Historic Moment for the two Koreas

1. 83

   AshutoshJoshi06posted 6 years ago

   
   Will the small step by Kim be a giant leap for the two Koreas? Does Trump deserve any credit for the same?
   Ofcourse its all too early and the skeptics need much more than just photo-ops. Nonetheless, this is historic moment as Kim walked across the demarcation line at the Demilitarized Zone (DMZ). A first since the Korean war.

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      wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      It's only an opinion, but I tend to give him quite a bit of credit.  He is likely the only person since the Korean war to speak a language that the likes of Kim can understand and although many national leaders were very upset about it, many more stood beside him.  Notably those that are threatened the most by the threats from NK.

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         AshutoshJoshi06posted 6 years agoin reply to this

         Thankfully that's a bygone phase, things were really heating up. Again, it's too early. Though beyond the tweets, I believe some back channel negotiations have taken place. Pompeo was earlier in DPRK too and Kim suddenly gone soft cannot entirely be owing to sanctions or may be, I am not so sure.

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      Don Wposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Does Trump deserve any credit? For that matter, does Kim Jong-un deserve any credit? Let me rephrase the question . . .
      
      Does a megalomaniac who threatens another megalomanic with nuclear war, deserve credit when the other megalomaniac turns out to be (apparently) less of a megalomanic than he is (for the time being)?
      
      Do so-called leaders deserve credit because (for the moment) they appear to have stopped acting like psychopaths towards each other?
      
      Not threatening someone with nuclear war is not an achievement. It's sanity. Do heads of state deserve credit for appearing to be sane (or at least not completely insane)?
      
      Resolving differences by talking is something rational, sensible, well-balanced people do every day. Should these egotists get credit for simply talking about doing the same?
      
      Or instead, do both these megalomaniacs deserve utter condemnation for the reckless, irresponsible, machoistic posturing that threatened the lives of millions of people in multiple countries? Do they deserve absolute disdain for the way they have engaged as heads of state? And do they both deserve to be told, in no uncertain terms, that their egotistical, idiotic behaviour won't be tolerated?
      
      I managed to not fly into a megalomanic rage and threaten to kill everyone today. I look forward to all the credit I will no doubt receive for this heroic achievement.

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         AshutoshJoshi06posted 6 years agoin reply to this

         It all makes perfect sense but the fact remains, that it took more than six decades for parties involved to not act like warmongering megalomaniacs and think through this. That in itself is an achievement, even if it's too early. Not exerting influence to threaten the peace process also counts. Unless there's more than meets the eye, all the little efforts in the backdrop of a crisis, are appreciated.

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            Don Wposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Yes it could be argued that over the last 60 years other leaders have acted more/less like megalomanics than these two, but the question was about whether Trump (and by extension Jong-un) deserve credit for current events in Korea.
            
            I understand people might be pleased a solution other than thermonuclear war is now being considered. I certainly am (though I have reservations about where this will all lead). But that doesn't mean their ridiculous conduct up to this point should be ignored or deemed acceptable.
            
            Crediting people who have acted like megalomaniacs just because they now start to act slightly less like megalomaniacs, only lowers the bar for what constitutes acceptable behavior, and ultimately encourages megalomaniacal tendencies.
            
            Essentially it becomes a formula for reinforcing bad behavior: 1) two leaders react to an already risky situation by throwing tantrums that create an even more heightened risk, which threatens the lives of hundreds of thousands of people; 2) they stop throwing tantrums and agree talking might be a good idea; 3) they receive praise for reducing the heightened risk they were responsible for creating in the first place.
            
            That formula is a recipe for disaster.
            
            If my neighbour and I were in dispute, and they threatened to kill me and my family, and I threatened them likewise, we don't deserve credit for talking instead of going ahead with our threats. We deserve criticism for engaging in such idiotic, abusive, immature behavior in the first place.
            
            So no, I don't believe leaders deserve credit for refraining from acting insane and idiotic. That should be the minimum expected standard of behavior. We do ourselves a disservice to accept anything less.

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               wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               "Put simply, I don't believe leaders deserve credit for not acting insane and idiotic. That should be the minimum expected standard of behavior. We do ourselves a disservice to accept anything less."
               
               Implicit in this is that both leaders listen, understand and accept what the other is saying.  That they are speaking the same language - a language understood by all.
               
               When leaders ask Kim to "please play nicely with your neighbors" what he hears is "I'm weak and you can do whatever you wish".  Whereupon he increases his ability to apply force to get even more weakness.
               
               But when Trump says "Play nice with others and do not use your force or I will eradicate you from the face of the earth with my own massively superior force" he is speaking a language Kim understands.  When Trump continues with "Either behave yourself or I will destroy you economically as well", and proceeds to start that procedure, Kim gets the message correctly.  Kim doesn't understand appeasement or reason; he understands threats and force. 
               
               It will do no good to speak Chinese to an African bushman about good environmental practices, and it will no good to speak to Kim in a language he does not know, does not understand and will always interpret differently than what is intended.  Pretending that everyone in the world, including a megalomaniac that lives by intimidation and the sword, will understand the language of international diplomacy is the disservice, not speaking a message that will be understood.

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                  mrpopoposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  I could have sworn a "tut-tut" and a strongly worded letter would have done the trick. That's what psychopaths respond to, right?

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                     wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     I wouldn't know, but given that there are so many in mental hospitals I would think that if it worked they would be treated within 5 minutes and released back onto the streets.

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                  JAKE Earthshineposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  lol, Kim did more missile testing while Trump has been loafing in our white house than during any previous administration: lol, yeah give em' a Peace Prize: if Kim Jung Un was so frightened of Spanky Trump's recklessly crazy off the cuff threats of 'fire and fury', why did he just brush off Donny like a speck of dandruff and continue to launch and test long range missiles for months after he issued the threats? Kim forced nervous Donny to draw several red lines of which Kim simply stepped over with impunity and that's a fact:
                  
                  That's what happens when you open your big mouth without the ability to think things through before hand:
                  
                  So, in reality, Kim Jung Un despite Trump's incoherent blabber and idle threats, continued to test and ultimately perfected his weapons before he stopped, and now, he's playing Trump for a fool again by pausing to plot his next strategy:
                  
                  Everyone knows Kim Jung Un will never give up the only thing that keeps him alive, his nukes: Too bad we didn't have an intelligent master strategist in the white house who could have genuinely earned a Nobel Peace Prize:

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                  1. 83

                     AshutoshJoshi06posted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     That's one piece of puzzle as what made Kim have a sudden change of heart when his saber-rattling was at its peaks and totally unfazed by the flurry of Trump's twitter tomahawks.
                     
                     Could it be just be increasing pressure of sanctions, I wonder..
                     Anyway all's well as long as it doesn't end in a well.

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                        JAKE Earthshineposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                        Absolutely correct, Kim was unfazed by Mr. Trump's idle threats which he walked right through because he knew they were exactly that. idle: Donald is the most predictable quasi president in history, every leader in the world including Kim know exactly what he's thinking 24/7 by just reading his retarded tweet tizzys, or by listening to his insane erratic fox fake channel rants which unfortunately means they know exactly how to play and manipulate him at any given time: Dangerously absurd:
                        
                        Kim had completed his nuclear missile tests on Donny's dime and now it's simply time for him to 'change field' for a while and lead Mr. Trump by the orange nose in a different direction:
                        
                        What was this cowardly blabber mouth doing loafing in Michigan last night on our dime in front of a few thousand of his cult members slandering a United States Senator while acting like a complete schlubb while we have a desperate homeless situation that needs immediate attention?
                        
                        Heck, why don't we just give him a medal of honor too, he did nothing in the military to earn it but so what? As a matter fact he evaded serving our country:

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                  Don Wposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  The way Trump and Jong-un have engaged each other is not an isolated, uncharacteristic exchange for either of them. It's part of a wider pattern of behaviour that suggests both are in fact as juvenile as they appear to be.
                  
                  So it's more likely Trump and Jong-un got into a juvenile shouting match, not as part of some cunning plan either of them had to get the upper hand, but just because they are both petty and juvenile.
                  
                  All indications suggest neither of them understands the language of international diplomacy. Yet we are now expected to give these "world leaders" credit for realising that international diplomacy may be a useful way to resolve issues.
                  
                  That's like giving credit to a doctor for realising that using medicine is a useful way to heal people.
                  
                  I give credit where it's due. In my view, in the case of Trump and Jong-un, none is due.

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                     ahorsebackposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     What an absolutely lame and biased response from someone who usually is fairly honest  ?  I'm more than sure Trump could give two shytes about the Nobel or any award , those can be saved for the next first day "Obama  like " president .     Trumps an a$$ kicker and professional negotiator , that is exactly what evades your less than expert opinion .
                     A leader not an medal recycler .
                     
                     
                     Save the medals for the next "Obama"

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         mrpopoposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         Speaking of heads exploding.

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2. 81

   Kathryn L Hillposted 6 years ago

   South Korea could have said, "Get Lost!"

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      Aime Fposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      South Korea wants unification more than anyone and has since the end of the war. So that would be silly.
      
      I said in another thread that I’m skeptical but I’m also hopeful. It would be great to see it happen for real.

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      1. 83

         AshutoshJoshi06posted 6 years agoin reply to this

         The skepticism is justified though Moon Jae In definitely looks like a man who can take this further. I am actually pretty surprised with the way Kim has been acting offlately. A happy ending here would infuse some positivity further south east. But then again its not just about what these two nations want but more importantly what the other stake holders want as well which includes both China and US.

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      2. 81

         Kathryn L Hillposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         I just wonder what would happen to North Korea if South Korea refused to have anything to do with it. North Korea is in a desperate state. I would like to know the particulars of the country as it is now: its citizens, their way of life and the effects (on human beings) of such a dictatorship. There's an interesting case study.
         
         https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor … edirect=on
         
         https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor … 0814a26706

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3. 72

   mrpopoposted 6 years ago

   https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/26/world/ko … index.html
   
   There's already talk of Trump being nominated to win the 2018 Nobel Peace Prize. By god, wouldn't it be amazing to see that? How many heads would explode...

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   1. 83

      AshutoshJoshi06posted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Global outrage for sure but Trump will have the last laugh tweeting #Metoo

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         JAKE Earthshineposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         Anyone know what the specific legalities are? For instance, not that he actually deserves it for taking credit for 2 Koreans shaking hands, but can an individual such as mr. Trump be nominated and subsequently receive the Nobel Peace Prize while serving time in prison?
         
         Has that ever happened before? It's actually a very serious question: I'm not sure if forfeiting your liberty and freedom disqualifies you from legal acceptance:

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         1. 81

            Kathryn L Hillposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            What are you gonna do if he does not end up in prison ...
            at all?

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4. 81

   Kathryn L Hillposted 6 years ago

   Why should South Korea have anything to do with North Korea?
   I wouldn't help them if I was the president of South Korea. What about North Korea's connection to China?
   I would afraid of being consumed by China.

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      Aime Fposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Because they want peace. The war is technically still ongoing. I don’t think they need to be worried about being “consumed by China” as things currently stand.
      
      If you want to learn more about life in North Korea there are plenty of documentaries made by people who actually visit the country and plenty more based on citizens that have defected to other countries. “Under the Sun” is my personal favourite, it’s both deeply fascinating and disturbing.

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5. 81

   Kathryn L Hillposted 6 years ago

   Actually, I  do not believe this "reaching out" has anything to do with Trump.

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6. 81

   Kathryn L Hillposted 6 years ago

   I think China ordered Korea to do it.

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7. 0

   ahorsebackposted 6 years ago

   If pres Obama was still in office , The media would be saying  "This meeting Is  His Most Shining and Brilliant Diplomatic Move Yet "   , Pres. Hillary , " For the first time in History a Woman brings Arch Enemies Together After 70 Years Apart" .
   
   But This is Pres. Trump were obstructing right ?

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8. 0

   ahorsebackposted 6 years ago

   So liberals don't obviously want to give Trump credit for No-So Korea ?  Well, I guess we won't then give credit to Obama for the Paris Accords , for the ACA , for  ....................sorry I don't  really have much to choose from !

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9. 81

   Kathryn L Hillposted 6 years ago

   Yeah! Trump is as dumb as a tree stump. Good for nothing. Something that needs to be sawed down; lower and lower until its flat and parallel to the ground.
   
   Saw away, all you with saws. Once the Trump-Stump is flat you can stomp upon it with the greatest of glee. You'll be doing the Tromp-on-Trump-Stump Stomp!

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