The Value of Immigration

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   Sab Ohposted 14 years ago

   Given all of the very justified concern lately about the dangers and related ills of illegal immigration, I thought we should take a moment to recognize the many benefits and historic importance of legal immigration and successful assimilation. I believe it is and has always been an essential element of the US.

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      TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Yes I agree Sab.
      
      But the problem is people come here and do not want to assimilate. They want to create thier own cultures and communities here. They want to replace America with what ever country they came from.
      
      Asssimilation, has been tossed out the window.
      
      But yes. Legal immigration is one of the greatest aspects of America.

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         Eaglekiwiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Isnt that how America was formed.....by an  integration  of several cutltures?
         
         I cannot help but wonder if the Native Americans felt the same way -

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      prettydarkhorseposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      assimilation and bringing in your own unique culture produces another set of new culture.
      Language is very important, when they come to another place people should learn the local language used not the other way around
      I think what happened and still happening in Arizona is an eye opener, immigration laws should be at place,
      I am for making the illegals legal but they need to work for it in terms of papers,

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         TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Gee...
         
         We are not that far apart then on this issue.
         
         Other than I say no amnesty.
         
         The back of the line is in your own country. So they should go home and apply, there are still children from WWII vets in the phillipines and the pacific who have not recieved thier citizenship.
         
         There is many a person all over the world who has done it right. They are to be punished? Because they didn't sneak over here illegally to be ready for amnesty
         
         Why should the illegals be given first place in line.
         
         You don't get to cut in line.

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            ReuVeraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            It's not always that simple. Sometimes you can't wait in line in your country or if you just get close to American embassy, you'll be in trouble (in totalitarian regimes). So, to save their lives people just had to flee.....
            But then, make yourself legal by proving the facts.
            Amnesty for all illegals- of course not! To legalize those who deserve it- yes, but it is a very slippery road.

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               Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               There is a very, very, very big difference between being an illegal and applying for asylum.

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         ReuVeraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I agree, if someone entered the country illegaly (well, life is life....) try to make yourself legal, by showing your loyalty, hard work, etc.

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            TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            And to hell with all those around the world waiting and who have done it legally?

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               ReuVeraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Why are you trying to get into a fight? You are bumping into unlocked door.
               Remember all those Jewish people who had to flee Soviet Union, or Europeans escaping from communistic regimes. They came as illegals to America, but at once surrendered to the legal powers and made their immigration legal.

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                  Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  I believe the conversation is in regards to 12,000,000 - 20,000,000 illegal immigrants who have been in the country for more than a day and up to 25 or more years.

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   Pandoras Boxposted 14 years ago

   I don't think assimilation means give up your own identity.

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      TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      No it doesn't.
      
      It means to adopt the ways and cultures of your host country.
      
      No one says you cannot teach your children or hold onto your memories.
      
      But if you don't want to assimiliate.... then go back to your own country.
      
      
      Main Entry: 1as·sim·i·late
      Pronunciation: \ə-ˈsi-mə-ˌlāt\
      Function: verb
      Inflected Form(s): as·sim·i·lat·ed; as·sim·i·lat·ing
      Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin assimilatus, past participle of assimilare, from Latin assimulare to make similar, from ad- + simulare to make similar, simulate
      Date: 15th century
      transitive verb
      1 a : to take in and utilize as nourishment : absorb into the system b : to take into the mind and thoroughly comprehend
      2 a : to make similar b : to alter by assimilation c : to absorb into the culture or mores of a population or group
      3 : compare, liken
      intransitive verb
      : to become assimilated
      
      — as·sim·i·la·tor  \-ˌlā-tər\ noun
      
      usage When assimilate is followed by a preposition, transitive senses 2a and 2c commonly take to and into and less frequently with; 2b regularly takes to; sense 3 most often takes to and sometimes with. The most frequent prepositions used with the intransitive sense are to and into.

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         Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Perhaps you should go back to whatever primeval ooze you slithered out from.

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            KFlippinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Ya know, I think none of us would be faced with the argument/the premise of a discussion of 'legal' vs 'illegal' immigration, if we all could go back to the primeval ooze we, or our ancestors, originated from -- since we cannot, or choose not, then, yes, eventuallly immigrants to this country should assimilate at the very least superficially, and that of course does Not include giving up their cultural heritage, never did, doesn't now --
            
            -- but it does include, embracing of the principles of the United States of America, their new home country, not trying to make it what their divorced country could have or should have or they would have it to have been.

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      Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Certainly not.

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         ReuVeraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         You don't have to give up your own identity. Keep your language at home, if you want (we speak three languages at home), keep your traditions (wee cook Russian and Jewish food at home and our friends love it), keep your culture (we always go to watch Russian ballet when they come to our region and many Americans do too).
         This is exactly what makes immigration thing valuable for America- to learn about other cultures.
         BUT! The must is to learn the language of the country you immigrated to. To be loyal to this country. To accept it with love and positive attitude.
         Otherwise, why did you come here?

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            Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            No need to just keep your language at home. Families communicate outside the home too. But for official communication the language of the nation should be expected.

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            TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Reu,  you are a true American.
            
            That is a great view.

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               ReuVeraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Thank you. I am a true American and I take a pride in it. I hurt for this country as every true American does, watching where it tends to go.....
               At the same time I didn't give up on my roots (if you check up my hubs, you'll see that I write a lot about my Israel and Russian heritage).
               But I don't look back, I move on with my country. Keeping my identity of three cultures, I still prefer to associate with local people or if I associate with immigrants, I keep friendship only with positive oriented people, like me. The biggest mistake new immigrants can make- is sticking around other immigrants all the time. Most of them are whiners. To assimilate successfully, you should embrace a new country, get inside into it. Unless you are too old, or have some kind of learning disability, you should learn the English language.
               You Americans don't realize how lucky you are to have America. I can compare, I know.... Just please, don't let this country go into the direction it is heading right now.....

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                  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  "Too old" is no excuse for not learning a language.

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            Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            BUT! The must is to learn the language of the country you immigrated to. To be loyal to this country. To accept it with love and positive attitude.
            Otherwise, why did you come here?
            
            
            The obvious answers are:  The illegal immigrants don't want to be loyal to this country, they don't want to accept this country with love and a positive attitude unless they are able to take advantage of this country which is the reason they came here in the first place!

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   Pandoras Boxposted 14 years ago

   It's no different than the irish, the italians, the jewish, chinese, russian and german and every other culture. They bring it with them, and over the generations we take some of what they offer and they adapt to what others here offer.
   
   Sure they should learn to speak english, or expect trouble getting any service, and obviously they should learn to follow our laws. But to expect them not to create their own cultures and communities here is ridiculous.
   
   Why shouldn't they? Everybody else did, including white europeans. Shoot, we sure didn't assimilate ourselves with the indians did we?
   
   Or is that what you're afraid of? Hah! What comes around goes around huh?
   
   Sorry, but the way you put it is a position I can't agree with. I'm sure you'll come back and tell me that you didn't mean what you wrote.

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      Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Not sure what you're disagreeing with here...

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      foreignpressposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      The American Indian and their coexistence with Earth was doomed. The Russians were coming from the Northwest U.S., the French Canadians from the north, Spanish (Mexicans) from the Southwest U.S., the English from the east. There were numerous cultures permeating the frontier and none of them wanted to make peace with the American Indians. It's unfortunate. But buffalo and other wild game were slowly being driven to extinction -- as was the American Indian.

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4. 61

   TMMasonposted 14 years ago

   Oh yes I am scared.
   
   What is it with you liberals and the fear thing. Are you all so scared of everything that no matter what happens fear is involved. (If not race)
   
   What I want is for my constitution and laws to be upheld. I want those who come here to continue to helo to make us a great nation.
   
   Not another nation.

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   ReuVeraposted 14 years ago

   Actually, America is a country of immigrants. I heard an expression that immigration is as old as America itself.
   As a transplant myself (I survived and thrived two immigrations) I may say that success of any immigration is a positive attitude and acceptance of a country. A new country is a mirror- whatever face you'll mimic, the same you'll get back.  Illegal immigration should be addressed as a crime, period. If a person has a valid reason to flee his own country, he may always apply and America has special programs for refugees.  America is very tolerant and worked out accommodation for family related immigration. 
   And yes, immigrants brought a lot of positive values to America. The most valuable- brains. Many immigrants come here with good education.

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      Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      "Actually, America is a country of immigrants. I heard an expression that immigration is as old as America itself. "
      
      
      Yes and yes

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      Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      "Illegal immigration should be addressed as a crime, period. If a person has a valid reason to flee his own country, he may always apply and America has special programs for refugees.  America is very tolerant and worked out accommodation for family related immigration.  "
      
      Correct, correct, and correct!

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      Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      "And yes, immigrants brought a lot of positive values to America. The most valuable- brains. Many immigrants come here with good education."
      
      Yes, yes, and the ones that we need most - yes. Illegal immigrants? Not so much.

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   Sab Ohposted 14 years ago

   And I have to say that the "you didn't assimilate to the Native Americans" thing really makes no sense.

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   TMMasonposted 14 years ago

   I am not an immigrant. Nor were my parents or grand-parents or thier parents, etc.
   
   So you can take the, "we are all immigrants" babble, and throw it out.
   
   It is a lame duck argument.

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      Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Well if you're 100% native american then i guess you have a right to be displeased with immigration.
      
      
      My disagreement is with the statement:
      
      "But the problem is people come here and do not want to assimilate. They want to create thier own cultures and communities here. They want to replace America with what ever country they came from.
      
      "Asssimilation, has been tossed out the window."
      
      
      I think it's fear-based drivel.

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         TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Assimilation has been tossed out the window. And I am 25% not 100%.

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            Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Assimilation is inevitable. Resistance is futile. Given a few generations, we find ourselves struggling to hold on to our past cultures.
            
            Sorry to hear that the other 75% of your ancestry descends from slaves or perhaps displaced mexicans. It's good to know about your family's past, though.

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         michifusposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         

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            michifusposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            The only Americans who are not immigrants are the 100% native Americans.   All the rest came, took what they wanted and pushed the legal and legitimate residents into the reservations. However that was a long time ago, when things were rather different.
            
            Its the same story with the Australians, unless an Aborigine they are all immigrants. A lot of the English came from across the channel, the West Indians from Africa, white South Africans from the North of Europe etc etc.
            
            Most of us are immigrants if you go back far enough.
            
            However immigration is a good thing.It stimulates the economy, creates diversification, increases competitiveness, and brings new ideas and values to a country preventing stagnation.  America is one of the great examples of this, with such cultural diversity being one of the reasons why it prospers. Naturally immigration does need to be restricted and controlled. Everyone cannot move as they please unfortunately, but properly controlled it is of great benefit.
            
            As for the Amnesty - there is a good argument for doing this. Illegals are in the country like it or not and you wont get rid of them. May as well make them legal, get them paying taxes and enable them to contribute to society.
            
            Of course an amnesty wont stop the steady flow of new illegals into the country to take their place, and may send the message that if you make it across the border you are home and dry, thus fuelling the problem.
            
            No easy solution unfortunately.

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               Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               "The only Americans who are not immigrants are the 100% native Americans.  "
               
               NO, that is not correct.

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         Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         "Well if you're 100% native american then i guess you have a right to be displeased with immigration. "
         
         NO. We are talking about immigration to the United States of America.

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            TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            They cannot help themselves Sab...
            
            If it obfuscates... toss it in.

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            michifusposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            so was I

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               Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Then your comments about Native Americans make no sense.

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                  michifusposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  My point  was that immigration is a good thing if properly controlled and stimulates a country and helps it grow, as you said.
                  
                  It is a point that native Americans may disagree with, given their treatment and also with many indigenous populations which have suffered at the hands of more "civilized" nations which have moved in and taken over, but on the whole great progress can be made.

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                     Eaglekiwiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Yes I agree ,so long as people learn from the past I see that as being a positive step in the right direction ( just my opinion)....
                     
                     Another view I have is this..Government use Imigration as a  massive source of income, exploiting changes ,calling it 'security measures' etc , blah , blah , blah.
                     
                     A part of me sees why it needs 'some' control ,and another part of me would like to see an 'open door policy'
                     
                     Of course no Government would agree on that ,hence my point above, but it sure would save money in wasted incomes paid to Govt workers all across the land in many countries..

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                        michifusposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Open door policy is a great idea, everyone can come and go as they please, unfortunately no one goes and everyone comes. Shame it doesn't work so well in practice.

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                           wildernessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           No it doesn't work.  The end result is the poor and uneducated (translation - "undesirable") move in to the richer areas, but the rich and educated ("desirable") don't.  While it may be in the best interest of both the immigrant and donor country, it is usually not a good thing overall for the receiving country.
                           
                           While this may sound hard or mean, it is still true.  The American economy has no need for large numbers of additional uneducated, unskilled workers that cannot support themselves and their families.  As a whole that kind of labor has been replaced by machinery; what is left can be filled by current Americans.

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                              TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              And the uneducated unskilled illegals go toward the creation of the Socailist welfare state.

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                     TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     "given their treatment and also with many indigenous populations which have suffered at the hands of more "civilized" nations"
                     
                     Thats why America passed the Monroe doctrine. To keep all the indiginies from being overthrown and wiped out.
                     
                     How evil of us.
                     
                     It is a good thing we just stab our allies in the back and kiss our enemies these days. Or the world wouldn't know what side we are on.

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         Bill Millerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I'm 100% "native" American, I think what you mean to distinguish between is aboriginal American or Native American Indian and those who were born here aka native Americans.
         
         Just being anal!

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8. 69

   Cagsilposted 14 years ago

   I am born American. My parents were born here. My grandparents were born here. My grandmother's parents were not born here.
   
   So, by anyone who chooses - I am not technically an American, because my ancestors did originate from America.
   
   However, since I was born on U.S. soil, I am not an immigrant, but a citizen.

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   IzzyMposted 14 years ago

   Sorry for interrupting this thread, but I came across this one today and it suits the topic
   
   
   The latest telephone poll taken by the California Governor's office asked whether people who live in California think illegal immigration is a serious problem: 29% responded, "Yes, it is a serious problem." 71% responded, "No es una problema seriosa."

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      zampanoposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      

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      michifusposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      LOL

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    1) There are not enough legal immigrants coming to this country to offset the future demand we will need for jobs.
    
    California alone has made it abundantly clear that its aging workforce, especially the university educated, cannot be replaced because there are not enough graduates to fill them.
    
    This is why the DREAM Act is such a good idea. It is a win-win for everyone involved.
    
    2) Legal or not, immigrants both generate revenue for local, state, and federal governments.
    
    People pass on the myth that undocumented immigrants are taking American jobs.
    
    The myth was that undocumented don't pay taxes.....what a crock. This false notion has even been expressed here on Hubpages, until myself and others cited sources. Those arguments are still here in the forums section somewhere....
    
    In fact, for those who may recall, it has been shown that the government typically makes more money off undocumented tax payers because these men and women rarely file for earned refunds.
    
    From sales tax to property and income taxes, money is being paid. Take away that revenue and many cities and states will be in even worse trouble.  It is for this reason that part of me wants to see Arizona enforce its new law....I want people to learn what happens to local and state economies when a segment of its population is pushed out.
    
    3) Immigration in the context of American history is largely misrepresented or its legacy is overlooked.
    
    While the American government boostered and enabled millions of immigrants from around the world to flock to the "American Dream" the reality was that Americans did not want to hire freed slaves.
    
    Instead of hiring such a person, Chinese were imported (shortly after the end of the Civil War) to sharecrop in the South.
    
    American farmers and developers, especially throughout Texas, New Mexico, California, valued the labor Mexicans provided as well as the close proximity to the border...which they used to their advantage...
    
    As soon as work was completed the Mexican workers could then be compelled (through a variety of means) to go back to Mexico.
    
    All of this information is widely published and is relatively common knowledge within the circles of people who spend their time studying this realm of American history and international relations....
    
    But schools across America don't talk about this at all.... The immigration stories that are typically told only focus on those who came from overseas, not those who were already here, or brought from Mexico.
    
    4) Assimilation is a false reality.
    
    As mentioned elsewhere, from Chinese, Japanese, and Filipinos, to Armenians, Italians, Dutch and the Irish (among so many others), people have largely maintained their past and then co-opt portions of "Americanism" to suit their purposes.
    
    I have heard Mexican-Americans criticized for waving Mexican flags and actively supporting their youth to speak Spanish.
    
    On the first count, while there is criticism towards Mexican-Americans, there is never any criticism of Irish, Dutch, Italian, Armenian (or others) who do the same thing.
    
    No one should emigrate to a new country just to give up their identity.....and this is something that is not practiced worldwide.
    
    My father was looking to retire abroad a couple years back. He was looking at Costa Rica, and even Mexico...and what he found was that Americans living abroad really don't have to live in places where they must pick up the native language.
    
    Costa Rica is dominated by Americans, who have a huge expatriot community....and English is widely spoken.  No need to "assimilate" to Costa Rica, for America has assimilated the workings of that nation to it......
    
    In Mexico this can also be found. There are many upscale places where English is the dominant language of use...just bring your money.
    
    So, this demonstrates that there is, again, an unequal treatment of people here and abroad....and the main issue is how much money the immigrants have...
    
    The more money you have, the less assimilation you need, and the less criticism you will receive.
    
    Acculturation takes place over time....this is the reality...people become cultural hybrids. I think this is a good thing.
    
    5) Immigrants to the United States face unequal challenges to their arrival.
    
    If one is a Mexican citizen and wants to emigrate to the United States legally they face hurdles that their counterparts from Asia and Europe don't.
    
    While many Mexicans, specifically, have emigrated legally to the United States this has only been because the strict quotas of the past were altered to enable family members of American citizens to move north.
    
    Until that point, or for the immigrant who does not have these connections, there is very little chance of being accepted for immigration.
    
    There is a stark contrast between how the U.S. treats immigrants from nations that it dominates and those who, legally or otherwise, come from places like Cuba, Russia, Vietnam and South Korea....and this has been widely published about as well.
    
    We like to paint "wonderful, welcoming America" to those who come from regions where "leftist" socialism exists, but don't care so much about the immigrants who come from right-wing, American capitalism-based nations.
    
    "Recent immigration patterns are adding new dimensions to Southern diversity. According to Noblit, immigration in the past two decades has come from two sources. First, economic development in the South has attracted highly educated Asian, Muslim, Hindu, and Eastern European immigrants. Second, consistently low unemployment rates have attracted large numbers of Latino immigrants to the South.
    
    There is a need for workers at the lower end of the industrial scale," Noblit says. "Some industries even send buses to Mexico." These immigrants, who once came through the South as migrant workers, now settle permanently. In certain areas - especially rural areas with agricultural industry - the Latino population is beginning to outnumber the black population. Says Noblitt, "Latinos will soon become the largest minority in a number of small towns in North Carolina."" (http://research.unc.edu/endeavors/spr97/south.html)
    
    The story of the American immigrant is largely glossed over into a grand generalized depiction.....which is largely false.
    
    The fractal nature of this process is typically left out, and it is detrimental for our society to continue in this way.

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       michifusposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Wow - that should have been a hub! Well said Mikelong, nice to have an educated and well thought out post  - thanks for adding some facts to this thread
       
       Here in Spain, the country would be in (more of a) mess without illegal immigrants. They perform the jobs that the local population wouldn't dream of doing. Whilst this does leave them at the mercy of exploitation by some employers, they too are an important part of society here.
       
       They recently had an amnesty here in Spain which was, by and large, successful. It was an intelligent move I think.
       
       "The more money you have, the less assimilation you need, and the less criticism you will receive"  - how true that is - No one gives a toss if you keep to yourself and refuse to integrate as long as you have the $$$

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          Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          "Here in Spain, the country would be in (more of a) mess without illegal immigrants. They perform the jobs that the local population wouldn't dream of doing. "
          
          Your national unemployment rate is about double what ours is. You could learn to do those jobs and your country would be in less, not more, of a mess.

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             michifusposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             The reason that unemployment has soared in the past year is due to the global crisis which has hit Spain harder than most. There are many historical reasons for this, far beyond the scope of a forum such as this.
             
             The jobs do not take any learning to do, most of it is very low paid agricultural work. Perhaps you would want your graduates to head off to the fields and toil away, but I for one feel that this would be counter productive after they have invested a considerable amount of time, effort and money in education.
             
             Get the white collar workers into the fields, that will solve Spain's problems! - Maybe that would work in America, I'm not sure - I don't know nearly enough about American politics to be able to comment on that for your side of the Atlantic, but it is certainly not the generally accepted way to tackle unemployment here in Europe.

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                Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Who said anything about white collar workers? Unemployment is even higher among blue collar workers.

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                Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                College educated or not, if you want a job you take whatever job is offered whether or not it pays what you expect or puts you into an office or a field.

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                   michifusposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Of course there comes a point when that it true. I'm not suggesting that an education gives one a right to a good and well paid  job.
                   
                   But It would be a travesty for a nations skilled workers to be confined to the unskilled workforce, as this would not help the recovery process of the country as a whole.

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                      Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      When all of the citizens and legal residents who are 'unskilled' have a job we can start worrying about what sort of job the college educated have.

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                         michifusposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         Unfortunately they cant. Skilled workers will have taken them, leaving the unskilled to have to resort to crime. 
                         
                         Anyway this is rather getting off the point. You started this thread to celebrate immigration did you not?

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                            Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            Indeed I did!

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "There are not enough legal immigrants coming to this country to offset the future demand we will need for jobs."
       
       Unemployment is at about 10%.
       
       
       "California alone has made it abundantly clear that its aging workforce, especially the university educated, cannot be replaced because there are not enough graduates to fill them."
       
       In addition to having high unemployment, we also have the power to increase legal immigration any time we have the political will to do so in a rational manner.

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          TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Stop raising american children to abort thier babies like garbage and the next generation would be fine. But guess what.
          
          You aborted the next generation... or two... three....
          
          Al whole lote of 'em.
          
          Now you want to whine thier are no children in America to replace the aging.
          
          Liberals are truly lost.

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "Legal or not, immigrants both generate revenue for local, state, and federal governments."
       
       And illegal immigrants generate additional costs for local, state, and federal governments

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "While the American government boostered and enabled millions of immigrants from around the world to flock to the "American Dream" the reality was that Americans did not want to hire freed slaves."
       
       And you seem to want to do the same sort of thing today. Unemployment among African Americans is roughly double that of the national average.

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "As mentioned elsewhere, from Chinese, Japanese, and Filipinos, to Armenians, Italians, Dutch and the Irish (among so many others), people have largely maintained their past and then co-opt portions of "Americanism" to suit their purposes."
       
       No they haven't. A few generations in they assimilate as other immigrant populations have and do, including those from Latin America.

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "while there is criticism towards Mexican-Americans"
       
       NO, there is not. Mexican-Americans are as vital and valued a part of our national fabric as any other sort of American (leaving aside for now the whole 'hyphenated' thing).
       
       There is criticism toward illegal aliens wherever they may be from.

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          TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          They don't get that Sab.
          
          It is all about Mexicans to them. But the White non-illegal immigration American is the racist.
          
          I myself believe that a racist, will always make everything about race.
          
          And alot on here fit that bill.

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "If one is a Mexican citizen and wants to emigrate to the United States legally they face hurdles that their counterparts from Asia and Europe don't. "
       
       Bullcrap. Exactly the opposite is true.

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       foreignpressposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Unfortunately mikelong doesn't supply sources to substantiate that long post. It sounds impressive. But it isn't. California has the largest illegal immigrant population. California is broke. Arnold is going to reverse the $20 billion deficit by eliminating welfare and other entitlement programs as he should. But the Dems in Sacramento won't buy it as they will lose the Hispanic vote. In the final analysis, Arizona will rebuild into a more vigorous and fiscally healthy state. California will default.

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    MikeNVposted 14 years ago

    Legal Immigration and Illegal Immigration are two entirely different things... Apples and Oranges.
    
    The media is pretending like Illegals are somehow beneficial.  It's a total scam.
    
    The media refuses to report the TRUTH and the problems that Illegal Immigration has created.
    
    The Federal Government has failed for the past 40 years under both Republican and Democratic Leadership.

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    Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago

    What Mike said .........Its all about the money , but sadly many still have their heads buried in the sand ,or just wont admit to seeing it.
    
    My husband is American , I am a New Zealander, we are quite a boring couple actually, no history of anything notable on record , we just happen to have been born in different countries.Hubby went through the hoops and was accepted under "family sponsorship" while living in New Zealand.
    
    We arrived in the USA as a married  couple,complete with all documents etc, however its been a bureurocratic nightmare, and  know we have been advised we need a lawyer in order for me to complete his appication ( to sponsor me as his WIFE)..
    
    So much for my husbands constituational rights-ha
    life ,liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
    I might  have missed the clause that says'
    USA is run by lawyers..hmmm :rolleyes

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "We arrived in the USA as a married  couple,complete with all documents etc, however its been a bureurocratic nightmare, and  know we have been advised we need a lawyer in order for me to complete his appication ( to sponsor me as his WIFE).."
       
       
       It is a long, laborious, and expensive process for people like you and your husband who want to do things the right way.
       
       It should be much easier for you, because we are eager to welcome you into the family!

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       Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       When will the government understand the impact they create by punishing the just and allowing the guilty to be free?

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    Home Girlposted 14 years ago

    I wish with all my heart that we'd stopped calling names and pointing fingers, but it's probably human nature to do that. Immigrants, natives, americans, non-americants, 100-percenters, 25-percenters... I am 100% legal immigrant in Canada! So what? Do I like being an immigrant? No. Did I do it by my free will? Yes. Do I have three legs and a tail? No. I am just a human being. Relatively smart, moderately beautiful. Comparatively healthy. I came because the system in my old country was falling apart with speed of a rocket and I was scared. Scared to stay and scared to go. I had small kids, I could not possibly risk and stay. I could go anywhere - legally or illegally. Yes, illegally. I preferred and was lucky to do it legal way. Canada let me stay and become a citizen, but deep down I am an immigrant. I speak the language, I understand the culture(hope, I do), but I cannot assimilate. Not because I don't want, but because I can't. I belong to a different system, I grew up and became a person, got education, worked in a completely different social place on Earth, and that place is not there any more! I cannot even come back if I want, everything changed radically. People who are very young, children, they are usually assimilated in 2-3 years completely. People who are older - it's a different story. Yes, you have to learn language and at least try to understand the place you live in, but don't expect too much from poor immigrants, especially if they ARE POOR! They have to work too hard to survive, they do not have time for learning, and they have to cling to their own community to survive. It's a crazy cycle. The problem is we are dealing with people, not just numbers in a big game.

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "don't expect too much from poor immigrants, especially if they ARE POOR! They have to work too hard to survive, they do not have time for learning"
       
       
       I find that statement deeply offensive and patently untrue. It is amazing what hard working immigrants will do to learn when the will to do so is there. It is humbling to behold.

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          TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I grew up in Lynn Massachussetts and every illegal I know is a member of a gang and proudly displays it. They sell enough drugs and pimp enough hoes to supprt 100 families in Mexico.
          
          Don't sling that they come here and have nothing shit. Between welfare and gang-banging they do very well.
          
          They know what pays.

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             Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Hey! I'm originally from the 'City of Sin' myself! Congrats on making it out!

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                TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Hey man thats cool. You too.
                
                Hey is your first name mike?

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                   Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   It is not

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                      TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Thats cool.
                      
                      I grew up knowing a mike and tom Sabio in Lynn.

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                         Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         Lots of Mikes in Lynn. Although nowadays probably more Miguels and Munnys and Nadifs.
                         
                         Times change.

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                            TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            Ain't that the truth.

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       Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       What made you choose to immigrate to Canada?  Whatever it was that appealed to you was your link to assimilation and after you immigrated the appeal faded, for whatever reason (it was too different?) and you (unconsciously?) chose not to assimilate after all.  Besides, it's far more important for the children to assimilate. 
       
       btw - I'm not criticizing, even if it sounds like it - it's just a matter of fact that is seen repeatedly among immigrants.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    'Thats why America passed the Monroe doctrine. To keep all the indiginies from being overthrown and wiped out"
    
    I'm not sure your interpretation of the Monroe Doctrine is accurate.  Check again..
    
    
    
    In addition, illegal immigrants do not come to the United States to take American jobs....to the contrary, businesses and communities create niches for these men and women that otherwise would not exist. 
    
    People keep looking at the immigrant, but many, for some reason, fail to pay as much attention to the other aspects of our national development....."the illegals are bankrupting our cities, states, and nation.." <---a typical anti-immigrant comment.
    
    No...the hundreds of billions we send to pay off sheiks in Iraq and Afghanistan....the hundreds of billions that we give in weapons contracts to Israel and other nations....the no-bid contracts to companies like KBR and Halliburton....this is where our money goes.
    
    But, instead on focusing on the real issues, political cowards go after those who cannot defend themselves.
    
    This is just the way it is.

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       " illegal immigrants do not come to the United States to take American jobs...."
       
       They come for jobs, and they don't care if they are 'taking' them from someone else or not.
       
       
       "the contrary, businesses and communities create niches for these men and women that otherwise would not exist."
       
       Create more opportunities for exploitation, illegality, and the undermining of the US labor pool that otherwise would not exist.

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "instead on focusing on the real issues, political cowards go after those who cannot defend themselves."
       
       
       How dare these "cowards" point out illegal behavior that undermines the nation when there are other issues that some kid in CA thinks are more imporant? It's an outrage I tell ya!

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Sab, a typical, lack of substance response. 
    
    Take note, people, of how willed ignorance tries to pass itself off as reasonable intellect. 
    
    1) The case in point of California is not the larger United States...and you are smart enough to discern between these.
    
    2) This 10% unemployment is based on those filing claims, and not those who have stopped receiving funds and have not found a job.
    
    On another note do these unemployed qualify for the jobs available? Do they have the willingness/ability to do so?
    
    Again, I stated how professional, university degree-based jobs are going to face huge shortfalls in filling these absolutely necessary positions...
    
    And the DREAM Act only pertains to university students who are undocumented...not everyone.
    
    2) All residents of a city, state, and nation create costs on government.
    
    So much money is spent on foster programs alone, and it is increasing, that the "illegals" argument becomes moot.
    
    Again...Sab bypasses where the tax dollars go en masse (Dick Cheney's bank account vis a vis Halliburton no-bid contracts, wars worldwide, "aid" to foreign nations that ends up in the hands of American defense, oil, agricutural supply, and other companies, like Catipillar....examples of this can be seen through the recent weapons package for Israel, monies provided to Brazil for oil infrastructure (which is only given if it is then given back to American companies), and the relationship of IMF loans to companies like Catipillar (probably spelled wrong).
    
    
    There is a redwood tree of spending standing over our heads, and Sab points to the fern growing next to his feet.
    
    Good job!

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "The case in point of California is not the larger United States..."
       
       
       Yeah, unemployment there is even higher than the national average. Way to go! More people to screw out of opportunities just to suit your politics.

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "This 10% unemployment is based on those filing claims, and not those who have stopped receiving funds and have not found a job."
       
       Which means the real number is even higher. According to liberal calculations that means that we should make sure there are even fewer jobs for them to compete for. 

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       " I stated how professional, university degree-based jobs are going to face huge shortfalls in filling these absolutely necessary positions..."
       
       And then you ignored my response. Well done.

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "All residents of a city, state, and nation create costs on government."
       
       And illegal residents create more.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    C'mon Sab....there's no reason for foul language.
    
    Cite some sources...make some kind of intellectial response...ya know...actually make that brain of yours and those fingers do some work.
    
    Don't be lazy.....
    
    Of course, political cowardice might also follow a fear of hard work....
    
    Thank you again Sab for illustrating to others how inept Americans can be....
    
    I have to exist here in order to also show that we are quite the opposite.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Being that you did not comment on any of my other points, Sab, do I take it that you concede to my claims?
    
    
    Where is the substance Sab?

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Keep dancing Sab......you can't pander yourself to truth.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Another substantive response....or the exact opposite.
    
    You obviously are admitting that we are paying by far a greater sum to big business and foreignors who have no connection to us aside from they sitting above oil.
    
    Excellent job....you are proving my points for me.
    
    "some kid in California"
    
    So you respond with a statement that promotes age-based discrimination.....
    
    In terms of what we bring to Hubpages alone you show yourself to be more inmature than I.
    
    
    Again.....Sab diregards the giant sequoia tree to piddle around with crab grass.
    
    This person is a perfect example of the issues one faces when their priorities are backwards.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Obviously you are still around Sab....but choose not to respond to me.   This says much.
    
    On a related note.......you have loved to comment on my youth and apparent lack of age.
    
    Tell me, being that I have never told you my age or birthdate, how old am I?

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I know your Mom and Dad are right there. Put them on and I'll ask them.

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    Cagsilposted 14 years ago

    Anyone on U.S. soil is costing something.

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    rhamsonposted 14 years ago

    Mike,
    
    I pretty much go along with what you say but I take exception to your reasoning that illegal immigrant workers are needed to fill the void left by older retiring workers or those that do not wish to work.
    
    The problem with allowing poorer illegal workers to fill those jobs is that for someone who is not lazy or afraid of hard work, they can't afford to work for the wages being offered by these employers.  In a very many of the cases these illegal workers work two or three jobs to make enough to scrape by.  In a lot of cases the illegal worker also pools his money with many others so they can have a place to live.  I know this for a fact as I was a manager of a low income housing complex in Phoenix and had to evict as many as 12 people from a studio apartment at a time doing just that.
    
    The hiring and acceptance of this situation only perpetuates the problem and does little to raise people out of their poverty.  It lowers the standard of living that a legal worker would have to accept to compete with the illegal.
    
    You have to ask yourself who profits from this and by how much?  The standard of living we have enjoyed as hard working Americans is being stolen out from under us not by the illegal immigrant worker but by the profiteer who employs them.
    
    Make the employer responsible and provide him with a means to verify the nationality of the workers he hires and this will even out the trouble we have with these people leaving their homes and their countries to be victimized and villainized in a foreign land.  It will also give no excuse for the lazy legal workers to go out and get a job they can earn a decent living at.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Rhamson...I am specifically speaking, in that case, about university degree required/professional jobs.
    
    This is not my assertion, by the way...they are widely discussed..I was recently reading a presentation put together by plant pathologists..and what of other fields?
    
    I don't have time to cite sources...but search and you will find.
    
    I agree with you absolutely that the cost of living is high while the price we are largely paid is low.  Believe me...I understand this well..
    
    I'll write more later..

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       rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Mike,
       
       I can understand your statement as related to degreed jobs and the logic behind that.  One has to wonder whether through the American dream illegal workers children will acheive degrees as well and become more competition at that level eventually.
       
       I can speak to the construction and manufacturing segment that the ilegal worker is drastically affecting the job situation and that more and more I am competing on an uneven playing field due to the wages and benefits I must pay legal workers while the employers of the illegal workers pockets the difference.  Even with the money the illegal woker employer pockets he can beat my price.
       
       I think that the work ethic and dedication to family that the illegal worker displays is something that America can understand and use but it is illegal and it is not the fair and moral way to acheive it at the expense of the employers and legal workers who play by the rules.

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          Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          One has to wonder whether through the American dream illegal workers children will acheive degrees as well and become more competition at that level eventually.
          
          
          It's already happenning.  Don't you read?  I've read about this in the Readers Digest years ago...

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             rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             I did not see it.  It is funny that I came to the same conclusion without reading it.
             
             I think it is something that the anchor generation has been angling towards as a goal.

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                Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                The anchors are only doing what every other legal citizen is doing - growing, living, learning, reaching for their own American Dream - because, by birth, they're entitled.
                
                Two steps to slow illegal immigration:
                1. punish employers willing to hire illegal immigrants
                2.  no more automatic citizenship due to birth

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                   rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   I agree 100%!

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                      Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      So, we have a plan?  Call your congressman!  Contact your state representative!  Make your voice heard!   
                      
                      
                      Will it do any good? 

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                         rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         Need more money.......yes!........much more money!!
                         

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                      Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Can't agree with #2

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                         Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         2. no more automatic citizenship at birth for children born to illegal immigrants.  (is that better?)

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                            Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            Sorry, still can't sign on. I would, however, support the idea of deporting the mother anyway.

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                            TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            Raf.
                            
                            It is a myth that the constitution grants citizen-sahip at birth to illegal babies.
                            
                            1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
                            
                            Myth.
                            
                            They are by definition not subject to the juridiction of the United States Federal or States Govt.
                            
                            Subject to the jurisdiction, implies you legally surrendered yourself to the juridiction of our laws and courts, Govt, etc.  That you came legally and subjected yourself to them.  Swearing to abide by them and uphold them.
                            
                            Not, you snuck in and had a baby.

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                               Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                               Sorry, that's not how it has been interpreted for some time.

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    lightning johnposted 14 years ago

    While visiting a friend in Albuquerque New Mexico in 2002, I met a young lady that had immigrated from Russia. She had a new bar and a restaurant there. She said our United States government had given here several thousand dollars to start her out, and she didn't have to pay taxes for 3 years.
    I wonder does any other countries do that for Americans if they immigrate there?

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    Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago

    Funny you say that about Russia ,because they do that in New Zealand too...hmm....no doubt some dodgy deal behind closed doors...
    
    Is the West afraid of Russia perhaps-
    
    Politics suck

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    foreignpressposted 14 years ago

    Then there was the illegal immigrant woman in Arizona who  complained about the new law. She told the reporter that she and her husband have been living illegally in the U.S. for 15 years. She's had seven children during that time. She has a right to be here.
       So that's seven anchor babies who have been supported by the American taxpayer; this includes 12 years of education (at least), free school lunches, free access to various state-sponsored entitlement programs, and who knows what else? By the way, anchor babies DO take jobs Americans want.
       The repercussions of illegal immigration by tens of millions of people are enormous. Arizona recently estimated that the annual cost of supporting illegal immigrants runs into the $billions$.
       People put a spin on illegal immigration and American citizens have put up with it. But Arizona's SB1070 is a catalyst that will create some serious change.
       But here's a perfect solution to the problem: Illegal immigrants can gravitate to cities that want them. Notably this would be San Fran, San Diego, and LA. These are sanctuary cities. Unfortunately California is broke. But that's what they wanted.

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "By the way, anchor babies DO take jobs Americans want."
       
       
       Well, if they are born here they are Americans, so that doesn't really apply.

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          foreignpressposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Yes, by a nice overly-liberal interpretation of the Constitution, anchors are citizens. But a large part of this problem with illegal immigration are the entitlements that go with it. With no means of support, illegals expect to be taken care of -- to include their American born children. And now the coffers are bare.
             This issue gets nasty. That's why we have laws. Why these laws aren't being enforced remains a serious puzzle.

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          TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Sab... Anchor babies are illegal also. I see no where in the constitution it says spit a kid out and you and that kid get citizenship.
          
          It is not there.

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             Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Sorry. You're born here, you're a citizen. Been that way for a long time.

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    Cagsilposted 14 years ago

    I guess the biggest problem underlying the illegal immigrants is "HOW" they are getting here in the first place?
    
    Last time I checked- it was called "Human Trafficking"? and that is illegal. So, are the illegals victims? Or law breakers?
    
    Just a thought.

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "So, are the illegals victims? Or law breakers? "
       
       
       Yes.

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    Cagsilposted 14 years ago

    Interesting, a one word answer, that applies to both questions. Thank you Sab Oh.

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    TMMasonposted 14 years ago

    Sab is right.
    
    They are going to get stuck with the short end of the stick in this.
    
    They have been played, while they thought they were playing.
    
    I have no pity for them. I hope mexico has a good welfare system.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Rhamson....if we are suffering from 1) a shortfall of youth as our countrie's population rapidly ages and 2) a shortfall (not a little one by the way) of professionals then it seems as though competition won't be that much of an issue.
    
    I agree with you regarding construction. My brother is an electrician, and he talks all the time about how undocumented workers lower wages.
    
    I do not like this situation either. But, to go after the individuual undocumented worker won't solve the problem, at least not by itself.
    
    Where there is demand a supply will be created....
    
    Instead, strict, heavily enforced laws against employers needs to be enacted.
    
    On the construction site one should lose their contract and funds for work performed, and I encourage jail/prison time.
    
    Americans have a long legacy of using cheap labor to line their pockets....and this is the first "American" story that I would like to destroy.
    
    We can scapegoat the undocumented all we want....but temp agencies in the Inland Empire (hiring undocumented to staff Walmart warehouses), meat-packing plants, construction sites (etc) need to publicly suffer....not something behind closed doors, or a slap on the wrist....but total public humiliation...
    
    But I don't see anything like that going on....and I ask "why?"
    
    
    Why do we target only the guy on the bottom...especially if he or she happens to come from Mexico, as opposed to somewhere else...
    
    In America there seems to be a "punish" "punish" "punish" mentality...which is why we have more people incarcerated than anywhere else in the world.....and I don't see our penal system solving any problems, or rehabilitating anyone...
    
    Through my own family experiences, I have actually seen this corrections system turned into institutionalized abuse. Corrections officers make a lot of money.....and as one officer told my brother the last time he was locked up (for something that was solely a creation of law enforcement) he related how a guard was telling the prisoners that he hoped to see them again...that they pay for his house and his boat.
    
    Every time someone is put on that L.A. County Jail bus....guilty or innocent...the system makes money...like kids going to school.
    
    There is a problem with this scenario...there is too much incentive to criminalize..
    
    And this is not even beginning to mention how private contractors are abusing their role in the jail/prison system, whether they are Keefe Commissary or cleaning crews....
    
    If we want to make our nation better we need to change the priorities of the institutions that are sucking our money away....whether it is the defense department or the department of corrections.
    
    But, instead, we discuss a much smaller segment of our national problem....undocumented immigrants...
    
    They can all be gone tomorrow and our problems will not change.  In fact, we might find ourselves in a worse predicament, in my opinion.
    
    Then again, if there are no undocumented, I strongly believe that business will simply look for another weak population, like felons, to take advantage of.....this is already happening....
    
    They went from abusing indentured workers to slaves....and then slaves to new immigrants....then to undocumented immigrants....ex-cons are the next logical conclusion, especially since there are so many.....
    
    As long as they can be paid cheaply, they have no public/political voice, and they can be manipulated through fear (of having accusations made that will put them back in jail/prison) business will have their fun.
    
    To solve these issues requires a holistic approach....and until we can resolve the fraudulent and predatory nature of many companies in the United States...and the government that enables them to exist...there will be no change....

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       rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       We have gone astray somewhere as I believe everything you say as to be a true depiction.
       
       My desire is not to attack the poor immigrant worker for trying to get ahead but stop the exploitation of their plight.  I say go after the employer who uses these people to line his pockets.  The problem is the many corporate employers who do this as a normal method of producing profits.  McDonalds comes to mind.  America has a penchant for slave labor and if we can't have it here we go overseas to hire it. China, Thailand and Viet Nam comes to mind
       
       Make the fine a hefty one for the lawbreaking company to curb this practice and maybe some legislation that would allow the illegal worker to come here and work legally for wages that would allow the legal worker to compete to work the same job.
       
       We really got off the beaten path.  I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

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          Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          "America has a penchant for slave labor "
          
          
          That kind of hyperbole is deeply offensive

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Ai-ya~ spare me from the mindless regurgitation of chomsky-esque radical lefty irrelevant nonsense...

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          rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          The truth stings too much doesn't it.

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             Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             I'll let ya know if any ever shows up here

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                rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you in your butt.

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                   Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Either way I'm safe around you

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                      rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      You always have been safe around me.  Your toxic comments however are not.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Sab....perhaps you should step out of your bubble and come meet me in Los Angeles...
    
    You can call hyperbole all you want...but my brother is right here, and he can attest to what I write...I am at UCLA now and there are undocumented students that you should speak to...
    
    I will be in the Inland Empire today meeting with workers, labor groups, and companies...
    
    Come....let us see where the hyperbole is...my car is warmed up and  there is plenty of room.
    
    While I'm driving I'll be wondering how many people around me think like you...
    
    By the way, "From Coolie to Model Minority"....check it out Sab.
    
    Reality.

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "perhaps you should step out of your bubble and come meet me in Los Angeles..."
       
       Oh yeah, I'm just dying to spend some quality time together...

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "You can call hyperbole all you want..."
       
       Not a matter of 'wanting' to, it is just a description of your endlessly repetitive 'performance.'

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       " there are undocumented students that you should speak to..."
       
       Junior, I've worked with more legal and illegal aliens than you are ever likely to exchange casual greetings with in your life, but thanks for the consideration.

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "I will be in the Inland Empire today "
       
       Have you noticed that no matter how often you try to work that into the discussion no one gives a $!#&?

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "While I'm driving I'll be wondering how many people around me think like you..."
       
       Just think how perfect the world would be if only more people were as saintly as you and 'wondered' about the other people stuck in traffic.
       
       They'll build statues to you one day...

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    True Sab....it is hard for you to see any truth...
    
    Take me up on my offer to come out here to L.A. and the I.E....
    
    I'll show you truth.
    
    Statues?  Keep projecting arrogance....it only shows your own inner desires and beliefs...
    
    That psychology minor really does come in handy.
    
    
    I continue to enjoy the selectivity of your responses....and your eagerness to publicly display your lack of substance.

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "it is hard for you to see any truth...
       
       ....
       
       I'll show you truth."
       
       
       Ah, "truth"! Do you think you've got any of that, young fella?
       
       

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "That psychology minor really does come in handy."
       
       
       Yes, I'm sure you keep a lot of minor things in hand

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    lovemychrisposted 14 years ago

    "In America there seems to be a "punish" "punish" "punish" mentality...which is why we have more people incarcerated than anywhere else in the world.....and I don't see our penal system solving any problems, or rehabilitating anyone...
    
    Through my own family experiences, I have actually seen this corrections system turned into institutionalized abuse. Corrections officers make a lot of money.....and as one officer told my brother the last time he was locked up (for something that was solely a creation of law enforcement) he related how a guard was telling the prisoners that he hoped to see them again...that they pay for his house and his boat.
    
    Every time someone is put on that L.A. County Jail bus....guilty or innocent...the system makes money...like kids going to school.
    
    There is a problem with this scenario...there is too much incentive to criminalize..
    
    And this is not even beginning to mention how private contractors are abusing their role in the jail/prison system, whether they are Keefe Commissary or cleaning crews...."
    
    This is so true. The Prison-Industrial Complex is one of the worst policies going. People are basically thrown away on a daily basis so the industry can make money.
    Judges have no discretion, compassion is taken out of Justice.
    You're right...more people locked up than anywhere on Earth.
    It's extremely racist as well.
    just another example of American values being hi-jacked by monied interests.
    No surprise though.
    
    You know, I'm a fan of Fifty Cent, and his colleague Tony Yayo said when they went to Amsterdam it was shocking to be in a place with so little crime.
    
    I'll bet people only go to prison there for REAL crimes, like murder or grand theft....not for possession of marijuana.
    And now we add yet another arrestable offense....not having legal papers on your person if you "look" or "act" illegal.
    Wardens symbol of status now is the number of prisoners they have.
    This is NOT my idea of Liberty and Justice for All!

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    How juvenile Sab...
    
    Ai ya indeed.
    
    For being so aged over me, you find it very easy to stoop to the gutter.
    
    Excellent post Sad(b)....you are proving so many of my points for me.
    
    I'm off for now, though.

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Off to the sugar cane fields?

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    foreignpressposted 14 years ago

    This country needs to get back to an immigration system that truly helps the poor. Mexicans and Central Americans, mostly, have the world handed to them in this country because of their proximity.
       But proximity is a poor excuse to cater to a certain grouping of people. There are children in Africa literally starving to death. Death by starvation takes a very long time. It's a hideous way to go. Why not give these children a chance at the American dream? But with rampant almost unchecked migration from the south, this melting pot is rapidly becoming lopsided. And what is the value in that?
       Certain Hispanic politicians in Los Angeles are already screaming "takeover" of the Southwest by Latinos. Who's demonstrating in the streets demanding instant amnesty? What grouping of people is denigrating the United States and threatening to populate thus skewing politicians' rhetoric? This wouldn't be happening if the so-called melting pot was equally mixed. The pot has melted.
       I still think this is by design, however. The infernal North American Union will erase all borders. Hopefully by that time there will be a plan in place to prevent our hospitals from being inundated by the sick.

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    LeanManposted 14 years ago

    It has been a few years since I lasted visited the US, but when i last came I was very surprised at a lot of the people I met; Firstly most thought I was Australian (i am from the UK with a fairly typical London type accent), then they would all volunteer that they were Irish, Scottish, Polish, somethingish, but not American!!
    
    However as to immigration, I am all for it if the immigrant has something to add and is willing to adhere to the rules of the country and at least learn the language.. Those that come here to complain and sponge from others should just go back where they came from........

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