Did Right-wing Conspiracy Theories Spark Killing of US Census Worker?

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Leta Sposted 13 years ago
http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/census-wor … id=8677271

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/opinions … ories-1125
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  atomswifeyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes and the UFO conspiracy theories have sparked the killing and mutilations of hundreds of dairy cows.
  
  LOL
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rebekahELLEposted 13 years ago
I heard this on the news earlier. it's a mad mad world~~~
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Madame Xposted 13 years ago
That's what they'd like us all to think anyway.
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A Texanposted 13 years ago
Why don't you wait for the facts to come out? Or are you in a hurry for another Tawana Brawley type case?
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Did ABC new 'wait'? Did the Atlantic? Did the AP? Did the LA Times? Did the New York Times? Did any of the 2,308 other sources reporting the story out there do so?
  
  http://news.google.com/news/story?q=cen … p;resnum=1
  
  Facts are released as they are released. Discussion is just that.
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  rebekahELLEposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  it's terrible, and will be very interesting to see how this develops. very disturbing to see what is happening.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Have they asked in their reporting of this death if "Right wing conspiracies" are the cause? Are they even implying that "right wingers" are involved, if they are then they are just as irresponsible as you are!
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It really would help if you read and interpreted the links provided. This really is the problem.
  
  And of course, all these journalist's jobs certainly are on the line. Why, ABC news! Fire the lot of 'em. That Dianne Sawyer!
  
  omg
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Typical, hand the responsibility of your post title off to someone else.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  omg, you kill me. lolololo Yeah. It's my responsibility, when I post links...to do the reading and interpretation FOR you.
  
  No. I'm actually looking to engender actual DISCUSSION. Have to wait for LDT...Nickny (if he ever shows up again) for the right...Daniel Carter, Don W., MightyMom, SweetiePie for the moderate and/or liberal side...among a few others.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What exactly is your malfunction? The title is Did Right wing conspiracies spark the killing of US census worker? Who else but you is asking that question? If the media is then they are just as biased as you! Do you not understand that?
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Do you understand what discussion is? Beyond 2 bit 2 sentence assumptions? Do you understand headlines? Do you understand hypothesis/theses? Do you understand that 2,308 articles have been written in the last 2 days by people of varying viewpoints? Do you understand (obviously) that more people than me are asking these questions?
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Lets discuss the possibility that a "Left wing" group did this, how bout Code Pink,PETA,ACLU, anybody and everybody should be a suspect. But I'm sure your vast experience in Investigations will lead you right to the culprit!
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Classic strawman. And silly to boot.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Its silly to look for answers? Let the investigation lead to wherever it leads, you and this title automatically determine who is responsible, thats silly!
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The title of this thread does just that - interpret.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It asks an interpretive question. So, what I'm asking is...does anyone care to interpret? Beyond obvious, boring assertions?
  
  Like, paragraphs? Yes, no, maybe, a little? Totally, no? Different thing all together, etc.? Um, like Walrus offered a point of view?
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  jiberishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Funny how ABC jumped right on this to blame the conspirators, but coundn't run one story about Acorn....
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Such journalism should be rewarded!
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  nicompposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Don't bring that up, you racist.
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ralwusposted 13 years ago
The Daniel Boone National Forest is rife with marijuana growers. Maybe they got him and that's why he had Feds carved on his belly.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  hee hee
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And meth lab producers as well. Many of which espouse anti-government sentiments. Do I hear a hehe?
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Have you ever seen a meth lab? Have you seen Cooks? I have, I have arrested many a doper and none were members of the Republican party!
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Flightkeeperposted 13 years ago
It is all speculation at this point. It could be some leftist idiot trying to blame the right wing like that person who trashed the Democrat office in order to blame the Republicans.
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ralwusposted 13 years ago
Well, my family hales from that part of the country, and people don't go around there certain times, and this being the 'season' it can be quite dangerous. Park Rangers are very wary. The growers don't give a hoot who you are or what your politics are. If you are in their part of the woods, your history. He was a fed. We will have to wait and see how this story plays out. No hee hee from me, it's not funny at all. Just another point of view.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry ralwus - I thought you were joking. I didn't know that about that Forest.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Now the revenue man wanted Grandaddy bad
  He headed up the holler with everything he had
  It's before my time but I've been told
  He never came back from Copperhead Road"
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  rebekahELLEposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  well said, no, it's not funny at all.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for the real post.
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  dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Living in Rural Tennessee, I have to agree with Ralwus. I have ridden back trails in the Blue Ridge, and when they ask you to leave... they mean it! The cash Crop is serious business, weither you are political or not does not matter there. Anyone asking questions is suspect when you are there. It really could be that is what happend.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. You and Ralwus added a dimension to this that I didn't see in a the articles I read. It adds to the understanding...possibly.
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Madame Xposted 13 years ago
Anyone who runs a meth lab would be anti-government, don't you think?

Non sequitor.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Funny how that outlaw thing works
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ralwusposted 13 years ago
Well, sorta like that. Only these guys are a lot worse and I'm sure the Forest is full right now of Feds searching for the dope. No way would I venture in there. seriously folks.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Have the same problem in Texas with the Speed labs, this is another type of criminal and not just some political whack job! If the investigation leads to a Right winger then so be it, but to even mention who might be involved will limit the investigation.
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What was that guy doing there? I would assume that the locals would tell the census takers not to go there at this time of year.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds like a set up. Fed gets murdered. Blame goes to what group? And why? Then everyone thinks in a certain direction.
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  On point. It would also distract the law from the growers.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nicely put.
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rebekahELLEposted 13 years ago
here's where her Lita's headline came from if you read the atlantic.com article.

Dead Census Worker Sparks Debate Over Conspiracy Theories
By Max Fisher on September 24, 2009 11:47am
The FBI is investigating the death of census worker Bill Sparkman, who was found hanging from a tree in Kentucky with the word "fed" scrawled across his chest. The presence of an anti-government slur is already sparking a debate over whether right-wing conspiracy-theorizing is becoming irresponsible. Paranoia about the census had been spread by a handful of conservative leaders, including Congresswoman Michele Bachmann, who suggested she would not be completing the census because it could be used to establish internment camps like those constructed for Japanese-Americans during World War II.

and the article goes on.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thats my point, that is why it took the truth so long to come out in the Tawana Brawley case, they were looking for suspects that did not exist!
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am sure that the investigators are doing their jobs and limiting their press contacts as they see fit.
  
  OH, heck, we just had a suicide at the hotel part of the business I work for. Yep, we limit/control what we give to the press... just fyi, ie.
  
  I don't think a discussion here...or even in the national media is going to hinder an intelligent, qualified investigation by the FBI or the locals, for that matter. Do you? Do you think the FBI is going to take into consideration Hubpage posts?
  
  omg
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. And that headline was actually elegantly constructed..."Sparks," "Sparkman."
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Leta Sposted 13 years ago
Since some cannot be bothered to open or read links, this is among the discussion of the day:

"Leaders Enable the Anti-Government Fringe Alex Koppelman wrote that paranoia has always existed on the fringe, but conservative leaders who encourage their fear are bringing them to the forefront. "There are always people who have some sort of paranoia about the federal government and the census, but things might be worse this time around," he wrote. "There's been a lot of talk on the right about the connection (always very tenuous, and now severed) between the census and ACORN, a group that's been conservatives' favorite bogeyman of late. And Rep. MicheleBachmann, R-Minn., has been spreading her own fears about the census, at one point even suggesting a link between the census and Japanese internment during World War II -- a frightening parallel for modern conspiracy theorists who fear that the government is setting up similar camps for them now."

It certainly is not "my title" and my little post alone, oh, my. omg

You simply prove my point with every post you continue.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The article and you are equally irresponsible, theories and bias will lead to this type of nonsense. It could be a Right Wing group that is responsible or maybe even the Black Panthers. Lita for someone who wants a discussion you aren't saying anything.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, she is. She's implying it was a right wing group or fanatic that murdered the guy. Otherwise she would have picked another link to another article that went in another direction.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you had actually opened the link, and READ, you might see something else.
  
  omg jeez, you guys! Scary.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I did read it. But you had "2,308 articles have been written in the last 2 days by people of varying viewpoints" to choose from.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ABC news was the general post.
  
  The Atlantic did an in depth discussion and break down of the words of the day, including various viewpoints, from the discussion of Bachmann's 'irresponsible' conspiracy theories...to a request for caution in the investigations.
  
  You must have skimmed over things in order to paint with a very broad brush. Why does that not surprise me?
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  OMG,LOL, that is what is scary, do you have anything of substance to say? Anything?
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  For you? Good luck with those antelopes, .
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Those native to Texas antelopes that your Texan says exists? I would need luck in finding one!
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I thought they were called jackelopes
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ad hominem... (?) Or, I don't even know if one could call it that. Is this an argument? Or just a cutesy wootsey?
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The question mark should clue you in.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This thread isn't about that. It's about getting the idea out there that it was, or could have been, some right wing nut that is now murdering people because of their silly politics. After all, the government is your friend.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I know and you know, but she is convinced she is on a logical course because she read it in the paper. I even bet she thinks the FBI will conduct the murder investigation.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sure The Atlantic thinks it is the "logical course." As well as every other news outlet in the country. (What does that mean, anyway? Do you know?)
  
  If you read the papers, , you'd know what the FBI was called in to investigate.
  
  Good luck with those antelopes, .
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The Atlantic thinks its a logical course, and because they do you think so to? Do you have any opinions of your own?
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  She stated her opinion in her choice of headline.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are correct! How foolish of me
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ad hominem. It's all over the media. Anything more to say?
  
  No? Good luck with those antelopes, .
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You go from one ridiculous position "to win" to another. It's quite illogical, not conducive to discussion, and absolutely IS ad hominem.
  
  If you have nothing more to say than to attack my supposed "lack of opinion and/or understanding," it might be in your better interests to post on one of the other threads. There are many lib/con food fights (mainly started by your ilk) that are now available, .
  
  ...Nor, actually, am I interested in further engaging you in this very, very enlightening discussion. I will wait for some other posters.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Then quit responding! That is the easiest thing to do. But we can discuss things on this forum just as you can, you don't own the copyright or the forum do you?
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Could it be that I am using you as a demonstration, ?
  
  Ya think?
  
  And absolutely, you do have a right to your "little" posts.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What would you be demonstrating your lack of knowledge concerning Homicide Investigations or your bias? Or both?
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong. A legitimate question is being asked. And yes. It is that the right wing wingnuts MAY have gone too far. This stoking of anti-government sentiments with irresponsible inflammatory rhetoric. IS it the possible reason for the murder? Are other acts of violence to be expected?
  
  We are living in a scary time.
  
  But I find neither of you, frankly, worthy discussion partners. Just IMHO.
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A Texanposted 13 years ago
What you are actually wanting is people to agree with your question to validate yourself, Sad!
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, as I stated, I want substantive debate. You are not it.
  
  They will come. They just don't hang on the computer as much as the rest...of you. lol
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A Texanposted 13 years ago
A real homicide investigator would start with the background of the victim and go from there, you obviously would start with an article you read in the paper and limit your investigation. I guess its a good thing you write or whatever it is you do.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Too ridiculous.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah I thought reading an article and posting a biased question was ridiculous also, but whatever.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, em. Do journalists, uh, write, too? Huh?!
  
  By the way (and this is my ad hominem for the night),, you know the grammatical way you express yourself actually counts in the meaning of what you express. So, you might want to try this:
  
  "Yeah, I thought reading an article and posting a biased question was ridiculous, also. But, whatever."
  
  Note the proper use of commas and the end of your run-on sentence habit.
  
  Good night there, Tex.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nicely done, you sure don't dispute the meaning of the post, but you got your ad hominem in.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And you do over, and over, and over, and over, and over. So boring.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And you respond over, and over, and over, why don't you just not.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Because your words are SO pathetic. I don't want them ending my thread. Why don't you go off to one of yours?
  
  And btw, it should be: And you respond over, and over, and over. Why don't you just NOT?
  
  Note the use of proper punctuation and emphasis. I'm sure this is more along the lines of what you intended.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is that a personal attack? Speaking of that did TK get banned again? Anybody?
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  He probably just got tired of hearing about laundry
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No. That is a suggestion that I do not find your "argument" all that.
  
  A personal attack is when you say someone should kill themselves, or you hate them, or call them names, like slug, whore, bitch...what have you.
  
  See, there is a difference.
  
  And TK got banned again for a number of reasons; a number of people. All valid.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Really? How would you know?
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I was the one who slightly forced the forum rules to be changed.
  
  I also was on the receiving end of one of the attacks. As was an Indian hubber.
  
  Simple, really. Don't harass people, don't call them names like 'whore' 'hag,' or 'bitch.' Actually have an argument and something to say...no matter what political affiliation. (And TK's attacks were not on political posts.)
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for the definition of personal attack. we know you have never done any of those things, if you feel threatened by the written word then maybe you should quit reading.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, actually, I haven't.
  
  And I believe you are threatened by the written word. That's why you write so few of them with so little meaning, IMHO.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have seen what you have said to other people deny it all you want but you have done it!
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's a very irrational statement...from the person who told me I should "go kill myself." I'm very sorry. I just don't find your conversation that interesting, Tex.
  
  I do like debate. That is why I mentioned several hubbers I find to be good debaters much earlier. I personally find this kind of conversation to be boring. Sorry about it, but it is a fact.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Its a true statement irregardless who it came from.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  BTW, it should read:
  
  "Thanks for the definition of 'personal attack.' We know you have never done any of those things. If you feel threatened by the written word, then maybe you should quit reading."
  
  That cleans up the grammar. Of course the lack of substantive meaning is still present.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks mom!
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I agree. Attacking abilities would go on that list
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You said it, ma'am. Are you a bit guilty of that one? As should personal references about laundry, stalking activities, etc.
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  girly_girl09posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is that HP's official definition? It's not the one I was raised with or have come to know. While yes, those things you mentioned above are personal attacks, also attacking character, integrity, abilities, etc. are also all forms of personal attacks...I am positive of this much.
  
  Just saying!
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, GG, I wrote a hub on the letter vs. the spirit of the law (and/or rules). I differ with Hubpages interpretation of what is permissible. But I would say, yes, a personal attack in their eyes is calling someone a very nasty name.
  
  And several here have called people here by those names, and to my way of thinking (though it is spirit based and not literal) much worse. But this is not my business.
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Madame Xposted 13 years ago
I guess it's laundry time.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No she is waiting on other intellectuals with a vast knowledge of homicide investigation to join her. Then they will proceed to delude themselves with their superiority.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Intellectuals of ALL stripes are preferred. Just my preference. They have good discussion points. Sorry that is offensive, I guess...to you?
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, actually...do you want the intimate details, "Ma'am?"
  
  Then be quiet. With the laundry bit. We cannot all hang on the computer 24/7 like you.
  
  Ad hominem...and, utterly, utterly expected from you and ridiculous. Yawn.
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Here it is!
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Mishaposted 13 years ago
Do antelopes do laundry?
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ask Pam. She coined the phrase in her article on how to kill free speech.
  
  Heck. We might as just plan on entertaining the jackals. I think they are bored...I do.
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A Texanposted 13 years ago
Attacking abilities is just what she does to feel superior, I do not care what she thinks, my abilities have led me places she can only dream of going. Insecurities are a damnable thing!
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And I'm not interested. I expressed that previously.
  
  I expressed I was not interested in ad hominem. But that is all you offer. ALL.
  
  OF COURSE you were not suggesting any lack of abilities on my part with the inability to have my own opinion or to understand bias, right?
  
  Ridiculous.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No your title suggested your inability to form your own opinion and understand bias.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I'm positive you knew (know) exactly what you're doing.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, my. Ma'am. I'm certain The Atlantic and ABC News did, too.
  
  omg
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SweetiePieposted 13 years ago
I try to stay out of these things, but you know I noticed Lita was attacked early on this thread. People keep making references to how people do not have thoughts of their own because they read periodicals or papers. Really? Could it just maybe be people read a certain article, and are able to reach their own conclusions based on that. Or should we just all grab a sign and declare Obama a socialist because "we do not feel right about him".
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The only thing she was called on was her implication that it was a right winger with not much to back her up. And if she did reach that as a "conclusion" why ask it in the form of a question? If someone posts a certain thing and invites "discussion" they should be prepared to hear not only both sides, but to have their real intentions exposed. This isn't a kindergarten.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That IS the discussion of the day. Those were the headlines. You two offer NOTHING but throwing of grapes and olives and laundry in a lib/con food fight. Nothing. No debate. Just ad hominem over and over. You are right. This is not kindergarten.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, we offered other suspects, you don't want other suspects.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I would prefer intelligent debate...in paragraphs, from a smart opposition, someone with a nuanced approach, someone to engage the question. Neither of you offer anything of the kind.
  
  I see nothing of substance in anything you post. Sorry.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The question has no substance just bias, that should end the discussion.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  In my PERSONAL opinion, you offer nothing of substance. Period.
  Sorry.
  
  And please tell that to the thousands of others discussing this issue; writing about it. Maybe they will listen to you. Maybe not.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just can't admit it, huh?
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  All these several posting are interested in is the literal lib/con food fight, SP. It is frustrating.
  
  We had a couple good debate nights, but a few are coming back from being banned. You are right to keep out of these things at the moment.
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I really have no energy for it anymore really. Just because they think they are so right, certainly does not make it so. If anything I think their needing to be in a group to back each other up shows the insecurity. I will always enjoy reading your posts here.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  They just don't offer ANYTHING of substance. And I was going to leave this a while ago. But of course, the taunts of "laundry."
  
  Thanks, SP.
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Mishaposted 13 years ago
So you don't know if antelopes do laundry? Pity. I hoped you would. You know so much about them. Uh-oh, will go ask Pam then, thanks for the tip.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  She wrote it best, and then some, .
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A Texanposted 13 years ago
I have never written the word laundry on hubpages, but you constantly bring up antelope. Pot/Kettle?
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  To clue you in: The antelope reference means... For heaven sakes, just please read Pam Grundy's hub.
  
  You know, she refuses to post here because of posters such as those posting here tonight:
  
  http://hubpages.com/hub/How-to-Kill-Free-Speech
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Like your hubs I have no interest in reading Pgrundy, none,zilch,zero,nada!
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girly_girl09posted 13 years ago
I think some folks would be surprised to learn the actual definition and variations of ad hominem attacks. They are rampant on here, from almost everyone. At least in the political forums and probably the religion forums, too. This is why I am staying away; there is no point in ever stating my political opinion on here (for several reasons, I suppose). It always reverts back to my personal reasons for doing so, in an attempt to discredit my viewpoints, opinions and facts presented. Yes, it does get frustrating, but it goes both ways.

g2g bed...2 am here (oops!)

goodnight hp!
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Posting the original question in the way it was posted invited precisely the kind of questions and comments that resulted here. If the original post was
  
  "Did Left-wing Conspiracy Theories Spark Killing of US Census Worker?"
  
  I believe many of those on the left would have taken issue with how and why it was put that way, and rightly so.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I started that thread, two can play the bias game.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And many would have expressed themselves in paragraphs in an eloquent way and explained their position. Things you two do not do.
  
  In short: It isn't that you consider yourselves "conservatives" that I take issue with you. I actually respect an opposing view point. It is that you offer very little of substance. That is just frankly it. Your posts are really just a little removed from trolling posts, IMHO, again.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes we know, get a new tune sister!
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It might be better for all involved if you were to do that. Don't you agree?
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are the only one attacking anybody, you do it on thread after thread. I have never seen a debate from you, ever!
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  IMHO, that is a ridiculous statement.
  
  Notice the debate with LDT, a good debater, and of whom I am a fan:
  
  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/21946?page=4#post392395
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And if that is your, ahem, considered opinion...maybe you should consider posting somewhere else. I notice you two have your own thread now.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Its my opinion that when confronted with alternative theories your debate skills led you to say this "Thanks for the real post" and then this "Thanks. You and Ralwus added a dimension to this that I didn't see in a the articles I read. It adds to the understanding...possibly."
  
  That is all you had to say about other theories. It would lead a reasonable person to conclude that you had never considered any other alternative to the Right wing conspiracy theory. That is why we consider you biased.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And you would be wrong. But it appears that your mind only thinks in US VS. THEM.
  
  I posted this with the intention of sparking debate. I was not intending to get involved in a long flame war with two posters I consider, as I stated IMHO, have very little to offer but something only slightly above trolls. I wanted to come back to the thread and see the differing view points. Of course, you and she taunted and called 'laundry.'
  
  I thanked Ralwus (who is a fan) and Dutchman (who is a conservative and a fan) for their input and interesting points.
  
  That is all.
  
  But really, what is the difference? You two thrive on confrontation. Nothing more. You will never agree with anything I say on principle (if you have even examined it that far.)
  
  I actually am going to bed. This has just all been too, too fun.
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  Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I guess it was the third time on this thread. Such a boring thread it is!
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I said wait for the investigation to be over and you flew off in a tirade about ABC,NBC not waiting. Great debate skills you have, just admit you want people to agree with you and leave it at that!
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Say something that holds it's own logically and I might agree. How can I tell if you don't?
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Half the civilized world has written on this subject and posted similar headlines. I suppose all of them are illogical, and you and Tex ( using two euphemistic 'handles' with funny avatars) alone are logical.
  
  I'm not interested in you 'agreeing.' I'm not interested, frankly, in having you post here. SP was right. We both miss the HP of a few months ago.
  
  It was a boring thread. Of course, out of some idea of defending one's self over...basically...defamation (I do use my real name), I end up posting and posting.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe you should sue
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I was just reading at work that it has been done. And successfully.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Go for it
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not interested. Waste of energy. Cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
  
  Shame. I don't want to end up in this fashion.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know how to break it to you but you are already there, you just can't see it. Go to bed its late!
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No. Never. Check out my hubs sometime. I do not write vitriol. I am not interested in vitriol or hate. However, when attacked, I will respond. In all honesty, I cannot tell you how much I disrespect most of you. Sorry, but that is just an honest statement....and it has nothing to do with politics, guaranteed.
  
  I know you are retired and bored, and think all this is quite funny, but there are more constructive, positive things to do with your time. If my own father did stuff like this, I'd be quite ashamed....but he never would. (And btw, he is a Republican. Just not one of this 'nature.' But then again, conservative is NOT the proper term for you...something else is.)
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Really don't care! Debate your point or move along!
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's very, very interesting...as The Atlantic site, even in the least of posts, has much more substantive discussion on the very same material.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The nature of debate is to 'discredit,' or rather attack VIEWPOINTS. It can be just limited to that. And not go over the top, or get personal. I know who the good conversationalists/debaters are, and have respect for them and their sharpness of wit and expression. I am aware of what a personal attack is versus what ad hominem is (for the two are different also).
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SweetiePieposted 13 years ago
Sufi also has shared how much less he posts here these days. Too bad so many great hubbers have left because a few want to control the conversation, and darken the atmosphere.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds like a lot of people do not like opposition.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I was just about to say the same thing.
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That is not the case. It is that the opposition does not give people the opportunity to have a conducive discussion without things becoming a food fight. Some of those posters do not even take sides, but they were put in little boxes by people who thought they should.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What are you talking about?
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Lita and many others no what I am talking about. Sorry you pretend not to see that the tactics of a group of right wing conservatives have resulted in many leaving the forums. Some say it comes from both sides, but it is primarily one group of right wingers who stop the conversation in its tracks. You think it is so clever by discrediting my comments this way, but now I see the insecurity on your part for doing that.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It was a genuine question SP. What I "see" is that the conversation is "stopped in its tracks" because some posters do not have substantive arguments in light of various facts presented.
  
  There, that was a paragraph, wasn't it?
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Then, you have stated your opinion, and perhaps should think about moving on to something else.
  
  As this topic is being debated very broadly right now, across a wide spectrum of news sites and media outlets, I cannot say I agree with you. But if that is your opinion, you certainly can post elsewhere on another topic of consideration.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I was really hoping for some genuine debate and discussion.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But, really, your own language and presentation does not allow for that. I even see that you have your own forum post now. So maybe you should think about posting there.
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well honestly I know I definitely have substantive arguments, but I noticed how you wrote a hub and pointed out in the comments that my arguments were misinformed. You even went so far to say I would not be changing opinions with my arguments, but I never even look to do that. I actually just share how I see it, and never go about with the intention of "changing" what people think. Funny how you had to bring me up to Lady E, especially when I had not even been to your hub. That was odd indeed! Many others contribute substantial posts, but they left when things got weird. Some here throw around the word shill like conservative Christians throw around the word sinner. It is the tone of the conversation that makes people stay away, that is the bottom line.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Correction - Lady_E brought you up to me. I merely responded to her provocation. And as long as you've brought up the subject, I specifically look to others to enlighten me, to change my way of thinking with their compelling arguments and presentation of facts. Some here have done that and my hat's off to them. I have never, and will never close myself to that possibility. But no one is going to gain that advantage without having their thinking clear.
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  She most certainly did not! I read the comments of your hub, and only at the end do you mention me. My thinking is clear as crystal, but you are sort of rude. Yes you did attack me in your hub, and you do it all the time. That is not clear thinking, just personal attacks!
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, she did. She said that a hubber had left my fan club and then condescendingly said she "could see why". Since you were the only one to leave my fan club I wasn't exactly leaping to any conclusions.
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  She never said that or implied it. Anyway, I guess you wanted me to visit your hub and talk to you about it, but the reason I left your fan club was because that day you all got together and attacked me. Did you really think I would stay in the fan club of a person that shows no respect.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Did you leave only my fan club or was this a non-partisan effort? If I wanted to talk to you about something I would have emailed you, not posted "something in a comment" and hope you'd see it.
  
  Also, debating with you is showing respect. If I had no respect for you I would ignore you. When someone disagrees with your stance and posts logical refutations to that stance, that is not an attack.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, SP. Good night! Don't let them corner you...just because they are 'bored' or something, evidently.
  
  And Madame X and Tex...no, it isn't laundry. But I'm going to bed. I'm very tired...been working with no weekends off for 3 weeks. SO sorry to spoil your 'fun' or whatever it is.
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SweetiePieposted 13 years ago
I admire that you think it is logical, but it really was not. Anyway, it had nothing to do with partisanship because I have long been the fan of people here that have completely opposite view points than myself, but they do not get together in a group and trounce on people. Your definition of debate is just to degrade. Such as telling people to go do laundry, or claiming people are smug because they are proud of their education. Those are not exactly debating points. For a group that claims to be so big on personal freedom and individuality, I have found that many of you are very big conformists.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are confusing me with others. I have never told anyone to "go do laundry" or claimed anyone was smug or attacked their education. Everyone here is an individual but you seem to want to lump us all together, the conservatives anyway.
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  SweetiePieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You just made a comment about laundry a few posts back. Please go look. Also, and I hate to go here, but you and your group made some big point about how I think I know all, but I know very little. Oh well, none of it matters in the end because it is what it is. I miss the Hubpages of months past, but there are still some people here that keep the spirit.
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  Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I said "I guess it's laundry time." That is not telling someone to go do laundry. And refrain from lumping me into some "group". I enjoy that some here think as I do but we are not a "group". We just happen to see the same holes in what passes for logic with some posters.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
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Uninvited Writerposted 13 years ago
All I can say about this thread is that a man was murdered and people are giggling about it...

Regardless of who is responsible, it was an awful crime against an innocent man.
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  atomswifeyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree and I am not giggling about it
  I was showing that coming to the conclusion that this horrific act of violence came from any conspiracy theory is ridiculous.
  
  Whoever did this was a monster regardless of what side of the aisle they stand politically!
  which they probably do not stand on either!
  If you read the articles they say it happened in an area filled with drug pushers and the like so it would be easy to assume the one responsible was
  1 on drugs at the time
  2 is a lunatic and
  3 has no affiliations with any political party
  
  Just a nut-job with a severe inferiority complex!
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  blue dogposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  so if i live in an area with blacks and hispanics and puerto ricans, along comes the discovery of a gruesome crime, it then "would be easy to assume the one responsible was"
  1 - a black
  2 - a hispanic
  3 - a puerto rican
  4 - a lunatic
  5 - has no affiliations with any political party
  6 - a redneck with limited intelligence
  7 - a religious hypocrite with even more limited intelligence
  8 - a man writing "manly" poetry calling himself tex
  
  pick one. it has to be one. it couldn't possibly be anyone other than those listed. really. amazing. really amazing.
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  atomswifeyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The implication was written on his chest that it resulted from him conducting the census being in the wrong place at the wrong time in front the wrong person!
  
  and no, how could it be said that anyone murdering a guy like that could possibly be a lunatic. You are right and I apologize to all the lunatics out there if I degraded you in some way.
  
  wow amazing wow, really amazing really
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Leta Sposted 13 years ago
The FBI is indeed investigating whether the killing is an anti-government hate crime.

Sparkman, the man killed, was a Boy Scout leader and substitute teacher who was supplementing his income as a part-time census field worker.

This is some of the conversation going on over the web:

I was going to say' lets not jump to conclusions', even though a tragedy like this is a logical outgrowth from the hyper-inflammatory hate speech spewed by mainstream conservative TV and radio. I was hoping the unsourced report of the word 'FED' on the victim was incorrect. I was wrong.
I am now hoping for a non-political explanation. But I believe I will be disappointed again. If that is the case, I hope this murder wakes up the 80% who are not part of the irrational far right. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing, but vile, slanderous, hate-filled rhetoric should no longer generate income. If they're selling a book, don't buy it. If they're on the radio, don't listen. If they're on TV, don't watch. If they have a website, don't add to their traffic. If they appear in a magazine, don't buy it. And if they are the subject of story on this site, don't read it. Because even if the post is negative, the more we click, the more they benefit.
Reply Favorite Flag as abusive Posted 10:48 PM on 09/25/2009
- + New dartagnan I'm a Fan of dartagnan I'm a fan of this user 42 fans permalink
photo

"If they're selling a book, don't buy it. If they're on the radio, don't listen. If they're on TV, don't watch. If they have a website, don't add to their traffic. If they appear in a magazine, don't buy it. And if they are the subject of story on this site, don't read it."

Good advice, but unfortunately only those who need it won't listen to it.

Hate and anger are addictive emotions. By feeding their fans a daily dose of hate and anger, people like Limbaugh, Beck and Savage are both satisfying the addiction and increasing the craving for more frequent and stronger doses. They are the political and moral equivalent of heroin or crack dealers.
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  atomswifeyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Are you kidding me?!!!
  I cannot believe you or anyone would say something like that!
  well then again, yes I can.
  You are the ones who forget who We the people are.
  You forget or do not understand that it is our voice that rules not Washington!
  Not only that but did you ever happen to think that maybe this is a ploy to get people to think that way, to stop freedom of speech?
  
  Yes better to stop those that disagree with you from being able to say anything right?!
  Please!
  
  Man!
  
  I remember when Alex Baldwin got on national t.v. and said that Dick Cheney deserved a bullet to the head, and when Bill Maher got on t.v. every week and slammed Bush and all the right, and night after night, day after day the leftist media played into how Bush was the devil for Iraq and then showed how many soldiers were killed that day and then praised the likes of Michael Moore and some idiot who said that 9/11 was planned by the Bush administration!
  And then when a t.v. reporter was murdered in her home which had a Bush/Cheney sign in the front lawn, nobody said anything about that being a hate crime, or blaming the media for fueling it!
  
  I cannot believe anyone would try to "justify" this mudering loony's actions by putting the scape-goat onto Rush or Glen Beck because they speak the truth about how this country is going down the tubes and our freedoms are being stripped away!
  wake up people they are!
  
  But what does that or anyone saying that have to do with some nut job doing this?!
  The guy is a loon
  a total degenerate!
  that is why this happened!!
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  blue dogposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  great job, atom, spoken like the true christian you profess to be.
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  atomswifeyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  and how would you know what a Christian talks like or should talk like?
  
  the guy who did this does not in any way shape or form deserve respect from me in calling him anything other than what I think he is.
  God loves Him.
  That is Gods love
  nobody said that any of us would have the kind of love or depth of love God does and has!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  AW - I think it is only fair that you keep your ridiculous religious beliefs confined to the religionist forum. This one is for politics and social issues - you can spout your garbage all you like in the religion forum.
  
  Don't you?
  
  Thank you.
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  rebekahELLEposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  no time for forums today, but just an observation. I can't imagine what it must be like to live in such a hateful, closed mind. hope you monitor your blood pressure.
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  blue dogposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  once smoldering, we now find along with that daily dose of hate and anger,is the sad reality that racism is once again gaining control in thoughtless america. instead of being worn out on sleeves as it was in the 40's, 50's and 60's, it cowardly hides itself in the bowels of that "daily dose of hate and anger." one need look no further than within these forums to see it in all its glory, not only hidden in the guise of religion, but in ignorance as well.
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Leta Sposted 13 years ago
Yes, BD. Well stated. And that's why I posted this thread. There are many (and I do not blame them) who have decided these forums should be left to those you mention, as they are sick and tired of it all.

My fear is that if people don't speak out...calling a spade a spade...these groups/individuals may indeed begin to incite violent acts such as the one now in question and under investigation.
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  pgrundyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Check this link out:
  
  http://dooce.com/hate/
  
  Dooce is a blogger who mostly writes about personal issues--her kids, family, friends, daily life--but occasionally expresses a political opinion and her political opinions lean toward the liberal end of things. Because he blog is popular she gets lots of hate mail. One day a friend said, "You should monetize all this hate. It's free content!"
  
  So she did! lol!
  
  Wouldn't it be funny to do that here? I mean, I'd love to set up a website for it and donate the ad revenue to progressive causes. Maybe the guy who left me my last love note calling me about five ugly names and ending with "people like you are what's wrong with America, enjoy hell!" would hold his tongue if he knew that popping off ended up generating a donation to the ACLU.
  
  It's fun to think about anyway.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is actually quite funny! Especially to see how much the hate mongers lack in originality. They say the same things over and over, only they direct it towards different people--sometimes for the most innocuous reasons.
  
  I know... Hubpages should start a sub-forum/play pen for the Limbaugh/Beck/Hannity/etc. food-throwing, hate-babbling crowd, and monetize it with lots of hate ads. There would be lots of clicks, as they do seem to rule the forums these days.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And you are filled with love?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  I think I have enough in by inbox to be getting started with. All dome in "love" of course........ Guess the Texan is a fan of tough lovin' too huh?
  
  You can count me in for sure.
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  pgrundyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think it would be a positive thing actually. Kind of like mulch. What is mulch? Crap, spoiled food, trash... but it helps flowers grow.
  
  Transformation is always an option.
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blue dogposted 13 years ago
i rest my case...
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  atomswifeyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  you had none to begin with
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nicompposted 13 years ago
Finally, a little common sense in this thread.
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nicompposted 13 years ago
And the common sense vanishes as quickly as it appeared.
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Leta Sposted 13 years ago
You would be welcome in the play pen, I think, guys.

And Tex...I realize it is hard to see out of the dark confines of your own mind...but I don't come from the same place you do and never have.
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Leta Sposted 13 years ago
Maybe you guys can make hubs consisting of all the hate mail you receive! It would be really interesting to see what Google ads pop up, after all.

And yes, Tex is a definite 'loving' fan of mine and quite a few others. He's been sued three times for the violation of suspects' civil liberties, you know. I think all money made off of the hate ad forum or hub clicking should go to the ACLU...possibly.

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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I Figured as much.
  
  How about "Planned Parenthood" instead?
  
  They are non-political.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sure! That's where yours and ours meet. Good choice!
  
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You should add I was cleared of any violations! It would be factual to do so, but you're not really interested in facts are you?
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You might be interested to know I wrote a book on a famous case that took place in a Southern court room. (But probably not.) Facts certainly are negotiable, aren't they?
  
  No, it is your very contentiousness and general 'loving' disposition that led me to believe you had been sued. And I was right.
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  A Texanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know many Police Officers who have not been sued, seems to be a sport among criminals. I don't know of many sucessful suits either.
  
  You are absolutely right! I would not be interested in anything you conjured up. Keep presenting your version of "facts"
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmm. My partner's teenage son dates the daughter of the Chief of Police here. I don't think the aforementioned has ever been sued. I'm sure that's besides the point, however.
  
  Not many would would argue, viewing this these forums, that you do not have a 'loving' disposition, however. It should be great for all those Google hate ad clicks. Hubpages should definitely think about this idea as part of their business plan.
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  jiberishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Checkmate! You posted this comment on one of your Hubs: "Why don't they just take their club to another website and destroy it?" in answer to someone who apposes your views. Care to explain?
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  blue dogposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  and you are?
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Leta Sposted 13 years ago
@Jibberish:

I've posted it all over, and so have others. You haven't 'caught' me in anything, ma'am, though I'm certain you think that is very clever. I've said what I believe all through this thread. Read it over...you are welcome to do so.

I do not consider most of those currently posting under the 'guise' of the conservative label as conservatives but generally low-level trolls who do not contribute much of substance, and actually quite a bit of hate. I welcome people of all viewpoints for a constructive debate. That has been missing, much of the time, on Hubpages for many months.

I am happy that Hubpages has changed their rules, to some extent, although the TOS does not begin to address some of the more rampant trolling and spewing, IMHO. There is also a letter/spirit/intent problem that I'd see addressed, though this is not my business. I definitely think (as do many others), that this is destroying the site.

It certainly is not about opposing views...in short, but the protection of legitimate free speech. The trollish behavior here kills true free speech most of the time.
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  pgrundyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  On the other hand, it is pushing me into different venues and I'm kind of grateful for that. It's easy to fall into a rut writing online. It's instant and easy but not very profitable. When it stops being fun, you think, "Whoa. I'm doing this why exactly?"
  
  Looking forward to Nanowrimo in November.
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  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, lol. I don't know. I look at this as sort of sharpening my verbal skills...in some way. I think it may have helped in real life meetings with, uh, people of differing view points. Sort of a toughening.
  
  I'm questioning the time I spend here, too, as is my partner, lol.
  
  And Pam, that's on my list this weekend. To sign up for the Nanowrimo--I've the idea down...but nothing more. That's 4 pages a day for a month. Doable!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not so long ago - I used to meet some really interesting and (hate to use this word,) "nice" people on hubpages.
  
  All I seem to bump into lately is religionists who "love" me and scum like A Texan with nothing to say.
  
  If it ain't been proven in a court 'o" law, you ain't guilty..........
  
  Oh well. Time to move on methinks.........
  
  A Texan - any time you want to come out from hiding behind a girl n tackin a gurl - y'all let me know. I got sum friends down yo way be only too pleezed ta visit wit ya. They in the oil bidness.
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  Uninvited Writerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm so glad you are back Mark. Please don't go... The forum needs you. Otherwise, I may have to stop visiting the forum too. It's getting impossible to have a real discussion.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. But - you have to admit that it has gotten pretty unpleasant lately. There are some really cool people here, but being able to hide behind "A Texan," or "InHIsGlory," or whatever, has got out of hand. They can say what they like.
  
  Come on guys - leave me a comment on one of my hubs. Please. Do you have the balls to do so?
  
  Nah - didn't think so..........
  report
  78
  Uninvited Writerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It has, I compare it to the fly problem I have had this year. They just keep buzzing and buzzing and are annoying
  report
2. 78
  jiberishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Define Trollish Behavior. Is it anyone who has an apposing view? Because I have seen very little name calling.
  report
  0
  Leta Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I guess an adequate, precise definition would have to be worked out. However, it isn't in my interest. That's Hubpages' interest.
  
  And actually, yes. Quite a few have been banned by this time for out and out nasty name calling. Words like, bitch, hag, slug...and telling people to kill themselves, etc.
  report
60
blue dogposted 13 years ago
now if we could just get tex (with a little t) and madam x back in here for a serious discussion...
i'm guessing he's gone off to write his poetry. or read it to her.
report
1. 78
  Uninvited Writerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  He's gone off to watch football
  report

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Did Right-wing Conspiracy Theories Spark Killing of US Census Worker?

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Did Right-wing Conspiracy Theories Spark Killing of US Census Worker?

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