really get tired of people who say the United States is a horrible place. I have no idea why they just don't go to a country they think is better. I wonder if they are too unintelligent, cowards or just lack the conviction and commitment it would take to move to another country.
Years ago I had an argument with one of my wife's relatives. They are liberals. I got so fed up with these wealthy, well-educated people complaining about the United States. I suggested they leave and go to another country they think is better. They did. They went to New Zealand and then lived in Australia. Now they're planning to move back to the United States. They won't tell me why.
When people complain about the United States being so horrible, I have to ask why they stay here. Citizens are free to relocate to any country of their choice they believe is better. Why don't more of these people do this? Are too immature? Or, are they just spoiled Americans who have no idea what life is like in other countries and like spending their time complaining rather than doing?
That is a dumb right winger " love it or leave it" scenario. On the contrary, we are going to stay CHANGE it and it is coming to a neighborhood near you. And with the changing demographics, you all may be the ones who would want to leave?
I lived in PanAma for a while, and most of the Anglo expats I ran into told me they left the US to find freedom away from Obama as "a tyrant". So, when it comes to endless whine of the right winger, I have seen that movie, too. I have no sympathy.
Honestly, Mike, don't you people ever see the writing on the wall?
Since my world views are not based on race, I can honestly say I don't care about the changing demographics. The conservative movement is growing in the black as well as Latino communities. It is the belief that this country may be flawed, but it is the best country in the world. That is a belief that is covered in ALL demographics in this country. I can't stand liberals who believe this is such an unjust and unfair place. I say, go live in another country that you think is more just and fair. I wonder how many liberals believe they would have such speech freedoms in other countries? Try saying bad things about Russia in Russia, same with China or Cuba. Why try to change such an unjust place when you can go to a country that is better. I wonder what country that would be?
Ignoring the significance of race/religion etc. in American and even global politics is like one burying ones head in the sand.
Conservatism, a la Trump is not "growing" within my community, not from what I can see. "Best" is subjective and relative, depending on what is most important to you. I have preferences, balancing the negatives and the positives, this is a good place, at the moment. But agitation for change and improvement among advocates from the Left will continue and if that troubles the Right, then I say, "too bad".
They gave me that "love it or leave it " line
60 years ago, I guess all was fair and the Left and civil rights advocates were just whining?
This society MUST continue to remain a work in progress and it can hardly be thought that we have attained to the finished product.
We "liberals" still have the right within the democratic process to advocate for the changes that we want, can we agree on that, Mike?
"Conservatism, a la Trump is not "growing" within my community, not from what I can see."
Ah, but it is growing. Here is an interesting video from the Black Conservative movement.
I don't worry about race because that has nothing to do with a person being conservative.
"We "liberals" still have the right within the democratic process to advocate for the changes that we want,"
I agree. I don't know why Liberals prefer illegal immigrants over American citizens and legal immigrants. At the very least, they should respect American citizens and legal immigrants over illegal aliens. I've never met a liberal who struck me as intelligent, but they should be smart enough to understand it's not good to disrespect fellow citizens.
Yes, Mike thanks I saw much of this but I have seen lots attends white supremacist rallies as well. The proof will be in the vote and the electorate, will this "growing" black conservative movement translate into relatively more black votes for Republicans? This is the proof in the pudding that I want to see.
There is a correlation politically between ethnicity and being conservative in America that is easy to see when one looks at the cast ballots.
I am liberal and I have not advocated for illegal immigration and an article that I have written attests to that fact. Just because I don't necessarily see the "wall" scenario as the best solution to the problem in the place of looking more closely at those who overextend their current visas and promoting harsher penalties to those who hire illegals, does not mean that I am not concerned.
I wasn't born yesterday, Mike, and I don't find conservatism/rightwingers particularly astute from my side of the divide, either. My point of view is considerably different from yours, but we will the voters decide which is the most palatable course for future of this country. We can agree on that, hopefully?
"My point of view is considerably different from yours, but we will the voters decide which is the most palatable course for future of this country."
I agree with you.
Okay, now, your party's platform attests to a love of illegal aliens. Sanctuary cities and states? Wanting to eliminate ICE? In New York City, illegal aliens are getting free college tuition? If I lived there, I would wonder why the disrespect for citizens.
https://buffalonews.com/2019/01/23/coll … gislature/
Now, look at the benefits illegal immigrants to this country get.
http://www.ncsl.org/research/immigratio … rants.aspx
If you were in a country such as Russia or even Australia, you would not receive any benefits, you would be deported. In Russia, they would probably have some fun with you first, which is their way.
So, how much money in paying benefits and paying for illegal criminals in jail and the court system would be saved by the tax payers if we did everything necessary to prevent illegal immigration? If we eliminated sanctuary cities and states?
Quite a bit.
I don't know why the Democrats don't see the crisis at the border. The cost to our country for illegal immigration is unsustainable.
“According to a report published by Forbes, health care for 3.9 million illegal immigrants costs American taxpayers $18.5 billion annually. Of that total, $11.2 billion in federal taxes went to subsidizing care for illegal immigrants in 2016.”
CIS found that illegal immigrants indirectly receive $2.8 billion of health care funding through state-only Medicaid programs and through federal taxes totaling at least $4.6 billion,
https://www.watchdog.org/national/repor … d3b38.html
“According to ICE's FY 2018 budget, on average it costs $133.99 a day to maintain one adult detention bed. But immigration groups have pegged the number closer to $200 a day.”
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/20/cost-us … cages.html
I'm sure most Americans could live pretty good at $200 a day. Why are people who come here illegally worth so much?
Why not just close the border then? Trump is too big a wimp to do it, yet he can and has said he would and is now backing down from that claim. Pretty simply. There's a crisis. Close the border.
I agree. I have no problems with closing the border.
Do you not think it's interesting that when he made that suggestion, conservatives everywhere and a lot of people in his administration advised against it?
I think this whole so-called "border crisis" is a lot more complicated than people think.
You are right. It is interesting.
The border with Mexico is very complicated. I wonder if he is determined to close the border or if his words were meant to motivate Mexico to stop the caravan. President Donald Trump said repeatedly "They can stop it, they choose not to" Maybe this is a message to Mexico to follow their own immigration laws, which are much more strict than ours.
Well, I think the caravan is a giant hoax. What difference does it make whether there's a caravan or not. The whole idea is stupid since a giant caravan makes it more likely than not the people on it will be caught crossing the border.
That said, I support closing the border. Just close it. See what happens. No immigration into the U.S. at all.
I wonder how many people know the United States had a very strict immigration policy from 1924 to 1965.
"The Immigration Act of 1924 limited the number of immigrants allowed entry into the United States through a national origins quota. The quota provided immigration visas to two percent of the total number of people of each nationality in the United States as of the 1890 national census. It completely excluded immigrants from Asia."
https://www.history.com/topics/immigrat … since-1965
Credence is advocating for 1) Punishing employers for hiring illegals 2) Coming down on folks that have overstayed their visas. These views are in line with an anti-illegal immigration stand.
I agree with you, and I think we can do some things to encourage them to leave.
Let's start with banning the Democratic Party and revoking the right to vote for all liberals, along with women and minorities because the majority of them vote for liberals.
Let's Make America Pure Again.
Mike Why don't they leave? Because liberalism is a lie in every aspect of its tenants, its adherents are liars at heart and the historical results of liberalism prove it! Summed up here...
People pointing out inequities and demanding better and being critical of our government does not mean they hate the country or that they want to leave.
I imagine you expected the same thing of African-Americans during the Civil Rights movement? Just shut up. If you don't like it, leave. Or during Vietnam?
Or how about gay people? Should they just shut up and leave when they feel they're being mistreated?
This is the fundamental difference between Progressives and Conservatives. The conservative wants those who don't have it as good to shut up and wait their turn. Progressives (call it complaining if you want) work to identify the inequities in society and fix them.
Okay, let's try this a different way.
This is in reference to people who say they want to leave. People who believe other countries are better and they want to be there. My question is why are they not there?
The difference between progressives and Conservatives progressives believe that people who are successful should be punished. Conservatives believe everyone can be successful if they so desire. Here are some rags to riches stories. I'm sure none of them went through life with a progressive telling them how they were a victim.
Kenny Troutt, the founder of Excel Communications, paid his way through college by selling life insurance.
Net worth: $1.5 billion
Troutt grew up with a bartender dad and paid for his own tuition at Southern Illinois University by selling life insurance. He made most of his money from phone company Excel Communications, which he founded in 1988 and took public in 1996. Two years later, Troutt merged his company with Teleglobe in a $3.5 billion deal.
He's now retired and invests heavily in racehorses.
Starbucks's Howard Schultz grew up in a housing complex for the poor.
Net worth: $2.9 billion
In an interview with British tabloid Mirror, Schultz says: "Growing up I always felt like I was living on the other side of the tracks. I knew the people on the other side had more resources, more money, happier families. And for some reason, I don't know why or how, I wanted to climb over that fence and achieve something beyond what people were saying was possible. I may have a suit and tie on now but I know where I'm from and I know what it's like."
Schultz ended up winning a football scholarship to the University of Northern Michigan and went to work for Xerox after graduation. He then took over a coffee shop called Starbucks, which at the time had only 60 shops. Schultz became the company's CEO in 1987 and grew the coffee chain to more than 16,000 outlets worldwide.
Ivestor Ken Langone's parents worked as a plumber and cafeteria worker.
Net worth: $2.8 billion
To help pay for Langone's school at Bucknell University, he worked odd jobs and his parents mortgaged their home.
In 1968, Langone worked with Ross Perot to take Electronic Data Systems public. (It was later acquired by HP.) Just two years later, he partnered with Bernard Marcus to start Home Depot, which also went public, in 1981.
Born into poverty, Oprah Winfrey became the first African-American TV correspondent in Tennessee.
Net worth: $3 billion
Winfrey was born into a poor family in Mississippi, but this didn't stop her from winning a scholarship to Tennessee State University and becoming the first African-American TV correspondent in the state at the age of 19.
In 1983, Winfrey moved to Chicago to work for an AM talk show that would later be called The Oprah Winfrey Show.
John Paul DeJoria, the man behind a hair-care empire and Patron Tequila, once lived in a foster home and his car.
Net worth: $2.9 billion
Before the age of 10, DeJoria, a first-generation American, sold Christmas cards and newspapers to help support his family. He was eventually sent to live in a foster home and even spent some time in a gang before joining the military.
With a $700 dollar loan, DeJoria created John Paul Mitchell Systems and sold the shampoo door-to-door while living in his car. He later started Patron Tequila, and now invests in other industries.
At one time, businessman Shahid Khan washed dishes for $1.20 an hour.
Net worth: $4.4 billion
He's now one of the richest people in the world, but when Khan came to the U.S. from Pakistan, he worked as a dishwasher while attending the University of Illinois. Khan now owns Flex-n-Gate, one of the largest private companies in the U.S., the NFL's Jacksonville Jaguars, and Premier League soccer club Fulham.
Forever 21 founder Do Won Chang worked as a janitor, as a gas station attendant, and in a coffee shop when he first moved to the U.S.
Net worth: $6.5 billion
Husband and wife Do Won Chang and Jin Sook, the team behind Forever 21, didn't always have it so easy. After moving to the U.S. from Korea in 1981, Do Won had to work three jobs at the same time to make ends meet. The couple opened their first clothing store in 1984.
Forever 21 is now an international, 480-store empire that rakes in around $3 billion in sales a year.
Ralph Lauren was once a clerk at Brooks Brothers dreaming of men's ties.
Net worth: $6.8 billion
Lauren graduated high school in the Bronx, New York, but later dropped out of college to join the Army. It was while working as a clerk at Brooks Brothers that Lauren questioned whether men were ready for wider and brighter designs in ties. The year he decided to make his dream a reality, 1967, Lauren sold $500,000 worth of ties. He started Polo the next year.
Steel tycoon Lakshmi Mittal came from modest beginnings in India.
Net worth: $12.3 billion
A 2009 BBC article says the ArcelorMittal CEO and chairman, who was born in 1950 to a poor family in the Indian state of Rajasthan, "established the foundations of his fortune over two decades by doing much of his business in the steel-industry equivalent of a discount warehouse."
Today Mittal runs the world's largest steel-making company and is a multibillionaire.
Luxury goods mogul Francois Pinault quit high school in 1974 after being bullied for being poor.
Net worth: $14.2 billion
Pinault is now the face of fashion conglomerate Kering (formerly PPR), but at one time, he had to quit high school because he was teased so harshly for being poor. As a businessman, Pinault is known for his "predator" tactics, which include buying smaller firms for a fraction of the cost when the market crashes. He eventually started PPR, which owns high-end fashion houses including Gucci, Stella McCartney, Alexander McQueen, and Yves Saint Laurent.
Leonardo Del Vecchio grew up in an orphanage and later worked in a factory where he lost part of his finger.
Net worth: $24.1 billion
Del Vecchio, one of five children, was eventually sent to an orphanage because his widowed mother couldn't care for him. He would later work in a factory making molds of auto parts and eyeglass frames.
At the age of 23, Del Vecchio opened his own molding shop, which expanded to become the world's largest maker of sunglasses and prescription eyewear, including the brands Ray-Ban and Oakley.
Okay, sure. If somebody actually says they want to leave, then they should leave. But a lot of that is hyperbole.
The very definition of a conservative is that they believe in the status quo. The very definition of a Progressive is that they believe in progress/change.
So if you want to say the sun sets in the east and rises in the west, be my guest.
Your argument about progressives wanting to punish successful people - I'm not going to entirely argue against that since the end result of many progressive policies is that taxes go up, the wealthy pay more, businesses face additional burdens. However, since the system we live in allows those that are successful to be successful, progressives and conservatives do argue over what successful people owe to society. Conservatives say less. Progressives say more. Generally speaking. Each side goes too far in their favored direction.
I agree with everything you said. I think it is exactly right.
Since wealthy people pay a huge majority of the taxes, shouldn't we be motivated to have more of them?
Greedy capitalists are the ones who have brought everything from airplanes to Apple products to every type of innovation we know of today. Doesn't society benefit from letting them pursue their wealth?
I don't know that "progressives" say successful people owe anything to society; just that they want it for themselves. It's pretty difficult to make a case that wealth gained legally actually belongs to the people rather than the one that earned it, but it's really easy to simply say "I want what you have built - give it to me or go to jail". All you have to do is convince a greedy populace that it isn't "fair" somehow that legally obtained wealth belongs to the one that owns it.
Don't agree, although it does sound sometimes like some progressives just want to take things away from people, which is ridiculous.
What is not ridiculous, and I know this from experience, is that frequently being wealthy means getting extra benefits from society. The ultra-wealthy get a lot from society. We're merely arguing about what they owe society as a result of that wealth.
I can go a step further in saying that, at some point, accumulating massive amounts of wealth is not good for anyone and should be used for the common good, but of course, just how that would happen is a matter of argument.
That said, our society is based on the accumulation of wealth, of winning, of trying to get as much money as you can, so it is what it is and I mostly try to accept it. People who want socialism don't really understand what they're asking for unless they have specific experience living in a socialist state.
And that said, how much is enough? If we capped earnings at $100 million dollars and taxed everything earned over that at 100%, what would that do? Presumably, it could demotivate people to do anything once they hit that cap.
It's very easy to say "tax the rich", but actually knowing what or how to use that money is so difficult that just letting them keep the money makes more sense.
I'd be interested in ways to incentive improved wages as opposed to raising taxes. When 62.5% of the country is making below $50,000 in salary, those are numbers we should aim to improve upon.
And I'd be for lifting the cap for social security taxation. The 6.2% tax only applies to the first $118,500 in wages. Either raise that number or lift the cap entirely. Many conservatives complain about the system failing. Taxing all income the same can help.
"What is not ridiculous, and I know this from experience, is that frequently being wealthy means getting extra benefits from society."
You're losing me here. If I'm a little bit wealthy, I get lobster once a month. More wealthy and I get a private jet. More yet and I get servants, a mansion and travel anywhere I want, any time. Of course there are benefits to being wealthy! But while I agree that after a certain point (different in every mind) it should be used for other purposes that does not mean that you, I or anyone else has a right to force that.
"It's very easy to say "tax the rich", but actually knowing what or how to use that money is so difficult that just letting them keep the money makes more sense."
And that doesn't even begin to address the morality of simply taking whatever we want when we think someone has "too much". Something that precious few of the greedy plebes slavering for higher taxes on the "greedy rich" will even think about, let alone discuss.
My comment has nothing to do with lobster, it has to do with the advantages of being wealthy and white. I get deals from banks that other people do not get. If they did, they would be in a much better position to increase their wealth.
Then again, the argument can be made that I earned that, by being a good customer and paying back my loans on time. But still, the basic system at the banks is that the more you borrow, the lower your interest rate. When we went from a regular mortgage to a jumbo mortgage, we got a much lower rate enabling us to buy a much more expensive house. That lower rate was not available to those buying less expensive houses. There are many more examples. I'm just using the one as an example.
"unintelligent, cowards, lack the conviction, immature, spoiled, never met a liberal who struck me as intelligent"
I'm not sure how much of a liberal I am. I'm certainly not one to follow party lines. I have lived abroad for nearly a decade and would strongly recommend it for anyone who is looking around and feeling like things aren't right. It's helped put a lot in perspective. There are plenty of things I think the U.S. does well and there are other things that I feel are borderline insane. All in all, I'm planning to continue on with life abroad.
I'm not the biggest fan of this line of reasoning even if I'm not a Democrat. It's like telling a Jew "If you don't like Nazi Germany then just leave" to take an extreme example.
I would say the major difference is Jews weren't complaining about Germany and saying to people around the world t was a horrible place for them to live and how horrible its leaders and fellow citizens were who didn't believe as they do and openly working to harm Germany.
You provided a very bad analogy. It appears you may not know what Jews were subjected to prior to WWII in Germany. The situations are not even close to being similar.
Again, if liberals believe this is a horrible country, their fellow citizens who don't believe like them are horrible and feel the need to work against the best interests of the United States, I challenge them to go to a country they believe suits them better. They are free to make this choice.
It's just a suggestion. They talked big about leaving the country when President Donald Trump was elected, but almost all of them are still here.
I do love it when far-right guys like Mike and Jack try and convince everyone they know how 'liberals' think. It just puts their brainwashed outlook towards their fellow Americans in a glaring spotlight.
I have liberal who are my relatives and my wife's relatives. I have to deal with them every working day for my writing business. Trust me, I hear what they say if I want to or not. I heard so many tell me they were going to leave the United States since Donald Trump was elected. They all stayed except for my wife's sister, and she's returning. So, I guess that says a lot to me about liberals. My cousin is fluent in Ukrainian and threatened to go live with relatives in the Ukraine, she's still here. Sorry, I can't take these liberals serious.
I regularly speak with hard core liberals. The more I do, the more I see people I believe are weak-minded and emotionally needy and aren't mature enough to accept when things don't go their way. That has been my experience.
Have you ever listened to a Trump rally? Now, that's a dark vision of America, complete with cheers for the hate and boos for anything involving love, acceptance, inclusion or respect.
Could it be the cheering and love for the United States that liberals hate so much about Trump rallies? Being patriotic does tend to bother liberals who tend to love communists and dictators. Oh, how Democrat members of congress love Fidel Castro.
Well, your impartiality and open and even handed approach to the issue is on display for us all.
What makes you believe that you can define 'libarals' solely based on the experiences within your family?
My view of conservatives/ rightwing reactionary is certainly not positive. Conservative takes their personal exposure and experience and declare it to be the universal reality. I, generally am not keen on Conservatives nor their politics in this "Age of Trump" and have to work hard to not paint them all with a broad brush, and that ain't easy. You could be a bit more even handed and less biased in " your opinions and experience".
What do I say about conservatives: provincial, narrow minded, xenophobic. Statements like "love it or leave it", sort of points to that.
Come on, Credence, admit it. You and all the other liberals simply need to leave America and leave it to all of the Fox-loving and gun-loving Trump supporters.
In fact, EVERYONE can leave except for them. Heck, I guess I have to go too because I'm not Fox-loving, gun-loving and a Trump supporter.
With Trump, it is 'you are either with me or against me'. similar tyrants demand absolute loyalty, instead of letting his good example motivate and inspire others to see and appreciate his objectives and thereby lend a hand.
"love it or leave it"
That's not been said by me, that is YOUR saying.
I hear you, Mike, it is just that the
gist of your comments are leading in that direction
What does he think, 'why don't they leave' means?
What's really interesting (or sad) in this regard of "love it or leave it" is that people are leaving it. They are doing so by migrating, not just into the country, but from liberal states to conservative ones.
The sad part is that when they get there they push for the same policies that drove them away from where they were; the policies and politics that produced the extreme taxation, poor business climate, excessive crime they are running from. They don't seem able to comprehend the rather simple fact that reproducing the political climate they ran from will duplicate the reasons they left in the first place.
No, it couldn't.
Your dear leader loves dictators or do you simply ignore his words and actions because they don't fit your distorted world view?
Certainly not a vision of America I can get behind. It seems more like really bad reality TV. I tried to be optimistic about Trump and give him credit for addressing tough issues like trade imbalance and intellectual property theft, but all the energy I had to put into that optimism has been expended.
I hoped he would be truly independent and make bold moves to clean up Washington.. Within a month of his taking office, I knew he was exactly what I originally thought: a lying POS con man who only cares about himself.
I've come to the same conclusion and am painfully eager for 2020.
How did you get out of the cult compound unscathed?
I switched my glass of Kool-Aid with some colored water. Haha. Joking aside, I was never overly optimistic. He seems to have done everything possible to entrench the 1% without doing much to address the needs of the working and middle class. He had a chance to gain my support but instead has pushed me steadily in the other direction.
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