Trumps success' have been overshadowed by the negativity of Trump Derangement in general , looking at his policies I'm concerned that many on the left will certainly need a twelve step program to get over the hangovers ? Many here have either delusionally resisted or quietly accepted that they must try to get over themselves , Blunt but true, will they need a program ?
Please, PLEASE stop pretending to be a right-wing extremist. We all know by now you are a troll working for the Democrats.
If I worked for the democrats I would be so far ahead of the obstruction I 'd be sneaking up on the leaders again from behind . You just can't break the cycle of resist can you ? Enjoy those tax breaks okay ?
Need the serenity prayer?
You mean the tax breaks that are bankrupting the country? The same ones that force up my state taxes and make me pay more total taxes?
You obviously are a democrat though - I'll bet you consider the "cost " of tax cuts much like Nancy Pelosi ....... ,"Oh no we've lost another tax revenue entitlement " What would it take to acknowledge a Trump victory ? Like the Clintons cash in hand works , right ?
There ! Why not open your own Foundation ? Maybe Hawaii will be looking for disaster relief . You know , Like Hillary and Bill , give 9 % out keep the other 91 % and stop relying on tax revenue entitlements .
Just a thought.
Liberals have done nothing to change established politics in Washington DC , In fact you've done nothing but resist the tearing down of graft ,corruption , cronyism and career palace dwelling money grubbing swine that inhabits the senate and congress . Pelosi says 'first agenda- raise taxes in November " if she wins . Why change anything with Trump when you'd rather have what he is fighting against ?
Doesn't a twelve step program require the participant admit they have a problem? I don't see that in the cards.
The problem we have IS that Trump is the answer both parties had wished for over the last decades to "clean house" in DC. yet the democrats are resisting that cleansing tooth and nail ? I was once young and dumb and a dem., but even in the sixties and seventies both parties were whining about the grinding slow march of DC politicians ? My question now is ;
What happened to THAT left ?
What I mean is ,This is our one chance , for ALL of us .
Yes, you are definitely someone who should be lecturing others on their inability to keep an open mind and tendency to be blinded by hate. That makes perfect sense.
Switch “Trump” with “liberal” and you’ll be looking in a mirror.
Sorry if I've ever led you to believe I have an open mind. When a person tells me they're "open minded" it tells me they have no core values or beliefs. It says to me they are weak-minded and emotionally needy. Their goal is to be accepted by a group. Since I have core values and beliefs, being open minded isn't necessary. I'm sure you realize there is a difference between not liking a dangerous and failed political ideology and a man who was elected into a public office? An election result is something you need to accept and the other is something that needs to be battled against daily.
It’s not about being “emotionally needy” it’s about acknowledging that you, as one person with a limited perspective, can actually learn things from people who are different than yourself. And it’s not being “weak-minded”, it’s actually quite the opposite - I think it takes a lot of self-awareness and security to be able to consider that maybe you don’t already have everything figured out and that there’s always room to grow. It doesn’t mean changing your mind about everything every time you talk to someone, but actually trying to figure out where they’re coming from and not dismissing people/ideas based on labels or preconceived notions... you know, pretty much exactly what ahorseback is insisting liberals need to do with Trump but what you guys refuse to do yourselves when the labels change.
And yes, because saying “I don’t like Trump” is focusing dislike on one person who has shown himself to be a certain kind of person for years and years in the public eye. Saying “I don’t like liberals” is saying you don’t like millions of people who you could not name or give any insight into beyond the fact that they’re liberal. I’ve always thought it was pretty unfortunate to lump massive groups of people together and assume they all think, feel, and act the same based on one thing that they all share.... but hey, who am I to try to change your “core beliefs and values.”
I don't agree with you. Saying I don't like liberals is saying I don't like the failed political ideology they profess to follow. I do believe that liberals don't have the ability to grasp the concepts of hypocrisy or double standards. "can actually learn things from people who are different than yourself" (Your words) Is this what happens when conservative speakers are invited by students to speak at a college campus, but because they don't believe in the failed political ideology of liberalism, the liberals feel justified in rioting and preventing them from speaking. Again, an understanding of hypocrisy and double standards is applicable in this situation. Christians lose their business because they refuse to bake a gay wedding cake. Muslims do the exact same thing, and no liberal says anything. Again, hypocrisy and double standards. I will listen to everything you say. I doubt you would say anything to change my mind. (your words) "It takes a lot of self-awareness and security to be able to consider that maybe you don’t already have everything figured out and that there’s always room to grow." If this were true, liberals would be paying attention to the many successes of President Trump. But the hypocrisy and double standards of this failed political ideology seems to always get in the way."
The ability to recognize one’s own hypocrisy is a struggle for many and is certainly not exclusive to liberals. I do think that liberals can be hypocrites and inconsistent with their standards, just as conservatives can be. To say you don’t like one group because of that but don’t hold the other accountable for it is, um, hypocritical.
Saying “I don’t like liberals” is not a commentary on a subset of ideas. You’re talking about people, not ideas. Have you never actually met a liberal you liked/could get along with? I just can’t imagine saying “I don’t like conservatives” because people can be so vastly different even if they align politically, and I know plenty of conservatives that I like despite disagreeing with them on politics. I also know plenty that I don’t like, but it’s not as a result of their conservatism... ultimately one’s political affiliation is one part of many that make someone an individual and their general likability does not usually hinge on it.
Unfortunately, I'm related to some serious liberals. I have to deal with them often. I'm still working on showing my relatives the errors of their ways. We have a rule of not discussing politics at family events. When not at a family events it is another story, but still we usually don't talk politics.
Most of my family are conservatives. I don’t see it as something I “have to deal with” because I love them and they’re good people. It’s not the freaking plague it’s just a difference of opinions. I don’t mind talking politics with them, I think it’s always interesting to share ideas. Some positions I will never understand but that’s okay, I know they can’t always see where I’m coming from either. Sometimes it’s best to just accept that you’re never going to agree on something and move on and find common ground elsewhere... to hold people in such contempt over politics seems exhausting.
Wow. So you equate close mindedness with some type of strength of character? Close mindedness, in my opinion, shows weakness. One should be open to other ideas and the reasons those ideas were formulated. I cannot believe anyone would openly admit that they are not only close minded, but are proud of it.
It's not difficult when you have faith in what you believe and know it to be true. Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini also had ideas believed my millions. I am not open to their ideas. As a matter of fact, I am pretty closed minded to them. They all shared traits of liberalism.
America is so polarized that it can no longer see through the fog of ideological hatred created by the media , -- I've said this too many times but ONCE upon a time -------both parties wanted D.C. cleaned up . Both parties wanted the swamp drained , both parties recognized that the senate and congress needed term limits , real accountability , real people serving in senate and congress !
I am glad Trump came along when he did ,if for NO other reason than to prove that it apparently was the right that wanted that while the left is happy with big ,big big and ineffective , expensive , government "leadership ."
So Archie Bunker in style and delivery, Mike. Are conservatives truly this lame and desperate?
I am going to help bring the licking along next fall that your gang so richly deserves, while you dredge up images of Joe McCarthy. Of course, conservatives neither desire nor consider the inevitability of change, bronze the whale bone corset for posterity's sake.
A mind that you boast about as hermetically sealed? I, too, find that as nothing to brag about. Sclorotic thinking from the right just as you describe, will help work, inadvertently,to promote the Progressive cause.
We shall see what happens in the fall. The Democrats have no platform other than hate Trump. That's it and I really believe that won't do the job. As someone with relatives who lived under the former communist Soviet Union, I can tell you the similarities between it and liberalism would shock you. I don't expect liberalism/communism to go away. I believe it will always be challenged by people with a desire to live freely.
Here is another example of the hypocrisy of liberals. I wonder what bothered them more. The fact he was a Trump supporter or the fact he was a black man who was a Trump supporter.
"The 22-year-old Trump supporter who was verbally attacked by the staff at a Miami Cheesecake Factory restaurant over his “Make America Great Again” hat described the moment as “just really wrong” in an interview on Wednesday's edition of “Fox and Friends.”
“They all started getting behind us, and one of the [workers] was saying, ‘I’ll knock the hat off his head, I’ll hit him so hard that I’ll knock his hat off,’" recalled Eugenior Joseph of Sunday’s incident."
“At the end of the day, this isn’t, to me, it isn’t about being black, white, or race — anybody could have worn the hat, a white man, a Latino man. It’s just about freedom of speech. This is America. Everybody should be entitled to their own opinions and their own beliefs. If somebody wants to wear the MAGA hat, you should support their decisions.
http://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/2018/ … wrong.html
"Here is another example of the hypocrisy of liberals. I wonder what bothered them more. The fact he was a Trump supporter or the fact he was a black man who was a Trump supporter."
Neither one, as you say it is a free country, you can believe what you want. But don't give us all the impression that intolerance only exists from the left, on the contrary, far from it.
So, the conclusion has to be that liberals can not accuse anyone else of being intolerant, since they themselves are proven time and time again to be intolerant of others. Should liberals admit such a thing, it may lessen the heightened level of hypocrisy associated with them.
One of my favorites is "no whites" day at Evergreen College. Ah, the word racist has not been used to describe this event. I will. This is racist.
"Students at the Olympia, Washington-based public school have organized a three-day “Day of Absence” observance that includes a mix of events on and off campus. Some gatherings are advertised as open to all skin colors and others ask that only POC, or People of Color, attend "
And there are so many other examples. Yes, liberals should quit thinking of themselves as open and tolerant of others. They only tolerate those who agree with them.
Correction ;-- You only hear talk about tolerance when liberals come at the right from a defeated position , lost over 1000 nationwide seats in 2016-Loss , lost the white house - Loss , lost the senate - Loss , losing congress -Loss , losing the Trump derangement game with media -Loss , lost the Hillary coronation -Loss ....... Now , just when was the last time you heard the liberal ideology talking about tolerance from the right ?
During the GW Bush years .....? Uhhh nope . They are NOW seeing a big blue wave in November turn into a small aqua colored ripple .........So Now they are interested in tolerance ?
Mike, I don't trust Right winged oriented publications no more than you would give credibility to the Huff Post or Salon.
However, going to what I consider a neutral source, I was appalled.
What happened here is completely inappropriate and I would have grounds for complaint as an Anglo student.
"Jews will not replace us". What did that chant mean from your extremist right groups during the Virginia protests last year?
You've got the NAZI's the KKK any number white supremacists organization, these are clearly rightwing oriented, make no mistake about this. Your groups are associated with McVey and Dylan Roof. The militias are right wing and white supremacist, where is there anything comparable by the left?
There are a number of anti-white, Christian groups. Here are two of the best known liberal hate groups. Interesting you don't see conservatives trying to shut down liberal speakers.
New Black Panther Party
25-year-old Micah Xavier Johnson shot and killed five police officers and injured seven others supported armed black militia groups
“However, many black separatist groups are explicitly anti-white and tend to share a mistrust of government, according to Ms Beirich.
Some groups are also anti-Semitic and anti-gay, which could be attributed to rhetoric by the long-standing NOI.”
“These false Jews promote the filth of Hollywood that is seeding the American people and the people of the world and bringing you down in moral strength. … It's the wicked Jews, the false Jews, that are promoting lesbianism, homosexuality", Mr Farrakhan said in 2000”
Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) which has been designated as terrorist organizations.
CAIR, an Islamic civil liberties advocacy group, was named as an unindicted co-conspirator in the 2007 trial of the Holy Land Foundation in Texas. Officials from the Holy Land Foundation were later found guilty of diverting funds to Hamas (A world sponsor of terror).
There is also the refreshing hatred of white people publically spoken by “La Raza”
"we are killing off the entire evil white race by making them addicted to cocaine, crack, spiked marijuana, spice, meth, heroin, hash, and other poisons, to kill them."
And there are so many anti-christian groups from the left...they number in the hundreds.
“some people associated with its 200 intolerant groups have “committed violent crimes against Christians and faith-based groups,” and that “physical and profane verbal assaults against Christians” may also be used as “angry methods of intimidation.”
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 … identifie/
SO...why do liberals believe they are tolerant and accepting of people with views different than theirs? The reality is liberals are tolerant and accepting only of views they agree with.
ALSO...I'm sure you know the KKK was started by the Democrat party and in the 1990s Democrat senators were serving who had held some pretty high ranks in the KKK. Look up Robert Byrd. The 1966 state Democrat party logo in Alabama even had the words " White Supremacy" in it.
Alright, Mike, let's cut to the chase, shall we? Instead of discussing apples and oranges, let's attempt to objectify points in this discussion.
this is an excerpt from a Magazine article
https://www.npr.org/2017/06/16/53325561 … nce-rising
But those who track extremism say that while there are a few far-left groups that raise red flags, their numbers remain small.
Much of the conservatives' anger has been aimed at "Antifa" — short for "anti-fascists." Antifa are loosely affiliated groups of mostly young people, mainly on the West Coast but spreading around the country
(I interject by saying it is easy have issues with conservatives and rightwingers, they are SO annoying.
Still, their numbers are tiny in relation to the mainstream political left. And, say experts, it's misleading for right-wing groups to suggest that the Antifa are more violent than right-wing extremists.
"The far left is very active in the United States, but it hasn't been particularly violent for some time," says Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow at the Anti-Defamation League's Center on Extremism.
He says the numbers between the groups don't compare.
"In the past 10 years when you look at murders committed by domestic extremists in the United States of all types, right-wing extremists are responsible for about 74 percent of those murders," Pitcavage says.
You have to go back to the 1970s to find the last big cycle of far-left extremism in the U.S. Both Pitcavage and McNabb say we have been in a predominantly far-right extremist cycle since the 1990s — the abortion clinic bombings and Oklahoma City, for example. And, more recently, racially motivated attacks such as the one at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, the mass shooting at a black church in Charleston, S.C., and last month's stabbings on a commuter train in Portland.
We are just talking about homicides, and there is a greater probability that the right wing fanatics exceed their counterparts on the left in regard to less heinous crimes as well, is that not a logical presumption? So, when it comes to violence and intolerance, the Right remain the experts. In spite of this, I acknowledge that the Left is taking up to tools of violence so deftly used by the Right for so long. WE don't want to imitate them.....
I don't know why conservatives always speak of the Democrat party allegiances from the perspective of the 19th century? Gosh, that long ago, even the Republican Party could be called 'progressive'. But that was then and this is now, and today's GOP is not your great, great, grandfather's party. The last of the Democratic party's resistance to its new progressive face was found in local and state politics and that was pretty much gone by the late sixties and early 1970's. So, it is clear to most of us who represents the "dark side" of the force, within say the last 60-70 years, yes?
Lets just say it proves my point that liberals should never believe they have the moral high ground on any topic and in any way. Facts are facts, they are just as bad as those they condemn. This makes my point of hypocrisy and double standards. I find liberals annoying because of their shallow understanding of events and self-righteous attitude.
You want me to read NPR (a far left publication) and I will see your NPR and raise you an article from "The Atlantic."
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar … ft/534192/
...and I'll double you with a National Review article about the racism of the Democrat party.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/06/ … na-charen/
I would also like to point out that events of the events of the 19th century motivate many members of the liberal establishment to justify negative social behavior today.
So Yes people liberals need desperately a 12 Step Program for their Trumpilectomy's , So for old times sake - I just spent an hour reviewing election night major news media outlets predict , bolster , brag , micro analyze , hyper- analize , slow walk , fast walk , the Clinton -Trump election and resulting map changes and ultimately endure hand wringing televised mental meltdowns .
My question , What has changed today , where is the media today , where are the Clinton followers today , where are the Trump Deranged today ?
Pretty much right where they were on election night .
God forbid anyone get over the behavior of this deplorable person. Yep, you baited me and I responded. Someone has to.
Can’t we all just agree that extremism is bad whether it’s coming from the right or the left? Don’t the vast majority of us fall somewhere in between? Why can’t we just to try to have respectful and productive discussions with each other rather than repeatedly pointing out the worst examples from each side that don’t tend to represent most of us?
Spanky and his fans set the standards most of them are now complaining about. What's the big deal?
Mike, Aime may have a point we are juxtaposed in this debate. She is right that neither of us like extremes from either side. I just leave you with this, how many right wing generated Alan Bergs, Murrah Building scale attacks do you recall being fomented by the left within the last quarter century? I don't have to think to hard to come up with examples, but from or in behalf of the Left, since the 1960's, I am hard pressed.
Reminds me of one of my favorite movies "The St Valentine's Day Massacre", the classic line by Bugs Moran, Chicago Mobster, who just barely missed being killed in the garage based ambush orchestrated by Al Capone there in 1929. When discussing the aftermath he said that "only Capone kills like that". Take out Capone and put in Rightwingers, lots of collateral damage.
Aime, this is a debate on a concept or two, the underpinnings of the minority of radical groups will affect the lives of larger groups of people in time if not staunched, so this discussion is hardly insignificant. Of course, most of us are not represented but the danger remains. So let us put our concerns on the table and discuss thoroughly and openly. The struggle between opposing ideologies needs to and must continue.
Yes, it’s problematic and needs to be addressed. But why can’t we address extremism as a whole rather than pointing fingers? What does it help at all to have two sides going back and forth saying “you have way more extremists!” “no YOU have way more extremists!”?
I tend to think that extremism is not typically driven by political affiliation, religion, etc. but that those things are used as an excuse for unstable minds to do and/or say terrible things. I don’t think liberals are inherently dangerous, I don’t think conservatives are inherently dangerous, I don’t think Muslims are inherently dangerous, I don’t think white men are inherently dangerous. I think all kinds of people have the potential to be dangerous and they find ways to justify it. Nitpicking with each other which “side” gets used as justification more often is pointless as it’s not addressing a cause.
I would counter with all of the race riots and the death and damage those caused since the 1960s is far more deadly than once incident. I was in Los Angeles for the last 1992, which could have been prevented but for a police chief who refused to work with the Los Angeles mayor, who didn't see what was wrong, but, that's another story. Glad to be a gun owner during that time...trust me. It's a good point we don't like extremists. I accept they are on both sides. My point is that liberals shouldn't believe they are some how morally superior to conservatives, because they really are not. That's my issue. With that said, Hearing the stories from relatives who lived under the Communist USSR and the similarities to liberalism strikes a deep nerve. Have you seen what liberal policies have done to Venezuela? Price controls, factory nationalizations, government takeovers of food distribution, health care and more. At one time, this was a very wealthy country.
Great response, Mike, you're a good egg. I remain in conflict, but it is never anything personal. I have to be always willing to at least listen the other side even though much of their positions remain unfathomable. I guess it will be like the optical illusions of the blue verses the yellow dress that was in the news 3 or4 years ago. We look at the same image and you see one color and I see the other, who can figure why?
Glad you did not get hurt in the 1992 melee. If I recall, it was in response to an Acquital given police officers in the beating of Rodney King. I did not like how that rolled out. But, I don't like the fact that too many of our folks engage in rioting. I loathe people who cannot control themselves and are lacking in self discipline. You don't get mad, in cases like this, you carefully plan how to get even in a way that does not come back on you. I figured that out in the aftermath of a smaller scale riot in our Denver community after the MLK assassination when I asked my dad what was the point of tearing down our own stuff?
We lefties can be self-righteous at times, ok. I am neither a communist or even a socialist. I believe in capitalism with a leash, how tight or how much slack that would be acceptable is what we debate. I prefer a tighter one. I don't think we are interested in a "command economy", but I don't want those with the most money and power dominate the rest of us either in virtually every aspect of our lives. I see that as the desired goal of the political Right. Capitalism promotes greed and that has to be countered by Government ( counterbalancing forces) when the greed of the capitalist is contradictory to other interests and concerns within society. I don't know if that 'one time' would have been amenable to most of us who were not wealthy during that one time.
You don't sound like a lefty...you sound like you're left of center on the political scale. I would hope you some day appreciate the value of greedy capitalists. Why is the United States always a leader in technical innovation as well as medical advancements and more? Greedy capitalists. I don't think Henry Ford, J. Paul Getty, Thomas Edison (who stole most people's inventions but was able to successfully bring them to the masses) as well as Bill Gates, Steven Job and others were motivated to feel good about themselves. They were greedy capitalists. Every time you use a computer, fly in a plane, drive a car or even have a burger at McDonald, it is courtesy of a greedy capitalist. Our country has the largest and most successful economy in the world because we have the best greedy capitalists. We need to encourage their desire to improve things for financial reward. We all benefit from it. I believe in limited government. I also know the power of people to cause significant harm to any company who does wrong. Boycotts, protests and more have put companies in line with what is right. No matter how much power you think a company has, it can be destroyed by the people who use their products and services. So, there you have my take on things. My liberal relative believe I can't be liberal because I'm not attractive enough. I tell them they can't be conservative because their minds haven't developed to a point where they can comprehend the concepts. Don't worry about very wealthy people. I've known many and they tend to lead very stressful lives.
Interesting to hear liberals say right wingers are what , more violent ? More Riotous ? More violent extremist's ? Kill more cops ? Burn more cities down ? I've never heard of a conservative campus rioting ? Sorry, there is no comparison between the two ideologies violent tendencies .
It is liberals [socialists ] who're generally more energetic as political activists ,yet they just love to distort the very meaning of a particular ideology when it comes to the very conscientiousness of their own guilty conscious , OF course conservatives are more violent ! Of course rural Americans are the rioters , of course older Americans are more violent , uhhhh what ?
I think the shifting of democrats to the left naturally makes them far more understanding of and gives them a tendency towards guilt-explaining of their own violent tendencies . Conservatives would probably rather go fishing or hunting while the new liberals would rather tear something to pieces .
Simple truth .
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