[Side-discussion in a thread about the recent attack on a synagogue. I think the whole thread was deleted. So I'm posting an edited version of a comment from it because I'm interested in the discussion]
The issue is that Trump's entire political brand is built upon braggadocio, blood and thunder speeches, being politically incorrect, pugilistic etc. His shtick is to attack and insult.
People voted for Trump, as someone who is the opposite of thoughtful, diplomatic, empathetic and discerning, due to a desire to blow up the norms of politics etc.
But it comes down to this: if you need to demolish something, a wrecking ball is a useful tool. If you need to do spinal surgery, then not so much.
Being a brash, rude, loud mouth (is anyone here going to deny that's what he is?) is not only ineffective when it comes to dealing with complex social issues, it's also actively harmful. Such an approach can only create/aggravate new/existing divisions. And it's not rocket science to understand why.
If Trump's approach continues, I predict more Robert Bowers, more Cesar Sayoc's, and more hate crimes.
If Trump's approach does NOT continue, I predict more Robert Bowers, more Cesar Sayoc's, and more hate crimes.
These are nothing new - we've had mass murders and hate crimes for a long time now. Unless you're go to blame Sandy Hook, Tim McVeigh and the Twin Towers on him too, you aren't making much sense.
Maybe we can blame him for the hangings by KKK thugs 70 years ago as well? It would make a nice addition.
While hate existed since long before Trump came to power, the FBI has reported a significant uptick in hate crimes since Trump took the spotlight. Specifically, anti-semitism has been on the rise since the 2016 election. Of course, correlation does not equal causation and anti-semitism has also increased outside the US since before the 2016 election, which suggests that Trump is not causing anti-Jewish sentiment. Rather, white nationalism and neo-Nazism already existed. However, a refusal to condemn white nationalism in the past clearly indicates that Trump could be doing more to combat a problem that can impact our country just like it impacts any other country. The OP's point was that, rather than try to solve a very serious problem, Trump has used divisive language and rude rhetoric, which is harmful when we are trying to come together to fight hate.
I wonder if the FBI is reporting a significant uptick because it is no longer being held back (being told to refrain) from what it counts as hate crime.
You would have to do some research on the matter, but there was a concerted effort made by the Obama Administration to curtail what was counted as hate crime, especially if it was something along the lines of Islamic extremism against non-Muslims.
Trump is clearly not causing anti-Jewish sentiment, not by words or deeds.
From moving the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem, to walking away from the nuclear deal which guaranteed Iran’s eventual acquisition of nuclear weapons and financed its regional aggression and terrorism sponsorship, to unconditionally supporting Israel’s military operations against Iranian positions in Syria, Trump has demonstrated that he is the most pro-Israel president in U.S. history. No other president comes close.
Add to that, his son-in-law is Jewish, any informed individual recognizes accusations of Trump being anti-Semitic is a lie, a lie the likes of CNN and MSNBC are all too happy to espouse as much as possible.
Trump denounced the white nationalism and neo-Nazism, and he did so with far more conviction and determination than Obama ever condemned the assassins of police officers or the violence of BLM... Obama all but excused their actions, tried to explain them away with history lessons about racism... that was OK with the MSM, as is hiring someone at the NYTimes that is openly racist against white people.
It works both ways and those of us who have seen what has occurred the past decade (the reality, not the reported propaganda of CNN type outlets) recognize that Trump is nothing more than the pendulum swinging to the other side, a direct result of all that had transpired in the previous administration, as well as all that transpired in D.C. for the past 25 years of politicians selling out Americans.
I wonder, when the "Establishment" Strikes Back, when it once again has full control of the Presidency and is moving things along towards its ultimate 'progressive globalist' goals, will our Nation's Sovereignty, our Liberties and Freedoms survive?
I am fairly certain I know the answer to that question, but if you have doubts, you should sit down with some young Americans and ask them what they think about borders, people's rights as Americans, and Nationalism/Patriotism in general. After all, they are the voters and leaders of the future.
According to the ADL, the increase in antisemitism has nothing to do with changes is the definition of a hate crime. The ADL actually has their own definition for what qualifies as an "anti-semitic incident" and they reported a 57% increase in their 2017 audit. The ADL includes way more incidences in their audits than the FBI will ever include, but both reports show an increase, even though they both use differing definition of hate. The ADL's reported increase can be explained by the argument that more people are reporting hate to the ADL. The FBI's reported increase cannot really be explained away by Obama's change in the definition of a hate crime because the FBI first reported the increase in 2016, which was before Obama actually left office. The number has continued to rise consistently since then, but it started before Trump was sworn in. It started when Trump first gained popularity during the election.
I truly do not believe that Trump is anti-semitic, even though he has made anti-semitic comments in the past (before his daughter married a Jew). However, helping Israel and condemning Iran (which, by extension, is also helping Israel) is not "proof" that he is not causing anti-Semitism in America. There are a couple million Jews living in America and the vast majority of them are liberal Jews who do not prioritize American policy in Israel over American policy for Jews living in the United States. Honestly, to me, it just looks like Trump's support of Israeli Jews is simply an affirmation that Trump sees Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims as "worse" than Jews. I might be totally wrong about this analysis, but I do not think his Israeli policy is necessarily indicative that he wants to see Jews living a Nazi-free life in the United States. Of course, there may be other explanations for Trump's unprecedented support for Israel. A strong alliance with the only democracy in the Middle East is obviously militarily strategic. There are also certain economic benefits since Israel often spends close to a billion dollars buying American goods every year. Whatever Trump's reasons for supporting Israel, it does not necessarily help the Jews in America. It might help American Jewry, but I see know evidence that it does. Meanwhile, it took Trump way too long to condemn the Charlotteville rioters and Jews -- including many right wing Jews who voted for him like my Rabbi -- were not happy about that. Does this failure to immediately call out white nationalism for what is hurt American Jewry. Again, it is difficult to say.
Again, I do not believe the increase in these anti-Jewish incidences are directly caused by Trump, but I think anti-semitism is exacerbated as a result of a divisive political approach. Some anti-semitic incidents come from the left, but I think this type of left-wing anti-Israel/anti-Jewish sentiment can also be amplified by divisive rhetoric as well. Trump is not the only person who uses this type of rhetoric, but he is in a position of power and, like anyone in a position of power, he has a responsibility to try to promote unity. Will unity help the cause of Jews and other minorities/marginalized groups? It does not take a rocket scientist to figure why unity and equality are closely associated. Therefore, I fully believe that promoting unity is a good first step for decreasing hate and violence. I will give Trump credit for saying that we must unite after the attempted bombing of prominent democratic officials. However, I see no indication that this type of language will continue.
It might not surprise you because I write for "Bored Student", but I am student. In fact, I go to one of the most left-wing colleges in the United States according the Princeton Review. Thus, I have spoken to young liberal voters. The notion of abolishing borders is mildly popular in certain activist groups. However, more popular is the notion that we need to abolish ICE. Nationalism is seen as somewhat problematic, but patriotism is highly valued and many make a huge point of differentiating between the two as they insist that patriotism and loving America for its accomplishments is actually extremely important. My point is that liberals/"The Establishment" are not a monolithic group. In fact, I am honestly confused about which liberal policies would cause you to lose your freedom. Your guns might have to go, but I cannot think of any other freedom that you might lose.
Hello Bored Student,
A wonderful reply, I appreciate your including you current status insofar as your relative age and where you go to school, as it helps frame your perspective and position.
So let me give you that in return, I spent a dozen years serving in the Army and visited more than half a dozen foreign countries across the globe in the process, staying for a few months, some places far longer.
In addition I have seen a lot of this country, and I worked several years for government funded or government controlled programs, once I left the military. So much of my perspective comes not from theory or reading of other people's concepts or beliefs, which like you I also have, but from actual experiences as well.
The ADL states that it "fights anti-Semitism and all forms of bigotry, defends democratic ideals, and protects civil rights for all", doing so through "information, education, legislation, and advocacy".
In 2013, J.M. Berger, a former nonresident fellow of the Brookings Institution, wrote that media organizations should be more cautious when citing the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) and ADL, arguing that they are "not objective purveyors of data".
Gun rights group Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO) has been highly critical of the Anti-Defamation League. In pamphlets such as "Why Does the ADL Support Nazi-Based Laws?", and "JPFO Facts vs. ADL Lies", the JPFO has accused the ADL of undermining the welfare of the Jewish people by promoting gun control.
My review of the ADL shows it to be, IMO, a far Left political activist group that would be set against the Trump Administration for almost all his policies (save those associated with Israel perhaps) and therefore an untrustworthy source of data.
In essence, I believe they would bend facts, and lie, as necessary to serve their political end. And that goes for nearly any organization, or any media source in our country.
So if the point that they are making is that violence is up because of Trump and the Republicans, I would say that could be easily proven to be false, if a person wanted to research in depth the meaning of the attacks or who perpetrated them.
For instance, this attack in Pittsburg was carried out by someone who evidence shows did not like Trump, and who ridiculed those who did. So how this can be attributed to Trump in any way, unless it is to show that because Trump supports Jews and Israel, and such support from the President set this anti-Semite off.
With time and experience you will likely learn that the left-wing is far more anti-Semitic today than you imagine.
It is an interesting thing, the Democratic Party (the left) was once home to Jewish ideals and leadership. Just as the Democratic party used to be the 'Worker's Party' and put Americans and the American worker first.
All this is part of the past. Of course the Democratic Party will try its best to hide this, so that it can retain as many of its former voters as it can, those that do not recognize its new agendas, and who currently directs the Party. But more people every day realize the changes and join the #Walkaway movement.
A Nation without borders, and a nation without authorities to enforce those borders, is no Nation at all.
That, in its entirety, is a misnomer, you cannot be a Patriot of America and not be Nationalistic.
What will need to be done, is to replace the concept of Nationalism, with the concept of Globalism, with Humanism, with advancing human civilization, the idea of one race, one people, this could be achieved by taking on a daunting near impossible project such as colonizing Mars... and it will take a couple decades of 'teaching' young people to think in terms of Global not National.
However, this is a deadly dangerous concept for people in America and Europe today to have, for the only thing it will spell is the downfall of their society, their nations, and their economies.
The reason for this is countries like China and Japan are totally secular, nationalistic, and exclusionary, they look out only for their best interests, and given even a sliver of a chance, they will enslave the rest of the world to serve their interests.
We were on the precipice of this occurring, Trump has sidelined what was a 2022 target date for China to assume global control of the world's economy... and sadly your University and your media will keep you in the dark about all of it.
You are allowed to dislike the ADL and I was unsurprised when their reports indicated a correlation between the 2016 election and an uptick in anti-Semitism. If you do not trust the ADL, the FBI, or any organization, then I wonder where you get your facts from. Note, NO ONE is suggesting that correlation equals causation. All I ask of Trump that he try to solve these obvious problems without using an approach that requires divisive rhetoric. Additionally, I would never say that Bowers is a symptom of Trump-instigated anti-Semitism because, as you said, he did not like Trump and because, as I said, correlation does not equal causation. However, I do think Bowers is a symptom of what I call "lack of unity", which is a problem that I do not think Trump wants to solve or has any intention of trying to solve, which is the real issue that I have with divisive rhetoric. There is no denying that anti-Semitism is a symptom of "other-ing" the Jews. Thus, we should stop the "other-ing" and I do not think Trump has even making an attempt.
I also wonder what your definitions of patriotic and nationalistic are. In my world, they are not same. We take pride in our country, but when we call out "nationalism", we are calling out patriotism in its extreme form. In its extreme form, patriotism can lead to beliefs of superiority. It can also lead you to feel pride in the negative aspects of your country, which I do not believe is acceptable. However, if you think that this type of patriotism is not a problem with nationalism, then we clearly are using a different definition of nationalism. To be sure, nationalism and nationhood have always had a vague definition and the state of being a nation can mean different things to different people. Globalism also has different definitions. To most people around here, it is a vague ideal where everyone is equal, but pro-immigration is also a big part of it because people should not be denied the opportunity to immigrate due to their previous citizenship. We all agree that some sort of vetting process should take place and we can debate the technicalities of what this process should look like. I wonder what part of globalism leads to decline in civilization. Are you saying diversity is not an ideal for which we should strive? Are you assuming that an invitation for different types of cultures to be integrated into American culture would necessarily lead to a decline in American society and the economy?
Also, ICE was established in 2003. There are other parts of law enforcement that enforced the borders in the past and continue to enforce the borders. Also, I think most people who want to "abolish" ICE just want to cut funding. I do not think it can ever be fully abolished in reality, but with big demands, the final compromise can meet a good standard.
Did I say I dislike them?
Don't mistake my pointing out facts as liking or disliking something, I tend to be neutral about most things, and I recognize that this confuses many whom I 'debate' things with... just because I do not regurgitate accepted positions of the 'Left' does not mean I am arguing for the 'Right'.
For example, if I were to point out the ACLU was formed/created by Communists whose intent was to break down the foundations of America, its social and cultural fabric so that the country could be destroyed from within, I am not necessarily taking a 'Right' or 'Conservative" position, I am merely putting forth the facts.
What you choose to make of that information is entirely up to you, just as the information I put forth about the ADL is entirely up to you as to what to do with it, dismiss it, verify it, I have no control over that, I merely present it for your (and all readers) consideration.
None of these organizations exist to be 'neutral' they are political entities with beliefs, agendas and goals.
Trump may do this, Trump may say many things that are helpful, it will never be covered unless the media which opposes him has to... such as his Presidential Address to the Nation, or some other speech that stands on its own and cannot be taken out of context or ignored.
But you are correct, he is full of bluster and ego, and this close to the mid-term elections he is outspoken and insulting (to the political opposition) as is his style.
As someone else noted in one of these threads recently, for two decades the American people have been trying to use a scalpel to correct the course of the country and get the politicians to work for them, rather than sell them out... they went full blown Republican, then they shifted back to full blown Democrat, and now back to Republican, nothing was getting it done... so they tired of the scalpel approach and went for the Hammer (Trump) because these criminals posing as Republicans and Democrats in Congress need to answer to someone, they haven't answered to the American people in a quarter century.
The age of the nation state is over and the idea that countries can stand alone is an ‘illusion’ and a ‘lie’, the EU president believes. -2010
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … d-lie.html
Emmanuel Macron has vowed to abolish nationalism in France and has outlined his hellish vision for “European sovereignty” to replace French culture and traditions. -2018
http://www.fergieinfo.com/2018/08/31/ma … e-is-dead/
Nationalism, not to be confused with ultra-nationalism, promotes a more meaningful human existence by using morality, virtue, and cultural identity as building blocks for society, and so therefore serves as a more compatible operating system for human beings.
China is Nationalist, while Europe and North American leadership are desperately trying to throw away any semblance of social cohesion or nation state culture, tearing themselves apart in the process, China is showing just how great a Nation can be when it is unified with one culture, one society, and it works to eliminate those elements within its borders that try to 'diversify' from that.
Again, I am not really taking a position on this matter, and I have written a few hubs on China, on the economy, and projected out somewhat in them where things will likely lead.
The American media will go off on left versus right controversies, and make a big show of various battles between them, none of these issues harm globalist platforms.
Trumps actions have harmed globalist efforts and platforms however, his pulling out of the TPP, his pulling out of the Paris Accord, his pulling out of the UN's Global Compact for Migration, etc. etc. and so forces are arraying against him, its somewhat surprising he has been allowed to get as far as he has.
Eventually the globalist agenda will retake control of the narrative, it is inevitable, what this reprieve Trump has given us allows for remains to be seen, is it merely a few more years of good fortune for America, or will it lead to something more profound and permanent that will benefit the next generation.
I guess that really depends on how much more time he is allotted to improve America's position on the international/global trade stage, as well as with border control, and other issues that can impact the economy for years to come.
Don, it is only a thought, but ...
I read an inference from your second paragraph; "The issue is that Trump's entire political brand is built upon braggadocio, blood and thunder speeches,.."
To your third paragraph to be that Trump voters also voted for him because of what you described as his "brand" in the second.
For many that may be true, but I think for just as many, (if not more), it misses the mark. I remember hearing lots of comments of Trump supporters about when was he going to act more 'presidential.; And many other comments like; "yeah he is ... but ..."
Those don't sound like what is typically described as Trump's base.
Then there is the anybody-but Hillary Trump voter. I have the impression there were a lot of those too.
And further, I think many that voted for Trump, (and many non-Trump voters too), think a wrecking ball is exactly what our D.C. politics need. It might be, (optimistically), said that we have tried the "scalpel" approach for decades, and those results are why we ended up with Pres. Trump.
I think that if you are interested in a reasoned discussion, there must be consideration that candidate Trump's 'base' voter has been generally described to be only 35% of his total voters. So what is the portrait of the Trump voter that isn't the 'deplorable' that his base is described to be?
I will go first, with my perspective;
I was an anybody-but-Hillary voter. I couldn't pull the lever for candidate Trump, so I did a write-in. A wasted vote perhaps, but my vote is important to me. I want to be able to live with it.
I held onto a hope, (it seemed like forever, and still won't completely die), that what I was witnessing was an Atlas Shrugged - Franco D'Anconio scenario where 'the real Pres, Trump' would emerge and say "It was all an act. I had to act this way to beat the machine." And I am also one of those that think the time for scalpels has passed. We really do need a "wrecking ball" to fix D.C. politics. Even if it means major repairs to collateral damage. But wait, give me a little tolerance... I am not an "ends justifies the means' guy, so when I speak of collateral damage, it is not unconditional.
And to that point ... I don't think I am alone. I would bet that many of the Trump voters you want to understand might hold similar thoughts.
To rehash an old refrain, (of mine); "Is the medicine worse than the disease?"
I think I can address your first point with a simple qualifier: some people voted for Trump for the reasons I described. I should have included that in the original comment.
While some certainly hoped he would become "presidential" at a later stage, I think there are some who genuinely didn't (and don't) care, as long as he is advancing their political agenda.
But the profile of a Trump supporter is secondary to my main point, which you picked up with the hammer/scalpel analogy.
In relation to that point, sure using a scalpel for spinal surgery is no guarantee you'll be able to successfully treat the patient, but in general you have more chance using a scalpel for the task than using a hammer.
Likewise a wrecking ball is effective when you need to smash things, less so for actual construction. Again, having the necessary tools may not result in a building with no problems, but there is more chance using tools necessary for the task, than just using a wrecking ball.
Trump is a wrecking ball.
His approach (and that of his administration) is effective when it comes to smashing the norms of politics and social civility.
But that approach does not lend itself to creating unity, because it actively creates division, and/or aggravates existing division. This is not conjecture. We have now seen it for two years.
Even when it's clear someone has managed to get the point across that he needs to be conciliatory, he can't maintain it. E.g:
October 27: Trump says, "We must unify as a nation in peace, love and in harmony”(1).
October 29, Trump refers to the media as "Enemy of the People"(2)
This is literally days after an IED was sent to CNN, by someone we now know to be an ardent Trump supporter.
This suggests these comments are not some clever persona designed to push the right buttons in voters. It's just who Trump is (which is part of his appeal for some people).
So I'm suggesting that Trump is a one-trick pony.
He can do division, but can't do unity, even when he needs to. The reason for that is clear: he does not possess the attributes required, i.e. thoughtfulness, tact, empathy, good judgement. Some of us understood that already, but could only predict and speculate. Now that conclusion is evidence-based.
Some Trump voters simply don't care. That much is clear. It's their prerogative, but it would be more honest for them to say so. Instead I see Trump supporters who voted for him precisely because he is a wrecking ball, now complaining about all the dust.
And those people who voted for Trump in the hope he would become "presidential", surely two years is a reasonable amount of time to give someone before you accept that it's not going to happen.
Again, some of those people simply don't care, and again that's their prerogative, but they should admit they don't care about an increase in hate crimes, civil discord and incivility, division, and the increased likelihood of people getting hurt, just as long as their agenda is being advanced. That would be honest. It would still be awful, but it would be honest.
(1) https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-c … d=58782548
(2) https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta … 2348195841
I would counter, that this is EXACTLY the message spread by the media types like CNN, MSNBC, and the Democratic politicians long before Trump was ever sworn in.
Daily pounding away at civility, at decency, at any and every 'deplorable' who dared vote for him.
You spread the message well... racist, sexist, anti-Semite, that is what you are if you support Trump, that is the message that the media sends, that is what they have harped on for 3 years... 3 years...
But, oh my, a lunatic sends a 'pipe bomb' to CNN two weeks before the mid-term elections, damn it, if you still support him now, you are evil.
Don Lemmon is right, the terrorists are white people, and something must be done about them... thank you CNN, for giving people like him the pulpit to preach to us from. They have been so helpful.
Trump is not the cause of this, he is but one effect of something going on within the Nation that runs much deeper. Caused by a failure of the system, its leadership, and its efforts to manipulate 'the masses' rather than educate and entrust them with future direction they are taking the nation, and the world.
You are right Don, adding "some" did cover my first point.
As to the rest, the scalpel vs. wrecking ball illustration .... whether I would agree or disagree with your points would only be subjective opinion, but generally speaking - I agree with most of it, just not all of it.
His brand is based on any statement that appeals to his base, regardless of the moral, social, economic or legal consequences.
He is the epitomy of the nationalist / populist.
In 2008 Americans elected Mt Rogers for President , smooth , calibrated to the speech of psycho-therapist , polished , empty of content but a smooth voice , as long as he had a teleprompter , otherwise the classic half / phony intellectual stutter , One that otherwise alerted most Americans to the fact that Obama constantly referred to self dozens and even hundreds of times during his speeches of mostly political correctness .
Fast forward to 2016 , majority America grown tired of all double talk and no action , facing the probability of electing the worst rhetorical , blandly speaking , academic trained , coat-tail candidate known to all political stair climbers , Hillary Clinton decided "NO MORE ".
Enter plain speaking , P.C. slaying , Hillary insulting , " knock-um down" Donald Trump , end of story . So what exactly is wrong with Trump ? He is personally easy to dislike and most of you here in fact do not " like" him . Perhaps those of you who don't like him belong on Face -Book where you can like or not like with no political consequences .
The bigger question is , Has America devolved in it's liberal ideology to a Mr. Rogers candidate vetting mentality ? Has sesame Street so programmed the average liberal to a safe play room focus on personality , What has become of our easily offended democrats ?
Trump is one symptom of the problem. As long as threads such as this make it clear that blinders are fully in force...to ensure one never, ever, attempts to understand the bigger picture; threads like this will exist.
It is a problem I see frequently from the left. Say it loud enough and long enough and you convince yourself, but when nothing gets better and eventually gets worse, you rinse and repeat.
I turned off National Public Radio today in total disgust at the constant slant against Trump and after thinking for awhile I found that I agree , THAT the media is an enemy of the people to so abuse "free speech " as to lie constantly .
I listen a lot and hear the slant , so if those who tune in occasionally don't get the slant , I can understand that they don't see the percentage of total bias time against Trump.
Fox News Is Conservatively biased ! Wow , big deal , to us however their whole platform of news isn't entirely based on lies .
The leftist media has filled it's anchor roles with people who are horribly skewed in not only lies but highly damaging bias , "..........racism , white nationalists , gender-phobia , misogyny, islamophobes ....."
I try to watch CNN and within 3 minutes turn it off because of obvious reverse racism , it's declared Trump war , it's bias and willful disassembly of media accuracy ,it's incredible immaturity in political reasoning ..........Where did they get these clowns ,Don Lemmon , Jim Acosta ?
I'd be curious to hear the OP's opinion on the divisive comments made by Don Lemmon. Which CNN refuses to address (last I heard). How that is less divisive than his claims about Trump, when opening this thread.
I think that question of racism accusations is most evident in the newest polls for congress , senate and house races . The bias media can accuse all it wishes , the left can spews it's hate and bias right across the board , ...........
The polls show the difference between fake and real ?
Remember the moral majority ? They are voting .
Trumps divisive and Obama divisive ? What a difference.
The latest from our illustrious President is that us womenfolk are a'feared of the brown people comin' across the border and we need daddy Trump to protect us.
Trump thinks the American people are srupid.
Someone said here recently .
"Now that's funny I don't care who you are "......;-]
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