. Stop discarding so many individuals.
That may be (or might not). But either way, the mass of illegal aliens is not addressed and it is that which is both the topic and the problem. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that "immigration" refers to, or even primarily to, illegal aliens. It doesn't.
by Annsalo 3 years ago
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Arizona RepublicIt won't sit well with the "they's all illegals" crowd, but this is what effective, humane immigration policy sprouts from.
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