How do we determine the number of citizens in our country?

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   jackclee lmposted 5 years ago

   If we are not allowed to ask this question according to the distinguished Supreme Court, how else can we get an e stimate?
   The answer is very simple. We have a tremendous database both in our public agencies and in private or public traded companies. 
   In fact, I am willing to bet, Google and Facebook and Amazon already have the data somewhere within their company.
   The country has the IRS, INS, and department of Labor and social security...and many other databases which tracks everything else...
   Companies like IBM which makes a living out of Big Data...is idea to consolidate some of this data, cross reference, and get at a pretty good estimate of who is a citizen. Who is a legal immigrant and who is undocumented or illegal?
   It is just not that hard, in our modern technological and network connected world.
   
   It is alway my contention, that some powerful people in our government, do not want to know the answer. For various reasons, they want to kick the can down the road with regard to solving our border crisis...until Trump. He is one of the few that actually wants to do something about it.
   It is a travesty for our own courts to stop him from doing his job.

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      Randy Godwinposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Yes indeed, Trump should simply thumb his nose at any law he doesn't like. You tell 'em, Jack! 

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      Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

      I agree that it is not rocket science, however let's ask why Trump has so many undocumented people in his employ?
      
      You think that if you were going to make this issue a theme of your campaign and administration that you would make sure in advance that neither your nor your organization were guilty of violation. But, not Trump, as he considered himself above the law, never setting the example that would be too much to expect.
      
      I agree that the technology exists to control this problem if the powers that be actually want to control it.
      
      It is not going to be solved by continuing to pour salt on this country's wounds, racism and xenophobia.
      
      It is nothing to do with people climbing over border fences, it has to do with people that remain after their visas have expired. It has to do with companies knowingly hiring them to exploit their labor to their benefit.
      
      It has to do with the relative slap on the wrist that violators, employers get when they are caught.
      
      Rightwingers are so concerned about these non-citizens participating in the franchise and electing Democrats. It is all more of the same red herring.
      
      Everybody has a social security card or have been assigned one, when someone applies for a job require that that number be provided and ask the candidate for their date and place of birth to be certain that the number and individual match. There should be a data base that can provide this information. I can get as much from death records, so we cannot do that for living people? No verifiable SSAN, no job. No work, no incentive to climb fences. How do you exist when you cannot sustain yourself and the employer wouldn't dare hire you on the pain of death, or considerable hell to pay.
      
      
      You can issue ID for temporary visitors and residents that are allowed in the country but it does not authorize them to vote. How hard is that? The banking industry has got these safeguards down so they don't lose a penny.

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      1. 95

         wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

         Deleted
         1. 59

            Randy Godwinposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            You really don't remember, do you?
            
            Here's one link of many:
            
            https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 … nnsylvani/

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               Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

               Thanks, Randy, the article is spot on..

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         wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

         Putting the question on the census is not about finding individual aliens.  It is primarily about using only citizens to determine congressional and electoral representation - counting foreign citizens and assigning congress seats to them is stupid in the extreme.  Unless you're a liberal, anyway!

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            Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Wilderness,
            
            Re: The Washington Times article
            
            What about the "proof" you have been insisting on or do you consider mainstream journalism more "fake news" as it is a convenient excuse to be in denial of the facts that stare you in the face?

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               wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

               First, I can't read it without subscribing.  Second, what is in there that has anything to do with a census asking about citizenship?

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                  Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  No, this is in reference to Trump hiring the undocumented as employees, it does not speak of the "Citizenship" question.

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                     wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                     Oh.  Still can't read it, though; did it give total employment numbers as well as the number of illegals working for Trump?
                     
                     Or we talking about 3 out of 10,000?

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                        Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                        Sorry that you can't access the link Randy provided.
                        
                        The numbers are more than incidental why else woul he resist the use o E-verify within his operations for so long?
                        
                        Odd, that the content of the article pretty much substantiate what I suspected was behind all of this from the beginning.
                        
                        http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/ … ented.html

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                        1. 95

                           wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                           "The numbers are more than incidental"...but you don't know what they are.  I'm sorry, Cred, but I don't believe you have any idea whether they are "more than incidental" or not.  If you did you could produce the numbers.
                           
                           Why not use E-Verify?  Because it is not a finished system and doesn't work worth a d***.  It is also not required and no one else uses it, either.
                           
                           It isn't odd at all: anything that demonizes Trump, true or false, will substantiate what you suspected.  Whether he had a hand in the hiring or not, whether the policy is to hire illegals or not, whether he had an inkling it was going on or not it proves Trump is evil...if that is the opinion needing support.
                           
                           But I give you kudos and high marks for understanding and agreeing with Trump's call to ask about citizenship on the census.  I have an inkling how hard it was to do.

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            Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

            The Supreme Court seems to have a problem with Trump's intent for this move, and as I don't trust Trump, so do I.

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               wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

               As I recall the SCOTUS comment it had to do with shifting the vote power.  Which is exactly what I said: are you of the opinion that the number of foreign citizens should dictate either congressional makeup OR the number of electors?  If so, why?

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                  Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  I am not going to deny that U.S. citizens only should should control the makeup of Congress. There are no "foreign citizens", if you are a citizen, you are by definition, not foreign. I just hope that the conservatives (GOP) can remember that.

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                     wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                     By "foreign citizen" I meant "citizens of a foreign country".  Not foreigners that are American citizens; that could be interpreted as meaning naturalized immigrants and they should obviously be counted as citizens of America.
                     
                     I guess there are some people of dual citizenship; they, too, are American citizens and should be counted as such.

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      3. 76

         jackclee lmposted 5 years agoin reply to this

         Why do you think this is an issue for conservatives? Why is it not important for liberal democrats?
         If you can answer that truthfully and avoid the political wrangling...perhaps we can get some where.
         It was not an issue in 2000 when this question about citizenship last appeared. It was during the 2010 census in hat it was removed. Now we are told we cannot ask...what is going on here?

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            Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

            It is an issue for us all, Jack.
            
            I have made suggestions that I as a liberal don't have problems with for solutions. I don't like the way the issue is being approached, this entire hornets nest has been stirred up under the Trump regime.

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               jackclee lmposted 5 years agoin reply to this

               He did not stir it up. It became an issue because they just don’t want anything Trump...wants. They voted for the wall years ago, but when Trump wants to build the wall, the congress reneg.
               
               The same is going on with the citizen question on the census. It was in previous census without fanfare...
               Can you explain that?

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                  Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  I can't explain it. In this circumstance, I stand corrected, this questions has been asked before over past census'. I see no reason to politicize such a question today as it has been used without incident in the past.
                  
                  On this point I concede, but only this time. You have made your point well.

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