I came across this story today. It is about a US citizen deciding to immigrate to Mexico permanently...her story is here -
Its funny, 5-10 years ago, before we made our move out of NY, it seemed every other discussion I had with people 40 & above was about moving out of NY, they were waiting for their kids to finish school, or until retirement came... but taxes and other costs were pushing them to get out.
Now, we are doing much better in FL than we could have ever managed in NY, what we are saving yearly in taxes alone (Income tax, property and school tax) is twenty thousand a year. That the weather is far better is an added perk.
But conversations now between myself and other 45 -to- 65 year old men revolves increasingly on what country we will be moving to, when and how.
We are all at various stages in our lives, some of us still have kids at home, some are divorced and the kids are grown and living on their own, but the financial benefits of moving out of the country, combined with wanting to get away from what America is becoming... 'No Country for Old Men' ... well these conversations and plans are just as serious as those when I was talking to so many others about moving out of NY. Some are already in the process of making the move, though the logistics of it require more time and effort than moving from one state to another.
The benefits for 'old men' to leave this country far outweigh the benefits of staying. For those experienced in traveling to other countries, you probably know this all too well.
I have just the opposite view. I am also retired and living in NY suburb. I do pay high property taxes and looking to downsize. I have bought a coop in Westchester which is much lower in taxes and fees.
My kids are in the NYC area and one daughter in Southern California.
I love this country and what it has provided for me and my family.
I travel extensively for work and now I travel for pleasure all over the world. I have yet to find a country better than what we have here...in terms of freedom, liberty, living standards, convenience, and mobility of getting around...
We also have very generous services provided by our towns, city and state...
Our mail gets delivered, Amazon make sure our packages arrive within 2 days...our computer network is working and getting faster all the time. We don’t have censorship like they do in Communist China. You know google and youtube is blocked in China?
The one down side I see in our country today is the biased media. They spew lies and fake news all day long and drive a wedge between our two parties system. They create tension among groups and balkanize our country by race, gender, religion and political affiliation.
Well I'll give you China, and certainly there are other countries that are worse off... like most of Africa.
It depends on what you want in your life. How you want to live it, and your finances/income. 100k won't get you anywhere in NY, but you can live like a king in other parts of the world with 100k.
Having spent a considerable amount of time elsewhere, I love being free from American politics and obsession with material wealth and social media, most nations I would move to have internet as good if not better than what we have, not that it is needed for a good life. Technology in general doesn't make for a better life.
Socializing with others is far more relaxed and open in many places, and the people are far more interacting and not caught up in the 'rat race' like almost all Americans are.
It depends on perspective... if you are coming from China, then America may be a dream come true, but if you are an American 50 years or older, this country is becoming unrecognizable and far less free than the America you remember from the 70s and 80s.
As I said... 'No Country for Old Men' and many that I talk to recognize this.
"It depends on perspective... if you are coming from China, then America may be a dream come true, but if you are an American 50 years or older, this country is becoming unrecognizable and far less free than the America you remember from the 70s and 80s."
I meet the demographic description. Again, that depends on your point of view.
Erm, new? You do know there are millions of US citizens living abroad, right? In Mexico alone there are more than a million.
*Btw, that's an interesting article.
This story has several elements...
1. Is Mexico really that cheap and desirable?
2. If so, why not encourage more retiree to move there? A social security income would be more than the $1000 per month needed.
3. Why not make this an official exchange program? For every US citizen willing to relocate to Mexico, we can exchange for a Mexican will to come here to work, and he would be given legal status.
4. Let’s adopt the same immigration policy Mexico uses for their system. Any system is better than what we have today with the INS.
5. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence...
I am curious, if it was only a cost issue, why not find a place in the southern US like Florida or Louisiana where cost of living is very low, climate is warm, and they speak English, and poverty is less...?
Jack, I know many people who have moved to Costa Rica. I've been there and it is very nice. But, it also has some very dangerous areas. A few have moved back.
It is not for me, there are safety and amenities concerns that I miss from the USA, as I lived in Panama for 5 months.
Panama is not close to the safest of harbors to sail to.
Panama in fact may have some of the serious issues it does because of its long term association with America, and how it was an unofficial colony for many years when the Panama Canal was a more prominent part of international trade routes.
There are so many places one can go to, where America hasn't woven itself into the country's history, politics, and society... Panama is not such a place.
Name One other country that is equal or better than America...in terms of living standard and freedom and prosperity convenience and mobility...
If you find one, let me know.
I don’t think you can.
Despite all our problems and political differences, we are much better off than other nations. There are some democracies where the parties throw punches in the congress hall to win an argument.
Thank God that has not happened here.
If we continue to vote the likes of AOC or the squad, this may happen down the road...
Share with us, Ken, examples that would be good options for the expat?
To each their own Credence, here are countries I would consider to live in for a variety of reasons if money and responsibilities were not an issue:
Philippines (certain islands)
To be honest, I would probably spend the rest of my life traveling these nations, never returning to America if that were to ever become economically feasible.
The last thing I plan on doing is wasting my latter years sitting around in America being exposed to the endless foolishness that now consumes it. Too many places to see, mysteries to explore and different cultures to sample.
What a romantic you are, Ken. Are you sure you're a Trump fan?
I was thinking the same thing, Randy. So eloquent and understandable. Seems like there's preference for the rural over the urban?
Do you also see that preference typically being a Blue or Red indication?
Cities are generally blue. Rural is generally red.
Yep, that was the point, but the inferred question was why?
The obvious answer is a difference in perspectives but is that perception as simple as a 'Blue' acceptance of others, or a Red xenophobia?
Hold on a minute, that isn't intended as partisan as it sounds. A city dweller, (a Blue), is more reliant on city services, which, must include a natural reliance on government. Which also encompasses a feeling of we are all in this together.
A rural dweller will not have that same degree of "city services" so must rely on more of a self-reliance perspective to achieve the same degree of security. Which counters the "we are all in this together" feeling with an 'if I don't do it myself it won't get done' perspective. Again, a bottomline of self-reliance vs. government reliance.
So, the next question is what benefits a citizen more; self-reliance or reliance on government?
The answer is always self reliance preferable to government. Dependence leads to despair.
Is that self-reliance also about freedom, keeping what you earn, independance?
Is reliance on government also about not understanding the value of what you earn, a lack of independence?
How does a college student who has never worked (for income) a day in their life reach the age of 25 and not be reliant?
How does a person who was learning how to make money at age twelve, and buys his first home or starts his first business before the age of 25 not be self-sufficient?
The Republican Party has increasingly become the party of individualism and of "I built that", of worker's and those that earn what they get.
Cities, on the other hand, are about shared commons. If you live in a city and you think government and other people should stay out of your life, how will you get to work in the morning? Who will collect the trash? Who police your neighborhood? Who will fix the sewer?
America is becoming a country of big cities, and along with that all the restrictions and taxations that come with it... affecting even those that live well beyond the city's limits.
NY is one such example, the taxation on those living in Upstate NY is horrendous, they pay the freight for a city that many of them may never visit.
They have gone above and beyond trying to make owning guns illegal in NY, makes sense if you are living in NYC... not so much if you are living outside of Buffalo and prefer to hunt and stock your freezers with Venison and Duck meat; and depend on your own abilities to protect your home and family as the nearest police station is a half hour away when there is no snow blocking the roads.
Big City doesn't belong out in the Country.
GA, I think you have put your finger on why I and other would be Ex-Pats are now seriously considering an exodus. When the big city taxes and politics follow you to remote rural areas, what other options are there?
I don't know any liberals who like government interference in their lives. Right and left aren't really arguing about how much money government spends, but about who they spend it on. Do we use our government to benefit the wealthy or do we use it to benefit the poor? It's obviously not as simple as that and I don't believe that the government should be giving money away to people who don't put any effort into being productive citizens, but that seems to be what things boil down to.
That must have been directed at someone else Crankalicious. Those points; interference and money spent, weren't part of my comment.
It's more or less a response to the subtext of your comment.
When you talk about urban reliance on government services and rural self-reliance - that all devolves into how we use government funds in a political argument (also, I might add that the blue/red question was a touch condescending)
I can see if I lived in the country, I might grow to resent how my tax dollars were used. I wouldn't get the same kind of service - police, fire department; etc.
That said, I would be interested to see a study of just how our tax dollars come back to us because it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see those with a rural lifestyle actually receiving a disproportionate benefit from government spending.
But I'm willing to admit it's more likely somebody in a city receives more government services (though is that federal or state money or local taxes?). That by itself may lead to the conclusion that government serves an important role in our lives that should be expanded (though again, I don't know any liberals that believe government should be expanded - but we're all successful, upper-middle class whites who don't rely on those services)
Are you kidding...
That is what the whole debate is about. Progressive liberals wants more government programs so they can control more and more of what the people can and can’t do.
Conservatives believes in the Constitution of limited government.
We also believe many programs can be better run at the local and private level. Hence low taxes vs. high taxes...
Who can best spend the money for the most good.
"... it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see those with a rural lifestyle actually receiving a disproportionate benefit from government spending."
That would, I think, depend on the definition of "rural". It would not surprise me at all to find that people in small towns - say, 10,000 or less - receive more welfare of one kind or another, per person, that city dwellers do. One exception could well be housing subsidies, though.
But people that are truly rural - farmers, the wealthy living out of town, hermits (yes, there are some left)? While farmers typically get farm subsidies, I don't think they subsist on food stamps, section 8 housing, WIC, etc. They are not your normal welfare recipient.
Just an impression, though, and not anything I could back up with stats.
I think we are talking about different things Crankalicious. I can now see the direction you have taken with your response, but none of it was to the topical level of Blue vs. Red, city-dweller vs. rural inhabitant that I was speaking of.
I didn't intend any "sub-text" inferences and certainly not a condescending one.
When I made the "reliance" comparison it was about the reality of the situations and had nothing to do with government intrusion, or where tax monies are spent.
I think the question I was pondering is a different one from the aspects you are addressing.
I think the comparison is simplicity itself. City-dwellers don't have a place to dispose of their garbage, (except roadside dumping of course), that doesn't involve reliance on a government-provided service. They can't drill their own water wells, so they have to rely on another government-provided service, etc. etc.
That is the aspect of government reliance I was speaking to. It wasn't a criticism of the cost of providing those services.
City dwellers also don't have the luxury of acres of land, (or even a grassy yard), between them and their neighbors, so their reality demands that they co-exist in a "we're all in this together" attitude. (more or less of course)
Those were the type of real-life realities that I was speaking of as possibly being a reason most city folks vote Democrat.
And the converse of all that is why I think rural Americans tend to generally be more self-reliant, (and resistant to costs of "intrusive" government services*), and conservative-minded and generally vote Republican.
* an example of that might be the rural household that has it's own well water and septic system, and takes care of their own garbage disposal - then they get annexed into the city limits of a nearby town and soon have to, (no choice, they have to), hook up to city water and sewer services - and pay for the privilege of getting a service they didn't need.
Those were my only points. The right or wrong, true or not aspects, such as your government intrusion and costs points are a different matter altogether. I do think your points about city dwellers acceptance of those aspects are right, but still, that wasn't my point.
No, sorry, that's actually not what the debate is about, Jack. In your mind, maybe.
The debate is actually about how to spend the giant pool of money because both parties just spend it. Conservatives just lie more about how they think they're the party of self-control. In the end, conservatives have been running up the deficit just as much as liberals.
Conservatives believe in limited government until gay people want to get married and raped women want to get abortions and people want legal weed. Then, they want freedoms taken away. Nice try.
Wilderness, I don't know why when we talk about federal aid, you go directly to welfare because that's not what I was thinking. I was thinking more infrastructure - like maintenance on a paved road, for instance, or a sewer line.
Medicare/Medicaid though is definitely a lot of the federal budget.
I'm really thinking services - highway, police, fire department, schools - but perhaps those are maintained more with local tax revenue. I know there are some rural districts in my state that are having a hard time with these services.
In general, I think if people were more aware of what their tax dollars actually support, we'd be in a better position to vote and discuss what we want government to do and not do.
Despite arguments to the contrary, I actually think most liberals and conservatives agree that using federal tax dollars to support people in the country illegally is not something we want.
My apologies; don't know why, or where, I got that. Probably thinking of another thread.
Certainly rural people use more in the way of roads, but from there it declines rapidly (and we ALL use their roads - how else do we get their grain to our table?). There IS no water or sewer in rural areas (again, depending on what you call "rural"), and even electricity is paid for, dearly, by the rural resident. Most rural areas have very limited police and any fire dept. is volunteer. I've even seen reports of some rural fire departments refusing to put your house fire out if you haven't paid your dues to them.
On the other hand city dwellers have buses and subways, and the cost of a new subway can be enormous. Plus, of course, they all have to be subsidized from tax payer money just to operate. Cities often have museums and other attractions as well, that are found in rural areas only when privately operated. Some cities are supply "free" internet, I hear, and of course any cable TV usually uses infrastructure already in place for power/phones.
But yes - if people were more aware of where the money went they'd be happier. Very often they choose one thing they don't use and get bent out of shape over what is, in the big picture, a tiny fraction of the budget. A skateboard park, for instance, that is used only by children. Or the waterpark area in my area that only kayakers and surfers can use.
Don't know that I can agree that liberals don't want federal tax dollars to support illegal aliens, though - a quick look at "free" health care for them comes to mind and tens of thousands get welfare of one sort or another, even when illegal. It costs to supply even interpreters in the courtroom, and those are just the tip of the iceberg. We hire special ESL teachers for the kids and provide free lunches (and breakfasts and sometimes dinners). Some states are considering them for in-state (subsidized) college tuition. The list just goes on and on, and liberals in general, I believe, support all those programs.
I agree with you up to a point. Traveling and exploring the world is what we all hope for in our retirement.
That is the bucket list...
However, there is no country I would rather be than here in the USA.
With all the problems and strife we are dealing with, there are small compared to what is going on in some of the rest of the world like Hong Kong right now, or London and Paris and Berlin and Jerusalem...
We Americans have a myopic view.
The grass seems always greener on the other side of the fence.
If tomorrow, you can wave a magic wand, and eliminate all immigration laws of every nation...guess where most of the people in this world would be or want to be and want to move or live and work...?
This is not a trick question. Given the exact same conditions, same government, same economy, same natural resources, same everything just as they exist today, with the ine exception of no more immigration restrictions.
Indeed, and none of those places of strife you mention are on my list. I've been on the other side of the fence, to more than one of those countries on my list... I have no doubts about the grass at all.
Small countries/islands with populations not caught up in the rat race, where even their 'big cities' are slow paced compared to even a small American one.
You've heard of 'fly over states'... well, I like 'fly over nations or islands'.
I'm not interested in Hong Kong, London, Paris, Berlin, etc. never have been, and never will be. Same can be said for NY, CA, Chicago, etc.
Then you are missing a whole new world. I live in the suburb of NYC. I go there once a week by car. I have half an acre of grass and flower and trees and vegetables...in the summer.
It is really a slice of heaven...
In NYC, I get to see and do things that are not available most parts of the world. It is the commerce capital of the world. Entertainment...and culture and museums...
There are a flavor of almost all parts of the world in terms of cuisine...talk about diversity...
Believe it or not, New Yorkers are some of the best people in the world.
I lived in NY for ten years, Westchester County and Dutchess County, I spent more time in NYC than I wanted, there is nothing in NYC that I can't find elsewhere, better, cheaper, and more enjoyable.
Really? Can you go to a Broadway show? Can you go to the Frick Museum? Can you visit the Statue of Liberty? Can you get the best Chinese food this side of the Atlantic ocean?
In my own case, I go fencing at one of the top fencing club in the US and the oldest - The Fencers Club, started in 1887.
I volunteer at my alma Mater, CCNY, known as the poor man’s Harvard. Started in 1847.
I also volunteer at the Westchester County Archives...
I am a member of the GPL writers group. Greenburgh Public Library.
I have access to three major airports...when I travel...
I am within one hour driving distance to three states, NY, NJ and Connecticut...
To each his own...
Absolutely to each their own. I have but one airport, but generally walk right up to the ticket counter and TSA takes 10 minutes. No long walks down the concourse, either.
But far more importantly is that in 30 minutes I can be out of the city into the national forest - hiking, fishing and hunting without a crowd. There are probably 30 state and national campgrounds within an hours drive and I don't know how many commercial campgrounds. A snow ski area (a good one) within 30 minutes and 3 more within 2 hours. Three states within an hours drive - Idaho, Nevada and Oregon. A half dozen national parks within a days drive - some spectacular and busy, some awesome and quiet . Some of the best white water rafting in the world is only a hour away. Three large lakes, mostly undeveloped, within a couple hours or less - one just minutes outside the city.
I've been to NYC - nothing there of interest. I want a quiet fishing hole, undisturbed by anyone else. I want the wild white water rafts. I was an avid snow skier, and lift lines here are typically 5-10 minutes. I want to camp without driving for hours and without an RV shoved up 3' away from me with its outside TV blaring and dog barking. While I can enjoy a pool, mini golf, pickle ball and other amenities in a camp ground I prefer nothing but open spaces and perhaps water and electricity. Or not.
It takes all kinds to make up this nation. I am NOT a city boy.
I have three theatres within 45 minutes of where I live, Cocoa Village, Titusville, Melbourne... much more enjoyable when you can go to the theatre, and a top notch dinner for two and still spend under $100.
I saw two shows on Broadway in ten years, because it was such a task to get there, I really had little interest in it. I have seen at least a dozen shows in the four years we have been in Florida, much more enjoyable atmosphere, a much easier trip and affordable good seats.
Why would I want to do that more than once in a lifetime?
Can you go to the Kennedy Space Center?
Can you go to Universal Studios?
Can you go to Disney World?
Can you go to the beach in November and enjoy the water?
In my opinion, I can get the best Indian, Mexican, Fish, Chinese right here, and a lot more affordable than NY.
And IMO the state I am living in offers more to do, and more of interest than all three of them and NY combined.
I am glad someone enjoys NY, its not me, there is literally nothing I had to sacrifice to leave there that isn't here.
I didn't know this had become about which state is better, but, NY has nothing that I can't find elsewhere... nothing of relevance to lifestyle, comfort, or wellbeing.
You know what Florida also has that NYC doesn't have?
Alligators in swimming pools!
Actually, I visit all the time, though I don't know how you stand the summers. Too hot. We love Universal!
They body acclimates to the region given time.
That brings up another thing I couldn't stand about NY, the massive swings in temperature. One day its 40 degrees, the next its 90, then its back to 65 and then into the 90s again, all in one week. Nor do I like being buried in 3 feet of snow, in one snowstorm, nor do I like -30 degree weather.
Florida's temp changes are much more moderate.... it hasn't gotten to freezing temps here in the 4 years I've lived here, and I don't recall it going much over 100 either... it usually ranges between 60 and 90 throughout the year here along the coast.
Sure, Ken, but what about the alligators in your swimming pools?
We go to Orlando all the time. And boy, did I like the coast when I was there - a beach on the gulf. It was hot only a block in, but if you lived close to the ocean, things cooled off.
I don't know if I'm carrying this too far, but if you're wealthy and white, you don't really have to live among the Riff-raff. It's a nice choice to have.
?????? Are you implying that only white people with money have that choice?
That sums up the problematic mindset of today's progressive, liberal, left - or however you want to label it.
You want to inject race into that statement.
Race has nothing to do with it.
Its about wealth.
If you are wealthy, you can go where you want, and live how you want... and to think otherwise is to not understand today's realities.
That's not to say there isn't racism, or racist people... but if you have access to millions of dollars, you will be going where you want, doing what you want, and your race won't limit it.
I don't know what Progressives are going to complain about in ten years, or who they are going to target (probably men, that seems to be the newest trend, it trumps race, all men are guilty of toxic masculinity) ... when whites are officially the minority, as they already are in states like CA, exactly how are they going to be blamed for things, when they are the minority.
Sort of. Black people with money (and other minorities) have some limitations, but generally have most of the same choices and don't have to live among the riff-raff either.
However, I used to work at a very exclusive country club. No black people allowed. And I had a friend who was the first black member at another very exclusive country club.
Just saying there are a few minor limitations, but it doesn't only apply to white people. It's just easier if you're white.
Even wealth has its limits when you are non-white. However, generally wealth trumps race. Like I said, there are country clubs still that don't allow black people. So money can't buy everything. But I agree it's generally irrelevant when it comes to money, particularly where lawyers are concerned.
And it's true, race and social standing are often conflated. People apply a race-based answer when socioeconomics is the answer. Poor whites and poor blacks often have the same problems, even though they tend to blame each other.
That's a load of hot-mess.
There are too many places that I could not get into, that Tiger Woods or Denzel Washington or Dak Prescott, etc. etc. could.
It's not about race in this world, its about wealth. If you have the wealth, you can go anywhere and do anything. Having a pale face isn't worth diddly, in fact, in our current times, and in the future, its just as likely to be a liability.
It is funny how people are...I know New Yorkers who would never leave the city. Some who have left after retirement, regretted that decision.
Some moved away and never looked back.
To each his own.
It is a fact that immigrants flock to NYC in record numbers and it is also one of the tourist destination of the world.
NYC has something for everyone. Diversity...
What does those immigrants see that American born citizens are missing?
Ken, most of the countries that you list have a significant socialist element as part of their societies relative to the United States. What would be a main theme of the nations that you selected as to why they would attract you?
Those racist Republicans decided to send 4.6 billion dollars in relief efforts to the southern border. Not a single Democrat presidential hopeful cared.
Sounds like a waste of tax payer money to me.
https://freebeacon.com/politics/all-202 … KlIvPr4G0c
So strange for a self proclaimed independent voter like you to post a far right website link...Not!
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