A vanguard of the thousands of Central American migrants, who have been traveling for more than a month, has reached the U.S.-Mexico border where they hope to seek asylum. What have you heard, what do you think?
Truth, not MSM lies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quz5A87Oqgc
Why would someone leave there home and walk for miles on end?
Would you do such a thing.
Only people who are desperate, fleeing war zones and countries without a future would do.
It's an irony that the United States, A country build by immigrants is suddenly closing it's doors. It forgot it's own history. Diversity made the US a great country. Diversity in religion, race and background.
Many people fled Europe because of hunger, prosecution of religious believes or other motive.
So why not show some compassion and understanding?
"Why would someone leave there home and walk for miles on end?"
My great great grandparents did, From Vermont to what is now Idaho. Through hostile, deadly tribes of people trying to kill them, through incredible hardships but without caravans of food, water and medical care following alongside and without trucks or cars to carry them. They didn't even have UN "advisers" buying their supplies and educating them on how to make it work.
And they were not "fleeing war zones and countries without a future" - they came for free land.
"A country build by immigrants is suddenly closing it's doors."
If that were even partially true there would be a worldwide uproar. But it isn't - a quick look at how many people (legally) immigrated to the country just last year shows how false the statement is.
"Many people fled Europe because of hunger, prosecution of religious believes or other motive."
Many colonies were started by business, for profit reasons. And many of the people in them were here for the same reason - profit.
"So why not show some compassion and understanding?"
With a high percentage of American population being first generation immigrants, what portion of the residents do YOU think we should let in? Half a billion? A Billion? (You do understand that long before that many people enter to feed at the American trough, the country will have degenerated to just another third world country. Or to just a province of China.)
Your great grandparents looked for a better life, so why deny others.
Your family made a life and contributed to what the US now is, so why not let new immigrants contribute to the US?
Many colonies indeed started as a business...plantations..sending convicts and slaves. But many religious folk immigrated as well to find the promised land or to flee from persecution. Or flee from hunger.
What ever the case. The US is an country build by immigrants.
tell you what. you won't even notice half a million immigrants.
and this caravan. How many people are we talking about. 6.000. That's not a big deal. It only needs organization.
The US has 325.7 million citizens. on 9.834 million km²
compared with Europe : 741.4 million people on 10.18 million km²
As you see Europe has double the population of the US on more or less the same km².
You've got loads of space. It's just a matter of spreading out immigrants over the whole country.
"Your great grandparents looked for a better life, so why deny others."
Because their "great life" is at my expense? Have you watched the interviews, with many of them being clear that they want in for the entitlements?
"The US is an country build by immigrants."
You are correct. It was built by immigrants. Your point? That it should now be turned over to people that failed in building their own nation, and so want what our ancestors built instead?
"How many people are we talking about. "
Approximately 20 million illegal immigrants, plus another 46 million legal ones. Plus an unlimited stream coming every day.
"You've got loads of space."
Less than most immigrants already have - never forget that a good deal of the US is either only marginally habitable or already in use for such things as growing food.
But it's instructive that you're quite happy to give away what does not belong to you; to allow an invasion of people into a country that is not yours. You want to care for unlimited hordes of people fleeing bad conditions rather than fixing them, have at it. In YOUR backyard, at YOUR expense. (Is the refugee camp still in place at the eastern end of the chunnel?)
So well said. No one mentions changing demographics and the danger to what this change in the demographics could result in? This balance is important to me, I hope to continue to have our constitution be respected. If we continue to have an attitude that all are welcome, we may just be in danger of our demographics be severally changed and end up in a country we don't recognize.
Sharlee01 you sound just like her and she was reprimanded for saying essentially the same thing you've just said which is sad, I'm surprised she's still employed but then again, it's fox fiction channel so I guess we can't be too surprised: But it's too late to roll back time because the demographics are changing and have been for centuries and thank GOD for that:
BTW: I don't claim to know where your relatives were in the 1940's nor do I really care, but mine were enlisted in the allied forces during WW2 and they bravely contributed to crushing the Hitlers, Nazis and White Nationalist Trumps of the world who actually believed they were superior which is absolute nonsense, and in fact, they are inferior to the average human being:
Agreed. Any migration or refugee crises needs to be dealt with the constitution of the country the people are moving to. If they don't follow the constitution of the land they are marching towards, they can't expect to live a fruitful life there.
Jakes point is fair in the sense that most people who comment have not been in touch with the other demographic and I almost always agree with his points. But as I see it, this is not a discussion against immigration, but illegal (basd on the law) movement of people across borders.
In all fairness, only those migrants that meet the legal requirements should be taken it. It's not the best solution, but laws and their adherence is what keeps countries running.
It's not right to say there are people dying in gun massacres and therefore allowing more migrants in should not be the big concern. For a democracy to function every problem and situation has to be dealt with in its own right. Comparing apples and oranges is something Ed used to be very good at. That's not you. I'm sure many of the best people you know are from south of your borders, no doubt about that. Without the right screening and procedures there could be a new shooter walking in. Also, if the law is firm people like this would not attempt to come over, and more people who would actually contribute and deserve this better life would have the guts to take the walk, because they are in no danger from the goons walking besides them.
Hello lobobrandon, you are right about what this discussion should really be about :
"But as I see it, this is not a discussion against immigration, but illegal (basd on the law) movement of people across borders. "
I think Ken and Wilderness made essentially the same point, (although Wilderness did expand it to discuss effects): the issue is about national sovereignty and the rule of law.
But for the counter argument that our borders should be open to all - the emotional images and descriptions of mothers and babies, or leaving everything to walk thousands of miles, too easily turns it into a an emotional and moral discussion that quickly loses sight of the original and basic point.
It isn't about the U.S. denying immigration to folks that want a better life; it has been pointed out that we have, and continue to accept millions. So to base an argument on that can have nothing more than an emotional base, because facts belie it.
To that point your disagreement with Wilderness' comment, and agreement with Jake's is puzzling. It seems they are both talking about the same thing; our rule of law, and the impact of ignoring it.
In Wilderness' case, which your above quote seems to imply agreement with, he seems to be speaking of the national impact of ignoring our immigration laws, and Jake's comment seems to address the personal, (illegal immigrant's), impact - approving of sub-standard pay and work conditions, and the selfish personal impact of paying customers taking advantage of that cheap labor. Like that $7 car wash he mentions he is glad he doesn't have to pay $10 for.
In both cases, someone or something is damaged. In the latter case, two "someones" are damaged. The illegal immigrant being work abused, (pay/conditions, but Jake is okay with that), and the thousands of immigrants that are in line to immigrate legally.
Your point was right; this isn't about the reasons for the caravan, it is about the intent of the caravan.
I can have compassion for the reasons of the caravan -- and I think most folks would also -- but that is my heart, (emotion), speaking. My head, (reason), knows that we must be a nation of laws to survive. And that we can do that and still have compassion for immigrants wanting ti come to the U.S. - ruled compassion. Compassion directed by laws. Which, we already do everyday within the processes of our immigration laws.
Fair comment lobobrandon but let's not forget the fact that a Honduran, Irishman, German or Mexican who crosses the border of the USA is not breaking any laws and that's probably how the relatives of many individuals around here arrived in the USA, but you know who is breaking laws on a constant basis? Yup, Bozo Trump the orange quasi-dictator who apparently believes in his sick little mind that he can disobey established laws, write new laws while lying on his bed eating a cheeseburger and bucket of greasy fried chicken and IGNORE the U.S. Constitution at the same time while his company accepts money from foreign entities which could include our arch enemies: Thank GOD it looks like the Mueller Team seems to have the goods on this charlatan:
Federal Judges have SLAMMED Bozo on several legal issues and here's the latest example:
"Federal Judge Blocks Trump’s Proclamation Targeting Some Asylum Seekers"
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/20/us/j … olicy.html
Yeah, the Bozo is a different issue altogether.
And you are not breaking a law by walking into a home. Unless that home is not yours, of course, which is what the caravan is trying to do. This is not their country, and whether Honduran, Irishman, German or Mexican matters not at all unless they have an personal invitation to enter.
Nothing more to say but you're just wrong wilderness plain and simple and a federal judge just slammed Bozo Trump for trying to write his own retarded laws:
Walking into a home and walking across a border are two completely different events and it depends upon the circumstances when you walk into another owners home without permission as to whether or not the individual can be prosecuted: If said individual enters another persons property out of necessity for instance escaping dire weather events or injury from another person and or entity, or to protect his or her children, there's not a judge in the universe who would convict him or her for trespassing or breaking and entering:
"Walking into a home and walking across a border are two completely different events"
Sure enough - they are. But they are both quite illegal, unless you have an invite, now aren't they? That one has no door or wall (yet) does not make it legal to cross, does it?
"If said individual enters another persons property out of necessity for instance escaping dire weather events or injury from another person and or entity, or to protect his or her children, there's not a judge in the universe who would convict him or her for trespassing or breaking and entering"
Maybe in your world. I like to think that our judges understand their position in the system, and it is NOT to either make or ignore laws. It is to enforce them, and to do so whether they like them or not.
Or would you prefer that our glorious president get to make his laws, too, and decide which ones we all need not follow because we don't like them?
Well wilderness, WHY don't you choose to discuss the facts? The laws here in the USA are quite clear and unambiguous and as I stated in my prior comment, the legal defense of 'necessity' will protect an individual if he she enters another individuals property to avoid a potentially harmful situation:
Let the truth set you free:
The Criminal Defense of Necessity
"The defense of necessity may apply when an individual commits a criminal act during an emergency situation in order to prevent a greater harm from happening. In such circumstances, our legal system typically excuses the individual’s criminal act because it was justified, or finds that no criminal act has occurred."
And BTW, no human being needs an engraved invitation to cross borders, that's just silly:
"The laws here in the USA are quite clear and unambiguous"
You are right - they are clear and unambiguous, never saying anyone can violate the law because they think they need to. If you think it is legal to cross the border without permission, because you live in poverty, because you don't like your government or because the gang lord is out to get you, provide a link to the federal law allowing such a border crossing.
(You might consider as well that none of those caravan people were being persecuted or in immediate danger of any kind. The UN and other organizations are providing food, water and medical care and Mexico is providing a place to squat. No need to cross our border for anything at all.)
I won't hold my breath, but you are free to do that.
"And BTW, no human being needs an engraved invitation to cross borders, that's just silly"
Actually, they do, although the engraving is pretty poor quality. It's called a "visa" - you might look that up.
Jake doesn't look things up, he keeps repeating his opinions as if they were facts, and spews insults out (mostly directed at Trump) when he feels that isn't working.
Laws of this country don't matter to him, borders don't matter to him, labels like legal or illegal don't matter to him, paying a contractor who is insured and pays taxes VS paying an illegal, under the table, and not contributing via taxes to support the society from which he expects all sorts of services doesn't matter to him.
Attempting to discuss things with him rationally and factually you may find to be somewhat futile effort.
Sorry wilderness, but a visa is not a requirement for anyone to cross the border and that's just a simple fact and I'd suggest that you never enter a courtroom to argue against the law of necessity because the judge just might not think too kindly of you:
lol, Ken, I don't know how it's humanly possible, but I think you might have me confused with Bozo who IGNORES laws and IGNORES our constitution and who thank GOD, appears to be according to devastating investigative reports, on his way straight to prison for a very very long time:
lol: Maybe he can give prison seminars on his version pertaining to how people vote multiple times and how drones wouldn't be able to fly over his once imagined, useless delusional border wall or how to conceal your tax returns or how to write your own immigration laws only to have them over turned by a federal judge: lol:
BTW: As I stated in my prior comments, a visa is not a requirement to cross the border and you should 'look up' 'necessity' as a defense:
"As I stated in my prior comments, a visa is not a requirement to cross the border"
Yes, we know you said that. But so little of what you claim is actually true that there is absolutely zero reason to think that this one is.
A quick Google search is all you need to see the requirements for crossing into the U.S. from Mexico. And, falling back on necessity is crazy. The migrants walked all the way through Mexico. There is no immediate danger, even if they left their home country because of violence.
What about the ones that have had their refugee or asylum requests denied, and repeatedly re-cross our borders to enter illegally?
What about the ones that cross our borders illegally and never intend, nor attempt to request refugee or asylum status?
Are any of those breaking our laws crossing illegally Jake?
The 46 million legal immigrants are US citizens and should not be classified as immigrants any more. Unless you want to make an issue out of Ivana Trump or Madeleine Albright (top of my head celebrity immigrants).
Immigrants have always been a scapegoat. It's an easy target. They are vulnerable, exploited and looked down upon. And on top of that be seen as people who exploit the higher living standard to the expense of the "original" inhabitants. (like the jews in Nazi Germany where compared with leaches.)
Don't go that way Wilderness, as it's a rhetoric used by fascist movements. And I don't think you fall in that category.
The immigration theme also plays a part in Europe. And tha't why I made a comment on this subject. As the caravan is almost a symbol, just like the photo of the dead body of a child washed ashore on the Mediterranean coast.
A view months ago Spain harboured a big boat full of immigrants in my city Valencia. The boat was refused by Italy. Personally my life and income has not changed one bit after the boat harboured in Valencia.
The city of Valencia does not have more or less crime then before.
The fear mongering by the right-wing and populist newspapers frightens me at times.
My personal experience is that the people who fear foreigners often don't know any personal. The votes that go to anti islam and anti foreigner rhetoric parties are often living in villages that hardly have any foreigners at all. The country side and the isolated towns.
Again to me it's the same rhetoric used in the '30 against the Jews in Germany.
People do not leave there country, their family and friends. Unless they have good reasons to do.
I left my home country (Holland) for Spain as to find a better life. It's not easy, and I was in a luxurious position. (white, European, male, money)
It's sad but if you're black/coloured, no money and the wrong religion (Islam in this case) people all to often say no, not my house.
Or as a famous blues lyric tells us.--- If you're white, you're all right, if you're brown, stick around, but oh brother, if you're black, get back, get back---
Maybe it's personal, but I'm from Jewish heritage and my grandfather was almost taken away by the Germans, and he himself had stowaways in his house. That's why I think you should help people if they are in need. I know I'm painting an extreme situation during WWII but some refugees and immigrants are really in need of help and sending them back would mean death or torture.
And with the extreme right-wing populism on the rise it's good to think back at the '30.
I couldn't have said it better. I was very disappointed with the reply by Wilderness, didn't expect something like that from someone who I know is logical and educated.
Some things are differences in opinion, but this isn't an opinion. Most of those 46 million migrants are what is keeping the American society alive, it just wouldn't be the same without them. Better? I don't think so. Think of any niche and you'd find migrants are in the top tiers contributing to the society.
Again, you are quite free with what belongs to someone else. Quite willing to give it away as you sit quietly in a city without any negative consequences from massive immigration.
But I'm not in that enviable position; my country has millions upon millions of immigrants (and yes, an immigrant will remain an immigrant for life, whether American or not) in it. Legal, illegal and "in between" (OK to live here as a non-citizen). And those immigrants DO affect our life, our income, our very culture.
You know, I've spoken to more than a few of those millions of immigrants, and not a single one has advocated open borders. Not one. Does that tell you anything?
But you didn't indicate - is the refugee camp at the east end of the Chunnel still there, or have they been assimilated into the rest of the EU? Were they accepted as immigrants or are they still "in jail" for wanting EU wealth for themselves?
That is not what the issue is.
The country allows in one million immigrants a year, legally, who have applied.
In addition they give between 600,000 and 1 million work visas every year.
And in addition to that they allow in refugees and asylum seekers over and above the noted numbers, depending on the situation of those who apply.
So this is not about immigration, this about controlling the process, law and order, and ensuring the violent criminal elements that are trying to enter the country illegally to do harm are kept out.
This is about controlling the borders VS. open borders and lawlessness.
lol: lawlessness ?? Really Ken ?? We have an illegitimate president in our oval office who could care less about 'laws' and or our 'constitution' and or our 'judicial system' and 307 mass shootings so far in 2018, ALL of which were committed by citizens with papers and you're worrying yourself to the bone about undocumented immigrants who rarely commit crimes ?? Conservatives should really concentrate on the REAL problems, not the made up nonsense:
Have you ever even met an undocumented person Ken ?? Because it seems like many who say the same things you do might be out of touch: Well I have, and I'm around them all day every day and they perform a necessary service to this once great nation while keeping inflation in check, they perform more of a service than the disgraceful orange first family who appear to be on their way to either Moscow or Prison if we still have laws, which ever comes first
Know what's really disgusting, Jake? That there are employers that violate the law by hiring illegal aliens that are here against the law. And then they pay them wages that are against the law...and we have people that find all that to be a good thing as it "keeps inflation in check". Can't get much worse.
Who really cares about laws in the era of Bozo Trump ?? He sure doesn't and we pray to GOD the final chapter in his insane, ultra-chaotic, pathetic treasonous, neo-fascist nationalist era ends soon with a very long prison sentence without opportunity for parole:
Immigrants documented or not, are a valuable resource period, while the cruddy Trumps seem to be valuable assets to our arch enemies, just watch any number of film clips to corroborate that: If Bozo wants a wall so badly to keep out brown people who might replace his orange people, let him and his last remaining cultees pitch in and pay for one because I sure ain't chipping in a red cent for a useless pile of concrete that can be breached with ease or flown over:
He might wanna' stop making an idiot out of himself and incriminating himself on twitter daily and start confiscating private land from private landowners in Texas, CA, Arizona etc which would be a legal necessity before the construction of a useless wall can even begin, and let's see how that goes over with property owners: I'm sure they'll be thrilled:
"Immigrants documented or not, are a valuable resource period".
Jake, this isn't true, and you freakin' know it. The number of lies you joyfully espouse in the forums is astounding, and all for a radical leftists agenda to steal from others and coerce Americans into doing what YOU want them to do. It is at times also entertaining, but only because much of your rhetoric is so over the top that I get the chuckles. Thanks anyway for that.
The issue is not just law and order. It's far more complicated.
I just touched a part of it from an emotional perspective, the opposite from law&order perhaps. As this part is often looked down upon and immigrants are often pictured as criminals, which they are not. The Immigrants should not just be seen as numbers, but as real people.
The question should be asked: Why are people trying to enter the US and Europe.
The US and Europe have a long history of meddling into politics from other nations. They both didn't care about the bloody regimes in South America, Africa, the Middle East or Asia. They even encouraged dictatorships.
I think to minimize immigration it is the best to support less developed nations and make the situations in these country better to live in. If a country is liveable, less people will move away.
There are lots of ways to help countries. One thing that definitely does not help is a boycott. It hurts the economy and thus the people, but never the people in power.
Trade is often the best way to promote wealth. But trade in a way so the wealth really comes to the producers and not just the top 0.01% of a nation.
As the US and Europe tried to rule the world with wars and influence zones. They are also responsible for the human drama that is inflicted because of these wars and support for dictators.
That's why from a moral point of few you can not simply close the door and let people drown in the see or die in the desert.
actions and consequences
Peterstreep, speaking of the U.S., our door is not closed.
These are just one-source numbers for general consumption. I am not chasing statistics just to throw numbers at you. I am not standing behind them, and offer no links as authority. They are just there to frame the discussion. . If you have more accurate numbers - give it a go.
In 2016 we accepted almost one and a half million immigrants.
We accept about six million immigration applications - for processing - each year, and currently have a backlog of over half a million.
As of 2017 it is estimated that one-fifth of the world's immigrants are in the U.S.
That doesn't sound like a closed door to me.
Also, as for helping those immigrant countries improve. It looks like we gave around a billion dollars to South American countries for internal improvements in 2016.
Yet, if we try to force a group of five or six thousand, in a mass group entry attempt, to at least follow our immigration process requests, then we are heartless bigots slamming our doors shut. Geez.
Well said. Are we termed heartless bigots because the people with the highest standard of living in the world, according to them, does not want to share their riches with the poor?
Thank you for the info GA Anderson,
No put like that it sounds definitely not like a closed door.
I just checked what the EU is doing on europa.eu/eurostat.
"The number of people residing in an EU Member State with citizenship of a non-member country on 1 January 2017 was 21.6 million, representing 4.2 % of the EU-28 population." (The Brexit not counted yet..)
I guess the misconception is due to the fact that Trump is making such a big deal out of this caravan in his campaign. Apparently there are caravans every year. As it is saver for the people to travel together.
If all the media coverage is about this caravan and how rough it will be treated when crossing the border. Calling weeping children actors etc.
It's hardly a surprise that people get the wrong impression from the US and sees it as a heartless bigot. (a name I defiantly would give Trump, but I think he has an Asperger syndrome). The president though is luckily not the same as the average American (I hope not.). I do not confuse politics with the man on the street.
Hi peterstreep, I am glad to see that a different perspective, from what the media and politicians present, can be accepted.
I think -- looking at the bigger picture -- the U.S. is a very generous and caring nation. But of course I do have a bias regarding the mater. ;-)
From what you say, the EU has a long way to go to match immigrant population of the US. Want some from South America?
Trump presents one side of the picture; media and liberals (and EU residents) present another. Both are grossly exaggerated - for instance, those "weeping children" you mention. Something like 90% of that caravan is adult male, not children, so why is it only the weeping children (just punished by their parents?) that is mentioned?
The popular perception is that 7000 people are running from persecution and gangs that they will not control themselves; the reality is that they are running from poverty, wishing to participate in the freebies the US hands out.
Both perceptions of that caravan are spun nearly out of recognition with reality, then, but the single indisputable fact remains that they are here to enter the US any way possible, legal or not, and that cannot be permitted. That it is a caravan at all is a political ploy by supporters - nothing more or less than another attempt to open US borders to the poor of the world.
Great question. I think it's long overdue for Congress face the fact we need to revise our immigration laws. We have always been a very accommodating country when it comes to immigration. However, times have changed, and our laws are not working to benefit American citizens. In my opinion, we need to have a good strong border, with laws that benefit America and its citizens. No one should be allowed to just walk in and break our immigration laws.
Do you think there is a lack of basis to stop these immigrants? Statutes,rules and procedures are there established before a foreign national attempts to cross the borders into a sovereign State.That's my argument. Few of them will be protected by Law.They should inter alia be eligible for a protected status and Asylum.thank you
"They should inter alia be eligible for a protected status and Asylum."
What does that mean? Are you advocating for asylum even thought they do not meet the requirements for it?
You are right. Yes, Some of them meeting the requirement will be granted Asylum.
A small handful may indeed meet the requirements, but the large majority probably won't. Don't forget, simple poverty is not sufficient.
My main idea is to advise the Caravan members not to use force while attempting to cross a border of a sovereign state. As result,Some of them who do not opt for throwing stones to the Cops and other aggressive behavior,as you say meeting as well all requirement provided for by immigration law will find themselves living legally in the US
I mean" Throwing stones to police officers, this fact , is not a best way to complying with immigration Law
http://www.cbs8.com/story/39466430/firs … in-tijuana
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol … 990163002/
A video link to the story (older info):
US troops deployed:
It's quite apparent what we have here, the tiny minority of 'rock throwers' look more and more like 'conservative donor financed' ACTORS who were embedded within the real caravan to project the appearance of a restless mob whereas the overwhelming majority of genuine Hondurans seek peaceful salvation:
Throwing rocks toward the entrance in which you're trying to gain access which is still considered a minor incident NOT an invasion, makes ZERO sense because it's probably not going to help your cause: That's why it smells rotten, just like a conservative republican Bozo Trump led phony hoax: This is absolutely a 'Bozo Trump Style' stunt to try and get tax payer financing for his useless 2000 mile pile of concrete:
Its true, this is a concerted effort to overwhelm the EU, as well as North America.
The driving forces behind these efforts are varied, much like you have unusual bed partners under the umbrella of the Democratic Party these days (IE - LGBTQ groups united in 'common cause' support of Sharia Law pushing Islamic groups would seem to defy logic) there seem to be forces that would normally be opposed to one another working in unison to break down societal norms and nation states at a pace that is ultimately going to cause the collapse of western civilization, its culture, its history, its norms, and ultimately Democracy (legitimate people powered Democracy).
I understand international corporations, the UN, IMF, WB, etc. all seeing the benefit (power and profit) of forcing this to occur... but they have chosen some strange bedfellows and are risking the collapse of the global economy and civilization to do so.
Ken , Wonder if the government isn't trying to rather conveniently sell us The Wall , Daca , ANY legislation that they haven't been able to move on for fear of each party losing political capital . KInd of like coming in the back door with anything ? Trying to get the polls over 50-52 % in support ?
I also saw on the news that they had broken through Mexican police and were driven back from American soil with tear gas. Does anyone question the wisdom of the military, and it's resources, being there any more? When a mob storms police it's going to take more than a "Pretty please?" to stop.
So true Dan, after all, they probably have some nasty burritos to attack the military with. Be very afraid!!!
This is what emboldens the migrants to push through barriers, throw rocks at police, rush the border with no concern for the rule of law. Someone comments about a concern on the caravan; an idiotic (and racist, by the new standards of the left) statement about burritos is right behind it.
If you don't understand the ramifications of the problem of allowing this publicity stunt to be successful and our borders thrown wide open, you can't be part of the solution. If you have no respect for law, you'd certainly support the rock throwing.
Well it is more than a publicity stunt.
I do suggest that all who are interested in commenting take a moment to watch this video which is only a few minutes long "Ami Horowitz: The Truth Behind the Caravan" :
It is an MSNBC aired piece, so even the left should consider the facts presented as, well, factual.
Its important to recognize what he is presenting, that it is being supported and supplied by the United Nations, in addition to organizations like 'People Without Borders' and that this is not a one-time thing, this is just one of a constant flow of 'caravans' that has long been occurring and is now being ramped up by international powers (such as the UN).
Publicity stunt was the wrong wording, but the world is watching. If this caravan gets waived in, unimpeded, we will see a growing flow. Mexico let them in, ferried them along the way, I say it's their problem dealing with the mass of people until they are granted asylum or, whatever. I've seen interviews with people who applied at the consulates in their home countries, waited for approval and then immigrated. Lawfully.
If the people in this caravan have no respect for laws prior to entry how will they abide by them after entry? Why would they abide by them? We would have already shown them there is reward in thumbing their noses. At that point why should we abide by them?
And you are right. The UN resolution on the issue is troubling.
I've said it before. Liberals in these forums feel no appreciation of the written laws in America at all , at least until they become direct victims . When their gated communities are overrun and they see tent cities cropping up next to their malls , choice restaurants , peaceful college campuses , backyard pool parties , until the crime and drug waves hit their neighborhoods , their children and wives become victims . Then all hell breaks loose . Dial 911 for someone to scream at . Until then they can drive their Priuses right by the open borders , tents in the woods , the tarps over shopping carts and never see anything out of the usual .
What do I think? I think I feel terribly for people who are desperate to leave their homes. I think the photos of shoeless, crying children are heartbreaking.
But I think it’s an unmanageable number of people, and I think granting them all asylum sets an unmanageable precedent.
I am fiercely supportive of taking in refugees and asylum seekers. But it has to go through the right channels and it can’t be a bombardment.
A part (a large part) of the problem seems to revolve around just what is a refugee and what is asylum? The large majority of those in the caravan are "refugees" from poverty, nothing more - do we owe them what we have built because they are poor? Interviews make no bones that they are coming here for the benefits we offer our people - is it our responsibility to feed, clothe and house the world because it makes us sad to see them?
The whole world? No. But just because you can’t save everyone doesn’t mean you shouldn’t save anyone. As someone who was lucky enough to be born in a country with lots of opportunities to thrive, I do feel it’s my responsibility to extend some compassion to people who were not as lucky.
Yes, we can "save" someone. Considering that there are already 10 million in the country illegally, along with millions more of actual immigrants, how many would you suggest? Half a billion? When that half billion is feeding off Americans, will you still be compassionate and want to bring more in?
You feel it's your responsibility to extend compassion...to how many? And is it your responsibility to force third parties to support those you have compassion for?
It's never so simply as to say "I feel bad for them, so they can come". There are always other sides to the question.
I think we should do like Mexico did. Ferry them North. To Canada. Maybe they can take care of them?
I think that would be an absolutely great idea, anyone willing to go to Canada we put them on buses and transport them all the way to that border and have Canada take them, if of course Canada is willing.
But right now we are not dealing with this issue in a rational way, and I understand that is partly because this is a battle of wills between Trump and U.S. Sovereignty VS. the U.N. and organizations wanting a borderless world.
A rational way would be to build large processing sites where food, shelter and security is provided, process the applicants, and accept or deny them based on a specific criteria (IE - keep out known murderers and rapists) provide healthcare, etc.
In addition to these facilities, build the wall, to help deter drug traffickers, and slave trade operations, etc. If you want to preserve society and safety it is required. If you are looking to create a more lawless, borderless, anything goes country where only those living in walled and gated communities are safe... then keep things the way they are, we will be there soon enough.
I thought I was pretty clear when I said that I don’t think they should all be allowed in because it sets an unmanageable precedent? I’m not sure why you’re directing this argument at me.
Unless you’re against taking in any number of refugees I don’t think we actually have a different opinion on this issue.
I'm just happy some Honduran migrants from this parade to the promised land will inevitably make it through to salvation, they will have a better life and continue to build this once great country, even now in Bozo Trump's limited term crazy land:
I prefer to pay $7 to get my car washed by hard working undocumented human beings and lower priced dinning experiences:
"I am fiercely supportive of taking in refugees and asylum seekers."
So how many refugees have you helped? How have you helped any refugee or asylum seeker?
Or is your idea of "fierce" just giving lip service to it? That isn't what anyone would consider fiercely supportive, except maybe someone who is a hypocrite out of touch with reality.
Says no one...
Put up a bio or write something and perhaps someone will give a damn what you think.
Seeing as you stalk me to keep saying that it looks like YOU are THE ONE who gives a damn about everything I say.
I simply don't like non-writers or non-persons giving an opinion on a writer's forum. Why are you afraid for anyone to know who you are? You could be a criminal or even one of Trump's trolls for all we know. As it is, your opinion is worth that of any frightened person hiding in anonymity. Understand now?
Pay no attention to thus. That is the standard reply when he doesn't like what you say. I'm sure you'll get around to all of that in your own good time.
Thank you live to learn, i appreciate the fact you support me as a non-person but I think everyone knows Randy has plenty of diversions he uses when comfronted with facts he is at a loss to refute.
Did you see on the feed what I was just awarded ?
“La Veezta was awarded the Helpful accolade”
I guess HP not only recognizes non-persons but rewards them!
I've helped many refugees and undocumented human beings from other countries including Mexico, South America and Europeans from Poland, Hungary etc: I've helped them by hiring them to do jobs that nobody else will do: Undocumented individuals are very hard workers and perform the back breaking work at a deep discount which helps to keep a lid on inflation:
I find it ironic that many rabid conservatives who are actually children of UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS and who cry, whine, belly ache and have little tizzy fits about current undocumented immigrants who enter our country looking for a better life life actually live in states where undocumented individuals probably never go !! These fragile snowflakey republicans have probably never even seen an undocumented human in their lives:
Before I started back to work full-time I did community volunteering which helped refugees and immigrants integrate into daily life in their new country.
Is that sufficient enough for you or do I need to have refugees living in every room of my house to be able to use a word without your criticism?
Actually not really fierce. Why don't you take one in? You want the country to open it's doors and take them in so why won't you set an example and do it yourself?
That is what I would consider fiercely supportive.
Alright, I’ll use a different word next time. Thanks for keeping me humble.
I'd take in a house full of immigrants in a heartbeat before I'd even think about taking in a house full of evil Trumps and that's a no brainer: Not interested in opening up my domicile to dark forces which would be difficult if not impossible to evict from my premises, but I've had undocumented Individuals in my house on so many occasions I can't even count them, very good vibes:
Despite the constant lies and deception you hear from our oval office, surrogates and fox fiction channel, undocumented individuals are coming here for the very same reasons your ancestors came here, if of course you live here in the USA, and that's to work for a better life, not hoodwink Americans into a con job:
You'd take one set instead of the other, but you aren't taking either. What's your point?
If liberals truly cared about migrants and humanity they would actually support a border wall and immigration reform , Why ? They would end so many massive crimes against humanity in the process. .-Exploitation of workers -Sex trafficking -Income tax revenues-Rapes of female immigrants-Drug Addictions-Democratic voter roles-Census accuracy -Children's rights- Desert deaths
The greatest Democratic hypocrisy of all .
It seems to me the developed world has lost its sense of reason. We've got third world nations whose citizens think leaving, instead of working to make their nation a better place, is their best option; and people support that. Making foolish statements that we should let them in and provide support to the nations they are fleeing. So we should prop up inefficient governments while footing the bill for welfare for the immigrants.
We've got moral outrage because tear gas is used to keep foreigners from charging across our borders unchecked; but no moral outrage at the use of tear gas in the protests in France or water cannons in Belgium against legal citizens.
It just seems crazy.
Just curious what your strategy would be as a citizen of a third world country to “work to make it a better place” since you make it sound so simple.
Start with shooting gang members. Continuing with shooting crooked cops and politicians.
Freedom from such conditions is never free; we in the US have paid a very high price for our freedoms, from the dead of the revolutionary war to those of the civil war to people like MLK.
Others can do the same thing...if they are willing to do so. Unfortunately a much easier solution is being presented by much of the world - simply walk to the US and let the people there pay the price for the lifestyle you want. No need to pay it yourself.
And what makes you different from a gang member if you shoot one?
Are you still living in the Wild West or what....
No respect for the law, just do it yourself.
Do you think it's so easy to take a life away.
Have you killed any corrupt politician yet.!!
I don't see where wilderness suggested he was going to kill anyone. But, rampant lawlessness has to be dealt with in order to bring about the chance at a civil society. I don't know that I would advocate shooting cops, gang members and politicians; since such behavior puts those in jeopardy of losing their moral center but I would not look down on a government attempting to remove crime and corruption through sometimes violent acts. And, taking back the country from violent actors would not be peaceful, because the violent actors would not allow it to be.
If you choose (choose!) to do nothing then nothing will change. And that's exactly what is happening - the people are choosing to allow drug cartels, corrupt cops and politicians to run their country, abdicating any responsibility themselves by immigrating. If the only way out is a revolution, then so be it.
Or, as much as some people do not like it, elect a law and order goverment. We have one of the highest crime rates in the world and Brazilians have voted for a new government that will allow rural people to own guns. (The previous goverment outlawed guns.)
Protect yourself instead of running away to the US? Wow, what a concept.
"Or, as much as some people do not like it, elect a law and order goverment."
A great idea...if elections are allowed at all, and if elections are honest and free. Unfortunately they aren't.
With tens of thousands asking asylum, if it is not to protect themselves and their lifestyle, why do YOU think they are running to the US? Because we are begging them to do so?
Why do I think they are running to the US? Economics. In the US they can get a job and make in an hour or two what they earn in a day.
It is much easier to go to the US than stay at home and change things. (I think those refugee/illegals know they are not welcome. Unless your government stops them at the border, however, others will come.)
"Why do I think they are running to the US? Economics."
Then they are looking for protection from starvation. I am using the term for more than just physical abuse, murder, etc. It seems our disagreement is simply terminology, not anything deeper.
"In the US they can get a job and make in an hour or two what they earn in a day. "
While very true, it is unfortunate that they do not have even the most basic understanding of economics, or that their earnings of an hour in the US will not begin to buy what it will where they are now. What sounds like riches beyond dreams of avarice is not.
Not starvation. It is hard to explain to people working here why they are not going to do any better in life if they are making a lot more money per hour washing some guys car.
They do not understand that they have to pay to keep their home warm (something that no one worries about around here), pay a lot more even to live in a home, and pay a lot more for simple things like food and transportation.
That economic reality does not hit home until after they have crossed the border illegally. At that point, it is easier to stay there than go back and struggle for changes.
Just curious: If everyone should just stay in their own country and work for "CHANGE", why on Earth did the pilgrims leave Europe and come here to the USA ??
For most of them it was a matter of a big company hiring them to do so, earning that company more money. There were quite a few criminals, too, for some of the establishments were used as penal colonies.
Why? Did you think they were all Puritans, wishing to force their religion onto everyone else?
What a stunning argument. You are aware that things in Europe hundreds of years ago are exactly the same, right? The population was unchanged, borders were the same, there was freedom of religion everywhere, the European Economic Community helped poor countries like Europe and Portugal in times of need.
By the way, have you ever thought kind of economic hardships YOU are imposing on these people by subjecting them to slave wages when washing your car? What does $7 a hour work out to each year in economy like New Jersey (or whever you happen to live.)?
Most people who left were fleeing religious and political persecution. No, everything was not fine and dandy back in Europe back then: http://users.humboldt.edu/ogayle/hist110/expl.html
You do realize I was being sarcastic? No, things were not the same. It is impossible to compare the situation at that time, when there were so few people on the earth, to the situation that we have today.
In reality DrMark 1091, persecution for whatever reason is still persecution regardless of the century it occurs and for all we know, pilgrims came to the USA simply to conquer a new foreign land, unlike the Hondurans of today who are fleeing their home land out of fear for their children's lives, out of necessity:
You work to make it a better place by staying where you are. I am a Nordestino (Brazilian). It is not simple but is certainly something that all of us should be doing.
This is relatively true, and like Alzheimer's disease it is only going to become worse.
As I have brought attention to elsewhere and in articles, we have the UN with its Declaration for Refugees and Migrants & Global Contract for Migration that is putting forth efforts to expedite migration into the EU and North America. And in fact these efforts make it illegal to protest against such, or try and sustain the nation state.
This 'caravan' was monitored and funded by the U.N. something few reporters or news agencies even mention. In addition you have billionaires like George Soros funding the Open Society Institute, America’s Voice an open-borders group that promotes “comprehensive” immigration reform that includes a robust agenda in favor of amnesty for illegal aliens, American Immigration Council this non-profit organization is a prominent member of the open-borders lobby. It advocates expanded rights and amnesty for illegal aliens residing in the U.S. And on, and on, one man, with his billions, is funding nearly every open-border and illegal immigration effort in America and the EU.
I'll give the man credit, he set his sights on the destruction of Western Civilization and Nation States, and he is fully on the cusp of achieving it.
It's a brilliant tactic, fund every group, every agency, every non-profit that has the goal of breaking down borders or western society, and then use those agencies to inflame situations wherever and whenever possible.
Of course he is not the only one pushing these agendas that has endless wealth, the Saudi Royal Family has pushed certain agendas that is favorable to them, but certainly not in the best interests of America, International Corporations are only interested in profits and cheap labor, and if their efforts bring about the collapse of society or the Nation's economy in the process, oh well, that's not their problem.
The problem with a lack of Nation-hood, and a lack of cohesive society in which the population is bound to one another by common civil and social norms, is that there will be no pursuing the best interests of the future of America, or the future of Americans... when America doesn't matter to Americans, or worse, when America is considered the villain by Americans, there is only social upheaval and economic depression on it's horizon, and its decline is inevitable.
It's not crazy; it comes from the US being the whipping boy of the world; the solution to poverty everywhere if they can just shame us into being the world's nanny while other developed nations sit idly by and enjoy the standard of living they tell us we should try to reach one day...while giving everything to the third world nations.
This is a crisis. We can deal with it efficiently and compassionately, or we can bitch and moan and point fingers. Our president has chosen to use the migrant caravan as a political prop to stoke anger and fear in his followers. Obviously, it is working.
We should process these people the same way we do anyone who seeks entry to the U.S. If we need to hire extra temp workers to do it efficiently, then do it. If we need to set up a temporary tent city, then do it. If we can afford a defense budget greater than the Pentagon even wanted, then we can afford this. Just follow our laws and provide the leadership to get it done.
We should also be thinking long term about helping Honduras become habitable for its people. It is in our best interest to do so.
Well PP, I wouldn't say Bozo Trump crying and whining all day in a crazy incoherent twitter tizzy because he's afraid of Honduran women and child is 'working': It's actually backfiring on him and each day it seems more in his flock are finding better pastures on the democratic side:
Seen the latest GALLUP Poll ?? Bozo Trump at an all time LOW of 38% Approval and all time high of 60% Disapproval: We can't be surprised with that can we ??
The USA has moved on to REAL Issues, important issues progressive democrats were voted in to work on like providing Healthcare to ALL Americans, enhancing Social Security and Medicare, cancelling Bozo Trump's and republican's insane corporate welfare tax cut scam and re-directing our money back into our communities which need it instead of financing a few more mansions for the weirdo Steve Mnuchins of the world:
It is a crisis but I see no evidence of fear in the comments here, not of most people. Except for one bizarre one about changing demographics.
But, there are questions which are pertinent and are not addressed by your suggestions. We do not need to foot the bill or suffer the embarrassment of creating an unsafe tent city of economic opportunists. Your suggestion implies let everyone who walks up to the border in, if but temporarily. Then effectively jail them until we process them. I believe the democrats have already demanded that be stopped. The welfare of women and children will not be guaranteed if we just slap up some tents and a fence around them and shove people in; probably indefinitely. That sounds like the island in Australia where I wouldn't wish my worst enemy to be sent.
The main problem we face is not that Americans are scared. It is that some Americans understand the costs of just waving people in, whether we followed your suggestion of creating a third world style camp, catch and release, or any other option and people who don't understand that money and resources don't grow on trees.
I will add that a country showing a mass exodus of people is obviously mismanaged and probably rife with corruption. It is hard to help when those in power have already put in motion a system of corruption. I'm not inclined to support money being thrown at Honduras, without serious and provable guarantees that the average citizen will reap the benefits.
When you live in border state everyone knows there is no fear and there is no crisis when immigrants, just like the relatives of all who are posting here, venture to the USA to escape whatever was happening in their own countries: Fox Fiction Channel with Sean Hammity, Bozo Trump and others are simply perpetuating yet another tall tale, and just because they are frightened to death of everything non-lily white because they're obviously yellow, doesn't mean the vast majority of real men and women are frightened as well because we are not and we love human beings of ALL colors and creed:
So, with that said, unless you, Ken and wilderness are willing to over come to my house bi-weekly to wash my car for 7 bucks plus maybe a nice bottle of cool water just like hard working undocumented immigrants now do for me, I'd like to see several of the Hondurans achieve asylum so they can continue to provide a valuable service to me and this once great nation:
lol; If the day ever comes where all immigrants leave the USA and the cost of a car wash skyrockets to say $40 bucks, maybe I will wash my own car !!!! :
lol : Until then, I'll support my local IMMIGRANTS by providing them an employer so they can buy food n' stuff just like you !!!!
And we wonder why there are so many illegal aliens when we have unethical, immoral and criminal employers happy to pay them substandard wages because they're too cheap, greedy and sorry to pay Americans a living wage.
(By the way, substituting "IMMIGRANTS" for the correct, honest and informative term of "illegal aliens" doesn't fool anyone. We still know you aren't talking about actual immigrants - people that have become citizens of our great country - but criminal foreign citizens hiding from the law in America.)
You can't argue with people who cannot think beyond their lifetime.
"So, with that said, unless you, Ken and wilderness are willing to over come to my house bi-weekly to wash my car for 7 bucks plus maybe a nice bottle of cool water just like hard working undocumented immigrants now do for me, I'd like to see several of the Hondurans achieve asylum so they can continue to provide a valuable service to me and this once great nation"
Unless you'd be willing to come by my house and wash my car for $7.00, you're a hypocrite. What makes THEIR work any less valuable than yours? Once again, you're demonstrating that you don't give a rats butt about the truth.
Again, Jake has no interest in learning new facts, considering other positions or opinions, I would recommend saving your efforts for those who at least consider a point made before countering it.
We have 6 pages of posts on this matter now, anyone who wants to review the opinions, and presented points on the matter can find them already stated in the comments already made.
And as I try to point out, it isn't this particular 'caravan' for which I have much concern, it is the organizations that organized it, supported it, and funded it that is a concern to me... because their efforts are only going to grow with time, which means these thousands will become millions in a short period of time. That is the real concern.
I'll say it again, the "TRUTH" is I'm not interested in paying $40 to get my car washed I'd rather pay $7 and I'm not interested in paying $30 for chicken pot pie at my local restaurant I'd rather pay $6.99 and I'm not interested in paying $20 for a basket of fresh sweet strawberries I'd rather pay $1.99 and the lower prices are only possible by supporting our local undocumented workers who are simply trying to earn a living to survive, just like your relatives were supported by others when they crossed the border decades ago:
And please don't try to tell me all your relatives came across the border with a visa or engraved invitation because visas didn't even exist way back then nor did hallmark cards and please don't try to tell me they all wandered in through Ellis Island because they didn't: I can't believe some people are still beating this dead horse when we have REAL issues to solve like universal healthcare, mitigating mass shootings which have skyrocketed under Bozo trump, salvaging our relationships with our once solid and loyal allies and of course how to remove a circus clown betrayer from our oval office:
A crisis is a calamity, disaster, turning point. This doesn't quite deal with the fact that this is an ONGOING issue that goes back to the 80s, and has never been appropriately addressed, just as the 'open border' along Mexico has never been appropriately addressed.
This is one group, one caravan, this is one in a long line of never ending waves that have hit America for decades, and each time we fail to address the matter for the future. Up until this point, we have always just let them in, eventually, in total, providing immigration welfare for multiple years if not for life.
There is no temporary solution, for once one wave (caravan) is allowed in, another will come.
You (and many on here) fail to recognize or address the point I have made repeatedly, that this 'caravan' was supported by the U.N. as well as private and non-profit organizations in their efforts to get to the border... and of course these organizations, and the U.N. will sponsor and aid more caravans in the future to arrive here.
This is not something that will end with this 'caravan', it is likely only going to escalate in intensity and numbers.
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