Welcome back torture! Haspel's non-answers.

1. 61

   Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago

   With Spanky already making it clear he's all for using torture, his nomination of Gina Haspel to head the CIA is raising flags among some congressional members. She flat out refused to answer the question, "Do you think the methods you used during the Iraq War were immoral or not.  After repeated tries by several members of the committee she still stonewalled.
   
   John McCain has firmly spoke out against her being confirmed and he should know all about torture due to his years in a prison camp.  He said torure doesn't work, but Spanky--who dodged any sort of military service--thinks he knows better. 
   
   Your thoughts?

   replyreport
   1. 94

      wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Personally I had a problem with her answer that she wouldn't do what she considered to be immoral.  If she has a job to do then she is expected to DO that job, and whether or not it violates her personal morals is irrelevant.
      
      Do we want a nurse or physician that refuses to treat gays, drunks, adolators, drug users, criminals, pedophiles, abortion doctors, etc. ?  Do we want a judge that refuses to assign guilt or punishment because (s)he finds the law, passed by the peoples representatives, to be immoral? 
      
      But McCain - if he was tortured as a prisoner then he was in no condition to know if it "worked" on anyone else, and the result from a single example is worthless.  The Great and Honorable President Donald Trump may well know more about it that McCain does - holding a gun does not make a torture expert. 
      
      If you don't think torture "works" you might think back to the Inquisition and ask yourself why it continued for so long if it was a failure.  Was everyone just that sadistic, or did it produce the desired results?

      replyreport
      1. 78

         Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

         "The Great and Honorable President Donald Trump may well know more about it that McCain does - holding a gun does not make a torture expert"
         
         What is the basis for that comment Wilderness?  Why would a lily liveried draft dodging coward know more about the concept having no relative experience, at all? What are his credentials? But like so many conservatives, they be.ieve that his intuition is adequate substitute for actual experience, which will continue to get him into trouble and keep him there.
         
         I think that he is 'so smart' that he does not need to listen to the people who actually are in a position to know..

         replyreport
         1. 94

            wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            What are McCains credentials?  Has he tortured a few hundred people and kept record of results? Or did you miss the important part: "The Great and Honorable President Donald Trump may well know more about it that McCain does"?  Keep in mind that I try not to spin and convince readers of something false: I mean what I say, nothing else.  Trump may know more, he may not.  Randy seemed to think that it was somehow obvious that McCain would be more knowledgeable on the subject, but presented nothing to indicate that was true.
            
            You may think that being tortured gives a person deep insight and knowledge into how well it works on others.  I have serious doubts about that.

            replyreport
            1. 61

               Randy Godwinposted 5 years agoin reply to this

               So how many people have you been tortured by, Dan?  Or you have tortured yourself? What makes you a better judge than McCain?

               replyreport
               1. 94

                  wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  What makes you a better judge than Trump?  Tortured a few hundred, have you?

                  replyreport
                  1. 61

                     Randy Godwinposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                     I forgot, you don't answer questions, Dan. Simply deflect with more questions. Never mind, too much like conversing with horse!
                     
                     And furthermore, it's a disgrace to compare a draft dodger to a real war hero.  Nuff sed!

                     replyreport
                     1. 94

                        wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                        Ask a question on topic and I'll answer...if you've answer the ones I asked. 
                        
                        Change topics and I'm not too much interested, Randy.  You have a habit of doing that when you don't like what is coming into view, but that doesn't mean I should drop the topic and change to something different.
                        
                        Like bringing draft dodgers into the discussion of torture and what makes one knowledgeable on that topic.

                        replyreport
                        1. 78

                           Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                           I would like to know WHAT it is that makes Trump, knowledgeable. Can Trump substantiate his source, why not divulge? I know that you accentuated MAY in your last response. But, also it MAY be possible that the moon is made of green cheese as well...... MAY in this context mean highly improbable or virtually impossible.

                           replyreport
                           1. 94

                              wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                              "I would like to know WHAT it is that makes Trump, knowledgeable."
                              
                              How in the world would I know?  A study in college?  Reading books?  Talking to the people in charge of torture, or the ones doing it?  A visit to Guantanamo, observing it as it happened?  Time spent watching videos of torture? 
                              
                              Can you support the assumption that Trump has done nothing to educate himself in the matter, thus making it "highly improbably or virtually impossible" that he is knowledgeable?

                              replyreport
                        2. 61

                           Randy Godwinposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                           The context was if a draft dodger knows more about torture than a POW who has been tortured himself. I understand you don't have any reason why you are in the draft dodgers corner, other than you voted for him, that is.  This thread is about torture, remember?

                           replyreport
                           1. 94

                              wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                              "The context was if a draft dodger knows more about torture than a POW who has been tortured himself."
                              
                              Great!  You are insinuating that the victim of torture knows more about whether it is effective in general than a draft dodger does, presumably because of personal experience with one victim.  What can you provide to support that assumption?  Even a "logical" thought progression somehow supporting the statement?

                              replyreport
                              1. 61

                                 Randy Godwinposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                                 Common sense tells me, Wilderness. A person subjected to torture knows if it works because they experienced the suffering and did or didn't give up the info sought by the perpetrator. A draft dodger--especially Spanky--spent his time on the tennis courts, despite his bone spurs, and the golf course for his wartime service.
                                 
                                 Perhaps you can explain how such a person would gain the knowledge necessary to make an informed opinion on torture? 
                                 
                                 And by the way, Spanky is not a reader. "How the heck would you know" is a cop out. You made the claim.

                                 replyreport
                                 1. 94

                                    wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                                    I see.  "common sense" tells you that the experience of a single victim tells that victim all about the results of torture with the general population.  I'd have to reply that you badly need to re-think your premise that all people react the same to all events.  In my experience, "common sense" is probably the most uncommon thing to find in people, as it is always based on the desire for a pre-determined conclusion.
                                    
                                    As to how one might come by the information to make an informed opinion, rather than using "common sense" - https://hubpages.com/politics/forum/338 … ost4003450
                                    Just a few of the possibilities.  I'm sure you can come with more - perhaps a study of the inquisition or an in-depth research of the psychology of torture.
                                    
                                    Yes.  I made the claim that he may be more knowledgeable.  Not that he was.  On the other hand, YOU made the claim that "common sense" tells you (if not anyone else) that Trump is NOT more knowledgeable, apparently because you don't believe he is.  And, of course, because he didn't serve in the military, as if that automatically bestows great knowledge about the results of torture.  Then, in response to to a request for your reasoning, is "I just think so and don't need reasons - my common sense provides the answer".  I'm sorry, but that isn't a very good reason for me to agree with your conclusion.  Perhaps Trump's "common sense" provided the information, just as yours did.
                                    
                                    (Do you think that riding in the cockpit of a NASCAR car during a race gives the observer all the knowledge he needs to race such a car?  That having an epidural makes the "victim" able to give one?  That taking an airplane flight gives intimate knowledge of the psychology of the fear of flying or a good understanding of how to fly a jumbo jet?)

                                    replyreport
                                    1. 61

                                       Randy Godwinposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                                       I see you have a problem with common sense gained through experience. I feel bad for you not having any.

                                       report
                                       1. 94

                                          wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                                          Sure do!  When personal experience is extended to the general population under the premise that all people respond the same, well, the "common sense" that everyone reacts the same is a complete failure.
                                          
                                          If one falls out of an airplane and survives (it happens!) "common sense" does not say everyone else will survive.  If one takes out a mortgage and successfully pays it off, "common sense" does not say no one will suffer a re-possession.  If one survives a car crash, "common sense" does not say no one is killed in car crashes.
                                          
                                          And if one experiences torture, "common sense" does not dictate that other people, under the tender ministrations of a different torturer using different methods, will react as they did.  It doesn't even indicate that the next person on the same table will react as they did.  It says nothing at all as to what others will do.
                                          
                                          Unless, of course, your "common sense" is set aside in favor of a particular conclusion.

                                          report
                                          1. 61

                                             Randy Godwinposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                                             Common sense gained through experience is different from the common sense of not jumping off of a building or stepping in front of a moving vehicle, unless of course, you've already done so.  McCain knows if torture works or not, but Spanky has only hearsay to opine on the subject.
                                             
                                             I neglected to remark on your comments about the Inquisition. The Inquisition tells much about the use of torture and how it failed in so many ways. Sure, many confessed to being Infidels and turned Xtian to save their lives, but this only proves torture will give the answers the one doing the abuse wants and not necessarily the truth. Have you read about the Inquisition from the viewpoint of those being tortured?

                                             report
   2. 0

      ahorsebackposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Here's one for the absolute brilliance of the left , If US. troops are trained and water-boarded  in their survival instructions in case of capture , Navy Seals , special forces , rangers , Just how cruel and unusual a punishment can it be ?  No , I know ........you don't have to answer  if your loyalties lie with the past , present and future enemies of the US .
      
      Haspels the first woman to head the CIA  ,  IF the first woman  were a Hillary nominee , you of the obstructo-libs would be in a blanke-safe -space because of critiquing from the right  .
      
      Identity Politics of the left dictate only liberal woman is worth promoting . And only then as a group of female voters and not the individual woman.

      replyreport
      1. 78

         Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

         I don't care for rightwing types, in the face of that their gender is really irrelevant.

         replyreport
         1. 0

            ahorsebackposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            It sure Is irrelevant  to liberals , like I've said.
            
            "We stand for the rights of ALL women , and sit it out for the individual "
            IN other words give us all your votes and don't bother us when you have an individual issue. No matter the minority .

            replyreport
      2. 61

         Randy Godwinposted 5 years agoin reply to this

         Unfortunately, I can't find any examples of brilliance from the right, Horse. I'll keep looking though!

         replyreport
         1. 0

            ahorsebackposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            I guess it's only the left that rides into battle upon white horses , their chainmail glowing in a godlike sparkling  , Knights in white satin perhaps  ,  Unlike John McCain while an honorable soldier , a fighter bomber pilot , a 5 1/ 2 year POW in Hanoi Hilton was as responsible for many collaterally damaged and altered lives and deaths as the next soldier in Nam  .   I still admire him for his sacrifices as one of the absolute best of the best .
            
            Waterboarding - Is going to happen whether liberals think it will or not , which would you rather happen ?   All of these "tortures" to happen behind the scenes  in secret without our knowledge ?     How do you who credit Obama with killing Bin Laden -think that ,that  happened , little birds told the intelligence people where he was ?
            
            This is simply what we get when people decide to love their enemies before their own country , MORE than their own people ,  more than their own leaders .   Liberals seem actually superficial in intellect  discussing  issues like this ,  Someone once said  ," A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged "  I say , All people become conservative when attacked from behind like in 9/11  but apparently only if you are a direct victim  or you know the victim .   Otherwise apparently liberals always  tend towards pacifism ?
            
            By the way Randy , I know your kind ! If the victim were in your family and waterboarding was the only way to get to the perpetrators , You'd be 1 st one holding the water hose and screaming  your head off at the perps.

            replyreport
            1. 61

               Randy Godwinposted 5 years agoin reply to this

               I know your kind as well, horse. You'd be the one with the dog leashes and masks. Haspel has an R in front of her name, doesn't she?

               replyreport
               1. 0

                  ahorsebackposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  And its just the R before her name that is qualifying   any sense of your patriotism ?  That's showing a fantastic amount  of political /historical intellect .

                  replyreport
                  1. 61

                     Randy Godwinposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                     You're the one who mentioned letters before a name first, horse. Eat it!

                     replyreport
   3. 89

      GA Andersonposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Damn Randy you have forced me into an awkward position. To be clear I am not a McCain basher, but, regarding your ".. and he should know all about torture due to his years in a prison camp." - you would benefit from looking a little deeper into his "torture" experiences.  To be clear, again   I believe McCain endured incredible  degradation during his time as a prisoner, but, if you check some perspectives out there, that his treatment was relative to his value as the son of a high ranking admiral, (plus, and to his credit that he refused it, there are stories that he was offered early release - conditional on making certain statements, because of his father's status), then maybe your "he should know torture" statement might not be as all-encompassing as you think.
      
      Double damn, in no way do I want that comment to sound as a defamation of McCain or his experiences. I doubt I could endure what he did.
      
      
      GA

      replyreport
      1. 78

         Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

         release - conditional on making certain statements, because of his father's status), then maybe your "he should know torture" statement might not be as all-encompassing as you think.
         
         I still like to know GA, what is the basis of Trump's knowledge on the subject besides the fact that he says that he is an expert, as he says that he is in international affairs, diplomacy and every other  endeavor under the control  of people?

         replyreport
2. 0

   ahorsebackposted 5 years ago

   I find it rather amusing that liberals NOW use Sen.McCain's experiences in a debate about  waterboarding ,  They never could stand McCain or anything about him until now ?  If that isn't some fairly blatant hypocrisy .
   I have said many times , on 9/11 NYC liberals were ready to bomb the entire middle east  and waterboard brownskins from Mexico to the Mecca .
   NOW they become maniacs of morality .

   replyreport
   1. 61

      Randy Godwinposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      You are completely clueless on what the left think of McCain, horse. Your untrue comments let one know you are just like your hero Spanky. No one's buying your BS except other Spanky fans.

      replyreport
      1. 0

         ahorsebackposted 5 years agoin reply to this

         Hey Randy CNN polls released say that they are disappointed in that the "Blue Wave " in November isn't likely to happen at all , .............surprise !
         THAT says more about Trump supporters than anything else ,especially your opinion of it.

         replyreport
         1. 61

            Randy Godwinposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            I thought you said CNN polls were BS? 

            replyreport
            1. 0

               ahorsebackposted 5 years agoin reply to this

               I should have said EVEN CNN polls.

               replyreport
         2. 81

            Wesman Todd Shawposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            
            
            For all intentions and practical purposes, Stormy Daniels is the mass media face of the Democratic Party. I'm all for promoting women in politics, but it seems the Democrats have values which don't reflect my notions of political acuity. LOL

            replyreport
            1. 61

               Randy Godwinposted 5 years agoin reply to this

               I don't doubt it one bit, Wesman. You prefer a lying arrogant sleazeball  for your role model.

               replyreport
3. 0

   Onusonusposted 5 years ago

   Could care less.
   

   replyreport