Trump wants 5.6B for his wall and he is willing to shutdown the government for an extended period of time. If the government is shutdown for an extended period of time, that means he doesn't get his 5.B for however long the government is shutdown. How does that help him get his 5.6B during that period?
It has been two years and he still hasn't built his wall and yet the number of apprehensions has been decreasing. Now he wants to declare it a national emergency and call in the military to build the wall.
How does giving in and accepting nothing towards the wall get him a wall?
Apprehensions are down, yes. So is the number of border patrol. They would seem to go hand in hand, wouldn't they? Then throw in that there are growing consequences to illegal crossing, consequences that liberals hate and do what they can to eliminate (do you think Obama would have stopped the caravan in Mexico?), and it seems even more apparent what is happening. Trump is happening.
Wilderness: Obama didn't live in fantasy land, nor did his supporters. Trump plays to his own fantasies and his supporters and says whatever is politically expedient at the moment. He doesn't even care if he is caught in his own lies by showing videos of him saying the opposite of what he is saying at the moment, like having Mexico pay for the wall.
You do understand that you and I are going to pay for the 5.6B he wants and that all the people who are not working now because of the shutdown will have to receive back pay for doing nothing during the shutdown? All because Trump wants to hold them hostage while he throws his temper tantrums.
He doesn't have his wall now but yet according to you he has stopped the caravan. It is going to take a long time to build his wall and during that period people are still going to cross the border. Drugs are not brought into this country by foot, they come in by air and marine borne means.
"Obama didn't live in fantasy land"
Now that is patently false. No one living in reality could possibly think that the country could provide unlimited health care to every person here. Yet he seemed to, and thought he could do it without bankrupting the country to boot!
Yes, I know we will pay the 5B, and that we will pay people that were laid off. This is nothing new; Obama did and so have others. I'd be very happy to pay that 5B, along with another 20B if it put a significant dent in the 100B we pay every year as a result of illegal aliens residing here.
People will enter illegally while we build the wall. And that is a reason to NOT build it? You don't make even a little bit of sense!
"Nearly all of the heroin fueling a U.S. resurgence enters the country over the 1,933-mile Mexico border, according to the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration.
Customs officers in Nogales have seized more heroin in the first six months of fiscal 2014 than during each of the past three full fiscal years, Agosttini said.
Most is hidden in vehicles crossing through ports of entry like the bustling Nogales gate. Smaller amounts are carried in on foot by men dubbed "mules," hiking established desert smuggling routes. Some is ferried in by plane or boat." https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat … e/9713909/
"Traffickers typically smuggle the drugs in through secret compartments in vehicles across the border (illegally and legally), transport them to stash houses in hub cities like Dallas, Los Angeles and Phoenix, and then distribute to the Midwest and East Coast. https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete … rn-border/
This would seem to contradict your claim that drugs come in (primarily) by air and water.
Wilderness: Please read this article I wrote about AMOC. Trump probably doesn't know this operation exists. Border security is based on a system of different security components, not just a wall. If he wants to spend 5.6B on just a wall that already exists, then he is missing the boat, no pun intended.
https://letterpile.com/personal-essays/ … ur-Borders
Of course it is a system of many different things, not just a wall. Is that a reason not to use a wall to supplement/increase what little security we already have?
I don't think so. It's like saying we have cops on the beat and therefore do not need locks on our doors or security systems.
It seems like you're trying to insinuate that the thought is that if we have a wall we need nothing else. No one, not a single rational person, would make such a comment, so I'm at a loss as to why you're trying to promote it.
Wilderness: Trump keeps trumpeting (no pun intended) about his wall and that it is a national security issue if he doesn't get his "save all wall."
But in fact it is about more than a wall. If he knows that, why doesn't he state what it is really about? At times, he says it is concrete, then it is steel, and then it is a barrier, but it is never anything else in his mind. This leads me to believe that is what he wants, not a system of high security components, if he did, he would express it differently. He leads people to believe that 5.6B is only for the wall and it will solve his border problem.
He lives in the White House that is not only protected by a wall, but a whole integrated high level security system, made up of sensors and people, but he is only fixated on his border wall.
You're absolutely right; it's about more than a wall, it's about securing our borders.
But would he express it differently? Would his campaign have been effective if he made a 2000 page report available to the public about exactly what he wanted? Should he have detailed how many men, and what equipment, should be placed in each mile of the border?
Should he have described how it all works and comes together? And would it then have been effective after being made public? The answer to both, IMO, is a resounding "NO!" - people won't read details as all they want is security and "wall" is the best way to express it. Your own article shows that; no one even knows about it...because they're not interested in details. Only results, and so far 20 million illegals in the country don't show a lot of results.
The DHS have moved away from using the number of apprehensions as a proxy of illegal immigration between ports of entry(1).
Apprehensions are now incorporated into a rate which includes attempted unlawful entries. They use two different models, one based on estimates, the other observations. The rate indicates ". . . the difficulty of illegally crossing the border successfully"(2). So higher is better:
And here are detected unlawful entries(4)
And here are estimated undetected unlawful entries(5)
And here are detected and estimated successful unlawful entries(6)
And here is the probability of being detected making an unlawful entry(7)
And here is overall border deterrence(8)
(1) https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files … Report.pdf (p.9)
(2) ibid (p.7)
(3)(4) ibid (p.13)
(5) ibid (p.15)
(6) ibid (p.19)
(7) ibid (p.21)
(8) ibid (p.58)
Gee Don, I'm not terrified of the criminals and terrorists crossing the border any longer. But those on the right won't believe the stats unless DT or Limbaugh or Hannity or Colter tells them too. Sad but true!
Well the DHS report those stats are taken from was published in May 2018, so they have been compiled by the Trump administration.
Of course these stats don't mean border security is perfect, but they do indicate that the current narrative about the border is alarmist and typically reactionary.
While it's nice that the method of reporting, the data given, has been changed to show how great the border patrol is, it remains that the 4th graph shows that approx 200,000 people successfully sneak over the border and disappear into the crowd.
This isn't a problem? 200,000 illegal aliens entering each year is OK because the rate of capture is up and we catch 800,000 out of the million trying to enter?
It's difficult to follow this logic, at least for me. What it tells ME is that while we're doing better than in the past, we're not doing nearly well enough - something else needs to be tried.
Wilderness: Like what building a wall? How did you come up with a million people are trying to enter? If Trump wants 5.6B to enhance border security, why doesn't he tell the people in simple terms what he needs it for?
It would be a much easier sell. He could tell them that he needs to not only improve the existing wall, but to improve the other components of border security including , improvements to marine, and ground senors, aircraft, boats, and their associated staffing. Either he really thinks it is all about his wall or he wants to use the money for other means. It begs the question, why 5.6B for an already existing wall?
Of course illegal immigration is a problem, and it needs to be addressed. But the idea that the current level of border crossings is a crisis, or state of emergency, is alarmist nonsense.
If the sky did not fall between 2000 - 2008 when more than a million people were crossing the border illegally each year, the sky will not fall now there are significantly fewer crossings.
And that reduction doesn't mean everyone at the DHS has now packed up and gone home. It continues to try to reduce those numbers further. For 2018 the DHS received(1):
$975.8 million for high-priority tactical infrastructure and border security technology improvements to provide a layered defense at the border.
$1.6 billion for 32 miles of new border wall construction, 28 miles of levee wall along the Rio Grande Valley, 14 miles of new border wall system that will replace existing secondary fence in the San Diego Sector.
In 2017 the DHS received (2):
$292 million for 40 miles of replacement fence along the Southwest border
$79 million for border technology
$16 million for an additional multi-role enforcement aircraft
$32 million for six additional light enforcement helicopters
$44 million for continued deployment of Integrated Fixed Towers
$19 million for the small unmanned aerial system program
And if you have a business case for a solution that will significantly reduce illegal border crossings further, at a reasonable cost, feel free to share it.
In the meantime, current factual information indicates the "crisis" is a false narrative. Most likely manufactured to feed into the fear of people who are predisposed to that type of fear-mongering.
(1) https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files … 0Final.pdf
(2) https://www.dhs.gov/news/2017/05/15/fac … 7-budget-0
Don W: Thank you so much for that information. It makes me wonder if Trump is trying to appropriate, in part or in whole, that 5.6B for something other than his wall
"If the sky did not fall between 2000 - 2008 when more than a million people were crossing the border illegally each year, the sky will not fall now there are significantly fewer crossings. "
Except, once more, the "crisis" is not that there are illegal border crossings; it is that there are 20 million illegal aliens inhabiting our country and draining our resources.
Saying that it is not a severe problem because the rate of growth of that number is falling does not work, not for anyone. When the number of illegals in the country begins to fall, then the "crisis" may be at an end (although the problem hasn't ended, just the severity of it). So far that hasn't happened, as that total number continues to rise. And yes, when our country is so strapped for cash that we can't even come up with a measley 5B to avert collapse of economy and culture, it is already a crisis. As is the growing number of Americans that find no problem with an uninvited, illegal and damaging invasion. Mostly because they are being taught that it isn't a problem and that it is actually good for the country to house and support an extra 20 million people.
Wilderness: How do you propose deporting 20 million illegal aliens? What is your source for 20 million? Here is a link that should put illegal immigration stats into perspective.
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illeg … tatistics/
Just one more reason WHY this mad lunatic public Vladimir Putin appeaser must be REMOVED ASAP by Impeachment / Indictment before he successfully achieves total destruction of the USA:
By suggesting he might obstruct the re-opening of our government indefinitely for some illusory wall and made up foe, it appears as if Trump has successfully sealed the DOOM of the republican senate in 2020 just like he sealed the DOOM of the republican congress in the 2018 midterms:
Many of Mr. Trump's former cult members seem to have been and continue to be deprogrammed thank God, but how many more betrayals of the USA in broad daylight must his remaining yet dwindling flock witness on global television before the light goes on ?? Hopefully not many more:
Jake: There are now two republican senators who supported the wall who are now saying they want the government to open now. So maybe there is hope.
peoplepower, there is hope i agree, and it's just a matter of time before more republican senators toss Donald off his Titanic but that still doesn't save the GOP Senate from total collapse in 2020: Corrupt Impotent Republicans and that includes Donald, lost the house by a record number of votes in the midterms and the same will happen to the republican senate in 2020 unless Trump is long gone by then and still it might not save them:
Almost a million government workers stranded without pay because an idiot lunatic who could care less about the American people is serving his sick ego: Unacceptable and a Violation of his Oath:
Even the last remaining gullible Trump followers are finally looking past his never ending, babbling stream of bs, hate and angry racism which spews from his mouth either a result of his narcissism or mental illness as ivy league experts have warned us about, and they are horrified: Transferring trillions to Wall Street and SABOTAGING our HealthCare System are Bozo's and republican's only accomplishments to date and that's ABOMINABLE:
"Unacceptable and a Violation of his Oath:"
Really? Can you point to where his oath says he must provide employment for those wishing to work for the feds? Or are you pointing to the part where he swore to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States"... Including that part where the job of congress, and the president, is to "guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion". (Article 4 section 4 of the Constitution)
Bozo's oath is to protect the constitution which explicitly states he must protect the general welfare of we the people, the law of the land which he violates almost daily:
it's clearly articulated in the constitution but I don't think anyone at this point would expect Bozo Trump to ever become acquainted with this vitally important document:
I think what the Constitution meant by "invasion" was more like what happened on 9/11 or Pearl Harbor, not an invasion of hungry people trying to escape their own annihilation. If that's what it meant, I don't the U.S. would have ever put up that gift nicknamed Lady Liberty from the French.
We ALL want the government to open. So convince your liberal legislators that we really do need, and demand, a secure border and cough up a little cash to begin the process of reversing what their decades of ignoring their duty has given us.
Bozo seemingly not understanding a thing about our government or our constitution probably thinks he can postpone his inevitable impeachment by OBSTRUCTING the re-opening of our government so he probably could care less about when Americans go back to work:
FYI: Progressives have already 'coughed up' 1.3 Billion for real border security, money we can't even afford considering Bozo's BALLOONING Deficit, but not a penny for an easily breached great illusory 50 Billion Dollar concrete wall in Bozo's head to fend off some invisible made up foe which doesn't even exist:
Want more money for Trump's illusion ?? Some nut case alt righter started a 'go fund me' to raise money, WHY not send him a check ??
"Progressives have already 'coughed up' 1.3 Billion for real border security"
No they didn't. They proposed wasting another 1.3 billion in doing the same thing that allows hundreds of thousands of illegals into the country. They desire to "progress" to the same failures that decades of buying votes produced.
This they called "compromise": give nothing, take all.
Yeah, I saw the gofundme page. Up to nearly 19M now...which should give some idea of what people want.
Sorry wilderness, but I and the vast majority of Americans don't share your frenzied snowflakey unjustified fear of some made up foe: We don't mind immigrants documented or not, cooking our hamburgers and fries at the local eatery, or cleaning our hotel rooms or mowing our lawns for a deep discount:
If you're frightened of immigrants, foreigners just like your relatives once were unless you're native American, or any other other people, just write a check for that 'go fund me' thing, as you said, they're up to 19 million: Not sure what the legalities are with regard to transferring donated funds to the federal government but hey, it's worth a shot right?
Yeah, we can tell that the "vast majority" of Americans want illegal aliens flooding our country so they can cheat them with $5 car washes. We know because of the 19 MILLION dollars collected from private donors towards a method of keeping them out.
I'm sure your ancestors enjoyed a higher pay here in the USA verses wherever they migrated from, otherwise they would have moved back to the country of their origin:
And guess what? Most of the money they earn goes right back into our economy, unlike the trillions in Corporate Welfare Tax Cuts Bozo and republicans unconscionably gave the filthy rich, that money gets shipped to foreign lands to avoid taxes, NICE:
Hey, if the Trump supporters want to finance his wall, that's ok with me. At least the money I pay in taxes won't be wasted on it. But homeless and hungry people can't donate to gofundme, so how long will that last?
lol, I don't even know how to respond to your last comment wilderness but let me try:
You're asking me to believe that undocumented workers rake in so much money from their jobs that after they pay all expenses from living here in the USA, they still have so much left over that they ship vast sums back home to foreign lands ?? REALLY ?? You actually expect a non-Trump follower who despises everything about him to believe that ?? Come on:
Documented individuals making much higher salaries can't even afford to ship vast sums of money to a foreign land and you expect me to believe under the table undocs have that kind of cash to burn ??
Honestly, I think you just made that up:
To appease his last few remaining alt right fascist followers Bozo Trump should just walk his ugly face in front of a camera tomorrow and tell his flock that the wall has already been built, they'll believe him: it's big, it's beautiful and the shiny door will allow many undocs from Mexico to walk right through and receive driving directions to the "Trump Golf Course" for immediate employment opportunities: lol
I'm okay with the shut down, not okay with them still collecting taxes.
With tax returns and SNAP now being threatened, the economy will tank ASAP if something isn't done soon. All over the wall the Mexico was going to pay for. Wow.
I find it odd that getting flood insurance for mall construction is considered vital and continues, but getting food for destitute families is not important and stops.
That is insane. I hadn't read that. I live in an area where a good deal of families are dependent upon food stamps to some degree. The food banks here--I volunteer at one, and there are many thankfully--would be over run with just one month of no SNAP. I'd have to be especially vigilant about home security also.
Holy cow Wilderness! "And yes, when our country is so strapped for cash that we can't even come up with a measley 5B to avert collapse of economy and culture..."
Even though I think I understand your point, I don't think that statement helps it.
Now $5 BILLION is "measley[sic]" amount of money? And a fifth of the projected wall will avert economic and cultural collapse?
That sounds like rhetoric worthy of comparison, but I will pass on that opportunity.
by Mike Russo 7 years ago
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by harmony155 7 years ago
For those of you non-Americans, what is your view of the US government shutdown?
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