A little background:
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-says-confe … 17104.html
The photo in the article says it all. Do I overreact over a piece of cloth or what appears to be an on going attitude of rebellion, divisiveness and resentment from much of Trump's base?
At best, it is an old relic of treason, rebellion and the promotion of the idea of owning human beings that needs to be consigned to a museum. At worse, it has been a divisive symbol used to terrorize African Americans and display resistance to their just pursuit of equality. So many of our enemies have wrapped themselves up in this banner, now Donald Trump is included.
So, who is saying that I need to give Donald Trump a second look? I know who he is, he substantiates my worse suspicion every single day.
This was a well stated comment regarding the proper place of the Confederate Flag within the military community:
Esper said in the memo: "Flags are powerful symbols, particularly in the military community for whom flags embody common mission, common histories and the special, timeless bond of warriors…. The flags we fly must accord with the military imperatives of good order and discipline, treating all our people with dignity and respect, and rejecting divisive symbols."
Could not have said it better.
"At best, it is an old relic of treason, rebellion and the promotion of the idea of owning human beings that needs to be consigned to a museum."
Have you asked the people that fly one from their truck if that's what it means to them? Or did you just make that all up from your own feelings and emotions without regard to why the owners fly it?
Personally I don't think is much difference between the "flag of the south" and that of the boy scouts, Masons or any other group that wishes to identify as just a little different from the rest of us. Southerners are noted (at least in their own mind) as more gracious, more polite, more generous and certainly more self sufficient and free that we "Yankees" - think it might be some of those perceived attributes they are advertising rather than a return to slavery?
You can fly what you want from your truck or private property.
the KKK and all prominent racists organization used it as a symbol, how gracious is that? Would you say the same if a Nazism swatica banner were flown in its stead, would that identify a group "a little different from the rest of us"?
It is a proud symbol of the "white south" when 30 percent or more are African American. Are those folks representative of "the South"?
Trump, as usual, is both naive and obtuse regarding American history, am I not surprised?
Or is all that just coincidence?
I don' think that it asks much that this banner not be promoted or extolled in public places in consideration of those "other southern residents who consider it a symbol of hatred.
I take it from your answer you haven't, indeed, spoken to anyone flying that flag and discussed why they do it. That instead you did make up their reasons from within your own feelings.
Is that how you feel we should do things? Whatever it is your neighbor does that you don't like he should be prohibited from doing? Just because YOU don't like it, regardless of how much, or why, he DOES like it? To me that goes right back to the whole PC thing, which has gotten completely and totally out of hand.
No, that is not what I am saying, Wilderness
My neighbor is free to fly his Nazi banner and display his Nazi regalia on his private property.
I don't have to talk to the yahoo in the pickup truck to be aware of the symbolism of this banner within the larger picture. It was recently removed from the Mississippi flag, if it were innocuous would that have taken place?
I talking about PUBLIC display and support as CONDONED by the state or municipality to whom I pay my taxes. Much in the vein of religious choice not based upon "Establishment".
"if it were innocuous would that have taken place?"
Absolutely it would; politicians want their jobs, and if it means being PC, and forcing others to do the same in response to made up offenses, then they will do that.
As far as public...I had not realized that was the topic. But my local park has a monument to Anne Frank; is there a real difference outside of your built in prejudice against the south? As you mention, our public places are adorned everywhere with religious symbology, from crosses to the ten commandments. Our money carries Christian wording.
Seems to me that local sentiment should prevail here, not that of someone without a stake in it, and not a small minority that professes to care (I spent 22 years in the South and never had one black express anger or sorrow at the sight of a confederate flag. Or white, for that matter.).
What the hell do you know? Made up offenses? You really are out of touch, aren't you. Those politicians are there to serve everyone not just some anachronistic racist cult and I suppose that the Black population that live there which is substantial are to just go along? I see now that peace will remain elusive within this society for some time.
Ann Frank has never been associated with bigotry and terror, do you know the history of the region and the significance of the banner that you are so quick to support?
Who are you to say that they are made up? I am a black man and I take offense of such symbols being represented on my state flag.
Of course black people are not going to tell YOU if they have concerns about these matters.
Why is it always "the world according to Wilderness"?
I live in the South, Wilderness, the past in the South has been ugly. It is funny that you right wing types are always telling us to forget the past and move on, but you never do.
"I am a black man and I take offense of such symbols being represented on my state flag."
As I have often said, if one looks hard enough one can offense in nearly anything. And if one is a little tolerant, and looks beyond their own feelings into others, they will very often find what they never expect.
I lived in the South, too, for over 20 years, and I have friends there now. I found no more ugliness there than I did anywhere else, and often people that were, and are, the salt of the earth. Not necessarily saints, but certainly not bad people either.
You forgot the part where President Donald Trump says it is "Freedom of Speech."
Which is correct.
I believe the black panthers have their own flag as well as the gay community. There is the straight pride flag, Gadsden flag from the time of the Revolutionary War. Professional sports teams have their flags, states have their flags, the thin blue line flag, each branch of the military has its own flag and more.
So, we are back to this being an issue of freedom of speech.
Yes, freedom of speech is valid, Mike, but I don't want your "speech" on my state flag, nor publically supported in the public square.
That statement from the military regarding the presence of the confederate banner at their installations, given a prominent place is important. You should read it again. Is it only Conservatives that have the gall to really dispute such things?
Okay, let's look a little deeper.
What if someone is offended by the Gay Pride flag. It is often displayed in the public squares in many cities. Some places even have a gay pride month and openly fly the gay pride flag with the US flag at all public flag displays. There are people who feel this flag is anti-Christian. Should their feelings of being offended be taken into consideration and the gay pride flag removed from the public squares because of this?
Why are the stars and bars displayed at military installations? Some of the greatest military generals for the United States were from the south. These are individuals who fought in the Revolutionary War, War of 1812 as well as the Mexican/American War. They were part of the history of the American military long before the civil war.
The United States could have lost the War of 1812 if not for some of the generals and troops from the south. Ever hear of the Battle of New Orleans? Maybe you should read about the Battle of Churubusco from the Mexican/American war. Robert E. Lee was a major part of this war.
You can't erase history. You can only lean from it.
Alright, Mike, I see your point. I would take offense at the confederate standards as the right wingers would resist the gay or Black Panther flag.
But I don't accept any of them as part of a design of the state flag, maybe that explains the difference as to why Mississippi had to change course.
I can't imagine men who fought during 1812 who would remain living and viable by 1861. Second point is just like Benedict Arnold, whatever you did favorably for your country prior to your treason against it, hereby makes previous contributions null and void.
We know what the Confederate banner has stood for just as we know what the Nazi Banner has stood for. The message sent by both are loud and clear to anyone with both eyes open.
Unfortunately, too many in fact fail to learn from history and how to avoid going down a previously failed path.
Robert E. Lee ceased being a national hero when he turned arms against the United States.
As a southerner, my opinion is that since this symbol is perceived negatively by many, courtesy dictates it doesn't matter what the person flying the flag perceives, they shouldn't fly it. It's a question of compassion and consideration.
I think the flag, the statues, etc. can be viewed as reconciliation and forgiveness. But I also completely understand factions in our country don't allow for compassion or forgiveness in their world view.
I don't see a lot of difference between that flag and statues. We are not at a point where if you don't like it, forbid and even destroy it; statuary of some of our most revered ancestors are being torn down because someone, somewhere decided they didn't like it. Columbus, Washington, Jefferson; all have been destroyed by people demanding that everyone in the country exhibit the same lack of tolerance and understanding that they do.
So "consideration" goes both ways, but we aren't seeing that. Only "If I don't like it you can't have it".
I get your point. The left has made it clear its either their narrow minded racist way or riots and property destruction, or attempts to ruin other's lives through online mobs.
I'll be less inclined to raise an eyebrow when I see one now; after what you've pointed out.
YOUR most revered ancestors.....
I can't speak to those that want to bring down Jefferson and Washington, I disagree.
There is a difference between regalia and representatives from a treasonist and rebellious Confederacy, beyond Americans that owned slaves when it was legal.
Yes, you can have it but I won't support nor pay for it. Keep your filthy mementos on your own property and keep your hands out of my pockets in regards to sustaining them. An attitude no different than what I would have regarding Nazi symbolism and regalia.
So why did Mississippi relent in changing its flag? after all, whites could easy have out voted blacks as deciding this as virtually all whites there are GOP to a man. So, don't blame PC, I like the economic boycotts, that hits the "Man" in the pocketbook when he consistently fails to listen.
If Mississippi wanted to stop being Mississippi ( at the bottom of everything) and attract commerce and business from the outside then that stars and bars persona, and the "lost cause" crap will have to go. No forward moving and progressive business wants to be snarled in this controversy. It is just easier to take your business and the opportunities elsewhere.
Is that perfectly ethical and reasonable for you, Mr. Wilderness?
I like the economic boycotts over protests, it gets the attention of the tone deaf much faster and with more certainty. The press, social media to spotlight the stubborn and resistant, subjecting them to national and international scrutiny, just love it. Because something is going to give as a result.
Disregarding and disrespecting US and our views will just lead to more strife across the land and that can not be considered as you say, knowing that the century is progressing, as in the best interests of the country.
The confederate flag is a symbol of racism. Anyone who flies it is supporting racism and is likely a racist. Anyone who defends it is racist.
The flag symbolizes betrayal of our Republic. It also is a symbol of the losers.
The confederate flag became popular NOT as a symbol of southern pride, but as an opposition symbol to civil rights. As civil rights grew in the 1940s, the flying of the confederate flag grew.
You fly the confederate flag, you're a racist. Or you're simply comfortable promoting racist ideology, which makes you a racist.
And yes, that would mean Donald Trump is a racist. Besides defending the confederate flag, he seems to be fine tweeting videos where people yell "white power".
If it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck...
Same question I ask Credence - how many of those flying that flag have you talked to and gotten the answer you give?
Or are you making it up out of your own feelings without ever getting an opinion from those that use it?
Wilderness, I ask the question, do you really think that they are going to give ME an honest answer?
That's like asking a Jewish fellow to ask the man with the Nazi banner on his pickup truck, "What does that banner symbolize for you and why?"
So you then have every right to make up your own symbolism and declare that the ones flying that flag agree with you?
I don't think so. You don't have the right to declare that they will lie to you because of the color of your skin and therefore you can make up anything you want and claim that is their true feelings.
So if I wear a swastika, it is okay as long as I don’t know what it symbolizes?
It's okay with me if you wear a swastika. It's original meaning had nothing to do with Nazi Germany. It is actually a Hindu symbol. In the ancient Indian language of Sanskrit, swastika means "well-being". The symbol has been used by Hindus, Buddhists and Jains for millennia and is commonly assumed to be an Indian sign.
People know what it represents to them. They may not know the true meaning of the symbol.
Cmon, Mike, your equivocating as this is being obtuse about this issue. The entire world knows what the Nazi regalia signifies and it is not all this cryptic stuff that you talk about.
The swastika means one thing for those who are horrified by Nazis. It is still a symbol with an entirely different meaning in Hindu culture.
So, in European and Western culture it means one thing, in Hindu culture and in the far east it means something completely different, yet, it is the same symbol.
Should Hindus, Buddhists and others remove a symbol they've used for thousands of years because of someone who used it to do evil things less than a hundred years ago?
It's the same symbol.
Any sane person would have been horrified regarding the Nazis. Nobody says to remove the swastica but this being a "Western Society" that Buddhist explanation comes off as cryptic.
I can display my Malcolm X cap, but I have to realize that it sent a message that had a definite meaning for whites that are intimidated by the man. I have free speech, but I am responsible for whatever it is I say.
When 90 percent of the world see this flag waving in the breeze, they are not thinking about Hindus or Buddhists. I thought that Nazism was associated with the flag and Hindus and Buddhists were involved with the symbols.
"I have free speech, but I am responsible for whatever it is I say."
Are you responsible when someone takes your message and decides it means something different than what you have worked hard to project? When they spin it through their own feelings rather than listen to the words or pictures? Are you still responsible?
Because it is an absolute surety that someone, somewhere will find offense in every word that escapes your mouth. You could simply post "I love you" and someone will be offended.
"People know what it represents to them."
This seems to be the bone of contention: the confederate flag carries a negative symbolism to some people and they then demand that everyone use the same symbolism rather than what they see in that flag.
We are getting nowhere.
But let it suffice to say that the banner WILL be removed from the Mississippi state flag as it is obvious that there is enough contention about the symbols and their meaning. If I present a state flag with a Black Panther emblem who would understand that it could have an alternate meaning to those that many would have? Would you have that same "open to interpretation" attitude?
So the best thing is to remove any controversial symbols from a state flag that is supposedly to represent us all.
Sorry, Cred; the point is that everything is "controversial" to someone, somewhere.
But I do agree that state and federal facilities should fly only the federal and state flags. Plus, maybe, a city one if appropriate. No black panthers, no gay pride, no confederate flag - nothing but the flag(s) of the facility. Anything else is nothing but politicians currying favor from special interest groups.
"But I do agree that state and federal facilities should fly only the federal and state flags. Plus, maybe, a city one if appropriate. No black panthers, no gay pride, no confederate flag - nothing but the flag(s) of the facility. Anything else is nothing but politicians currying favor from special interest groups."
Ok, we are on the same page here.
I have had neighbors who are African American who fly the confederate flag.
Could you make that fit iinto your hate filled perspective?
It is typical of the right to always attempt to make the exception, the rule..
Anyone who has ever cracked open a book knows what that confederate banner has signified, do we ask the same"what if" regarding the Nazi swastica?
Yes, I despise racists. That is correct. Flying the confederate flag is little different than having a swastika tattooed on your arm. It really is only the Right who supports such symbols.
Are you saying blacks who fly the Confederate flag are racist, or (more likely) you don't feel like trying to understand why they do, since by doing that you might have took consider alternative views?
Just so you understand, I also abhor racism but I see a whole lot of it coming from the left, all wrapped up in a pretense of self righteousness.
I don't know how this obvious symbol of hatred and defiance toward civil rights objectives are now subject to some sort of "spin" by conservatives?
Is it not sufficient and more accurate to simply open a book, read an encyclopedic article, any of them pointing to the same thing as more representative of the truth over asking some guy with a banner on his pickup truck?
There is a reason why the issues regarding the Confederacy and their prominent officers named for military installations are now being subject to renaming. Even the Republicans realize being stubborn here will only hurt their prospects just that much more this fall.
Because racism runs deep in our country.
"Even the Republicans realize being stubborn here will only hurt their prospects just that much more this fall."
This tells me there is no real substance to this issue. It is simply politics. Military bases that have had the same name for over 100 years must NOW be changed. I suppose now it is politically corrects to be upset by it. For over 100 years...there was no problem. It's just politics.
Mr. Trump is kinda dumb for promoting the Confederate flag in this current political climate. He would do well to heed the advice from his GOP colleagues to learn to pick his battles more carefully.
He says that he is a stable genius and above politics, well politics in Washington is an unmovable edifice and he will find that in the end it will prove to be his undoing.
I live in the South. I would highly suggest not confronting a person in a pickup truck while flying a confederate flag with a gun rack and a "goat ropers need love too" bumper sticker. If that is your decision you might want to consider wearing Kevlar. LOL. To the moderators, this is not a suggestion of violence but an attempt at humor. Sorry if I failed.
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