J6 Rioters now say they were manipulated by Trump? Oh my....

1. 81

   Credence2posted 3 years ago

   Right wingers turn my stomach, they always have.
   
   Liz Cheney made a point that we are all adults here and not impressional children. Following orders from Hitler or not being aware of the manitude of their crimes did not save war criminals from their appointed Nuremberg necktie parties, nor should it save the Trumpers in their crimes, today. It would be my pleasure to operate the trap door for any and all.
   
   Two reasons while this "stop the steal" nonsense has persisted regardless of overwhelming information to the contrary.
   
   Loyalty to Trump: that, in itself, is stupid as Trump does not care about his followers and would jettison any one or all of them to save his own mangy hide. Only children or very stupid people are so motivated. If you are going to "hero worship" get someone worthy of it. The defenders say it is just "human nature", well, it has never motivated this human. You have to earn my respect by setting the example and by following the proper rules of engagement.
   
   The second reason which is more sinister and unfortunately apply to most of them is that multicultural/multiracial operation of the government is unacceptable, so that any Democratic Party win regardless of its factual nature has to be considered as illegitimate on its face. Trump lost because of the overwhelming support of non whites voting in urban areas within battle ground states? That is obvious to anyone who took the time to look. Tucker Carlson, Rightwingers and conservative generally will never admit to the real reason that they are upset as it is politically unpalatable, so they create a fable instead. Such weak, Lily livered people? Why else the overwhelming presence of authoritarian and racist white nationalist groups at the J6 protests? Is it just a coincidence? In a pigs eye. More of you are supportive of this then you let on, how else has such lunacy been allowed to continue for so long?
   
   Who says that people like me should give people like these "a chance"?
   
   I want Merri k Garrland to hand out indictments like raffle tickets, without being faint of heart and with total impartiality. I don't care if that upsets the rightwing groups as, they, too may need to be bashed in the chops if they get out of line.

   replyreport
2. 80

   Stephen Tomkinsonposted 3 years ago

   Hmmm, yes. I would certainly agree with all of your sentiments. However, one has to be careful. Trump spoke to the concerns of many who felt themselves to be marginalized in a society that seemed to be leaving them behind.
   They were (and are) willing to overlook the fact that Trump was a liar, as Christian as my cat, and treated women like dirt.
   Trump, I believe, should be judged, and judged harshly, for his mendacious and divisive actions. However, as things stand, dragging him into court will further divide the nation - perhaps beyond repair.
   First, it's necessary to show beyond any reasonable doubt that this man hoodwinked America and deserves no respect whatsoever. Render him useless and show him up as an ignorant fool - then send him to prison after a fair trial.

   replyreport
   1. 81

      Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Stephen, why did they feel marginalized, and why did it express itself in bigoted terms at the J6? Marginalized relative to what and to whom?
      
      It is more dangerous to let those involved in this sordid affair escape prosecution. What message does that send about the rule of law and that no man is above it?
      
      Trump cannot be allowed to get away with this affair that were it not for a fortunate circumstance or two, could have well giving him a second term ignoring the will of the majority of Americans. That can never be allowed to happen, now, nor ever. Otherwise, this ongoing experience in democratic government can be considered over.
      
      The key is that an indictment must occur and as embarrassing as it is for any former President to have to experience it, he brought it on itself and in the interests of justice, hands must be tied in regard to leniency.
      
      The message has to be sent and medicine has to be strong to bring the patient any ultimate relief.
      
      The way things have been going, I will not give these people any of my sympathy.

      replyreport
3. 80

   Stephen Tomkinsonposted 3 years ago

   Call me Steve - Stephen sounds like my mother in upset mode.
   Once more, we have nothing to disagree over. However, many - not just in the US - find that the modern world has left their skills, beliefs, and foundations outdated. Populists like Trump play on this and ride a wave of enthusiasm through easy, meaningless slogans like MAGA. In a way, Trump and his team were lucky that Covid came along. Had it not, the sheer bankrupt idiocy of his economic, diplomatic, and social programs would have been exposed for what they were. A Wizard of Oz illusion.
   But he has his supporters amongst the lost who yearn for an America that never existed.
   These are the marginalized, and they carry a lot of weight. Convince then condemn.

   replyreport
   1. 81

      Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Ok, Steve
      
      I understand your point, yet the reality is that time changes space.
      
      I might have understood this in 2016, while Trump was making all these promises about restoring the status and opportunities for working people. But, for the most part, they were lies. More of the same GOP stuff to benefit the wealthy over the rest of us. Why do you think that the GOP clinged to him so tightly, it was a slight of hand, deceiving one for the benefit of the other? Since when have they been concerned about the "little guy"? In those years after Trump's inauguration, all of his bluster and populist talk turned out to be a flop. By 2020, who would have still believed it?
      
      He was the idea of a walking-talking Ponzi scheme in action.
      
      Well, Steve there a lot of people that resent the fact that the clock must move forward and only breaks when you try to reverse its motion. When has that not been true when analyzed over decades of time?
      
      Their marginalization is more akin to resentment about the modern world and their place in it. There are no longer any "given" or constants in the new universe, they have to adapt and compete like all of the rest of us. Our group has been beaten up on over the centuries and no one seems to be interested as to how we can be upset.
      
      You said that you lived in Spain, do you really see a Trump like following in the societies that you are familiar with in Europe. And, if you do, is it anywhere near as large as what we are dealing with here in America?
      
      I am sorry if I can't feel sorry for them, as WE have had to go through much worse. Yet, we have continued to have faith in the democratic process throughout.

      replyreport
4. 80

   Stephen Tomkinsonposted 3 years ago

   Hi Credence,
   Here in Spain, we have Vox - a fairly new party that comes out with the usual drivel about "Spain for the Spaniards" and so on. This country wouldn't last 5 minutes without immigrants and European Union funds. But, coincidentally, I was talking the other day to a friend of mine, a conservative academic, who told me that he was in a meeting with Vox leaders in Madrid last week and that they want to give the party a more reasoned underpinning and phase out the rhetoric.
   In my country, Britain, comparisons are made between Trump and Johnson, but they have little in common.
   Classical Conservatism accepted that change was inevitable and debated how best it should be dealt with. Edmund Burke thought that the French Revolution would be a disaster for France - in the short term it was. However, he supported the American Revolution because he saw it as a different fight.
   The Republicans used to echo these sorts of sentiments, now they are just pandering. Hence this RINO crap.

   replyreport
   1. 81

      Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks for your response, Steve.
      
      Whatever it is that desires to keep power and choices in the hands of a few rather than the many is the very definition of conservatism.
      
      Your VOX party has the same problem we have with the MAGAs, the endless struggle through alchemy to make excrement all the more palatable for the masses.
      
      As bad as Johnson was for Britain, Trump is worse.
      
      Who would say that rule under an absolute monarchy is "better" for the people than a republic? Conservatives.....
      
      What is the rationale for Burke to make a distinction between the American Revolution and the French one? Just curious...

      replyreport
5. 80

   Stephen Tomkinsonposted 3 years ago

   As I understand it (and I might well be misrepresenting him), Burke thought that the French uprising was a knee-jerk reaction against injustice. Changes had to be made but there were other ways to do it without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
   On the other hand, the Americans were in a "new" land, far from their rulers in London. Only the residents in the colonies could understand local conditions and the best way to adapt to them. Many in Britain thought the same - think of Thomas Paine, for example.
   If you will, the French were destroying, the Americans creating.

   replyreport
   1. 81

      Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

      I don't know Steve, seemed like both the baby and bathwater needed to be thrown out. Absolute monarchs were not open to their changing their ways nor ceding any power. Could Louis XVI have avoided his fate by offering compromise to the oppressed masses, instead of ignoring them basking in opulence, extravagance and indifference? When I read about Czar Nicholas II, he too, remained resistant to change to the detriment of both him and his family.

      replyreport
6. 80

   Stephen Tomkinsonposted 3 years ago

   There were indeed similarities between Nicholas and Louis. In France and Russia, there was another common point. The revolutionaries wanted change but were not clear what they wanted to replace the old system with.
   This was not the case in the US.

   replyreport
   1. 81

      Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Good point...

      replyreport