Do you think Donald Trump's record on Immigration is Good?

1. 85

   My Esotericposted 6 years ago

   Here is part of what Donald Trump has accomplished on immigration.  Trump supported Bolton in a cussing and shouting match with Chief of Staff Kelly where Trump and Bolton think DHS was TOO SOFT on immigration.
   
   * Effectively banned Muslims from entering America
   * Effectively banned refugees from any country from entering America
   * Working hard to kick almost all legal refugees our of America
   * DHS stole (kidnapped) children from parents
   * DHS still are housing kids in pens
   * DHS made babies defend themselves, without legal help, in court. (YES, that is true)
   * DHS made American immigration policy (once thought the best in the world) subject to multiple investigations by global human and civil rights agencies
   * DHS deports American soldiers who fought to protect America
   * Wasting money by deploying National Guard to basically do nothing in "protecting" the border
   * Ignoring the rule of law by disobeying court orders regarding immigration
   * Putting America's economy at great risk by trying to curtail legal immigration, the only source for keeping America's population, and therefore demand, growing.

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   1. 89

      wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Ignoring the tremendous spin and outright lies, he's done pretty well.  Far from perfect - that requires congress to act and they refuse for fear of losing votes - he's still done considerably better than prior presidents.

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      1. 85

         My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         What spin, Wilderness? What lies?  I can prove everyone of those statements.
         
         Prove to me how any of those are false, beyond using less polite terminology. 
         
         Obama was hugely successful at curtailing illegal immigration.  Show me how Trump accomplish as dramatic a result.

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         1. 89

            wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            "I can prove everyone of those statements."
            
            Great.  You can begin with the first one, by showing that every Muslim from every country, including Saudi Arabia, is banned from entering the country.  Quote the EO, please, or list the law.
            
            You can then proceed to the second one, proving that no refugee has been accepted this year into the country.
            
            When you have proven those two to be true, you can proceed to the fourth one and show that Trump kidnapped any children at all.  This time without the spin that providing homes while parents are incarcerated fits the definition of "kidnapped" being attached.  Videos, please, of Trump illegally snatching children and spiriting them away.
            
            We'll ignore #3 as you cleverly left a couple of loopholes: the working "hard" and the "almost".  A single word and a single "refugee" found to be a terrorist would satisfy you there, as would any claim by any person that they deserve refugee status without ever having it.

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            1. 85

               My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               The words were "* Effectively banned Muslims from entering America".  The words were NOT "that every Muslim from every country, " 
               
               His campaign promise was:
               
               “Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.”
               
               The effective of his EOs and other policies is to reduce the immigration of Muslims into America to a mere trickle of what it was.  This is from one of those right-wing institutes who mostly do great work (I occasionally find a few flaws in their studies), the CATO Institute. https://www.cato.org/blog/us-approves-f … -travelers
               
               Your claim "We'll ignore #3 as you cleverly left a couple of loopholes: the working "hard" and the "almost". " points out the great difference between you and me - I live in the gray world of reality and you live in a binary world of unreality.
               
               For example, you will fault me if I say "The sun will probably come up tomorrow" (which is true, we don't know if it will).  You want me to say "The sun will come up" or "The sun will not come up". 
               
               Since I live in a gray world and know extremely few things are binary, the word "effectively" fairly represents my meaning.  If Trump could ban ALL Muslims, he would, but since he can't, he does his best to meet his goal.
               
               The same with the rest of them.
               
               Let's pick on the word "Kidnapped", which I knew would be pointed out.  The definition is "take (someone) away illegally by force, typically to obtain a ransom."
               
               What Trump did with the kids meets that definition save the term "illegally".  What was the ransom you ask?  Don't come to America or Leave America.  As to whether it was legal or not, common sense says it is, unless you can point to the law on the books that allows ripping the kids out of mothers arms in that specific situation.  The legality of the action is currently going through the courts.

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               1. 89

                  wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  "The effective of his EOs and other policies is to reduce the immigration of Muslims into America to a mere trickle of what it was."
                  
                  Thank you.  The first statement is proven false, by you.
                  
                  "What Trump did with the kids meets that definition save the term "illegally"."
                  
                  Thank you.  That is proven false, then, by you.  Notwithstanding that spin that obeying the law is the ransom, it is still false.
                  
                  You forgot to address that no refugees are being allowed to enter - I assume that you accept that one to be false as well.
                  
                  Do we need to go through all of them, one by one, and have you prove them false yourself?

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   2. 0

      Hxprofposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I say he's done pretty well - he's made an effort to secure our southern border - the last president to accomplish anything there, at all, was Clinton.  What Trump lacks is support from Congress.

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      1. 85

         My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         Obama had secured the border better than any president before him without making America look like it was a third world country in the way it treats people. 
         
         Even with his strong-arm, anti-human rights tactics, data is starting to show the border is not more secure under Trump but less so.
         
         Bottom-line, his overall immigration policies has destroyed America's "shining city on a hill" image professed by Reagan as well as put America on very shaky long-term economic grounds by setting the stage for real population decrease, much like what Russia has been experiencing for a decade or more.
         
         It has been several years now that second generation people living in the U.S., whether legal or illegal, produce enough babies to replace those who die.  It has only been immigration that has fueled increased demand from increased population growth.  Trump is trying hard to kill all immigration.

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         1. 0

            Hxprofposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            During the recession starting in 2007, the numbers of illegal border crossings began to decline, so Obama benefited from that.  He did increase the number of border agents, but it's hard to say if that helped.
            
            "Even with his strong-arm, anti-human rights tactics, data is starting to show the border is not more secure under Trump but less so."  Trump's tactics, like them or not, are necessary to discourage illegal immigration.  What's needed for effect is stronger security, and for that he needs the help of Congress.
            
            Trump, in my view, gets a bit too worked up about legal immigration, though I would like to see some of our current legal immigration numbers shift over to merit based immigration, as Trump is proposing.

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            1. 89

               wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               If we're going to credit Obama with decrease illegal border crossings, we'll have to credit him with the recession, for it was lack of jobs more than anything that was the cause of any reduction.  Certainly ignoring the law with DACA did nothing to reduce it!
               
               The only thing I've seen Trump worked up about re: legal immigration is the change to merit based.  And that I wholly agree with; the US cannot be the dumping ground to sustain and support the worlds population forever.

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               1. 85

                  My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  No, Wilderness, that is not true.  While the recession did lower immigration a little, as I said earlier, it would have gone up to pre-recession levels.  It really was Obama's policies that drove illegal immigration so far down. 
                  
                  All Trump has done is screw everything up and make America Terrible in everybody's eyes except core Trump supporters.  He definitely has continued Obama's record of decreasing illegal immigration.

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                  1. 89

                     wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     You have an opinion, I have an opinion.  Yours seems based on political desires, mine on economic realities.
                     
                     Yes, Obama's policies did cut the number of illegal border crossings a small amount...as he took millions off the rolls of illegal aliens without permission to stay.

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               2. 0

                  Hxprofposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Agreed - we can't be a dumping ground.  I pointed out that I think Trump is correct in wanting merit based legal immigration; I differ with him in that I don't think we need to go completely that way.

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                  1. 89

                     wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     As I understand his desires, Trump would leave considerable refugee immigration.  IMO that is enough - there is no reason to include more than that in the number of immigrants we expect to support.  Let the rest of the immigrants support the US rather than the other way around.

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               3. 0

                  promisemposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Obama started the recession in 2008 even though he came into office in January 2009?
                  
                  How did he do that?

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               4. 85

                  My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  I assume your "dumping ground" comment referred to your immigrant relatives?

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            2. 85

               My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               You are correct about the recession but that would have gone back up.  It kept falling, however, a lot after that. http://cmsny.org/publications/warren-undocumented-2016/
               
               Personally, I don't see a major problem in America with illegals.  As a group, they are less violent than Americans, more prone (for obvious reasons) to follow our laws than Americans, they are often better citizens than Americans.  Most studies cannot come up with serious downsides to having them in our country.  In my opinion, the laws need to be changed to take advantage of all of the pluses.
               
               I agree, Trump gets too worked up about it.  But, the fact is, illegal immigrants are more beneficial to America than harmful.  At the very least, they add to demand by increasing our population and they do not suppress wages in any significant way because they perform work red-blooded, patriotic Americans refuse to do.
               
               http://cmsny.org/publications/warren-undocumented-2016/

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               1. 0

                  Hxprofposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  I think you're right about the recession - something Obama did is working, and perhaps in part it was the increase in border patrol agents.
                  
                  You don't see "a major problem in America with illegals".  I do, still.  The economic issues seem to be, primarily, for the bottom 9-10% of the economic ladder, who were losing work to illegals, and the increased burden on states.  The other issue is regards sovereignty - we have laws in place determining who can come in and when.  When someone crosses our borders illegally, they've just violated our sovereignty  I'm not inclined to give anyone a free pass once they've done that.  When we did it in the 80's it was a bad idea; it's a bad idea now.  That kind of thing sets a precedent: Hey, we're not serious about our laws, so go ahead, ignore them, come in whenever you please.  Nope.  Not going to fly with me, and I share the views of many conservatives.

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                  1. 85

                     My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     I would need to see studies that show American's are losing jobs to illegals.
                     
                     There is this - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-im … ers-taxes/
                     
                     and this - Given that unemployment is less than 4%, those Americans, for the most part, who want jobs, have them; even on the low end of the scale.
                     
                     As to so-called sovereignty, change the laws like the bipartisan Senate did back in the Bush administration.  I would rather give up a few misdemeanors in order to get a significant economic advantage (see link above).
                     
                     Also, the sovereignty argument is simply hyperbole, a deflection, an emotional argument with no merit.  In no way, when somebody crosses our border illegally is our sovereignty threatened.  It is the same before and after the border crossing.
                     
                     Just like when you get caught speeding. If you get caught, it is a misdemeanor and you pay a fine.  If you don't, you just got away with breaking the law.  When you cross the border illegally, you just created a misdemeanor.  If you get caught, you are sent back and maybe pay a fine.  If you don't, then you just got away with breaking the law.  Personally, I don't see a difference other than in one case you are a citizen and in the other you are not.

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                  Hxprofposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  One last thing - as far as work that Americans won't do, there are ways to legitimately handle that.  We have no need for illegal labor.

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                  1. 75

                     Castlepalomaposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     I'm so happy to be employed by the human race, not by Trump anymore.
                     
                     Or we all would look like Norwegian.

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                  2. 85

                     My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     See my link above.  Bottom line, without illegal immigration (under current laws, but those can be changed) the American economy and businesses would suffer a lot.

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                     1. 89

                        wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                        Baloney.  That's all there is to that: baloney.  It's like saying that illegals only take jobs that Americans won't...while pretending that the masses of them in the building trades aren't there.

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                        1. 85

                           My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                           You can chose to not believe the facts or not, but you can't prove it isn't true while this article, and many others, do.
                           
                           Take all of the illegals out of building and farming and two things will happen; 1) those industries will collapse and 2) prices will skyrocket.

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                           1. 89

                              wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                              No one will ever prove it to you anyway, for you will never acknowledge what others see.
                              
                              Yes, prices will rise without the illegals.  That's a given, as American employers are forced to obey the law and paying reasonable wages.  That isn't going to collapse industries, though - not when those industries are producing necessities, not luxuries.  And as those prices rise, the total cost to the country will fall as welfare payments fall, school needs fall, police and prison needs fall, unemployment costs fall - all the methods that the country finds necessary to support those illegals that cannot earn their own way through employers paying illegal wages. 
                              
                              It's all part of the "big picture" that liberals refuse to look at, and one of the ways they promote the myth that illegal aliens are good for the country.

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                                 My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                                 The problem is, WIlderness, your "big picture" is not based on reality or facts.
                                 
                                 What luxuries are you talking about?  Food? Shelter?
                                 
                                 Large businesses don't pay reasonable wages to anybody, let alone illegals working the fields. and then there is this - https://qz.com/939526/things-have-been- … mmigrants/
                                 
                                 Illegals don't use welfare, yet illegals pay taxes. So, if they stop paying taxes (because they are not here) then to provide you the services you are accustomed to, YOUR taxes will go up.
                                 
                                 Illegals are more law abiding that legal residents so your point about more police is not valid.
                                 
                                 I deal with facts and you deal with fact-less right-wing propaganda points. Unsubstantiated points like:
                                 
                                 * Illegals cause more crime - they don't
                                 * Illegals use more welfare - they don't
                                 * Illegals take non-illegals jobs - they don't
                                 * Illegals place a substantial burden on our school system - they don't.
                                 * Illegals use more American resources than they pay in taxes - they don't.
                                 
                                 Since I can't prove a negative.  Back up those claims of yours with real facts.

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                                 1. 89

                                    wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                                    "* Illegals cause more crime - they don't"
                                    
                                    It takes exactly one illegal committing exactly one crime to cause more crime than if there were no illegals.  Is that your claim - that not a single illegal alien ever commits a crime?
                                    
                                    "* Illegals use more welfare - they don't"
                                    
                                    Illegals most certainly DO use welfare, in spite of liberal claims to the contrary.  Sometimes legally, sometimes illegally, but they use it.  And they also cause others to use it, by taking jobs from them.
                                    
                                    "* Illegals take non-illegals jobs - they don't"
                                    
                                    Right.  They just take jobs that citizens could and would fill if the illegal were not there.  That has to be the silliest statement you've made yet.
                                    
                                    "* Illegals use more American resources than they pay in taxes - they don't."
                                    
                                    This has to tie for the silliest statement.  Half the country contributes nothing substantial to the needs of the nation, yet illegals earning a portion of what that half does, does contribute, and contributes more than their requirements.  There can't be a thinking person in the country that can actually follow that logic.

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                     2. 0

                        Hxprofposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                        Esoteric, businesses that can't find employees to work in a given industry are allowed to go to the Feds and say "we need people".  The Feds can then issue work visas for people to come in and work those jobs.  We don't need people here illegally - not now, not ever.

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2. 60

   Live to Learnposted 6 years ago

   Looking at the official statistics for immigrating in 2017, it appears you are misinformed or purposely misleading.
   
   Watching the recent events on the Mexican border I will say bemoaning stringent procedures for people attempting unlawful entry from our southern border is silly. We don't owe anyone entry. There are rules. You don't get to the front of the line by breaking them.
   
   If you want to complain about immigration, start with the Congress. Trump is merely attempting to enforce laws on the books where our southern border is concerned.
   
   And, the chart for legal immigration in 2017 shows a plethora of people admitted from predominantly Muslim countries.

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      My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I would be interested in seeing those charts about the "plethora" from mid-2017 through 2018.  I couldn't find any.
      
      I actually don't complain about immigration, I don't see it as a problem.  Instead, I see it as being helpful.  As to Congress, they had a bipartisan solution under President Bush.  Problem is, the soon to be Trump acolytes in the House refused to bring it to a vote.  So this whole mess sits directly in the hard-right's lap.  Trump didn't HAVE TO kill the Dreamers, yet he did.  So that whole debacle is his fault and problem.
      
      Trump is not enforcing laws, he is making them up by EO and guidance from Sessions.  The laws were working fine before Trump.
      
      Of course we don't OWE anyone entry, nobody says we do.  BUT, in order to be good human beings and live up to the America ideals Trump does not believe in, it is always good to help those in need.

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         Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         Just Google immigration rates us 2017. Go to the DHS site.

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         1. 85

            My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            I did, and the tables you are allowed to look at deal with green cards, naturalization and similar entries.  Most who were already in the pipeline.  2018 data will be more interesting.  If the figures continue the trend, then your point is made.
            
            Egypt? - 18% decrease
            Yemen - 54% decrease.
            Indonesia - 10% decrease
            Iraq - 25% decrease
            Oman - 10% decrease*
            Pakistan - 10% decrease
            Qatar - 18% decrease*
            Ethiopia - 11% increase
            Somalia - 6% increase
            Iran - 4% increase
            Syria - 22% increase
            Turkey? - 8% increase
            Saudi Arabia - n/c
            Jordan - n/c
            
            Based on Table 3. Did I forget any?
            * very small numbers
            
            But why are such tables as:
            
            * Refugee Arrivals: Fiscal Years 1980 to 2017
            * Individuals Granted Asylum Affirmatively or Defensively: Fiscal Years 1990 to 2017
            
            not available for review?

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3. 0

   Ed Fisherposted 6 years ago

   Obama , The only president to ever fully destroy a surging "war economy" , something most incoming presidents historically claimed as their own creation .

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4. 0

   Ed Fisherposted 6 years ago

   We all  KNOW there will come some form of amnesty that will likely fill all of the "unfilled job market " ,..... How convenient ! No surprises there , especially that even Reagan gave an amnesty .   
   
   Sorry democrats , No more easy voter role increasings .

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5. 0

   Ed Fisherposted 6 years ago

   This entire thread question is a joke. Why , in two years what president can develope a immigration policy and history long enough to have affected a overall immigration policy ? Especially when you consider the uselessness of the previous president's eight year policy  ?
   
   The OP is looking to blame Trump for less than two years of the last ten or more of inaction by Obama and his entire house?.............Riiiiight !   
   
   If the economic policies of Obama are the reason for a thriving Trump economy as  leftie's state , then the immigration and refugee failures belong to him too.

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