The Inevitability of the Impeachment Process

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   Live to Learnposted 4 years ago

   We have known, since before Trump was sworn in, we would and up here. The left has never hidden their agenda.
   
   This CNN opinion piece, I hope, nails down where we are and why.
   
   https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co … index.html
   
   If Trump is winning. If he has successfully accomplished what I had hoped he would this is a very merry Christmas.

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      Randy Godwinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Trump isn't winning, except in his criminal endeavors. But some admire such.

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         Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         Lol. Nobody of consequence believes such drivel.

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            PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            You consider constitutional scholars to be "nobody of consequence"? What about judges? Yet, a reality TV star rates high in your estimation. Strange what some people value.

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               Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

               :rolleye: Again, you appear partisan, unable to present an individual original thought. Do you ever change course?

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                  PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Your response has nothing to do with my comment.
                  
                  Do you consider constitutional scholars and judges, for example, to be "nobody of consequence" ?

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                     Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                     PP. If there wasn't room for interpretation we wouldn't have constitutional scholars. We wouldn't need them. I don't look at the 4 who presented their opinions as being anything more than brought in by both sides to lend some credibility to their stands.  However, when a clear bias is identified, opinions become suspect.
                     
                     My statement was in line with commenting on the jury of public opinion. It was not meant to state that any person testifying before Congress is of no consequence. If that was unclear, please accept this clarification.

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                        PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                        Clarification accepted.

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            Randy Godwinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            The list of over 1000 prosecutors who signed the letter stating he broke his oath of office are of consequence. What's your field of legal knowledge?

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               Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

               What I told pp applies to this also. Please read.

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      Don Wposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      I think you (or at least the author of the article you link to) are right, most of us could have predicted Trump's impeachment, but the reasons cited are wrong in my view. The prediction was possible because of who Trump is and everything he said and did during the election.
      
      It's obvious he is a compulsive liar (he literally can't seem to help himself). It's obvious he has no respect for the rule of law (unless it's favorable to him). It's obvious he has no respect for the Constitution. It's obvious he has no respect for honorable people serving in government (unless they pledge allegiance to him). It's obvious he has no idea what "abusing the authority of the office of the president of the United States" really means, let alone what it looks like in practice. It's obvious he has severe personality flaws related to his ego which make him (and therefore the country) vulnerable to the crudest manipulation.
      
      All of this was as obvious then, as it is now. How could any sensible person not predict Trump would be impeached? The only doubt was would Pelosi would do it, or would she make the political calculation not to. We now know the answer to that.
      
      But I think the big flaw in the article you link to is the assumption that supporting Trump is a symbolic middle finger to the "global elite". I think it's more a symbolic capitulation of the working and middle classes to the corporate donor class, of which Trump is one. It's a bit like a group of hens voting for a fox to become president of the hen house to protest against the farmer. It's perhaps not the most clever act of protest.

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         Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         I disagree on several levels. Trump is unconventional, ill-spoken and irreverent. I'd certainly agree he has ample personality flaws but so did his opponent in the election. I found his less dangerous than hers. Some is calculated, some not. He certainly is different. I was shocked he got that nomination and shocked he won. But I understand why he won.
         
         I don't see any more lack of respect for anything than I see from seasoned politicians. And, to be honest, even if the acting job Schiff, Nadler and Pelosi are putting on fools you it isn't fooling the majority of the public. Hillary's obvious and oft stated disdain for average Americans and her well documented penchant for ignoring laws she found inconvenient makes me wonder about your other complaints.
         
         I will say I think too many foxes have been running around the hen house for too long. It's like Joe Biden insisting there is nothing to see here, but saying when he's president he will ensure nothing like that can be done by anyone else. I laugh at the ridiculousness. You nod and think that makes sense.
         
         There are plenty of varieties of fox. Trump is just one of them.

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            Ken Burgessposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Many who detest Trump and want him removed will push any narrative.
            
            These same people who support the Democratic Party ignore the fact that it went out of its way to sabotage the elections in 2016 handing the nomination to Clinton, when Bernie was clearly the more popular candidate.
            
            The gross amount of corruption that has been exposed in the past 4 years is monumental, the DNC election process was proven to be a sham, on top of that, we had the debacle where Clinton destroyed 33,000 emails, hard drives, phones, and was ultimately let off the hook.  As she was with issues regarding the Clinton Foundation, Uranium One, and every other crime going all the way back to Whitewater.
            
            And Biden with his 1.5 Billion dollar deal with China, and the 1.8 Billion dollars that disappeared in the Ukraine, to say nothing of his creepy way of groping and fondling women and young girls.
            
            I don't get how these people can be fine with this level of corruption, ignoring how Pelosi made herself hundreds of millions over the years while in Congress... while Americans struggled, lost homes, lost jobs, lost hope.
            
            It is truly stunning to see such adamant support for such criminals... and such hatred for the man who calls the corrupt politicians out for what they are.
            
            Even if some of these Trump haters are hardcore socialists or communists, I don't get how they can support the likes of Clinton or Biden, who will do nothing to advance such agendas.

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               Randy Godwinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

               Ir seems you don't get lot's of things, Ken! No matter, Trump will get you in the end.

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                  Randy Godwinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  And a link to the "100's of millions" you claim Pelosi made would be helpful to your assertion.

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                     Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                     Aww come on Randy. You, the king of unsubstantiated smears on politicians you don't like, wants a link?
                     
                     What's up with that?

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                        Randy Godwinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                        I didn't realize we had a coronation, LTL. Did you get chosen for anything cool as well? 

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               Don Wposted 4 years agoin reply to this

               The idea that Trump is the champion of ordinary working and middle class people is itself a false narrative. He is a plutocrat; a member of the political donor class.
               
               And while I agree there are lots of issues with the current political system (though some of your allegations are closer to conspiracy theories) blowing the system up is not the sensible solution. You don't hire someone to demolish your house, just because you don't like the color of the rug. That house is what offers you protection. Trump is in the process of demolishing your house, at your invitation and is doing so gladly. You are sorely mistaken if you think that's for your benefit. He's doing it for his benefit and the benefit of people like him. This is not new. Plutocrats have been trying to do this for many years. In his biography, Theodore Roosevelt wrote:
               
               "The big reactionaries of the business world and their allies...fought to keep matters absolutely unchanged. These men demanded for themselves an immunity from governmental control which, if granted, would have been as wicked and as foolish as immunity to the barons of the twelfth century. Many of them were evil men. Many others were just as good men as were some of these same barons; but they were as utterly unable as any medieval castle-owner to understand what the public interest really was. There have been aristocracies which have played a great and beneficent part at stages in the growth of mankind; but we had come to the stage where for our people what was needed was a real democracy; and of all forms of tyranny the least attractive and the most vulgar is the tyranny of mere wealth, the tyranny of a plutocracy".
               
               https://www.bartleby.com/55/12.html
               
               Those "big reactionaries of the business world", of which Trump is one, are not on the side of you and me Ken. They're on their own side. I understand your desire for a champion, but  Trump isn't it.

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                  Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  That is a well stated comment, Don, and I agree with it wholeheartedly.

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               Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this

               Ken, but does anything about Biden or Clinton absolve Trump? He has demonstrated more than a passing interest in misogyny. Trump is President, so the focus is going to be placed squarely on his behavior and actions.
               
               How many "poor" congresspersons do you know from either party? So, it is not just the Democrats.
               
               I did not like the Sanders fly over either.
               
               There are many procedural and ethical issues that Trump is current embroiled in, why do you adamantly continue to support his complete innocence?

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                  Ken Burgessposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Misogyny?
                  
                  I'm not in to the PC culture, not into fourth or fifth wave feminism... and to sum up that sentiment, the saying "we have a long way to go" as it refers to this topic my reply would be "you've already gone too far".
                  
                  However, how adults interact with one another is far different than the accusations and stories of Bill Clinton taking flights with under age girls, and Biden's groping of young girls (in public and on camera) and his exuberant telling of how he likes them sitting on his lap, etc.
                  
                  One slip of the tongue or one questionable squeeze is one thing, but Biden has one slip after another, and too many gropes caught on camera, in his fast approaching senility his creepiness is shining through just a bit too clearly.
                  
                  Trump has averted war during his time, despite plenty of MSM support for invading Syria, and invading Iran after the 'attacks' on Saudi.  And the constant talk of war with North Korea.
                  
                  Trump abolished the treaty with Iran, and despite all the claims that it would be the end of the world, that gas prices would soar, the only people it hurt was Iran's leadership, its people are in revolt against it.
                  
                  Six and a half million new jobs since he took office.  Interest rates at all time lows still. You and I and everyone else is still as free as we ever were to express our opinions and do as we want, there is no martial law here... in Hong Kong, in France, in other parts of the world.... but not here.
                  
                  All the terrible things people said Trump would do, he hasn't done.  All the apocalyptic predictions proved false.  At no time have so many Americans had it this good in the previous 25 years.
                  
                  Trump is being impeached because he is exposing and going after the criminals in Congress, and former politicians like Biden, Clinton, and many others.
                  
                  Trump is the Molotov cocktail thrown into D.C. by the Americans who voted for him, the people fed up with the corruption and lies, people fed up with being sold out... Trump is doing what he was elected to do... and almost all of D.C. hates him for it.  As do the Chinese, UN globalists, and many others.
                  
                  Trump is good for Americans... and most of the MSM and lying SoS in Congress are doing everything in their power to convince you otherwise.
                  
                  Trump is a deplorable character, but he is the tool we need to do the job he is doing.  We either move forward with him, or with a better alternative in the likes of Warren, or Yang... an establishment crony like Biden just means we Americans go back to getting bent over and royally F---ed.

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                     The Minstrelposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                     Well said. They are running this sham impeachment because they know they can't win in 2020. I keep asking myself what they will gain from such a stupid strategy. Impeachment support from independents has gone down significantly. Trump is now ahead in battleground states as depicted in recent polling. His approval rating has gone up since Schiff's, Pelosi's, and Nadler's asinine initiative. Their smearing of his character has not worked. It's actually blowing up in their faces. All I can think of is that to not impeach means they lose their base of support and campaign contributions. It's like Picket's last charge at Gettysburg. Attack, attack, attack across one mile of open field so that the union artillery and mass musket fire can decimate you. Attack, attack, attack even though you know you will fail.

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                     Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                     Ken, i missed the significance of the first paragraph of your reply, here
                     
                     The kinds of reports you speak of regarding Clinton and Biden are much of the same reports that I get regarding Trump. Funny, how Obama was not involved in any of this... so, how is Trump any better?
                     
                     Without belaboring the point, we are simply going to disagree about Trump and his "accomplishments".
                     
                     I need someone that can clean out Washington, with he or she not knee deep in the very muck that you are trying to clear away. Not being "deplorable" in of his or herself, setting the example.
                     
                     Trump is more good for some over others. Trump is a Republican in ideology and in practice and I am naturally going resist that.
                     
                     Trump did not have to hide the fact that he was withholding congressional appropriated funds from the Ukraine. Why not simply say in the beginning that you intend to do it and why to both Congress and the media? If the withholding were legitimate, why hide it?
                     
                     This man has a reputation for dishonesty and disrepute going back well into his business career. Why the Birther controversy that he stoked up, how am I going to support a man that stoops so low against my choice at the time, Barack Obama? I am still pi$$ed off about that.
                     
                     
                     
                     Our views regarding what constitutes "globalism" and China getting " out of hand" are different.
                     
                     Like someone said earlier, if you are looking for a savior, Trump is not it.

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                        Ken Burgessposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                        How I understand it, is that Trump and Clinton have been accused of extra-marital affairs and lude conduct.  Which I could care less about, so long as it is with adult women.
                        
                        Clinton and Biden have been accused of sexual relations and improper behavior with children.  And that I have a very big problem with, there is nothing more loathsome and unforgivable as a man that takes advantage of children for his own sexual gratification.
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        I agree, I have no issues with this, as I hope I have made clear in the past.  There are Democrat candidates I would support, or strongly consider supporting after more vetting.
                        
                        
                        
                        I don't believe this narrative, anymore than I believed Trump was a Russian puppet.  Yes certain 'news' agencies are propagating the stories of wrong doing by Trump, but they don't add up when you do some investigative research.
                        
                        Its just more BS to stir anti-Trump sentiment up, while at the same time ignoring any wrongdoing by his opposition, or giving him any credit for the continued economic growth, jobs creation, etc.
                        
                        "Like someone said earlier, if you are looking for a savior, Trump is not it."
                        
                        But he's a step up from Clinton or Biden... you take what you can get.

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            Don Wposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            I think the idea that Trump is merely "ill-spoken and irreverent" is beyond reason. No doubt some of what he says/does falls within the category of the typical political shenanigans we've come to expect from Washington, but Trump's behavior and other issues seem to go many levels beyond that.
            
            I'm not going to rehash the many examples of this here, the list is too long, but I will say I can't recall another president in recent times seemingly unable stop themselves lying, even about the most minor things. I understand why some think there is a cognitive issue there. I can't speak to the accuracy of that as I'm not a doctor, but it certainly has the appearance of being compulsive rather than a choice.
            
            Likewise, president's often try to out-maneuver Congress, or have policies that may push the boundaries of constitutionality. That's par for the course, but the flagrant disregard for the Constitution Trump has shown is beyond anything I have seen from presidents in the last few decades. And I can't recall any other president in recent years so malignantly ignorant, petty or egotistical.
            
            Whatever people think of Congress (and I accept there's lots of reasons to find fault with that institution) it's existence and authority are derived from the Constitution. So an attack on the authority of Congress can only go so far before it becomes an attack on the Constitution itself.
            
            Protesting against Congress and the current political system is all well and good, but doing that by backing someone who seems intent on ripping up the Constitution, is perhaps not the smartest way of doing it.

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               Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

               I don't see Trump attempting to rip up the constitution. As I stated, I see the circus in the House for exactly what it is.

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                  Ken Burgessposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  As I typed elsewhere and as is apt here:
                  
                  The framers of the Constitution would be appalled that Congress is in the pockets of corporations and special interest groups, and has no concern at all for the voters.
                  
                  They would be appalled that the Democratic Party has become home to factions that want to do away with the Constitution, that want to do away with national borders and give away their sovereignty to international bodies.
                  
                  They would be appalled that foreign interests and international corporations are now considered to have the same rights and abilities as citizens, and hold sway over enough politicians in congress (on both sides of the aisle) that they, not the American people, effectively have control over the direction of the country.
                  
                  This is the reason why we have Trump... the people had a choice between a corrupt establishment insider who was only interested in what she could game out of the system.  And a non-politician who was pointing out all that is wrong with Washington D.C.

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                     Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                     You're preaching to the choir here. I agree wholeheartedly. The left takes no responsibility for the completely corrupt candidatethey put forth in that election and,instead, continually insult other Americans for a vote of 'enough is enough'
                     
                     But, I guess it is a basic difference in philosophy. One side expects government to maintain a level playing field, sees the total disregard and contempt the government has for the average citizen and the desire of those in power to enrich themselves, at our expense;the other side trusts the government to take care of them and swallows whatever lie is presented by the government's media.
                     
                     Same reality. Two bizarrely different interpretations of that reality.

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                     Don Wposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                     I think the framers of the Constitution would also be appalled by a president issuing a blanket ban on cooperation with Congress, ignoring the constitutional authority of the Congress and effectively preventing it doing its constitutional duty to provide oversight of the Executive.
                     
                     I think they would be appalled that the Republican Party seems intent on siding with a hostile foreign government in a way that's against the country's interests, by promoting conspiracy theories that favor Russia, and refusing to act to secure the integrity of the election process, despite there being a "clear and present danger" that the same country continues to meddle in the process.
                     
                     I think they would be appalled that one of the CEOs of those international corporations, and a chief proponent of buying political influence, is attempting to ignore the Constitution to avoid accountability, while (to the delight of that same hostile foreign government) repeatedly attacking and undermining the integrity of people within his own government who have served their country with honor.
                     
                     I think the people had a choice between someone from within the political establishment (whether she was corrupt or not is a matter of opinion) and a plutocrat supported by a hostile foreign government, and presented as a people's champion despite being one of the donor class that created the problem with Congress in the first place.
                     
                     The false narrative worked, and that seems related to Trump's personality as much as anything else. The fact he is a rude loud-mouth is apparently enough to make some people think he is a champion of the people. Maybe people see him as the kind of ordinary Joe they'd meet at the local bar. I don't know. Either way, Trump is in fact a plutocrat; the multi-billionaire son of a multi-millionaire father who has a vested interest in removing whatever protections the Constitution affords ordinary people from the very international corporations you are complaining about. He is as far from being a people's champion as anyone could be.

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      Sharlee01posted 4 years agoin reply to this

      I think it was clear from the beginning of Trump's term that he would be impeached.  It was also clear from the first day of the circus it would end up in the Senate. Hopefully, this will be wrapped up soon, what a waste of funds. I might add this all could have been decided by the people in the next election. Ultimately, in the end, it will be the people that decide Trump's fate.

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   Castlepalomaposted 4 years ago

   God bless Trump, the Pope and most everyone else won't.

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