When Mike Pence gave a speech about Trump's foreign policies in Munich yesterday, he received a deafening silence for his efforts. Unlike Angela Merkle, who earned a standing ovation for her efforts, Pence was clearly perturbed by his cold reception on the world stage.
This was no surprise to those of us who abhor what Trump has done to alienate our allies and join Russia as a threat to world peace. His kowtowing to Putin was an embarrassment we still haven't recovered from. Thoughts?
No, it's not a big surprise that closing the purse strings, rejecting the notions that the US is an endless source of funding and socialism in general would produce silence. Not surprising at all.
Oh, it was all about money then? Were they taking more of your money for the European union? Dang Dan, you do seem to be paying more than anyone else....
Yeah, that's all it's about. Just money.
The constant praising of Russia and constant criticism of our allies had nothing to do with it.
You are correct. Germany doesn't care if we build a wall. It doesn't care if employment goes through the roof and it doesn't care if we ban abortions.
It DOES care when the money dries up and we begin to take notice of unfair trade agreements.
But does Germany care if Trump's in bed with Putin though?
I know that you think everything revolves exclusively around money because that seems to be how you operate, but believe it or not, some world leaders consider the long-term security ramifications of a POTUS who aligns himself with dictators while alienating and undermining our allies.
The look on Pence's face said it all. He represents a con man on the world stage and apparently wasn't aware of it.
Many people on the global stage respect Trump more than Pence and that's saying something.
Really? Why do you say that? I had the impression from many sources that it's the other way around.
From the look of things yesterday, neither Pence or Trump's name appears on any of the foreign leader's birthday lists.
From what I've gathered it's because Trump is direct and open about what he wants whereas Pence seems to be governed by his morals and instead of putting the best interest of the nation in front of all else, which Trump in all honesty thinks he is doing, Pence believes he is enlightened by God and let's his morals and beliefs govern policy/the way he acts.
Trump may not be liked, but he has some level of respect. Pence doesn't have the respect of the people. I say this based on what I read on /r/Europe on reddit. It's not personal opinion. But I prefer Trump to Pence too.
Pence doesn't believe in equality and without equality you cannot have progress. It shouldn't matter to me, but what happens in the US does have global repercussions.
Fair enough. And I recognize as well that because Trump insists on "America First" and does everything he can to promote that, it means, to you, that he is selling out the country to Russia, or N Korea or China or whoever he spoke to last.
I get that.
Way to completely mischaracterize my thoughts on the subject. I have no problem with Trump putting America first, if that is what I thought he was actually doing. How is it putting America first to stand next to Putin and tell the world you believe him over your own intelligence agencies? That is just one very glaring example, but we've been over this ground before. It is clear we disagree about the importance of that move and others.
So, we say "America First", the Germans say "Deutschland Uber Alles"
So while everybody is playing patriot games, how do they advance meaningful dialogue between nations within the international community?
You have to wait until the alpha dog is acknowledged.
I can tell you this, GA, Pence's recent "dog and pony show"was a resounding flop on the international stage.
What irks me the most is that certain conservatives I know blame the cold response Pence received in Munich on the perceived Socialist orientation of Europe rather instead of serious differences between the US and Europe in the approach on foreign policy, for instance in Iran. These right leaning types take their biased attitudes and assume that animosity toward Trump in Europe is to be expected regardless of what he does or fail to do.
Could it be that Trump foreign policy initiatives still suck regardless of the socio-political orientation of our allies?
Anything is possible Cred. Even that it could be all about political posturing instead of agreement or disagreement with what he said.
I haven't seen the speech so I don't know.
It's okay Cred. You can say it was the Right-winger's perspective. I would agree.
Thanks, Lobo, I stand corrected, a little research revealed that the title of that song was banned as a result of the defeat of Germany after WWII. But, too bad, I have to admit the former anthem did have a pleasant melody. I confess, I have not heard the replacement anthem.
But the point remains, if America First is valid, why cannot any other nations seek the same perspective for themselves and their people?
The U.S promotes a posturing attitude that gets us all nowhere.
"America First" is similar in it's message. "Make America Great Again" seems to mean America is not as great now as it was in the past, whatever that suggests.
It got be a code word, Randy, "Great" relative to what or when? You have to get a Rightwinger cryptographic machine to break the code.....
"But the point remains, if America First is valid, why cannot any other nations seek the same perspective for themselves and their people? "
They already are, to our detriment when we do not take the same approach. Why else is the US used as a giant pocketbook to provide for the defense of Europe is but a single example. Another is the constant intellectual theft coming out of China. Unfair and unreasonable tariffs from our closest neighbors comes to mind.
To date we simply open the purse strings, ignore the theft and tolerate the exact same attitude that you say we are now giving out.
The defense is not because America wants to. They are doing it for themselves and are not saints. It's the same way China is building up a lot of the African nations.
Also, look into where all the aid that countries send goes. It goes into building companies in African nations that do not help the poor but help build trade with the country giving aid. There are plenty of documentaries showing this. No country offering funds are doing so to help people. That's a huge misconception.
India is trying to build up Afghanistan in some parts while cooperating with the US for the very same reasons, to have a reliable ally in the area.
America did not want Bangladesh to be freed when the Pak army was raping women just because they thought India was a huge Russian ally, they sent their army to attack India, the UK did so too and they begged China to interfere, this was all when China and India were on the same level. Russia intervened in 1971 and the US and UK were sent back.
Conclusion: No country is out there to help any other without personal gain. If you can prove that they are doing this or did this just to help their allies and because they need their allies in case of war to prevent attacks at home, prove it.
There is no such thing as free money. It's just a defense budget spent on territory that isn't yours but considered yours in case of real emergencies. Not the one you guys have right now.
Does it bother you that Iceland contributes nothing to NATO - that it has no defense of it's own at all? That it simply rides the coattails of the other nations funding the defense of Europe?
No, it doesn't bother me. The US can withdraw from NATO if they want to. That's a political problem and as explained, the US is doing nothing but paying for its own security by being here. If Russia gains, the US is going to end up paying a lot more to try to defend from Russia or rather the bigger threat China.
The US is just buying influence.
This is very similar to people saying a negative trade balance with China is the US paying China certain trillion dollars every year. It's not, it's the fact that the people in the US are paying for products that they want. The US needs NATO, Iceland is a land mass that could pose useful and that is why they are in it. Iceland contributes to America's defense by just being the piece of land that they are.
Europe is not mad at Trump for going out of NATO, that is seen as a shitty move, no doubt. But they are really mad at him because he does not understand trade. Watch this in full please. It may not be your thing and you may hate him for all that I know, but watch it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etkd57lPfPU
He's pretty good at bashing Trump. Not so good ad discerning or addressing the root problem - that our manufacturing has moved overseas because of the greed of American consumers. This leaves us without jobs, but still with people that must be supported on an ever falling job market.
You don't fix that by ignoring it, and you don't fix it be agreeing to import everything you need. You fix it by forcing companies (through economic means) to produce with American labor as opposed to foreign labor. Pretending that it isn't a problem and that we can continue the practice indefinitely doesn't help.
I have to give it to you, Wilderness, this is a spot on comment. I distrust Trump, implicitly, but he has a point about deadbeats as part of the NATO alliance. As I observed from several articles, the requests to European allies about "ponying up" has been going on for some time now.
Trump,is bringing down the hammer and it may be appropriate. But the alliance is more than about dollars and cents. There are intangible advantages the U.S receives through the alliance that has nothing to do with European defense, perhaps we need to consider these before Trump throws the baby out with the bath Water?
From a CNN article, it is clear that Germany, has well over 100 American installations, many which the U.S uses for military operations in the Middle East that have nothing to do with Germany or defense of Europe. Which of the other NATO Members allows the use of its facilities on its soil to involve themselves in foreign conflicts?
Also, there were many nationals from member nations that assisted America in Afghanistan and Pakistan, costing them their lives when the initiative against the Taliban was an American military issue, so why should Europe involve itself?
So, if we leave NATO, I would be pleased in the cuts to the defense budget, but just how much more expensive would the logistics of relocating our troops to the Middle and Near East become, without all the military outposts made available from European allies?
So, all of this, when we just bitch, needs to be considered as part of the big picture. Just who stands to lose the most?
Exactly, this is also what I pointed out earlier, that Iceland provides their land and air space if necessary which is worth a lot more than some green bills. You've said it very intelligently.
They do indeed. Air space which costs them nothing, and land which costs them very little and produces lots of that green bills. How about using at least those green bills to provide something for the common defense?
One of the interesting points that I came across is that Europe taxes too much to raise them, and spends it on giving money away. Then they tell the US to pay for their security needs and, oh yes, we don't give enough money away - we need to increase our charity so we can be like them.
Who will pay the costs then? Russia?
They don't need it. The only reason for them to get into a war is the US. No country in its right mind is going to depend on another for its defense. They know they are in no threat.
Also, why are some Americans so adept at other nations paying for their army and their wars? The US benefits by having their troops in Europe, they would have to pay more had the troops been back home: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-fr … n-sharing/
Why should the people in Europe pay to free Iran when they do not want to be free? No Iranian I have met looks forward to American intervention by forcing them to struggle to put bread on their table due to their currency falling. This is the reason set forth by your vice President at the Munich security conference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o8HnAoNDjE
This is what an anonymous US marine says (even if it's not a marine, it's true): I am an American..we kill women, babies, and children in third world countries by putting sanctions on them ..it's inhumane..
Also, you did not get back to me about the time the US came at India when India was freeing Bangladesh from the many rapes by the Pakistani army. The only time the US seeks freedom is when it is in the best interest of their own nation.
This is a response on that YouTube video linked above that you should read, because this is a huge part of paying for NATO and the EU pays more for NATO than the US because of this response below, the first link in this comment and the fact that their armies buy weapons mainly if not only from the US:
** START QUOTE **
EU should just say no problem, from now on just sign that any war refugees you create that you will take, we got enough of the refugees mess you are creating in our neighbors walking swimming in to our country & tell them didn't you say America first so now it is EU first, show us promise that you will take all those Iranian refugees later you want to create.
USA acts as if they care about EU , they attack all these countries close to Europe and they refuse them as refugees. After every USA war these poor fleeing refugees will walk swim towards EU to seek asylum, as those countries before them did. So Europeans should now say, oke USA no worries you boycott attack don't forget to take their refugees asylum seekers with you. Sign up that you will take all those war's refugees asylums seekers you create. But to attack those countries and refuse them entry and mock Europeans for taking refugees that they the USA created is not right. Trump constantly mocked Europe Germany and Sweden for having too many immigrants his country created mostly.
** END QUOTE **
If you say this was not Trumps doing (the cause of the war), it still stands that Europe has to deal with a lot of the refugees and the crisis that the US begins or plays a major role in.
If the US was the leader of the free world as they claim to be, where is Saudi Arabias freedom? Iranians have a lot more freedom than the Saudis. Oh wait. It is not in Americas best interest to give freedom to the nation that is the largest customer of weapons they produce: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/saudi-arab … s-weapons/ and https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/22/midd … index.html
I agree. There is certainly more to it than simple money. But consider; if we have 100 installations in Germany, how much money will Germany lose if we pull out and stop the flow of cash into their country? Having a US base in your borders is most definitely a cash cow!
But there is also more to "negotiations" (even threats) than ever meets the eye, too. If we shut down just a few bases here and there will European purse string suddenly come open?
Perhaps, but did you know that we have nuclear stockpiles in Turkey, Germany, The Netherlands, and Belgium and Italy.
If it were me, I would be more conserved about my sovereignty and neutrality over an economic benefit. I can't say that all the members of the European Union consider U.S. facilities as a cash cow.
Germany deserves the Nobel Peace Prize for tolerating so many Americans and so many of their facilities on their soil for so long. I have been to Germany and the average GI was as provincial as they come, with few expressing any interest in the language or customs.
To further expand on my OP, Angela Merkel received a loud ovation for her speech and so did Joe Biden when he stated the US would be back supporting our allies in the near future.
Good ole Uncle Joe!
Sounds exactly what I said: it's all about the money. As soon as they were told the purse strings would open once more, providing what the EU doesn't want to pay for themselves, the applause erupts.
Free money has a way of accomplishing that, doesn't it?
I couldn't tell you, Dan. Never got none! :p Worked hard most of my life and was pleased to help those who never got the same breaks as I.
And Germany has their largest auto plant in South Carolina hiring many folks as well. Yep, It's all about the money...
FAKE Christian "Squinty" Mike Pence must be in very deep legal trouble with the criminal investigation veering into Bozo Trump's transition team as it should: He lies way too much to be innocent, he must know much about the crimes and maybe that's one reason WHY you could almost hear a paper airplane made out of a leftover worthless Trump University Diploma flying through the room in Munich when he opened his sin filled mouth: Just like here in the USA, very few legitimate world leaders can stomach the dimwitted 72 year old, especially when he's WEAKENING our NATO allies:
Did you see the typical blank dumbfounded look on Ivanika's face when Angela Merkel had to school her on the fact that many BMW's are made in the USA ?? Don't be surprised if they PULL Out of the crumbling USA:
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