Once more Four teens charged in highway overpass murder. ?New Crime?
- ahorsebackposted 7 years ago
0Toledo Ohio , Four teens charged with throwing sandbags of a highway bridge and killing a passenger in a car passing beneath . I say "once more" because this crime seems to be a growing crime ? Over the years I have seen this a quite a few times .
Are our youth devolving in time and returning to more violent tendencies in spite of our modern day media spread , because of it ? Why ?Our youth has nothing to occupy its time. We won't let them work, and sports where everyone wins every time soon palls. Artistic pursuits could be followed, but they don't fit with the instant gratification we've taught the kids is necessary. That pretty much leaves sex and gangs...or throwing sandbags off bridges to watch the ensuing wrecks.
Oh man , it just keeps getting worse I fear . And then the system gets involved and turns them into even worse adults . I have to say , I am retreating further into the woods where the population drops considerably ,Wilderness.
Merry Christmas , happy happy !
I saw this, a vicious prank that cost lives.
Face it, Ahorseback, it ain't the media, it is modernity. You and I are contemporaries, brought up during the same period. At least for me at 13 years, there was no X-box, cell phones nor any of all the modern distractions. Everything moves so fast and kids are anxious and impatient, as they don't even have to wait for the hot dog to cook anymore. Too many of the kids cannot do basic arithmetic without the aid of calculators. Ask a young one how ones goes about doing long division, and see what they tell you? Chatting at a local market just the other day, one of the patrons said that their six year old kid wanted a cell phone. Thoughts went back to a time during my early teens when I was whacked over the head with the receiver of the land line phone if I were caught using it without permission.
The other part is the role of the parents. Generally under the age of 16, I consider all the kids juveniles exempt from capital punishment. I would charge the parents with dereliction of duty and because of their negligence, contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Whatever civil suits that result from this, the parents are to be subjects.The SC banned capital punishment as cruel and unusual punishment for those that committed such offenses before their 18th birthday. But that does not mean that sentences are not applicable within the juvenile corrections system to be extended to adult forms of incarceration when they reach the age of majority.
Parents: It is 11pm do you know where your children are? You better start paying more attentionOh good grief. Did no one do anything bad when you were children/teens?
“Too many of the kids cannot do basic arithmetic without the aid of calculators.”
Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back this up? Even if you do, what do you think not being able to do arithmetic without a calculator has to do with anything at all?
“Chatting at a local market just the other day, one of the patrons said that their six year old kid wanted a cell phone.”
Oh goodness, the horror! We all know cellphones (that probably only have wifi capabilities and parental controls) are the cause of humanity’s decline! Everything was totally fine before children got familiar with technology!
Based on these posts I’ll just come to the totally dramatic and sweeping generalization that you and your entire generation are judgmental narcissists who are afraid of things that are unfamiliar to them and I’ll be sure to harp on about it constantly. Sound fair?No, it is not fair, so what is with the burr in your saddle today?
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Oh good grief. Did no one do anything bad when you were children/teens?
Yes, but kids were generally kept on a tighter lease, but you might not know much about that as it is beyond your experience and probably before your time.
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“Too many of the kids cannot do basic arithmetic without the aid of calculators.”
I speak only from experience, I was a substitute teacher in San Bernardino, CA in 1981. The school administrators were handing out inexpensive calculators to 7 and 8 years old grade school students as part of the curriculum. I commented to the principal of my opinion that a calculator was something that is used only after you are able to conceptualize quantities and numbers with the calculator on your shoulders. That ability was clearly not evident from what I gleaned during my time with the students.
The subject was about how things have changed with youth and being a kid or a preteen today, I was just pointing out some of the changes opined by the author of the thread.
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“Chatting at a local market just the other day, one of the patrons said that their six year old kid wanted a cell phone.”
Oh goodness, the horror! We all know cellphones (that probably only have wifi capabilities and parental controls) are the cause of humanity’s decline! Everything was totally fine before children got familiar with technology!
Everything that is new is not always better!! As a parent, I need to have as much control over what my charges have access to, since I am responsible for their training and behavior, and, I should add, their misbehavior as well. I don't know about you, but giving a preteen a cell phone with full internet access and not knowing where they are going or with whom they are in communication with is a formula for disaster.
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Based on these posts I’ll just come to the totally dramatic and sweeping generalization that you and your entire generation are judgmental narcissists who are afraid of things that are unfamiliar to them. Sound fair?
No, it is not fair, you need to reassess what I just told you.....“Kids were generally kept on a tighter lease, but you might not know much about that as it is beyond your experience and probably before your time”
Okay, since I don’t much about it please enlighten me. How were kids kept on a tighter leash? What evidence do you have to support that?
“The subject was about how things have changed with youth and being a kid or a preteen today, I was just pointing out some of the changes opined by the author of the thread.”
Mmm, nope, the subject was about youth devolving and you came in hot claiming modernity was the problem, using arithmetic with calculators as an example. Please explain to me how you think that makes today’s youth worse than youth in your day. Do you think that perhaps once upon a time a bunch of older adults sat around criticizing kids for not knowing how to churn their own butter? Saying they have it way too easy and it’s a shame? No, everything new is not always better... just as it not always worse.
“As a parent, I need to have as much control over what my charges have access to, since I am responsible for their training and behavior, and, I should add, their misbehavior as well. I don't know about you, but giving a preteen a cell phone with full internet access and not knowing where they are going or with whom they are in communication with is a formula for disaster.”
As a modern parent, I completely agree. But you said nothing of this in your original comment about the cellphone. You were talking about a six year old wanting one and implying once again that somehow this is inherently bad without explaining why. It seems that your issue with cellphones is the potential lack of parental supervision but that problem exists with literally anything. So I have to assume that once again you’re under the impression that permissive parenting is more common today than it was when you were growing up. And I’ll ask you again to provide me with some substantial evidence of that, otherwise you’re just ranting based on conjecture.Am I ranting or is it that you simply don't want to listen or pay attention?
Okay, since I don’t much about it please enlighten me. How were kids kept on a tighter leash? What evidence do you have to support that?
The first bit of evidence, my dear, is that I LIVED through the period Ahorseback and I refer to..
For one example, neighborhoods were more closely knit, if I was caught throwing rocks, or taking rhubarb from the neighbors patch, you can bet that anyone one of the immediate neighbors who knew us and the family would call our parents to tell them, then we were in trouble.
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“The subject was about how things have changed with youth and being a kid or a preteen today, I was just pointing out some of the changes opined by the author of the thread.”
Mmm, nope, the subject was about youth devolving and you came in hot claiming modernity was the problem, using arithmetic with calculators as an example. Please explain to me how you think that makes today’s youth worse than youth in your day. Do you think that perhaps once upon a time a bunch of older adults sat around criticizing kids for not knowing how to churn their own butter? Saying they have it way too easy and it’s a shame? No, everything new is not always better... just as it not always worse.
The point that I was making was the changes were not the result of the media, at least not solely. Kids are exposed to everything and anything today, that was not true when I was growing up. So many sources contradicts what it is you try to train and teach, the worse we had was "Gilligan's Island" on television. Without parental controls and guidance, kids can only become worse, not better.
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As a modern parent, I completely agree. But you said nothing of this in your original comment about the cellphone. You were talking about a six year old wanting one and implying once again that somehow this is inherently bad without explaining why.
I did not think that I needed to elaborate with the explanation, but I am delighted to make the reason clear to you. But, you can see what any parent's concern should be in this case, do you not?
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It seems that your issue with cellphones is the potential lack of parental supervision but that problem exists with literally anything.
Yes, it is inherently involved in everything, but there is a difference between playing with a peashooter and a .38 special. With the modern technology it becomes that much easier for parents to lose control. I gave you an example earlier why parenting was less permissive 2 generations ago.
-------------------------------------------------------------------I’ve been listening to the older generations complain about “kids these days” since I was a kid.
Your personal experience is not really evidence of anything for two reasons, “my dear”: the first being that while you lived through it, you yourself were a child and children’s memories are notoriously unreliable (I can link you to a bunch of research on this if you’d like). The second is that you have not lived through being a child in today’s world and therefore your comparisons not only come from very different perspectives and times in your life, but you lack the experience that I have (or kids today have) and so there’s no real comparison at all. And for what it’s worth the example that you gave still happened when I was a kid and still happens today as I’ve told many other parents when their kids were misbehaving out of their view.
Kids are not exposed to “anything and everything” if their parents aren’t allowing them to be and even when it slips through the cracks I imagine kids have always found ways to see and do things that they’re too young to see and do. My mom and her siblings have plenty of stories about getting into things beyond their parents’ control in the 60s and 70s. I found a way in the 90s. Kids find ways today.
There was “modern technology” that existed when you were a child that did not exist when previous generations were children and you seem to think that you still had a splendid childhood and came out just fine, no?I’ve been listening to the older generations complain about “kids these days” since I was a kid.
Your personal experience is not really evidence of anything for two reasons, “my dear”: the first being that while you lived through it, you yourself were a child and children’s memories are notoriously unreliable (I can link you to a bunch of research on this if you’d like). The second is that you have not lived through being a child in today’s world and therefore your comparisons not only come from very different perspectives and times in your life, but you lack the experience that I have (or kids today have) and so there’s no real comparison at all. And for what it’s worth the example that you gave still happened when I was a kid and still happens today as I’ve told many other parents when their kids were misbehaving out of their view.
It has to be most presumptuous of you at the height of arrogance to talk about my childhood memories during a period in which I grew up and lived, when you were not even born yet???? I am neither, deaf, blind or dumb, Aime? What is your level of expertise to support all these outrageous assertions of yours? I don't have to be a child today to have interacted with children, and having eyes to see I am aware of what is going on. The example I gave may have happened in these modern times, but no where near as prevalent as it was then. I just have to look at my current city block to view the relative indifference we have toward what it is the neighbor kids were doing.
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Kids are not exposed to “anything and everything” if their parents aren’t allowing them to be and even when it slips through the cracks I imagine kids have always found ways to see and do things that they’re too young to see and do. My mom and her siblings have plenty of stories about getting into things beyond their parents’ control in the 60s and 70s. I found a way in the 90s. Kids find ways today.
I am not saying that parents are innately irresponsible today. I am saying that many are. Yet, even if the circumstances regarding behavior of parents and children over the differing time periods can be said to be no different, the technology makes 'anything and everything' possible today, while when I was growing up the technology simply did not exist.
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There was “modern technology” that existed when you were a child that did not exist when previous generations were children and you seem to think that you still had a splendid childhood and came out just fine, no?
Yes, this is correct in a relative sense, my dear departed Auntie and I spoke about her understanding of technical changes in society during the last full decade of her life, the early 1980's. She was born in 1899. She spoke of the 1960's, the rock and roll music, the boogie woogie over the radio and television which she spoke of as moral turpitude. Sixties commercial TV which was almost comically tame by current standards. She spoke of those unwashed hippies, and said that the Roaring Twenties and the Flappers were not to the same extreme.
Yes, it is futile to castigate succeeding generations, every generation does the same to the next. It is just like a dog chasing its own tail. Yes, I had a ok childhood, my point is that my aunt made out ok as she was growing up the 1910's, with neither radio nor television, There were simply not as many disharmonious voices with messages contrary to those that her parents and positive peers wanted to impart to her. So, it was easier to stay on the straight and narrow, not guaranteed but easier.
Technology is a wonderful thing, who would of believed that I would have access to a medium as a compendium of the sum of human knowledge. But there is the dark side of that coin, having that vast information available at the touch of a telephone for children, opens a world that you would just assumed stay closed at least until you could properly prepare them. For example, the worse we prepubescent boys could get into was finding our father's latest copy of Playboy in his bedroom closet. Now there is HD pornographic video available to all from the satellites in the sky. So whatever it is that we not supposed to be doing now has the potential of being multiplied by a factor of infinity.I’m not speaking of your childhood memories at all, I’m saying children’s memories are unreliable. Not just yours, but mine as well, and everyone else’s.
I’m also not making any outrageous assertions, all I’m saying really is that you can not compare your own childhood as you remember it to the childhood of someone today, at least not objectively or factually. Unless you’ve managed to live as a child in today’s world you are not getting the same picture as you did when you were a child yourself, you see only tiny snippets of their lives. Your eyes and all of your other senses do not give you the whole picture of someone else’s life, or the lives of an entire generation, as you are but one man with his own biases and experiences clouding perception. You are, of course, free to form your own opinions and draw on your own experiences to come to whatever conclusions you would like. But those don’t count as evidence to anyone but yourself.
I think that you are definitely right about technology having both wonderful and frightening sides. The same relates to kids of course, they have access to so much knowledge and the opportunities are endless... but there’s also a lot of bad stuff that’s pretty easily accessible. That’s not the fault of the kids or the parents directly though, is it? Just a pro and a con of growing up in this particular time. And I’m not sure how that relates to specific bad behaviours and/or if the bad behaviour by kids today is really any worse than it was however many years ago. I notice that ahorseback keeps taking about statistics but not actually showing us any (I could google but there’s no saying I’m looking at the same statistics).
Whooeeee, what a hoot! And to think we are also contemporaries Cred.
"Yes, but kids were generally kept on a tighter lease, but you might not know much about that as it is beyond your experience and probably before your time."
Maybe in your world. In mine, (after eight or nine years old), it was out of the house in the morning and back in at dark. Not a very tight leash at all, the way I see it.
And even though I agree with your "arithmetic" thoughts, I'm with Amie on this one. What the hell does that have to do with this thread's OP?
Your cell phone comment, when paired with your parental responsibility thoughts leaves me reeling.... never heard of parental controls, GPS phone locator apps, parents looking at phone records, history and data usage. Geesh! That sounds like common sense parental responsibility to me.
But of course you must be right. I didn't get a cell phone until my 30s, (or there abouts), and my son didn't get his until he was sixteen. Now eight and nine year olds are getting them... Heaven help us. *snark, snark, snark....* ;-)
GA
Aime , Part of what you are saying is fair , If social media is controlled , time-wise , if personal phone time is controlled , game time is limited , there is not much wrong if moral discipline and personal accountability is instilled in child raising . But THAT is the problem today , cell phones , video games , TV , social media are THE baby-sitters today , bad behavior ad "punkism " is one of the latest cultural fads .
Narcissism is for the" social media "offspring of today ,however . AND NO , we did things as kids but throwing sandbags off a bridge ? That is just a bit wee too violent for us to have done as kids.
No excuses there .
Credence ,Hey! We actually agree ! You couldn't have said this better . I was just thinking that most times as a kid , I'm 63 , we didn't have a TV . No love loss there for me , even today I watch very little and when I do I am a good movie guy . I agree ,we need to actually hold parents responsible for what they are dong ,where they are at all times and who their kids hanging with .
I really do believe it's extremely sad , I grew up with both parents in the house , messed up as it was at times and think that we as baby- boomer age parents failed miserably in instilling good values , morals and ethics into our kids lives . It is our generations fault. Today , no religion , social media , one parent home , latch -key kids , where does it end ?
Believe it or not ,I am however impressed with many ,many, many of our young people though .We are at the same place at the same time,
I remember being furious with the murders committed by Klebold and Harris in the Columbine High massacre in Littleton, CO in 1999, not far from where I was living at the time.
How did minor children obtain the weapons?
Neither of the parents knew that one of the boys had a semi-auto concealed under the bed?
The noise from the lathe in the garage where one of the boys was fashioning a sawed-off shotgun.
Parents that were asleep at the switch?
The neighborhood pressure on both parents of the killers were so great that they had to move away..
Kids have been throwing rocks and stuff of overpasses since before I was born, and maybe one time in a 100 it kills people. Nothing new about it.
Yea , lets just except it and move on ? I was googling stat's on teen violence , in general dropping overall but categorically rising in area's of drugs , theft , sexually , gangs, stuff like that . Are we as a culture just getting complacent ?
The bridge crime is relatively a new one I think , 30 years or so , or media is just sensationalizing .
Oh yes, young people are terrible. Much worse than they’ve ever been. Time to take away their voting rights and keep reminding them how terrible they are. That oughta help.
I understand your bitterness in acceptance , you are young and don't want to face it for one and two , you can't see or accept the facts because of your youth . There are youth cultural statistics in the US right now that are worse than ever , inner city drug/gang violence for one , unguided and fatherless homes for two , inner city minority crime stats for three . Part of America's youth culture is feeding upon itself , but go ahead , look the other way and naively bury your head in the sand all you want , facts don't lie .
Oh I’m not that young, I certainly wouldn’t be considered a “youth.”
Can you link me to some of those statistics? I’d be interested to see how they collect the data and how far it goes back.Aime , We today don't need statistics to recognize poor parenting , the evidence is everywhere , I watch families a lot and see obvious behavior problems forming or already in existence ,in restaurants for one where kids wander freely , screaming , yelling , running , How about in schools where silence and discipline is non-existent ,
Young have very few attained good manners , public behavior generally sucks , .
Today good manners is the exception not the rule , If I see a kid WITHOUT a cell phone surgically attached to their head ? it's a good sign ........seen any lately?I mean, as long you’re aware that this is your opinion and not an objective “fact” like I believe you attempted to say earlier, then I won’t argue with you.
Well there you go ! You have all our opinions about child rearing all figured out . There are however some of us who don't need child raising facts , it comes natural .
When you have children ; and one day you no doubt will and see that six year old in the back seat on a phone with friends while your frustrating about no decent communication ;....................think back on this ? Will you.*snort*
I have a six year old. Like, right now. She’s building LEGO 10ft away from me.
She would have absolutely no clue how to call or text her friends on a cellphone and I have not seen or heard of her friends having cellphones that receive calls/texts anyway.
So thank you for your concern but given that I actually have some pretty close experience with six year olds at this exact moment I’m gonna say I’m a lot more familiar with what concerns actually exist and not the hypoethical ones you’ve conjured up.Congratulations , you've managed to turn the conversation to you , now shall we talk about the your normalization of kids killing drivers throwing stuff off bridges . Or would you rather play Lego's .
Hahahaha.
You were the one who made it about me and your attempt at being condescending totally failed so now you’re lashing out.
I’m teaching my daughter that it’s okay to make mistakes and it’s better to own them and apologize rather than be defensive and make things worse. Part of that awful modern parenting, you know, because clearly your parents didn’t do the same.
Teens do dumb shit that goes horribly wrong, old people panic about "kids these days" and blame poor morals or whatever--this story goes back to at least ancient Rome.
Psycheskinner , No kidding ......really ? Well then ... there must be something behind that .
I know , I know.... just some good boys wilding -out ?That sums it up nicely. I think people tend to romanticize their own upbringings as well.
So let's all stand and point all the fingers somewhere , anywhere but at the problem .
Oh no, you see I think we actually have the same idea of what “the problem” is - negligent, permissive, or authoritarian parents that don’t nurture their children properly mixed with adolescents who have very poor risk management/perception and impulse control.
The difference is that I don’t believe this is a problem that exists only with modern parenting/kids. I think it’s been a problem for as long as parents and children have existed.Unnn Huh ! Take a look at a few inner city American crime statistics and tell us that it's just a normal child activity . Chicago would be a good place to begin . I will never romanticize my own upbringing , it wasn't much worth romanticizing but there was very little inherent family or culturally provided evil , not near as much as there is today.
-I never heard of drive by shootings except in Al Capone movies. Today they happen daily in Chicago .
Shame on those forces which are always attempting to shut down the free-will of the youth. If there are no constructive avenues for kids to take, they will take destructive ones. They will not just sit in one place being "good."
Shame on those forces which do not enforce common sense boundaries or show children how to guide themselves toward noble goals and fruitful endeavors.
… and shame on those forces which scheme to take away liberty through over taxation and restrict the free-market with increasing regulations, fines, and fees.
Those forces are the adults who care nothing for the up and coming generations ... sometimes referred to as posterity.Tighter leash? Ha ha ha. My parents hadn't any real idea where I was pretty much all of the time as I ran around town with a pack of other children. It is only by luck i didn't drown in the river, die falling out of a tree or a 100 other dumb things. Before cell phones and pedophile-panic that was pretty much the norm.
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