Is the US headed toward Communism?
How will this type of regime come about. I would say through technology.
The most powerful of entities are Facebook, Amazon and Google.
How much power are we willing to let them have?
How can we reign them in?
... or do we want them to control us?
Do we want to be blindly obedient to their influence?
Can they be stopped?
What is their connection to the government?
What will the future be?
Free or not?Nope: Even Britain with strong Socialism built into our very fibre and fabric of 'Society' and British laws e.g. the NHS, due to the influence of the Labour Party (the political wing of the Trade Unions, and a Socialist Party) is far from communism.
A better question may be; “Is the USA headed towards Socialism”.Yes, and many think its a wonderful thing.
However, the country is composed of states. This reality makes it a republic. What is the point of a republic if you are just going to force the individual states into a system which takes a way their autonomy, (and their ability to check the Feds.)
Might as well remove statehood while you're at it.
Which has been and is happening.
The consequence of losing individual states is the gaining of a limitlessly powerful central government.Kathryn, the USA (like the Republic of Ireland) is a Republic because you don’t have a Monarchy; albeit, these days a Monarchy is just a ‘figure head’.
I can sympathise with your viewpoint in that the UK (United Kingdoms) aren’t all ruled by the UK Government to the extent that Americans might think they are.
The UK is the ‘Union under Treaty’ of four separate countries (Kingdoms); England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales; with Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales all being the Celtic Nations.
And as such each of the four nations have their own Government:-
• Scotland has a Socialist Government; the SNP (Scottish Nationalist Party).
• Wales has a Socialist Government; Labour.
• Northern Ireland have a ‘power share’ Government where both the hard right-wing DUP party and the hard-left Sinn Fein party (the political wing of the IRA) share power as part of the 1998 Peace Treaty (Good Friday Agreement).
• England currently has a right-wing Conservative/Capitalist Government; who also governs the whole of the UK; just like the Federal Government governs the States in the USA.
However, although the UK Government (in England) governs the whole of the UK, the Celtic nations (Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales) also have a certain level of autonomy, similar to the States in the USA. For example:-
• While Universities charge fees in England & Wales (just like in the USA); in Scotland University is free.
• The Scottish Government has also banned fracking; whereas the English Government have only made the Regulations so tough in England and Wales that fracking isn’t commercially viable.
The Celtic nations (Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales) all also manage their own health, education, and transport for example; so although the laws are often similar between the regions, there are regional variations.
While you fear that the individual States might be losing their ‘Statehood’ in the USA; quite the reverse is happing in the UK e.g.
• Scotland is pressing for Independence (to become an independent country again),
• Northern Ireland are slowly moving towards breaking away from the UK and re-re-uniting with the Republic of Ireland,
• Movement towards Independence in Wales is small, but growing, and
• Cornwall, as a newly recognised Celtic Nation is beginning to seek their own autonomy, separate from England.
In 2014 the UK Government granted Cornwall (in law) ‘Special Status’ as a protected minority nation, putting Cornwall on the same legal status as Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales.
Below is a video from 2012, as part of Cornwall’s campaign for legal recognition as being not part of England:-
Free Cornwall - Cornwall is not England: https://youtu.be/Cmtqn8wANLY
Nathan,
On this subject, I don't think real Americans and Europeans will ever understand one another.
We are not subjects of a Monarchy, and our history is one of fighting against such things. We are American citizens. We've never pledge our loyalty to Queen and country. We pledge our loyalty ONLY to our country.
What Europeans talk about the benefits of socialism, it horrifies most real Americans.
Europeans seem perfectly comfortable with having their government tell them what to do, how to act, what to think and more. The American spirit is one of taking care of ones self with limited government intervention. We learned long ago that those in government are NOT the wizards of smart. We put as many restrictions on them as possible and many of us don't think we put enough.
There has never been a Hitler or Mussolini as a leader in our country. That is the history of Europe. To think there has, only show a sincere ignorance of history.
We don't need free health care because many of us like choosing our healthcare plan and what is covered in it. What happens if you want a procedure the government won't pay? Then you're forced to go elsewhere. The mother of a friend from Wales came to the United States for a procedure. This is the place that has the highest rates of modern medical equipment per capita than any other country. The best doctors can be found in the United States. Why? Capitalism. They know if they come here they can make more money than any other place in the world. So, have your free health care. We have the best doctors and the most modern medical equipment available for our citizens than any other country in the world.
Europeans often seem to be people who need to be told what to do by their government. Americans just need government to leave us alone, and let us have the tools to take care of ourselves. Again, the less government the better. This is what made the United States have the largest economy in the world. When we let the government take over too much, it will put us down with the European economies and the economies of the rest of the world.Much of what you have said is understandable.
My view point would be the Corporationism is destorying much of the American common folk economy, health care and national environment.
Luckily for me, I go on a private system like the wealthy. Accept with a no harm policy.Yep, Readmikenow, I agree with you; Americans and Europeans will never understand one another; two completely different cultures.
Yep, I know that the benefits of socialism that Europeans relish in, horrifies most Americans; fear of the unknown?
But our Governments don’t tell us what to do, how to act or what to think; we have ‘Freedoms’ in Europe, just like you do in the USA. The only difference is, is that there is a lot more ‘Regulations’ on Businesses, Industry, Commerce and throughout Society to better protect and to give better security (safety net) to the weaker and more vulnerable sectors of Society; and yes Europeans are perfectly comfortable with that, because we recognise that given a change of circumstance anyone of us could fall on hard times or fall ill, and would then benefit from Government aid (welfare, healthcare).
That’s where the American and European culture differs “the American spirit is one of taking care of one’s self, with limited government intervention”; very much the ‘Wild West Spirit” of ever man for himself.
Where the European spirit is one of ‘community’, where we instinctively look after one and other, and protect the weak and vulnerable; in a time of national crisis, in Britain, this manifests itself as what’s known as the “Wartime Spirit”.
In other words the European spirit is the complete reverse of the American spirit.
No, we don’t need to be told what to do by our governments in Europe; we have governments of all political persuasions, elected from a wide spectrum of politics; and (although nothing is perfect) generally (even if we don’t fully trust the elected government) we have more faith and trust in our political system than Americans have in their politicians; I think predominantly because we ‘the people’ do have an impact on governments through ‘consultation’, lobbying and pressure groups etc. So it’s not so much of Europeans needing to be told what to do by the governments; it’s more of a case of governments being elected by the people to represent the people e.g. the election manifesto.
And FYI, the reason the USA is the wealthiest country in the world is because it’s a large country with a large economy e.g. one of the biggest developed countries in the world; but FYI the EU’s economic wealth isn’t that far behind the USA, and the UK (in spite of its small size) is the 6th economically wealthiest country in the world.
Healthcare USA vs the UK and the World
Yep, in the USA you have a choice of what healthcare plan you want to pay for; if you can afford it: But for millions of Americans, they can’t afford but the most basic care; which is far inferior to the free healthcare on the NHS in the UK.
Yep, there are medical conditions so rare that only a few countries, such as the USA offer that procedure. But for the vast majority of people, the vast majority of the time the NHS offers as good a healthcare as the USA or any other country (and for free).
Yes, doctors and nurses get paid a lot more in the USA than they do in the UK or most any other country in the world; but that doesn’t mean the USA has a monopoly on healthcare innovation.
In the UK the NHS works in partnership with Universities facilitating medial R&D (Research and Development), at cost; and as such some of the greatest achievements made by the NHS, as a world first include:-
• 1949: Intraocular lens. ...developed and used by the NHS
• 1958: First use in the world of ultrasound in obstetrics. ...done by the NHS
• 1962: First Total hip replacement in the world. ...done by the NHS
• 1978: World's first test tube baby born in the UK. ...on the NHS
• 1986: World's first combined heart, liver & lung transplant. ...done by the NHS
• 1991: World's first robotic surgery…. Done by the NHS
• 2000: World’s first gene therapy (GT) trials for children without an immune system… done by the NHS.
• 2013: World’s first bionic hand…. Develop by the NHS.
Other stats, showing that the USA doesn’t always have the best in healthcare include:-
• The UK has 2.8 doctors per 1,000 of population; the USA has 2.6 doctors per 1,000 of population (58th from the top best); Germany has 4.2 doctors per 1,000 of population.
• Acute care beds for 1,000 population; Japan 1st with 7.8 acute care beds for 1,000 population; Germany is 2nd with 6 per 1,000, and USA is 9th with 2.5 per 1,000
• Nurses 17.4 per 1,000 in USA, 20 per 1,000 in Sweden, and 9.8 per 1,000 in UK.
• MRI’s per Capita. Japan is 1st with 55.2 per million population, the USA is 2nd with 40.4 per million, Germany 3rd with 34.7 per million and UK has 6.1 per million.
For the three weeks I was in hospital with kidney infection earlier this year I had:-
• Two ECG’s
• An MRI scan (lasting 20 minutes)
• A chest x-ray, and
• Numerous other scans and tests most days; plus
• 2 or 3 litres of saline solution to help support my kidneys while they regained their strength, and
• Blood tests every single day.
When I feel ill in January, I was taken to hospital by ambulance, and following my discharge from hospital, I’ve made several visits to my doctor, and bi-monthly day visits to the hospital for check-ups and tests, including another MRI scan (my third MRI scan this year) while I recover; with the occasional visit to my home by the ‘District Nurse’; and that and the medication while I make a full recover; all have cost me nothing ‘not a single penny (cent)’.
Even the hospital food & hot drinks, which I enjoyed, was all free. Each morning the catering staff would bring the menu around so that I could tick which menu options I wanted e.g. as well as breakfast, a three course meal for lunch and a three course meal for the evening meal. I had a lot of coffee in hospital, but my favourite hot drinks were hot chocolate, and coffee made with 100% milk (rather than water).
My understanding from speaking with other Americans, is that in the USA the ambulance ride alone would typically cost $10,000, and all the tests I had while in hospital would soon add up; so that in the USA people who can’t afford expensive health insurance either have to use their savings, sale their house, go bankrupt or go without the full medical treatment, and take their chances with nature?
Whereas in the UK; it’s all free to everyone at the point of use, so we all get the best care available (people before profit) and we don’t have to worry about the costs.
And of course, the USA medical services pays full whack for medication to the Pharmaceutical Companies; whereas the NHS with over 66 million customer base is a big customer to the Pharmaceutical Companies and therefore able to negotiate tuff deals e.g. the cost of insulin in the USA is 8.9 times that the NHS pays for insulin in the UK.Nathan,
Freedom and independence are two things Europeans will never understand. That's why so many Europeans left their countries to come here centuries ago.
Yes, there are people in the United States who need to have the government take care of them like the people in Europe need to be taken care of by their government.
But, there are even more people who can take care of themselves and flourish without government intervention. As I said before, we know those who work in government are NOT the wizards of smart. They are often people who have personal agendas. Most of us need very little government in our lives to survive.
I know the concept of freedom of speech in the United States just stuns most Europeans. I think it was one of your former royals who said it was "bonkers." That didn't set well with most Americans. Europeans need to realize most of us don't really care what Europeans think. Not really impressed by Europeans.
Thanks for sharing the success of medical innovation in the UK. However, it isn't even close to the medical innovations created by the United States. The MRI, CT Scan, polio vaccine and more were invented in the United States. It remains the leader in medical and biotechnical research.
"The USA is an indisputable world leader in medical and biotechnological research"
https://arxiv.org/abs/1807.01225
We don't have the world's largest economy in the world because we're a large country. Russia is a large country and isn't even close. No, it comes down to embracing freedom and independence. The opportunity to do the best possible for yourself. This draw people from all over the world to come and settle here. One of our biggest problems is trying to keep people from breaking our laws to come here and be a citizen. Since my family came here from Ukraine and has established itself, I can see the difference between the old country and the United States. The thinking and mindset are very different.
Guess what? Your healthcare isn't free. Citizens and businesses pay for it through their taxes. Now, in the United States, if you make that much money, you can get "free" health care...paid for by US citizens and companies. People, with no healthcare insurance, walk into hospitals every day and get treatment they need. Their care is paid for by a government program. But, it is Capitalism, the ability to be as successful as you are able, that creates a tax base to make this possible.
So, as Europeans enjoy having a government that tells them what they can and can't do in many, many, many situations, I'll stay with the United States.
I think this article pretty much sums up the differences.
"Europeans are focused on fairness. Americans are focused on freedom. Europeans look at Americans as a bunch of uncultured barbarians running amok in their country and worse, through the world spreading their vulgar culture around. Americans see Europeans as a bunch of sissies whose people meekly except regulations and massive taxation in an effort to make life more "fair" for everyone. The American response would typically be "Hey, life ain't fair!" to which the European might answer "But it should be!" And so it goes from there."
"Great freedom requiring personal responsibility is one of the cornerstones of American culture. And it is a relatively foreign concept to Europeans (not personal responsibility but the relationship between the two). We pretty much allow people to do what they want here. You can own a gun with few exceptions. There are few regulations in being an entrepreneur. But at the same time, there are few regulations to keep a company from simply bombing on its own. People in the United States aren't taxed very much relatively speaking. They're free to make decisions on how they want to spend the money they earn. But on the other side of the coin, they also are free to make poor choices and end up in the gutter.
I don't mean this as a criticism of Europe but Europeans have never had the kinds of freedoms Americans have. Even today. It was, after all, a big reason why so many Europeans came to the United States in the first place. The US government is formed on the basis of the federal government essentially providing a handful of essential services. It's actually the weakest central government in the industrialized world in terms of its domestic power. But Europeans have not demanded the kinds of freedoms Americans want. A European might correctly point out that too much freedom leads to chaos and anarchy. And that Europeans have chosen to pull back a bit from the brink that Americans seem so readily to jump over in order to try to create a more just society."
http://draginol.joeuser.com/article/955 … s_FairnessReadmikenow, I like your link to “USA vs. Europe: Freedom vs. Fairness”; a lot of home truths in the article.
As we both agree, Europeans and Americans will never understand each other because of our ‘cultural’ differences.
Here, I cover the points you raise, as follows:-
Historic Migration from Europe to America
Europeans didn’t just leave their countries to emigrate to America centuries ago because they wanted ‘Freedom & Independence’; they left because of ‘Religious Persecution’. From the time of the beginning of the Reformation in 1517, when the Church split leading to the creation of Protestants, historically Catholics and Protestants persecuted each other.
Times have changed, and these days, with the exception of places like Ireland, Europe isn’t very religious e.g. Britain is now a ‘Secular’ Society with over 50% of the population having no religion, many of whom are atheists or agnostics. Northern Ireland is an exception, where 93% are religious (48% Protestants & 45% Catholic). And in Northern Ireland a fragile peace is only kept by the 1998 peace treaty (Good Friday Agreement); an uneasy peace agreement which is currently under threat by Brexit.
Current Migrations between UK & USA
Yep, the USA is a popular destination for those seeking money (greed & wealth); but it’s not to everyone’s taste. For example, there are currently 197,355 Americans living in the UK (2011 Census); and here is one, an American Officially Receiving British Citizenship: https://youtu.be/vIu6KTCnaHg
Integrity of Governments
Yep, I get the impression that in respect to the USA your comment “….we know those who work in government are NOT the wizards of smart.” is very true; but not so much in the UK:-
Yes, if you’re talking about politicians, they don’t need to be smart to get elected, and often ambitious politicians do have personal agendas; but in the UK the Government machinery isn’t just Parliament, it’s also the ‘civil service’, which (unlike the USA) in the UK are apolitical (politically neutral). In the UK it doesn’t matter which Government is in power, or what their policies are, the UK Government has the machinery of the civil service behind them to carry out those policies ‘professionally’; something I know from first-hand experience because I was a civil servant from the time I left school until the day I took early retirement.
In the UK, to prevent Governments from ‘manipulating’ the data/stats or influencing key Government Departments for ‘political gain’, in the 1990’s the Labour Government (Socialists) made key critical Government Departments ‘Independent’ from the Government, and only answerable to Parliament e.g. the ONS (Office of National Statistics); the National Archives; the Electoral Commission; Ofcom (watchdog) etc. e.g. one of Ofcom’s role is to regulate the News Media on TV so that unlike the Newspapers (who still have the Freedom of the Press in the UK), all News Media on British TV & Radio is heavily ‘Regulated’ to ensure its non-bias, factual and balanced. Hence, unlike reading the newspapers, in the UK you can trust the news you see on TV to be non-political, informative and factual.
Freedom of Speech
Yep, I agree with Prince Harry in his comments that the “concept of Freedom of Speech in the USA is “bonkers”. In Europe we have ‘Freedom of Speech’, but we take the attitude that with that ‘freedom’, comes ‘responsibility’ e.g. to refrain from making remarks that are hurtful to minority groups that can’t defend themselves; a simple courtesy, and respect for those less able to stand-up for themselves such as religious minorities, disabled, elderly and ethnic minorities etc.
Indifference from Across the Pond
Yep, Europeans do realize that most Americans (who haven’t spent time in Europe) arrogantly consider themselves the ‘superior race’; that’s an attitude that’s blatantly office on Social Media. For American’s who do spend time in Europe, it’s a culture shock, and their attitudes towards the rest of the world are more humble:-
6 LIES America Told Me! (As told by an American who’s moved to Europe): https://youtu.be/JpnzGPvepa4 (and she talks about ‘Freedom’ from 11:33 in the video).
World Leaders in R&D (Research & Development)
Yes, the USA may well be a world leader in “medical and biotechnological research"; but it doesn’t have a monopoly e.g. the UK is a Leader in Preclinical Cell and Gene Therapy Research, the UK is a pioneer in the use of large-scale, rapid whole-genome sequencing of the Covid virus; and 45% of all covid sequences (identification of new covid variants) around the world are identified by the UK.
Although the USA is a world leader in “medical and biotechnological research", and no doubt in other scientific and technological areas; there are plenty of areas where other countries around the world are world leaders and not the USA.
For examples, just to name a few:-
• China is a world leader in solar power technology; and was the first country to develop the hydrogen train. Currently, the only other two countries in the world using hydrogen trains are Germany and Britain.
• The UK is a world leader in offshore wind turbine technology; with over half the world’s offshore wind turbines being off the coast of Britain; and Britain laying an average of one new wind turbine per day; as the UK rapidly moves towards being a net carbon neutral country.
• Scotland is a world leader on the R&D of Green Hydrogen.
• Israel is a world leader in the R&D of desalination.
Just 7 years ago (in 2014) 30% of the UK’s electricity came from burning coal, and only about 15% of our electricity was from Renewable Energy. Now, less than 1% of our electricity comes from coal, and over 50% from Renewable Energy.
GDP
Yep, I didn’t word things as well as I could have e.g. I was referring to the economies of the Industrialised nations specifically; and yes the USA does have the world’s largest GDP by value; but when you look at the GDP per capita the USA is 7th not 1st; GDP per capita countries like Luxembourg, Ireland, Switzerland and Norway are all far wealthier than the USA. Freedom and independence has very little to do with it: While you may attract people from all over the world who are driven by money, wealth, profit and greed; there are a lot of people with talent and skills who are not driven by wealth, dedicated to the work they do, who make major contributions in all countries across the world. You need to look at the achievement being made in other countries across the world to appreciate that no one country is superior to any other.
Healthcare
Yep I know our healthcare in the UK is paid for through taxes; but FYI businesses don’t contribute any taxes towards the NHS (National Health Service), only citizens in full time employment and not on the legal minimum wage.
According to data published by the ONS (Office of National Statistics) the average wage earner in the UK pays typically around £2,627 ($3,725) per year in taxes towards the cost of the NHS. And for that $310 per month paid in taxes by the average worker, everything on the NHS (including prescriptions) are all free at the point of use to everyone regardless to their personal income and wealth. Even the Royal Family uses the NHS.
In my case, I and my wife took early retirement, so we no longer pay any taxes towards the NHS; yet we still have full access to the NHS for all our medical needs; for free.
Yep, in the USA people with no healthcare insurance may well be able to walk into hospitals every day to get treatment that they need; but they still have to pay for medication, and they can’t see a doctor without paying a fee, and certainly they can’t afford an ambulance without ending up with a hefty bill that will make them bankrupt.
And what about medical care that’s not life threatening; can people in the USA who can’t afford medical insurance get that paid for by the Government?
In the UK, on the NHS for Free (at the point of use), as an example, medical treatment for these non-life threatening services is available to all who require them:-
• Erectile dysfunction
• Sex change
• Fertility clinics, including ‘test tube babies’
It’s not capitalism that makes free healthcare to those who can’t afford it possible; most every developed country; including communist countries provide some form of free or affordable healthcare; with the USA being by far the most expensive in the world.
For example, Southmead Hospital, Bristol; the newly built hospital where I was taken to by ambulance (for free) when I fell ill earlier in the year, and where I spent three weeks (for free) recovering has 800 private single bedrooms, each with its own en-suite bathroom and TV, and the mortgage the Government pays on the building is £100,000 ($140,000) per day.
Southmead Hospital, Bristol: https://youtu.be/741SRxcCozU
Freedoms
Yep, in Europe, we may not have the freedom to own guns and kill each other with them; but we do have the freedom to work less hours (for less money) and have six weeks week’s holiday (vacation) a year (by law), rather than just the two weeks that typical American get if they are lucky; and spend those six weeks holidays (vacation) just relaxing, rather than working e.g. sun bathing, sightseeing, touring etc.
The Nanny State
I know that you, and many Americans like you, are appalled by the concept of the ‘Nanny State’ (like we have in the EU and in the UK), you see it as affront to ‘freedom’!
However, having lived the system, I wouldn’t want it any other way; for just a few examples:
• With six weeks paid leave (vacation) being the legal minimum in the UK, during our working life we were able to have typically three good holidays each year e.g. a British holiday for a week in May or June; two weeks in France and Belgium each July and another British holiday for a week in August.
• Both my wife and I were able to take early retirement at the age of 55; I was a civil servant and my wife worked in Admin in the NHS.
• And although we own our own home, and have never sponged off the State during our working lives; now that we are older, and my wife is partially disabled due to a back condition we can now reap the benefits of the UK ‘Social Benefit’ system e.g. claiming disability and carers allowance.
Because of my wife’s back condition she claims PIP (Personal Independence Payment) from the Government; which is currently £4,669 ($6,528) per year; and because my wife claims PIP (disability allowance) it entitles me to claim a ‘carers’ allowance from the Government for looking after my wife, which is £3,504 ($4,899) per year; a total joint income from the Government of $11,427.
So, I’d much rather have the socialist based systems like we have across Europe and in the UK, so that where and when people fall ill and or fall on hard times that they have the security; rather than the hands-off Laissez-faire Governments of the USA, where if and when you fall ill or fall on hard times you either sink or swim on your own, with no one to help you."As we both agree, Europeans and Americans will never understand each other because of our ‘cultural’ differences."
This is so true.
On immigration, I have had relative come to the United States and become US citizens. This has happened on at least three occasions. Each time during the swearing in ceremony, I've seen people from Britain become US citizens. Once there were six people from Britain who became US citizens. One of them explained to me they wanted the benefits of duel citizenship.
All the benefits you explained in your Nanny State section can happen in the United States, you just have to earn them. Many people in my client companies have six weeks vacation, because of how the company has structured their benefit package. Many people here can retire at 55. Many people get disability benefits. Ours is through Social Security benefits.
It may look like Ireland, Norway and Switzerland are far more wealthy than the United States, but none of them are able to support a worldwide military force. Think of how much money the United States would have if it didn't have to worry about protecting countries such as Ireland, Norway and Switzerland? Does anyone think a country like Canada could experience it's economic success if it had to depend on just its own armed forces? NATO takes terrible advantage of the United States with its contribution to a fighting force. Just think of the BILLIONs of dollars the United States could save it Europe could defend itself? Germany does everything it can to keep US military bases in their country. It would be expensive if they had to build up their military forces and maintain them. It's cheaper to have the US military bases there and the US military contribute significantly to the German economies where they are placed. It's the same way all around the world.
And again, for medical care that is not life threatening there is medicade and medicare...they will cover these people without cost to them. Same with medications. If people have an income that is low, and they qualify for one of these programs, they have what you consider "free" healthcare.
In the United States people who get ill or have bad times will get their needs met. There is unemployment insurance, hardship programs, government assistance programs and more.
In Europe the only freedoms you have are those granted to you by the government. That's a huge difference between the United States and Europe. You feel the government rules you, here we think the people rule the government. That is a HUGE difference.
I don't think I would ever want the government to determine what is or what is not acceptable speech. So, I like my freedoms and can't understand Europeans need to control their citizens. Or why European citizens permit their government to control them. It's a cultural thing.Readmikenow, that’s the point; in the USA you have to be in employment, and working for a good Company, to earn any privileges such as generous (six weeks) paid holiday leave, or a good pension so that you can retire at 55. In the USA you are at the mercy of your employer. In the USA not everyone can get good jobs with good employer’s e.g. a waitress isn’t going to be given six weeks paid holiday by her employer, and neither is anyone working in McDonalds, or a stacker in a supermarket; all these people, and tens of millions more across America will be lucky if they get two week’s paid leave.
Whereas, every single worker in Europe (and the UK) automatically get a minimum of six weeks paid holiday (vacation) leave from the 1st day they start employment.
The difference is only the lucky ones who have good jobs with good employers might eventually get 6 weeks paid leave in the USA, while every other working American is a slave to their job. Whereas, in the UK everyone has the same ‘full’ entitlement by law; and are not dependent on the whims of their employer.
Yea, as I said last time, I acknowledge that there are lots of people who want to emigrate to the USA; but as I pointed out, it’s not all one way, there are also tens of thousands of Americans who want to emigrate to Europe and the UK; as per the video links in my last reply.
Yep, many people may get disability benefits in the USA; but how many millions who need it don’t get it; and how generous are those payments e.g. in the UK people whose mobility is severely limited due to their disability, not only get a higher rate of disability that my wife gets, but also get a free ‘new’ car every three years, with the tax, insurance and maintenance all paid for by the Government.
Your road to worry-free motoring starts here! https://youtu.be/UrZ7MQxBSsw
NATO
I can understand your gripe about NATO contributions; particularly as none of the other NATO members (except the UK) pay their full contribution.
However, you can’t use the USA’s spending on NATO as an excuse for the USA not having the highest GDP per capita in the world. Although the USA contributes around 70% of NATO’s funding, that’s only 3.42% of the USA’s GDP; America contributing such a large amount because America is a big economic country with a large population in relation to the other NATO members.
Under the NATO agreement, each country should contribute 2% of their GDP; but in practice, while the USA contributes 3.42%, and the UK 2.13%; the other NATO members contribute an average of just 1.77%.
Interestingly the USA’s Military Budget in 2020 was $778 billion, while the UK’s budget on the NHS was $212 billion; which considering the UK population is just a 5th of the USA means that more money was spent on the NHS per capita in the UK than what was spent on the USA Military per capita.
Another interesting fact is that while the USA Defence is the largest employer in the world; employing 3.2 million people; the NHS is the 5th largest employer in the world, employing 1.7 million people.
While we are on defence; it may well only be a matter of time before the EU has its own army. The EU made the proposal back in 2012 but it was vetoed by the UK; however now that the UK has left the EU, the French President resurrected the proposal for an EU army last year: So who knows?
Yep, I know there is a welfare state in the USA, just as there is in any country; the question is, how desperate do you need to be to get Government benefits; and how generous are those benefits; e.g. why are so many Americans so dependent on food banks; and do Americans get their rent paid by the Government if they are on a low income; and do the Government provide housing for the homeless etc. It’s not a question of whether assistance is there or not; it’s a question of what level of assistance is there and what safety nets are there to reduce the risk of Americans living in abject poverty.
Likewise, I like my Freedoms, and I can’t understand why Americans are so keen to be so dependent on pleasing their employers for all their needs (slave to the work); rather than the freedom to live and work in a balanced work/life environment.
As we both agree: It’s a cultural thing; and I don’t think we will ever agree with each other on a lot of these points, or understand each other. But the main thing is, we are both happy where we live; as it should be.Your area is small and ours is huge. This difference in size contributes to big differences in practical applications for government. The framers knew a workable democratic republic would require that the size of the country be not too small and not too big. This concept is explained in The Federalist Papers.
Our freedom does not mean the same thing to you as to US.Yep, I’ve heard Americans before citing the vastness of the USA as being why it’s not practical to do many things in the USA that’s done in the UK and across Europe. For examples:-
• A sophisticated national passenger rail network system.
• A single National Power Grid for electricity.
• A sophisticated nationwide infrastructure of charging points for electric cars.
I’m sure there are plenty of other examples, but I’ll just focus on the three above mentioned:-
Yes, the UK is a fraction of the size, and more compact, than the USA, therefore making it far easier for the rollout and maintenance of infrastructure. But when you look at the EU (European Union), a Federal Government with 27 Member States, and Associate Members, and see what they have achieved, then there’s no practical reason why the USA couldn’t achieve the same!
Passenger Rail Infrastructure & Network
As passenger rail networks, which are far superior across Europe and in the UK than in the USA, each EU country (Member State) have developed their own rail network within their own State, and subsequently created links with neighbouring rail networks; a modular approach to creating a pan-European passenger rail network; a prime example being Eurostar who operate a passenger train service between London, Paris, Amsterdam and Brussels.
Eurostar unveils brand new train on London to Brussels route (2017): https://youtu.be/mu0d73nHbPk
Pan European National Power (electricity) Grid
Each European country has its own National Power Grid; but with the transfer away from fossil fuel to Renewable Energy those power grids need more resilience to prevent ‘brownouts’ and ‘blackouts’ e.g. over 50% of the UK’s electricity now comes from Renewable Energy, and you can never predict when the wind blows or when the sun shines.
Walney Extension in the UK (the world’s largest offshore wind farm in operation): https://youtu.be/rbnlJOEQ9Hc
Britain is a world leader in off-shore wind turbines, over half the world’s off-shore wind turbines are off the coast of Britain. Conversely, Spain (being hot and sunny) has more solar farms than the rest of Europe put together. Therefore, over the past 9 years, using ‘new technology’ each European country have slowly converted its old national power grid to a ‘smart grid’, and subsequently linked its smart power grid with its neighbours to create a ‘Pan European Smart Power Grid’; the end result being that we can exchange power with Norway (Hydro-power), and Spain (solar power), or any other country in Europe who has surplus power, or who needs power.
The technology used in Europe to create the pan-European power grid has been sold to China (Export) along with the technical expertise (Export), and the supply of part (Goods Export to China); as China develops its own Super Power Grid, based on the European Model.
Electric Cars Infrastructure
I know that Americans complain that you can’t have enough charge points in the USA to make travelling across States by electric car viable e.g. thousands of miles of desert; but China, which has a far larger land mass has taken up the challenge with the aim of banning fossil fuel cars by 2035; the UK will be banning fossil fuel cars as from 2030.
Freedom
Yep, the American concept of Freedom, and the European concept of Freedom, is two different things.Again, as most Europeans, you don't comprehend the vastness of the United States. We have 50 states, as well as five territories. The Great Basin desert in the United States is Larger than all of England.
I don't think there are any real deserts in Western or Eastern Europe.
Good luck to China, I'll wait to see it. Who cares if China bans fossil fuel cars? Over 80 percent of their economy is based on using fossil fuels. They are building coal powered electrical plants at a rapid rate. So any perceived benefit from banning fossil fuel cars will be easily offset by the use of their ever growing coal powered electrical plants and more. China is putting on a show for the gullible.
So, the UK can end all of its dependence on fossil fuels, but the rest of the industrialized world continues to use them. If the motivation by the UK is climate change, whatever they do, will be undone by fossil fuels used in India, China, Canada, Iran as well as Russia and others. So, enjoy your feelings of moral superiority, that is all it will amount to in the end.
So, yeah, Freedom and Independence are difficult for most Europeans to appreciate.Nope, I do comprehend the vastness of the USA: But it’s nothing compared to the vastness of China; and that doesn’t stop China from progressing. It’s not the vastness of the distance, that’s just an excuse to foster defeatism: It’s just that America lacks the ‘will’ for change, held back by the oil companies who doesn’t want to see change; which no doubt is why there is so much disinformation about Renewable Energy in America!
FYI; countries like China and India are ‘Developing Countries’; China is transitioning from an agricultural base economy to an industrial based economy, and as such faces the daunting fact that in order to do so they need to burn fossil fuels as they build and expand their industrial base until such time as they’ve rolled out enough Renewable Energy Technology to replace fossil fuels; and considering the vast size of China and it population, that will take time.
As part of the recognition of the issues China faces, as it transitions to an Industrial based economy, as part of the Paris Agreement on Climate Change, China was given dispensation to build more coal power stations in the short-term to medium term with the aim of phasing them out in the longer term so that China, like the rest of the world, can meet its obligation to be at least 80% dependent on Renewable Energy by 2050.
Besides; when you look at the data on a ‘per capita’ base, you find that China is not the worst offender, but that the USA is one of the worst offenders for burning fossil fuels.
China population is 1.4 billion; USA 328 million; so China is as big to the USA as the USA is to the UK. With that in mind:-
Percentage of world CO2 emissions:-
• China =29.34%
• USA = 13.77%
• UK = 1.02%
However, for CO2 emissions per ton per year, per capita:
• USA = 16 (16th worst nation for carbon emissions per capita in the world)
• China = 8
• UK = 5
So Americans use twice as much ‘fossil fuel’ energy than the Chinese, and over three times as much as Brits.
As regards progression towards Renewable Energy; it’s not just the UK & EU are who are in advance of America’s efforts, China is too.
• EU (European Union): Renewable Energy = 34% of the total energy source
• China: Renewable Energy = 27.32% of the total energy source.
• USA: Renewable Energy = 18.19% of your total energy source.
Getting back to vastness of distance; China Silk Road (Road & Rail) that stretches 7,456 miles across the world show what can be done when a country has a ‘will’ to do so: The rest of the world puts the USA to shame with its antiquated train service e.g. the fastest trains in the world are in China, at speeds up to 200mph; the average trains in Europe are at speeds up to 170mph (125mph in UK); whereas in the USA the average train speed is just 80mph.
The Silk Road train from China to London, England is 7,456 miles:-
• Silk Road' Train from China Reaches London: https://youtu.be/hncgCeLpy3s
European Freedom
During my working life I was free to live a well-balanced work/life balance; not slave to my employer because the employees’ rights are protected by law; and free to take loads of holiday (vacations), and have lots of leisure time to enjoy home/family/ and social life; without the worries of health insurance, because it’s all free in the UK at the point of use. So what more Freedom and Independence than that do I want?"China was given dispensation to build more coal power stations in the short-term to medium term with the aim of phasing them out in the longer term so that China"
This is very ridiculous to me.
You're saying "Okay China, we're facing Global warming, but you can continue to build your coal power plants at a decreasing rate. We don't care about the carbon emissions of those hundreds of new coal power plants will emit for decades...because you're progressing! Why, all those coal powered plants you continue to build and will be in service for generations, are okay....because we need to feel good about you...so as long as you say you'll decrease them in the future...we'll support you. It actually does nothing to help the environment, but it makes us Europeans feel good about ourselves, and that the one thing that matters to us."
The hypocrisy here makes me laugh.
I don't really care about switching over to renewable energy. Fossil fuels provides so much more than just gas or "petro" as you guys say. Oil is needed for everything from building roads, to constructing buildings, to manufacturing and much, much more. I think there is over 832 common uses for oil. If you don't have it, you'll have to buy it. So have all the renewable energy you want, in the big picture, it's meaningless. The only purpose it serves is for Europeans to feel special like they're above everyone else. Keep feeling like that...as the rest of us shrug our shoulders and smile.
In the USA we don't need a fast train. We have the most advanced road systems in the world and the most airports or aeroports as you guys call them...than any other country in the world. Who needs trains?
Again, it comes down to appreciating freedom and independence. Most Americans will willingly drive their car rather than take a train or even a bus. I've driven from one end of the United States to the other at least four times. It takes several days, but, I can decide where I stop to eat, where I stop to sleep, how long I drive, if I want to stop some place and see the sights, I can do it with no problems. That's not possible with a train. A plane gets you there the fastest. I can go from one end of the country to the other in a few hours. Again, who needs trains? You guys in Europe can have your trains.
Oh, you worked for the government, not a private company. I imagine the standards for work, etc. are a little higher for those who work in the private sector. People in the US who work for the government have the same things as you have. What they don't have is the ability to progress as high up the ladder as they want. You can make much more money in the private sector. You can keep YOUR freedom and independence, I'll gladly keep mine.Readmikenow: Yep, it’s obvious that you don’t care about switching over to renewable energy.
Over the past couple of centuries the UK and American built their Industries off the backs of coal & oil; what moral rights do we have to deny developing countries like China & India the same opportunities?
The temporary use of coal while China transitions from an agricultural based economy to an industrialised based economy isn’t for generations; it’s a pragmatic approach. Besides, as Renewable Energy is NOW cheaper than Fossil fuels there’s the added financial incentive to move to Renewable Energy quicker.
And as said previously, Americans uses 16 tons of CO2 per capital per year; which is double the Chinese which is only 8 tons per capita per year, and over three times more wasteful than the UK which is only 5 tons. So whether China burns more coal or not than they used to, they still burn less coal per capital than Americans; so who’s being hypocritical. FYI:-
• The USA has 241 coal power stations
• China has 1,082
Considering that the population of China is 4.27 times larger than the USA, then 4.27 x 241 = 1,029). Therefore, per capita, China has basically has NO MORE Coal Power Stations than the USA; so who is the USA to deny China the right to build their Industrial base; “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander”. Therefore, if you want to be critical of the number of coal power stations China has, then you should also be critical of the number of coal power stations the USA has.
Freedom
Yep, like you, every summer we take to the road and drive south, to southern France (a two day journey). And like you, we decide where to stop and sleep, how long we drive; when to stop to see the sights; and we have no problems. So it’s not just Americans who have the freedom of the road; Europeans take road trips too, you know.
The advantage of the train, is that you don’t have to drive, or wait around at airports; you can just get on a train and get to just about anywhere you wish, with the minimum of fuse; which is why trains are so popular in Europe.
In Europe, people can choose to drive, fly, or go by public transport, including trains; personal freedom of choice. It may surprise you to know that less than 1% of Brits choose to fly, and over 10% of Brits choose to use the train regularly, rather than drive; it’s their personal choice, their freedom to choose.
Actually, in the UK the standards for work for government workers is NOT higher than in the private sector e.g. although government jobs give more security and the pensions were good; the pay was lower, bonuses were rare and perks prohibited e.g. the employment protection laws in the UK apply to all UK workers (private & public sector alike) e.g. 6 weeks paid leave (vacation) for all UK workers; minimum legal wage; limit on maximum working hours; and the little things like paid paternity leave for fathers."Over the past couple of centuries the UK and American built their Industries off the backs of coal & oil; what moral rights do we have to deny developing countries like China & India the same opportunities?"
You can keep your illusion of morals. Your morals are the United States must damage its economy because global warming, but not China and others. Do you realize the effects of global warming don't change because of your illusion of "morals? "
The European chant seems to be "We will do whatever it takes to end global warming, except, if we want to feel morally superior, then we'll give certain countries a pass to pollute, because of our "morals." You guys are funny.
You don't get it do you? The United States is not denying China the chance to build their coal power stations. We encourage it, China buys quite a bit of coal from the United States. So, let them build all they want, they need the coal and we have it.
"The temporary use of coal while China transitions from an agricultural based economy to an industrialised based economy isn’t for generations; it’s a pragmatic approach"
Guess what? All of those coal power stations China has built and is building will be producing Co2 for MANY generations. Again , your claim to be worried about global warming and how you believe it should be handled is too funny. You can't even see your hypocrisy...which is really funny.
Again, in the United States we don't need trains. They really don't get used all that much. We much prefer to drive or fly. Trains take too long.
This thought makes me laugh. China a developing country? Seriously? The have the second largest economy in the world. They have a space program that is more advanced that the one in Europe...and you claim they're a developing nation? For those of us who are in touch with reality, know this statement is funny. No, China is NOT a developing nation. They've developed.
Actually, I've talked to people in the UK as I've been there several times. Many of them seem to believe government workers have it much easier than those in the public sector. I've talked to business owners who had some very negative things to say about government workers. It's the same in the United States...so I wasn't surprised.
Readmikenow, reference your comments:-
“I don't really care about switching over to renewable energy. Fossil fuels provide so much more than just gas or "petro" as you guys say. Oil is needed for everything from building roads, to constructing buildings, to manufacturing and much, much more. I think there is over 832 common uses for oil.”
It shows the ignorance of Americans, who are so insular in Americanism that they are oblivious to what’s happening in the world around them; and don’t recognise the environmental disaster that manmade ‘Climate Change’ is causing.
FYI: Oil is not irreplaceable; for all the oil based bi-products e.g. plastics, there are alternatives. And besides, plastic itself has become an environmental hazard; so the less plastics we use the better.
For example, some of the best eco-friendly alternatives to plastics include:-
• Stainless steel.
• Glass.
• Natural fibre.
• Wood.
• Bamboo.
• Pottery.
• Ceramics.
• Paper.
• Cardboard.
• Bio-Plastics e.g. plastics made from vegetable oil rather than petroleum (which Americans call gas!).
The Renewable Energy Sector is worth $trillions. While the USA buries it head in the sand; European countries, China, Israel, and other countries around the world are cashing in on the investment in Renewable Energy; creating jobs, wealth and security. Even SHELL, UK Oil Company is investing heavily in Renewable Energy.Arthur, Mike,
i have been following your dispute for some time now with a smile. Is it really about America not needing trains and old Europe trying to be moraly superior?
This whole energy issue can be looked at from a pure financial standpoint. And to do so we should look at the dynamics of development.
Renewable energy is still marginal (single digit percentage) in world energy consumption. But if we look at developed countries, the share is increasing at high rates.
From 2009 to 2019:
USA: 58%
World: 71%
China: 95%
Germany: 126%
The numbers are from https://ourworldindata.org/energy-mix. Primary energy production and consumption.
A may be seen, the US lags behind, even for world standards, not to mention peer developed economies. For electricity production the dynamics is even more compelling. Some countries now have 50 plus renewables for electricity power generation.
So - if i were to make an investment decision - which energy industry is more promising: Conventional (fossile) or renewable energy? The decision is clear.
Definitely not for coal, which had stagnation over the past decade.
Has nothing to do with morals or freedom or independence. Just follow the money."Has nothing to do with morals or freedom or independence. Just follow the money."
Bingo! I completely agree with you on this point.Square Miles Germany --- about 357,021 square kilometers (137,847 square miles), the country is slightly smaller than the USA's state of Montana
Population - 83.02 million
Square miles of UK -- 93,628 mi²
Population -- 66.65 million
Square miles USA -- 3.797 million mi²
population -- 340 million
These stats should be applied when looking at energy consumption. If we only needed to cut energy consumption in even a couple of our larger states such as New York or California, this would be an easy task.
America is a huge country with a large population. Germany is a small country with a small population. This certainly makes it easier to switch to renewable energy.
Top 10 polluters
China, with more than 10,065 million tons of CO2 released. Population 1.398 billion
United States, with 5,416 million tons of CO2. Population 340 million
India, with 2,654 million tons of CO2. --- Population 1.366 billion
Russia, with 1,711 million tons of CO2. --- Population 144.4 million
Japan, 1,162 million tons of CO2. ---- Population 126.3 million
Germany, 759 million tons of CO2. --- Population 83.02 million
Iran, 720 million tons of CO2. ---- Population 82.91 million
There is a true correlation between population and pollution.Just an observation, but the picture changes considerably when pollution per capita is used rather than per country.
That is ok. CO2 footprint per capita is a good way to compare.
An even better way is CO2 footprint per GDP. This shows how much you hurt environment while making your economy run.
And the best is to have the CO2 footprint per GDP adjusted with trade balance. Because manufacturing more stuff than you need inside your economy drives up CO2 footprint in the producing country and lowers the CO2 footprint in the importing country. Having said this, per se the factories of the world (China, Korea, EU) have a higher CO2 per GDP footprint than consuming countries like the USA or UK.
Actually i did´t want to dig down into this kind of comparisons. My point was: Follow the money and you will find out that in our world of today and tomorrow it pays off to pollute less.
Nathan,
Guess what? There are OVER 6,000 necessary products made from oil.
https://whgbetc.com/petro-products.pdf
Better get to work if you're going to find a way to replace all 6,000.
If climate change is or is not manmade is a topic of debate all around the world. Climate change has happened on the planet earth many times before. It happened before there was any human industry.
https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/clim … efore.html
I think its the foolishness of people who believe they can control the climate. Seriously? You believe humans can control the climate? No, there's not been one prediction those on the climate warming alarmists have made that has come true. Why are they always wrong?
https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-yea … edictions/
Like Chriss57 has said, and it's true, follow the money.
Readmikenow:-
Poetic Justice
Contrary to your belief, the USA is self-harming because of its dismissive attitudes towards the environmental harm of ‘Climate Change’ e.g. more extreme weather, which is only set to get worse, such as more frequent, and more violent hurricanes in the south, more artic winters in the north, more droughts and floods; not to mention the havoc rising sea levels will cause.
Perception vs Reality
#1: FYI China’s use of coal peaked in 2013, and while it accounted for 80% of their electricity in 2010, it now only accounts for 57.7% of their electricity; so in spite of your perception, China (like most of the rest of the world) is making progress towards Renewable Energy instead of fossil fuels.
#2: FYI: just 40 years ago over 80 of Chinese where rural farmers; now 63.89 of Chinese have urbanised. Over a third of Chinese still live in a more primitive agricultural life: So contrary to your beliefs, China still has a long way to before their as Industrialised as the USA & Europe.
#3: As you seem to keep ignoring; CO2 production per capita is twice as much in the USA than it is in China.
#4: You don’t appreciate trains because you’ve got such a crappy system in the USA e.g. slow trains, poor infrastructure and poor service.
If I want a day out in London I could fly to London, drive, take a coach or catch a train. By the time I got to the airport, booked in, and got on the plane, and then disembarked at the other end, I could already be in London by train (Bristol to London, 130 miles) takes 1hr & 20 minutes by train; or over two hours by car.
In Britain trains don’t just go to the cities and towns, they also reach into all the main villages; hence the popularity of trains, when you can just pop on them and get to even the remotest parts of the country with little hassle.
Berney Arms - Least Used Station in Britain (2019/20): https://youtu.be/jB7JOkvf0Es
The statistics shows that Berney Arms in Norfolk only had 42 passengers last year; making it the new least used station in the whole of Britain.
Britain’s Busiest Railway Station: https://youtu.be/ccG2nKn-zgs
#4: It amazes me how some Americans are so arrogant that they think they know the local culture in the UK better than people who live here do; even though you live thousands of miles away, across the pond! Your perception of government workers in the UK isn’t based on personal experience; it’s based on a false perception.Readmikenow; do you take me a fool? That list of yours, which claims that there are 6,000 items made from petroleum only lists 280, is from a dubious source and is misleading e.g. strongly suggesting that the products listed can only be made from petroleum; which isn’t true.
For example, items from the list claiming they are made from petroleum include:-
• Boats - which can be made from wood and iron.
• Insecticides – I’m an organic gardener, so none of my insecticides are made from insecticides.
• Upholstery – upholstery can be made from natural fibres and materials e.g. wool, cotton, leather.
• Dresses – Likewise, dresses are often made from cotton, not oil.
I could go on, but the list is just a sham…….
Readmikenow; you obviously didn’t even bother reading the contents of the 2nd link you included, which is contrary to the title e.g. the title ‘Climate has Changed Before’ was just playing ‘devil’s advocate’. If you’d actually read the article you will have learned that the ACS (American Chemical Society) used ice cores to compare the current ‘global warming’ with climate change over the past 1 million years.
And to quote from the article; they say:-
“This change is both far outside the range of natural variation for at least the last million years and enormously faster than the natural processes represented in the ice core data. This rapid infusion of carbon dioxide in unprecedented amounts can change the Earth’s climate in ways that are different from the past.”
Readmikenow; your last link is to an organisation whose goal is to discredit ‘climate change’; it’s a Conservative think tanks funded to overturn environmentalism; so the link is no more than American Political propaganda in support of ‘climate change denial’.
Readmikenow; as Chris says, follow the money. If you did, you’d know that NOW Renewable Energy is more profitable than oil & coal; that’s one reason why SHELL (a UK Oil Company) now actively invests in, supports and promotes Renewable Energy.
UK Shell Oil Climate Ambition: https://youtu.be/UQ2A1F05j38
Arthur (Nathanville)Nathan,
"Boats - which can be made from wood and iron" Sure, and how is the iron used for the boats manufactured? Guess what fuels the manufacturing process? Ever been to a steel plant that produces iron? Guess what they use to run their machinery? I think it's called oil. Guess what? The world doesn't really operate its international shipping with wooden boats.
Insecticides – I’m an organic gardener, so none of my insecticides are made from insecticides. - Well, good for you, but, insecticides on a large level for farming are necessary. They are also used in eliminating unwanted insect infestations in homes and buildings around all major cities. See, the world is a bit bigger and more complicated than just your garden. Trust me, it is more vast.
Upholstery and dresses? Guess what is used in the manufacturing process? I think it's called oil. You can tell me what it can be made from and I'm going to tell you what they are made from...and oil is an essential part of it.
Yeah, it's complicated.
"Conservative think tank"...yes. Just like those who think they are so brilliant they can control the environment...which is ridicuolous...it is an opinion based on individual research. You follow your opinions and I'll follow mine. I just think believing humans can control the environment. Do you know how much natural carbon it put into the air by nature?
Global warming is actually something that occurs in nature with or without mankind.
https://www.climate.gov/news-features/c … ut-history
"Renewable Energy is more profitable than oil & coal"
Have to disagree with that one. Good for the UK shell oil climate ambition, but it is just a novelty for them. It makes people feel good but isn't realistic.
Readmikenow, you’re very condescending because you think I’m not smart, because I’m a retired government official; let me remind you what you previously said, to quote:-
“As I said before, we know those who work in government are NOT the wizards of smart.”
If you only knew how well academically qualified I am……
Anyway……
Steel Production
Actually, steel works don’t use oil; FYI its coking coal, not oil.
However, if you’d been keeping up with world events you would know that now, about one-quarter of the world’s steel is produced by the electric-arc method, using electricity, and NOT coal.
Production of steel in the UK using electricity instead of coal became operational in Feb 2018. Just one electric arc furnace has a capacity of 400,000 metric tons of steel per year; using electricity instead of coal the UK currently has the capacity to produce more than 1.2 million metric tons of steel per year.
Insecticides
Yep, your attitude is very American. FYI a lot of American food is banned in the UK, EU and in other countries around the world because your own Chemical Industry, who have the politicians in their pockets, promote the use of chemicals in American food production.
It’s a sad fact that in the USA politicians are too dependent on the Industrial bosses, including in the chemical industry, for their campaign money!
The American food industry uses over 1,000 chemicals that are banned in the UK and across Europe e.g. the American use of Diphenylamine to preserve apples.
Europe BANS Cancer-Causing American Apples (2014): https://youtu.be/oEh1IbOKRBo
Unlike the USA, in recent years (following public awareness campaigns and public pressure on the Government and food manufacturers) all food manufacturers in the UK have ceased to use artificial colouring, flavouring and preservatives. And FYI, organic farming is far more popular across Europe and in Britain. The latest data shows that 64% of the British consumers regularly buy organic food. Organic farming is becoming big business in the UK:-
Why Convert To Organic Farming? https://youtu.be/w1af91M24Ig
Manufacturing of Natural Fibre Cloths & Clothes
Reference your comment, to quote:-
“Upholstery and dresses? Guess what is used in the manufacturing process? I think it’s called oil. You can tell me what it can be made from and I'm going to tell you what they are made from...and oil is an essential part of it.”
You tell me where oil is used in cotton production, if you can?
FYI as with steel production, oil is NOT used: - See link below:-
https://www.toyota-industries.com/produ … e/process/
Anthropogenic Climate Change
Again, with the link you provided on global warming, you obviously didn’t read the article very closely; because if you had you’d noticed the links in the top paragraph, the first of which reinforces man involvement in global warming.
The article in your link is just basic scientific knowledge on how climate changes over time (the different causes over time). However, it links to two further related articles on the same subject, where the first link leads to an article that compares the current global warming with historic events; and, to quote from that article:-
“Natural variability can explain much of the temperature variation since the end of the last ice age, resulting from factors such as changes in the tilt of the Earth's axis. Over the past century, though, global average temperatures have "risen from near the coldest to the warmest levels" ….. “Over this period [since the Industrial Revolution], emissions of heat-trapping gases from human activities have increased.”
“The recent increase in global average temperature [since the start of the Industrial Revolution) is so abrupt compared to the rest of the time period that when the scientists make a graph of the data, the end of the line is nearly vertical.”
“….global average temperature has remained relatively stable and low compared to earlier hothouse conditions in our planet's history. Now, [since the Industrial Revolution] temperature is among the highest experienced not only in the “recent” past—the past 11,000 years or so, during which modern human civilization developed—but also probably for a much longer period.”
Renewable Energy vs Fossil Fuels
FYI it’s a fact that Renewable Energy is now cheaper than fossil fuels; something many Americans are ignorant of:-
Thanks to R&D and mass production (economies of scale) in China, Solar energy has been cheaper than fossil fuels in more than 30 countries since 2016; and since 2017, in two thirds of the world Solar and Wind Energy Are Now Cheaper than Fossil Fuels e.g. thanks to R&D and mass production (economies of scale) of wind turbines in a number of European countries, including the UK.
Why is offshore wind suddenly so cheap in the UK? https://youtu.be/X_h07B34Iw8
Renewable Energy is the technological industry of the future; and America is just being left behind, and losing out on the long term investment opportunities of R&D.“Anthropogenic Climate Change”
As I said before, good luck on trying to control the Earth's climate. And you think Americans are arrogant. You guys are leading the way in researching how to do away with cow farts, so, I guess that's a step in the right direction for controlling the Earth's climate. How are you going to do away with the farts of all the wild animals? Just a question. In Africa, they have animal herds that number in the tens of thousands. How are you guys going to stop them from farting? What are your plans to stop all the natural carbon emissions? You going to stop volcanoes from erupting? Good luck.
"Actually, steel works don’t use oil; FYI its coking coal, not oil."
Well, I guess you don't know much about the production of steel. I grew up around steel plants. I have friends who have worked in the steel industry their entire lives. Maybe you need to realize I'm referring to the production process. That is, turning iron and ore into steel. This involves something called a blast furnace To run these blasts furnaces requires quite a bit of oil. The entire process requires quite a bit of oil and oil byproducts. Electric arc method is only used for melting down scrap steel. That is a big difference. Even with the electric arc method, oil is used to make the steel for the machines, that are lubricated with oil byproducts, that are taken to market with vehicles that run on gas and have oil, etc. etc. Trust me, I've been to more than one steel plant.
Insecticides
Ban all the foods you want from the United States. Other countries around the world will buy what you don't, so, it's no big deal. Europe is not the only market in the world for apples.
“You tell me where oil is used in cotton production, if you can?”
Sure, look at all of those machines being used. What do you think lubricates them? I would bet you than many of those machines operate on oil. Everything from the steel used to make the machines, to the power to run them, to the vehicles used to take the end product to market, to the vehicles used for people to got to and from the manufacturing plant all require oil or a byproduct of oil. Then you think of all the packaging, printing of labels and more. It ALL takes oil or a byproduct of oil. That's reality.
The manufacturing process of any product is quite involved.
“Renewable Energy”
Have your renewable energy. Again, I don't care if wind is cheap in the UK. I'm glad it's working out for you. The energy needs in the United States are too massive. Again, we have the largest economy in the world. It won't even come close to meeting our energy needs. Renewable energy is done on a small scale and it is promoted. But, realistically, it won't meet our needs. If there comes a time when the United States could make renewable energy profitable for us, we will become a leader in the industry.
So, I'm glad you feel good about Europe and hampering its economy to feeling good they may be doing something about global warming. It seems your need to feel morally superior is being met. I'm even okay with you giving into China because of some warped reasoning that the country with the second largest economy in the world is a developing nation. You do know it is now possible for this communist country economically dominate Europe. I think you did had a leader named Neville Chamberlain who just didn't seem able to recognize threats from a nearby nation.
But, it isn't happening in the United States. We do have our weak-minded and emotionally needy liberals who would destroy our country. But there are enough real Americans to stand up against them. There always has been and always will be.
Readmikenow;
Anthropogenic Climate Change
Your comments show your ignorance on the subject; which for a hard-right-wing Republican who’s in denial of ‘Anthropogenic Climate Change’ is no great surprise!
FYI, no one is suggesting we try to stop any natural carbon emissions, let alone ‘all’ (as you suggest). The aim is to reduce or off-set excessive manmade carbon emissions to restore a more natural balance; eco-system.
The earth is quite capable of natural ‘carbon capture’ on a large scale e.g. the forests and sea. But excessive amounts of greenhouse gases released into the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels is causing global warming; with all the consequences, not just the more extreme weather (hurricanes, heatwaves, droughts and floods etc., but also the melting of the ice caps and gradual rise in sea levels.
As regards gases released by animals; the emphasis is on cows because they are one of the main contributors to global greenhouse gases. The reason beef and dairy cattle are the focus is because they are ruminants e.g. they have four stomachs, and part of their digestive system results the high production of methane gas. And FYI cows belch more methane from their mouths than they expel through their waste.
30% of methane is from natural sources, 40% from livestock (mainly cows) and 30% from other sources.
16% of all ‘Anthropogenic Greenhouse Gas Emissions’ is methane, and methane is about 30 times more potent as a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide; so the contribution the cows make to climate change is significant.
However, if you paid any attention to what is actually being asked: No one is asking people to give up eating meat, the advice is to reduce you consumption of meat; a small ask, as most people over eat anyway.
Steel Production
Well, if you grew up around steel plants that used oil powered furnaces, and they still use oil powered furnaces, then as Chris surmised, the USA is using old an inefficient technology.
FYI: Around the world, all NEW steel furnaces are either coal or electric. If you believe otherwise then produce some valid evidence that most steel works furnaces around the world these days are not coal or electric.
Here’s a link to the whole steel production process from start to finish, including the mining of the iron ore, demonstrating both the coal and the electric furnaces; and nowhere is there any mention of oil: https://corporate.arcelormittal.com/abo … king-steel
Guess what:-
• Outside of the USA there’s a wide supply of non-petroleum based lubricants; even for industrial use; including ‘Mobile’& ‘Lubrizol’ corporations environmental friendly lubricants. Such products have become common place across Europe since the 1980s, but less in the USA!
Yep, in the USA, vehicles that run on ‘gas and have oil’, used for transpiration; by ‘gas’ I assume you mean petroleum? Yep, no so much in Europe and other parts of the world.
FYI the UK, like most of Europe, and China, are transitioning away from fossil fuel transportation to transportation that’s powered by clean, green, renewable energy:-
In Bristol (where I live), virtually all our city buses now run on renewable energy made from Bristol’s sewage Waste and domestic food waste.
Bristol bio-methane gas-powered bus refuelling station opens (2019): https://youtu.be/QV4VEprPfos
Other cities, such as Aberdeen, Scotland are converting all their buses and Lorries to run on ‘Green Hydrogen’.
Aberdeen, Scotland's Hydrogen Strategy - Leading the UK in H2: https://youtu.be/XBJAM1epr5c
Likewise, although the UK started to phase out diesel trains, in favour of electric trains; now, since 2019 the emphasis is on converting to green hydrogen trains:
The UK's first Hydrogen train (2019): https://youtu.be/geATz4pdCSg
Supply Chains
When I asked you to tell me where oil is used in cotton production, your response is to cite:-
• The machinery,
• The lubricants used by the machinery,
• The steel used to make the machines.
• The power to run the machines.
• Transportation at all stages e.g. raw material, goods in/out, to wholesaler, to retailer, and end customer.
• Packaging, printing and labelling etc.
You claim all the above either use oil or are made from oil by-products; you even go as far as claiming, in your opinion that most of the machinery in the factories making cotton products will run on oil.
You then state that the manufacturing process of any product is quite involved.
Well for your information, I am fully aware of the general principles of manufacturing processes and the ‘supply chains’; FYI economics and economic history was just two of the subjects I had to study and pass exams in, on a two year course at College, to obtain the necessary qualifications to help fast-track promotion to middle management.
Looking at each point you raise:-
• The machinery, these days are almost all electric.
• Thus very little lubricants are needed in electric motors, and as previously mentioned there are plenty of non-petroleum based lubricants to choose from anyway.
• The steel used to make the machines: Yep, that is part of the carbon footprint, but, as mentioned above, that’s mainly coal or electric, not oil.
• The power to run the machines: An electric machine uses electricity, not oil.
• Transportation at all stages e.g. raw material, goods in/out, to wholesaler, to retailer, and end customer. Yep, all part of the carbon footprint; but with fossil fuels being phased out for transportation, and being replaced by electric and green gas fuels in Europe, China and other countries across the world, that carbon footprint is rapidly shrinking.
• Packaging, printing and labelling etc. Actually, not all inks are made with petroleum; FYI eco-inks are made using organic ingredients.
This brings us onto ‘Carbon Footprints’; which can be a complex calculation, but one that is becoming increasingly important in the UK, as the UK moves ever closer to becoming net carbon neutral. For examples, these days, British Companies put greater emphases on resourcing locally, specifically to reduce their ‘carbon footprint’. Even the hospital where I spent three weeks earlier this year sources 94% of its food from local growers and producers as part of its policy to reduce its impact on the environment (lower carbon footprint).
Renewable Energy
Actually, China is far bigger than the USA, with a population four time the size of the USA; and China is rising to the challenge, so your excuse that the USA is too massive is a lame excuse.
• China: Renewable Energy = 27.32% of their total energy source.
• USA: Renewable Energy = 18.19% of your total energy source.
And FYI, with the antiquated grids you have in the USA with the constant bane of brown outs and burn outs, yes you would have a massive problem in the USA in trying to modernise to Renewable Energy. But with the newer upgraded Smart Grids across Europe (technology which is also an ‘Export’ from Europe to China) Renewable Energy is not done on a small scale. Some of the Renewable Energy Projects in China and across Europe dwarfs the USA efforts in energy production.
Three Gorges Dam in China: The World's Most Powerful Dam: https://youtu.be/lsiN_AckQgE
Where are the world's largest offshore wind farms? https://youtu.be/3hRA3Fmgr6s
And no, the USA will not become a world leader in the Renewable Energy Industry, if and when America realises that Renewable Energy is the future; those niches in the market have already been claimed by China (solar power) and European Countries e.g. UK’s off shore wind turbines, and Scotland’s commercial development of ‘green hydrogen’ technology etc.
Green hydrogen set for Port of Nigg, Scotland: https://youtu.be/4zGvL0rGVn0'But excessive amounts of greenhouse gases released into the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels is causing global warming;'
Still a topic of hot debate. Some scientists believe it is natural, others believe it is manmade. There is not just ONE theory on it. And, in the realm of science, it is just a theory.
Well, I can tell you, by speaking with my friends in the steel industry, industrial lubricant that is NOT petroleum based is not cost effective AND it doesn't perform as well as petroleum-based lubricants. There's the problem, it doesn't do as well.
Guess what? Machinery these days used in manufacturing processes are NOT all run by electricity. IT depends on the manufacturing process.
Again, the non-petroleum based products either don't perform as well as the petroleum-based products or are not cost effective.
'I am fully aware of the general principles of manufacturing processes and the ‘supply chains’; FYI economics and economic history was just two of the subjects I had to study and pass exams in, on a two year course at College, to obtain the necessary qualifications to help fast-track promotion to middle management.'
Ever started your own business and grow it? When that happens, then come talk to me. I have a little more than book experience.
Readmikenow, what are you going to do when your precious oil runs out; already 50% of your oil comes from fracking, and 67% of your gas?
Obviously you don’t care about the environments impact that fracking causes e.g. earthquakes and contaminated drinking water.
Fracking has been banned in Scotland by the Scottish Government (Socialists); and made commercially non-viable in Britain by the UK Government (Conservatives) imposition of strict ‘Environmental safe’ Regulations, which bankrupted the one and only Company that tried to frack in the UK.
UK Government halts fracking amid earthquake fears: https://youtu.be/daPTa8Oi5gYGlad than banning fracking works for you. We have enough oil we can sell it to Europe.
https://www.cmegroup.com/education/arti … urope.html
Also, doesn't look like we may not run out of fossil fuels.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/enviro … out-of-oil
Readmikenow, nope, it’s no longer a topic of hot debate (hasn’t been for years); Anthropogenic Climate Change is now well accepted by the world scientific community. If you remember, the two links you tried to pass off as evidence to the contrary both said the opposite to what you thought they said.
Industry
You finally acknowledge that there are alternatives to petroleum based products.
Yep, as I stated in my last reply, non-petroleum based lubricants are not so widely available in the USA; not because they are any less effective, but because America is slow to adapt and modernise e.g. old heavy polluting and less efficient machinery than the rest of the Industrialised world. So I’m not surprised if your mates in the American steel industry have a typical Republican anti-environmental attitude towards such products.
The same as you don’t care about the earthquakes and contamination of drinking water that fracking causes, nor care about the plastic pollution in the sea.
Yep, I’m not saying that all modern machinery in industry is always electric: It was you who were trying to argue that all machinery is oil powered; whereas I was pointing out that most modern machinery in factories is electric.
That’s your opinion that non-petroleum based products either don’t perform as well, or are not as cost effective as petroleum based products. Whereas I would argue that in a lot of cases natural products are superior in many cases; for example I far prefer a cotton shirt to the nylon shirt anytime.
Skill Sets
I in fact do have more than just book experience in business; economics and economic history were just two of 7 subjects that I had to pass my exams in after two years of study to get my qualification in Business Administration; the other subjects being Business Accounts; General Principles of English Law; Business Law; Statistics; and English. In economics we studied microeconomics in the 1st year and macroeconomics in the 2nd year.
And it wasn’t just all academic; those learned skills were applied in my profession; and for the last five years of my career I was involved with ‘Project Management’ after qualifying by studying and passing the exams in Prince 2 (Project Management).
What is PRINCE2? (in 100 seconds): https://youtu.be/61RnrsWQE7A
So don’t tell me I’m not qualified to understand economics.
Bottomless Pit?
Sorry Readmikenow, but oil is not a bottomless pit, as your link suggests; there is a finite amount, and although the actual amount may be much more than known reserves, no one knows how much there is or how long it will last.
The only certainty, is that it is getting harder, and harder to extract the oil, and more expensive; while Renewable Energy is getting cheaper and cheaper.
In fact your 2nd link (to an American Science Magazine) is to an article that’s over 20 years old (published in 1999), and if you compare it with their more recent article (published Feb of this year) you’ll see that their tune is less optimistic now that it was 20 years ago; to quote from the magazines recent article:-
“The issue is mostly cost. Some quantities of oil are just very expensive to recover….”, “As the price of oil goes down, it becomes less attractive to produce.”……“How much oil there is will depend on the price, but also how much demand there is will depend on the price,”, “The signs of decreasing demand have begun to appear in the past few years,”
A more up to date version of the article that you gave a link to:
https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet … out-of-oil
That brings us onto your 1st link. FYI Oil consumption in the UK peaked in 1973 when it reached 2,228.136 Barrels a Day, and has been declining since e.g. down from 1,610.226 Barrels a Day in 2017 to 1,544.783 in 2019 (latest full figures).
It’s a similar pattern in the EU e.g. the EU’s consumption of oil reached its peak in 1980 at 724 Mtoe (mega tonnes of oil per year); and demand has been on the decline since; currently 587 Mtoe in 2015, with a further drop to 580 Mtoe in 2020.
And what happens to your USA Oil Export Market when the demand for oil drops off in the EU & UK over the next decade as the ban on fossil fuel cars comes into force."And what happens to your USA Oil Export Market when the demand for oil drops off in the EU & UK over the next decade as the ban on fossil fuel cars comes into force."
Guess what? The EU and UK are simply one market. Since you've given China the okay to continue building coal fired plants...we'll have a huge market there as well as India and many other nations. It' not a problem.
"So don’t tell me I’m not qualified to understand economics."
You may understand economics, but that doesn't mean you understand what is involved with starting and running a business. It's a lot different than looking at books.
It requires investment of your time, effort and money. It's a risk. A risk that can come with great rewards or financial disaster. It's up to the individual to make their business a success. So, there is much more to it that simply "economics."
Your views remind me of the views held by the bureaucrats in the United States. The US government bureaucrats have their safe job, make their safe income, and think because they work for the government they are so smart. They can't think beyond what the government tells them to think.
When they try to make decisions in the real world, they are usually quite wrong.
"American steel industry have a typical Republican anti-environmental attitude towards such products."
See, this is ridiculous to me. They're businessmen trying to turn a profit. They work hard to keep people employed and able to pay all of their taxes. Trust me, they pay an incredible amount of taxes. They don't have the benefit of government help. If there is a product that is cost-effective and helps their company turn a profit, they would use it. That's what it's like in the real world when you don't need he government trying to make all your decisions for you. Again, it comes down to freedom and independence.I want those bureaucrats there to make sure that your incredible entrepreneurs "smart people" don't get away throwing industrial pollutants into my water supply with impunity, after all it saves them money.
In my world, nobody just gets to do what they want without being held accountable, that's my stand.
Well, Mike, Since you seem to know so much about the risks taken by these brilliant entrepreneurs, have you ever owned and ran your own business?More than one. I've started businesses and been partners in business start-ups. All of them got to a certain level of success and I sold them or sold my stake in them. Everything from a book warehouse business, to storage facilities, restaurant and more. Anyone who has done this knows it is not easy.
Readmikenow, using your favourite expression “guess what”; China is set to ban fossil fuel cars by 2035; and plan to reach their peak in carbon emissions by 2030, after which they will move rapidly towards reducing their carbon emission by at least 80% by 2050. So “guess what”, China’s demand for coal and oil will diminish over time.
And for your information; there isn’t hardly a country outside the USA who isn’t aiming to reduce their net carbon emissions significantly by 2050.
Yes I do understand economics, and you don’t need a great understanding of economics to run a business; they are two different ‘skill sets’; but I am not completely oblivious to what it takes to run a business, our son is a self-employed freelance professional photographer, and both I and my wife do give him help and advice on the Administrative side because of our professional skills and experience in that area.
Yep, and what you describe for your ‘Freedom and Independence’ is industry operating without Regulations e.g. no regard to the environment, health or safety; the only thing that interests you is ‘Profit’ (Greed).
Whereas in Europe, and the UK, Industry is regulated, so its impact on the environment is less damaging, and it’s less polluting and safer than the sort of Industry you supports.
No thanks, I do not want an Industry that is free to wreck the environment. I’d much rather a have cleaner and greener environment, than live in your world (your neck of the woods).
This is how ’Modern’ manufacturing is done in Europe:- https://youtu.be/8NXLKRW1IEU
100 off-shore wind turbines installed in 100 days (and old video form 2012, but shows the efficiency of modern industry in Europe; and also demonstrates the fast pace that wind farms are being created, not just in Europe but China too): https://youtu.be/igN4jpRx1oI"China is set to ban fossil fuel cars by 2035; and plan to reach their peak in carbon emissions by 2030, after which they will move rapidly towards reducing their carbon emission by at least 80% by 2050. So “guess what”, China’s demand for coal and oil will diminish over time."
And you believe this? Okay, you believe this. I suppose you aren't aware of China backing away from its promises when it suits them. They've done this many times with many countries like the US and Japan. But, hey, I guess you believe they will treat you different. Good luck with that.
"our son is a self-employed freelance professional photographer, and both I and my wife do give him help and advice on the Administrative side because of our professional skills and experience in that area."
Okay, then, if your son is a self-employed freelance professional photographer, there is nothing I can add. You obviously possess knowledge on the same level of any business titan.
"Yep, and what you describe for your ‘Freedom and Independence’ is industry operating without Regulations e.g. no regard to the environment, health or safety; the only thing that interests you is ‘Profit’ (Greed). "
Well, with your extensive knowledge of business, I can't say anything. Even industries in the US don't want to operate without Regulations. We have an organization called the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and we must follow their regulations or it can get expensive. They have even shut companies down for not following environmental regulations.
See, some people don't think of profit as greed. Profit is how a business can measure its success. Most businesses put large portions of their profit back into their business so they can hire more workers and pay more taxes as well as expand their services. I may not have your extensive business experience, but the ones I have been associated with do such things. See, when you start a business you are taking a huge risk, so when you get a profit from your skills and abilities, it is quite deserved. It's not greed, it is payment for hard work, sacrifice and risk taking.
I don't care about modern manufacturing in the UK and Europe. It is dwarfed by China, India and others. They aren't even close. Feel good about yourselves, you are not as competitive with the rest of the industrialized world as you believe.
Enjoy your wind farms. I hope it all works out well for you.
Readmikenow,
CHINA
You seem to be oblivious of the fast pace that China is rolling out its Renewable Energy infrastructure and technology. FYI, last year China installed more wind turbines than the whole of the rest of the world put together.
Don’t forget that thanks to the R&D and the economics of mass production that Renewable Energy is now cheaper than fossil fuel for many countries around the world, including China; so continuing with switching to Renewables not only make economic sense, but it also helps to combat the pollution (smog) that has blighted China cities.
Although China currently has the world's largest installed capacity of hydro, solar and wind power, its energy needs are so large that in 2019, renewable sources provided 26% of its electricity generation; compared to 17% in the U.S.A. In 2020 China’s renewable Energy increased to 27.32%.
• In 2008 17.66% of China’s Energy came from Renewable Energy.
• In 2020 that had increased to 27.32%.
• China Solar Power production in 2012 was just 6,344 GWh; in 2020 it was a massive 261,100 GWh
• China Wind Power production in 2012 was just 95,978 GWh; in 2020 it was a massive 466,500 GWh
• China Hydro Power production in 2012 was just 872,107 GWh; in 2020 it was a massive 1355,200 GWh
REGULATED STANDARDS
Yeah right; you telling me that Regulated Standards in the USA are as good as they are in Europe; I don’t think so. You only have to look at the USA’s low food standards to appreciate that.
You know as well as I do that it’s the big industrialists in the USA who finances politicians in their election campaigns; with the consequence that the politicians are in the pockets of industry; so in comparison to European and UK Regulations the Regulations of the EPA is weak.
And as I’ve said before, you don’t seem to have any care for the damage Industry does to the environment e.g. earthquakes and contaminated water from fracking, and all the plastics that ends up in the sea.
Yep, I know that generally, businesses in Europe/UK are not driven by greed, in fact not-for-profit co-operatives are common over hear; but it’s refreshing to hear an American be dismissive of greed as a driving force in American enterprise!Nathan,
May all your dreams in life come true.
You've not change my views on anything. I'm not impressed with your responses.
They are an never-ending stream of believing just what you're told. You've not provided a single original thought or idea.
So, I'm bored and am ending my participation in this conversation. You are obviously what we call in the US "Last Word Freak" so, say what you want. I'm too unimpressed to respond.
Ditto Readmikenow, we have opposing views and nothing is going to change that: You are a typical stereotype white meat eating Christian, middle class, Republican American; need I say more…….
You didn’t provide any convincing evidence to back up your claims, so you can’t expect to persuade people to support your out-dated views e.g. the two articles you gave links to prove that the scientific community is split on the issue of climate change turned out to say the opposite to what you thought they said; and although I asked you several times to provide evidence to support your claim that the majority of modern industrial machinery run on oil rather than electricity, you never did.
And although I’ve stated several times that in my opinion you don’t seem to have any care for the damage Industry does to the environment e.g. earthquakes and contaminated water from fracking, and all the plastics that ends up in the sea; you’ve made no attempt to deny this, so I assume that you truly don’t care about the environment and the damage that is being done the sort of heavy polluting Industry that you support.
Readmike, this old link that you provided is very helpful in analyzing the two sides of the Atlantic.
It is about priorities - freedom vs fairness. So far so good.
I would like to add my personal 2 cents to this philosphy game, my personal observations:
Freedom: Yes, very important. But freedom to make right choices is always only benefitting the upper 5 to 10% of a population in any given country. It does not matter, the USA, Europe, the Scandinavian brand of Europe, China, Russia, Japan, you name it, in all countries with different economic and social systems. in all countries the upper 5..10% are washed up on top.
I saw this in Germany after reunification, when the "right choicers" from former GDR immediately swam to the top in West Germany.
So - isn´t it worth while to look at the other 90% plus of population? They need solidarity, call it fairness.
Having said this, my freedom for "right choice" is with the European way. This also comes with a responsibility: Paying high taxes.Those are not observations I would stick with.
The Way I See It
From tours of the USSR and China. The US is headed towards a communist like state. After greater abuse to come, the people will transform this idealism back to the power of the people.
It's history repeating itself.
How it will really transforms into and how it looks like, who knows.What definition for communism are we using since there seems to be so many of them.
This one is from Oxford Diictionary:
"a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs."
Nope, Never going to happen!This wokeness movement is attempting with neo-marxism like a political justice cult. Communist looks good on paper and words of emotion , yet not in reality.
It all runs and clashes with corperatism exteme liberalism. Both are starting their own cannibalism for dictatorship.
I step aside from idiotic wars. Perfer my own kingdom within. Then, Just give it, all away.
In my view, we have a segment of America's society that hopes to change the way we are governed, with the Government playing a much bigger part. Will, it happens? I feel the Democrats are learning more about socialism. One could say they have one foot in the door with Biden sitting in the White House... Will the Republicans make every effort to stop them? in my view, oh yes.
I think most American's would actully fight before letting America become a socialist country. Most appreciate freedom, and would not take kindly to a Government that makes all the decisions.
"free or not free"? Free, even if it requires a fight. -- To many of us that enjoy a free America.I agree, government can take care of the small stuff. Not our entire lives.
FREEDOM IS AWESOME.
Maybe in cloud cuckoo land it will happen.
A couple of facts: Karl Marx never worked a day in his life. The Germans infiltrated Lenin into Russia to start a war and take the country down.
Apparently he (Karl Marx) lived his life without depending on welfare. If he was refused the professor in philospophy and economics, it is more for political reasons than for his personal skills.
And as we are at "working for his life": His friend an cooauthor Friedrich Engels was an entrepreneur. He ran a clothing and textile business.
Read "Das Kapital" and then start to understand what the ideas of communism are about. If that is too many pages, just read the "Communist Manifest", a short abstract, which is divided into parts. The first part is a brilliant analysis of the economic development, the second is more political and more prone for controversal discussion.
Anyways, what has all this to do with the USA and its future? Nothing, except that the economic analysis of the first part of the Communist Manifest is still valid. Just exchange world steel production (of 1850) with world artificial intelligence progress and you see how far sighted these guys were almost 200 years ago.Individual liberty is the motivating force for prosperity across the land. Many little people working in freedom.
That force and that force alone brings about a percolating economy and opportunity for all.
Without individual liberty, and in it's place, the requirement of blind obedience to some system, there will be no fire in the engine.
You want a dead engine?
Put out the fire.
Put out the fire of enthusiasm, motivation, ambition and JOY of LIFE.
There: Dead!
!Don´t let yourself get confused by looking at mismanaged and suppressing regimes and their socialist leaning leadership.
For example China is prospering because their Communist party is NOT suppressing individual liberty to work and amass wealth. China´s communism is more confucianism and its philosophy of hierarchy is a two way road: People have to obey their leaders but also leaders have to take care of their people.
With my decade long work experience with the Chinese: i seldom saw as much enthusiasm, ambition and joy as with the Chinese entrepreneurs.
Where is liberty in the US if 80% of the people have paychecks that seldomly allow to meet ends. The liberty of making decisions is even more limited than in other countries because education, good education is not free of charge. "Many little people working" very hard to survive is no real sign of liberty, of freedom.If Americans were satisfied with what the typical Chinese entrepreneurs have I think you would find that 99% of able bodied American workers CAN "meet ends".
The problem is not survival, it is greed for more than is earned.I beg to object. This is about survival first and greed second. At least for a high percentage of the population.
Survival means that people are possibly able to take care of themselves for the present time, but they cannot take care of their future. Survival is escaping immediate perils. Living and prospering is something else.
It is not the paycheck for food or rent or a new TV set. It is about health insurance, pension funds, building up personal wealth. Too many can only dream of this.Yes, 3 out the top 4 countries are from Asian countries who have the highest life expectancy and China is just a bit lower than ours.
Although it may be nothing but word games, a better term might be Marxism (to each according to their needs, from each according to their ability). And yes, the US is headed there, just as most of the free world is.
Rather sad as it has been proven to fail wherever it has been tried.Yes, freedom within boundaries since boundaries provide freedom.
In a democratic republic such as ours, moral laws and The Golden Rule are the boundaries we rely upon in legislating the land. However, when corruption takes place, these precepts go out the window. What ensues instead?
Greed (for boundless wealth.) Power (in the wrong hands.) Tyranny (over the people.)
The difficulty is when the people stop being the purpose of government, and the government starts being the purpose of government. When such a deviation occurs, the government decides to fund itself on the backs of the people. And in this case, We The People becomes The Government Money Tree.
Is this okay with the Millennials? After all, they seem be the ones who do not understand the threat of government tyranny ... as they have been led to believe that the government can and should be mother/father of all.Governments make lousy parents, a great lack of love there.
Many are convinced otherwise. Why don't you believe it?
Government is the greatest scams in human history. Wouldn't trust them with my child. They would turn out to be a zombies or robots.
...without TRUTH in the predominant media outlets, which includes the internet, TV, newspaper and our educational institutions, freedom will cease to exist.
We have to insure that the truth is protected, revealed, exposed, disseminated ...
And allowed to be believed!
Forget cancel culture!
Forget it !!!!- also can you explain more about your comment:
"This wokeness movement is attempting with neo-marxism like a political justice cult."
What is the wokeness movement?
What is Neo Marxism based on?
How is it like a political-justice cult?
What is a political-justice cult?I think the greatest thing to fear comes down to way-high taxation on a wide-scale level.
If the taxes become so burdensome and the people become so desperate, they can fight back with one simple action:
They can revolt against government overreach by ceasing to pay taxes. It would have to done in absolute, one hundred percent unity. (I'm talking about democrats and republicans and independents and progressives and e v e r y o n e ...)
Can the feds throw the whole country in jail for not paying their taxes?
Well, can they?
LOL!
Yep, Margaret Thatcher (UK Conservative Prime Minister in the 1980s) made that mistake; which forced her to resign as Prime Minister e.g. she tried to reintroduce the poll tax.
The first attempt to introduce the poll tax in England in 1381 led to the ‘peasant’s revolt’; a rebellion by the people, that led to the demise of the poll tax.
Margaret Thatcher’s attempt to reintroduce the poll tax in 1990 led to the ‘poll tax’ riots, and mass civil disobedience which led Margaret Thatcher to resigning as Prime Minister and the unpopular poll tax being revoked.
BBC NEWS – UK Poll Tax Riots 31st March 1990: https://youtu.be/IwAgaxbJyuk
I cannot fight you. I cannot. Believe whatever the heck you want.
repeating:
The boundaries which the US Constitution sets forth have been whittled away and are not being valued or followed. This lack of appropriate boundaries and guidelines are the reason prosperity is so hard to come by. For instance, the government overreach of taxing, fee collecting and over-regulating individuals, businesses and manufacturing/building companies has increased over the last fifty years. This "slow-heating of frogs in a pan of water," can be considered taxation without representation. (By the time the water is boiling, and we realize how much we are loosing by contributing to the government money-tree, we frogs will be unable to jump out of the pan.)
We need to adhere to the Constitution of the United States, rather than implement socialistic and communistic remedies, thereby throwing the baby out with the bath water.I seem to get the distinctive impression that Americans equate ‘low taxes’ with ‘freedom’!
Americans seem to think that you can only have freedom with Laissez-faire Governments?
From a European perspective; the kind of Freedom Americans seem to want is the ‘freedom’ to say what you like, even if it harms others; the freedom to own guns, and kill each other; and the freedom to choose how much healthcare you can afford, even if it puts you into debt.
In the UK even our Conservative (right-wing/Capitalist) Governments are not Laissez-faire:-
• In the UK businesses and Industry are heavily 'Regulated' by the Government.
• In the UK we do have ‘freedom of speech’, provided it doesn't harm others or incite violence to harm others e.g. hate speech & hate crime, which is criminal offences in the UK.
• In the UK gun and knife ownership is illegal, and to use excessive force to defend yourself is a criminal act.
• In the UK healthcare is ‘free’ to all at the point of use e.g. the NHS (National Health Service).
I get it that Americans are worried that the more they are taxed, the less they have to spend; but what does it matter if education for ‘all’ up to the age of 18 is free; what does it matter if all your healthcare is ‘free’; what does it matter if you have an integrated public transport system; and what does it matter if you have a welfare system to fall back on if you fall on hard times.
Whether Brits pay more taxes or not is hard to compare because the USA taxes and tax system are so radically different to the UK that direct comparisons can’t be made. However, the important thing, in my view, isn’t how much tax you pay, but whether you have enough disposable income to buy non-essential goods, luxury items e.g. TV’s, Smart Phones etc., and can afford descent holidays (vacations).
The answer to that in the UK is that most Brits not only buy their luxury items but, with a minimum of six weeks paid leave (vacation) for all workers (by law); many Brits have up to two or three holidays (vacations) a year. As far as I can see, we have as much ‘freedom’ in a ‘Socialist’ leaning country as Americans have with a laissez-faire Government; yet in Britain, a lot more security because our Governments are far more willing to intervene, and be interactive, as appropriate/necessary in business, economic, environmental and social life etc.
So which freedoms ‘of importance’ doesn’t a country with strong ‘Socialist’ leanings (like the UK have) that the USA enjoys?One really doesn't need a country at all to maximize their freedom.
Between me living in Belize and Canada. Plus with world travelling that the covid killed for me and my daughter.
Our entrepreneurs system we creates. We are our own owners of our own domain of free trade and self government systems. I've talken off work as much as 11 months at one time. Since loving my work for most waking hours of life, I'll be doing it til the day I die.
UK and US once had the greatest freedom, not today with too many scams.Be specific Castlepaloma, what scams do you think impairs the freedom in the UK; or is this another one of your bland statements without evidence?
I have been to UK a few places and times. It's generally tighter and less free than it is in Canada from my experience.
https://news.wharton.upenn.edu/press-re … es-report/
It changes from year to year yet Canada has been freer than UK and US every year.
With Covid the world is less free than any other time in my lifetime.Much Thanks for the link to the Best Countries report by U.S. News & World Report, Wharton School, and BAV group. Very interesting and enlightening.
World Population Review has their 2021 report out too titled Best Countries to Live In 2021. They offer a different list, though some appear on both lists like Switzerland and Sweden. There are differences in how they determine their results.Castlepaloma, your link is just ‘one’ opinion; the link that tsmog provides doesn’t even list Canada in the 10 countries.
Besides, you still haven’t justified your accusation that scams impair the freedoms in the UK; and the link you provided doesn’t cover that point either.
So what in your opinion are the ‘scams’ that you claim impairs the freedoms in the UK? You haven’t listed any yet; all you’ve done so is make baseless claims against the USA & UK, without backing up those claims with any evidence.There is no printed evidence just printed money cover up. Because secrets society use mass hypnosis and multi media by sponsorships or lobbyists .
My other post ask people what are the top 5 scams in the last century. Most related to the Governments. What they don't know is the Bankster are the leading scams. They puppets the Government and the planedemic.
I not ready to say who they are, They could force me to hide away in the woods. Wail the crap hits the fan in the apocalypse.In other words Castlepaloma you’re just scamming us with false claims, no proof or evidence to back it up; and you’re not even capable of listing the scams you claim impairs the freedoms in the UK, I assume because there is no substance to your false claim.
It’s no good just say most people related the 5 top scams to Governments; or that Banks are the worst scammers; give some specific examples that can be disputed or debated.
You’re last sentence shows that you’re either paranoid (too much drugs), or it’s a feeble excuse to avoid answering simple questions?Stop with the drug nonsense. After my 5th sandsculpture world championship. Competitors wanted to know my secrete. I said I've done it longer than anyone and I don't do drug.
For me to build one tiny house and get a bank loan. My bankers want me to build them 2 houses (worth of money) for me to get the loan. Wail their money is backed by nothing and always they come out smelling like a rose.
I fought for 15 years the corrupted banksters and real estate brokers and finally have won thd legislation . My houses are affordable to 90% of the world population where most people can't afford a house. Same with the killer Gates GMO food industry. Where I sell organic foods and medicine healthy .
I know first hand experiences.
You know all the many times hand me downs that are mass hypnosis from corrupted corporationism and pharmaceutical toxic side effects. Prime Murderers cons with delusions health and freedoms.So in other words Castlepaloma you’re just paranoid!
So you’ve had some bad experiences with your Banks & Estate Agents; but that’s got nothing to do with ‘scams’ in the UK; you can’t judge the whole world from just one localised area.
Your last just shows how paranoid you’ve become. FYI, contrary to your ridiculous claims; in the UK corporations are not corrupt, and they do not practice mass hypnosis; and in the UK pharmaceutical toxic side effects are not the threat you think it is; and in the UK the pharmaceutical companies are not prime murderers and con artists as you claim. And in the UK we do not have delusions about health and freedoms, like you claim; in the UK we do have a good health system (the NHS) which is free to all at the point of use, and we do have freedoms.
So if you disagree with me, be specific, give details and show evidence; otherwise stop making groundless claims that are not true.My happy lifestyle is all the evidence I need. More I stay away from corrupted Governments and giant toxic corporations. The happier and healthier I am.
"So which freedoms ‘of importance’ d o e s n ’ t a country with strong ‘Socialist’ leanings like the UK have
that the USA has?"
which freedoms DOES Britain NOT have that the US DOES have?
What is our advantage?
What is their advantage?
Here is another question: What if we had never broken away from Britain and were under their jurisdiction to this day?
Would Americans be speaking with a British accent? (Lol!)I think the english accent is nicer than the American nasal problem sounding accent.
Prince Harry said American freedom of speech is "Bonkers."
(I love the way he talks.) and maybe he has a valid point ... But, no... Americans did not take kindly to his comment ...
at all.
Your question: Would Americans be speaking with a British accent if the USA was still part of the British Empire?
What is the British Accent; less than 3% of the British population speak like Prince Harry (Received Pronunciation aka the ‘Queens English’, aka BBC English).
The two most common English dialects in London these days are:-
• Estuary English (wealthier West End London), and
• MLE (Multicultural London English) (working class East End London).
Also, the Scots, Irish, Welsh and Cornish (all Celtic Nations), all have their own Celtic languages; with Welsh being the prime language in Wales.
And being from Bristol I speak the Bristolian accent & dialect, as in this classic Bristolian song below:-
• Adge cutler & The wurzels “Thee's Got'n Where Thee Cassn't Back'n, Hassn't”: https://youtu.be/AnKjwOLiBTg
“Thee's Got'n Where Thee Cassn't Back'n, Hassn't” is Bristolian for “You’ve got it stuck where you can’t back it out, haven’t you?”
FYI: there are over 30 distinctive British accents and dialects in just England alone; but in England we all call trousers, “trouser” and not “pants”, and we call “petrol”, “petrol” and not “gas”. And most definitely we call “chips”, “chips” and not “fries”; just as we call “crisps”, “crisps” and not “chips”; and “flats”, “flats” and not “apartments”; and “lifts”, “lifts” and not “elevators”; and “holidays”, “holidays” and not “vacations” etc., etc., etc.
Here is how I fight you:
https://hubpages.com/politics/forum/138 … al-system-It seems anarchist fit better with soft right or left side of politics. Because anarchist belief is no one is above me or no one is below me. As opposed to both of the extremes political sides.
Also find a soft religious person would be more of anarchist then an atheists extreme would be. Maybe because Jesus was more of an anarchist himself.
I prefer the Independent individual anarchist who is always open to spiritual sidedness. Then less into nationalism like what we have been experiencing the last 10 years.
The answer has to do with the whittling away of our freedoms by the government and the people connected to it.
How are we more free than Britain?
and is this freedom just as good as Britain's?
- for one thing, Britain would have gone broke trying to build this nation ...
If Americans had sat obediently back.
... which is really h i l a r l o u s! (understatement)
I crack myself up.World monopolies got to stop playing us for pawns.
Superman is more realistic than Batman. Who can believe that a billionaires would really help the people.
Repeating:
The answer has to do with the whittling away of our freedoms by the government and the people (elected leaders) connected to it.
How are we more free than Britain?
and is this freedom just as good as Britain's?
- for one thing, Britain would have gone broke trying to build this nation ...
If Americans had sat obediently back.It must be human nature to take the easy way out
... and fall for scams.The key concept to understand is Independence. There are people in America who do not understand this word! This explanation isolates the difficulty we are having politically, on a local level, national level and international level.
It comes down to world wide ignorance!I doubt the US is headed towards communism. I do, however, believe it is headed towards self-destruction.
There is so much hate by Americans towards other Americans. They use the same words like ‘lies’ and ‘fake news’ to criticise each other, but can’t agree on what is ‘truth’.
So many choose to define themselves (and each other) as Republicans or Democrats, losing sight of the fact they are all Americans.
Hard to believe there is any argument about what occurred at the Capitol, given they all have access to the same footage of violence. Hard to believe any consider Biden to be inarticulate and demented given they all get the chance to see him in action. And simply inconceivable any American can try to argue that the US is a wonderful place to live.
All this talk about freedom seems insincere given that so many Americans live with fear. The list of things they are afraid of is long ... and growing. Sadly, it looks like their fears will continue to turn them against each other.
And, yes, because they have the freedom to own guns and use them, I suspect the US will self-destruct. The ‘freedoms’ they claim they value and are fighting for may well result in their undoing.Mike - steel production has a lot to do with communism ... at least if you read the Communist Manifest by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. The authors used the steel production of the 1850ties to determine the industrialization and development of countries.
Today´s world is more robotics, AI, www, smartphones, renewable energy...
Anyways your reference to steel production made me look into this from an energy and pollution perspective. How is it possible that the US has a CO2 footprint almost twice as big as other countries whose steel production (being also a measure of making stuff) is much larger (double) in relative terms. Answer: Simple waste of energy, not efficient use of energy, no matter with or without CO2.
And at the end of the day this waste of energy made the US loose its competitive edge. Even in the USA energy is not for free commercially, not only in the minds of green thinkers.
So all this mess must be sombody´s fault. So blame liberals, socialists , communists..
Well, it is actually the other way around. First was loss of competivity, then was the explanation: we don´t need to be competitive, we just buy stuff cheaper somewhere else on our planet. Then .. people gradually lost their jobs, the economy shifted to service oriented with low payed jobs. And now the people sticking their finger into this problem are called names.
The USA is not communist. But communist, socialist countries were a synonym for poor management, backward and incompetitive systems for a long period of time (cold war). Today the USA shows signs of poor management, incompetitive industry. This is only some distant resemblance to cold war socialist systems, nothing more.I can tell you that people in the US steel industry will let you know international competition is stifled by American companies because other countries provide significant subsidies to their steel industries. This makes it possible for the other countries to sell their steel at a lower cost than the United States. Under President Donald Trump, subsidies were being given the the US Steel industry. Old plants were opening up. Biden ended the program, so now the US steel industry is back to where is was before President Donald Trump was elected.
Subsidies are never really good, because they distort the picture.
However subsidies are used for 2 reasons by politics.
1. Promote new and innovative industries (like in Europe with the renewables)
2. Protect old industries to keep jobs.
As you wrote: "old plants..." this belongs to no. 2 category and is kind of backward, not really helping strategically.
Besides, any country can only provide stimuli or subsidies, as long as that particular country can afford it. Eventually countries simply run out of money to pay for subsidies. If they have sovereign currency (like the USA or UK), the countries can disguise the true nature of lack of competitivity for a certain period of time, but eventually all is uncovered. Current situation of the US goes back to the Nixon presidency and the costly end of the Vietnam war. That is when the mess started.
And has little to do with the Steel industry. That is only a symptom, one of many industries that encounter the same problem.
I lived in Michigan in the 70ties. Most of the family was working in a GM carburator plant. That plant doesn´t exist any more. No subsidies would have prevented that fuel injection was "more competitive". And now we shall see if e-mobility doesn´t force "fuel injection" out of business.Interesting points Chris, and interestingly the UK subsidies are split as follows:-
• £10.5 billion ($14.65 billion) UK subsidies to fossil fuels, and
• £12 billion ($16.75 billion) UK subsidies to Renewable Energy.
I do not see how the United States can ever embrace communism. Communism thrives and bullies people and that is something not possible in America because there are so many private armies and almost 300,000,000 rifles floating around. I don't see how you can enforce any form of communism here. Communism means a regimented society and that is something no American will accept. So talking of the US heading towards communism is like saying can we drive to the moon.
MG,
You are absolutely correct.
Latest statistics show that over 40 percent of Americans own firearms of some kind. That is only the LEGALLY registered guns. You can increase that number significantly if you add all the illegal guns in circulation.
I appreciate your observation.
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