After rampant speculation, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi will "or maybe going to " visit Taiwan tomorrow. According to leaks, and unconfirmed reports, it looks like she is going.
"While certain details remain up in the air, Pelosi is expected to go to Taiwan following her current stop in Singapore. She is reported to have planned meetings with Taiwanese officials and others on Tuesday evening and Wednesday.
"She’s definitely coming," a person familiar with the situation told the Wall Street Journal. "The only variable is whether she spends the night in Taipei."
"China will take resolute and strong measures to defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. As for what measures exactly we will take, let's wait and see if she dares making the visit," as spokesperson for China’s Foreign Ministry said about the possibility of Pelosi going to Taiwan."
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pelosi … ity-report
YIKES! What is going to happen to Nancy?
So, what do you think China will do if Nancy takes a jab at China?
What is this all about anyway, thoughts?
I think that the trip is needlessly provocative. Seems like we have enough on our plate without provoking China any more than necessary.
The relationship being delicate between the US and China, President Biden should cancel it.
I agree 100%. I mean why now? I can't at all figure out why Nancy needed to take this trip, and what purpose it served.
I don't think Pres. Biden can cancel. I think our national prestige requires that we go now.
The relationship may be delicate, but limits must be established, (through testing), theirs and ours.
GA, it was still bad judgement and timing.
As I said about Ukraine, it is best to not unnecessarily put an adversary in an untenable position, so as to avoid finding yourself in one.
China has prestige as well. The problem with America and Americans is that they fail to realize both China and Russia are superpowers and will not submit to a world based on American hegemony, indefinitely. If we are not really prepared to defend Taiwan against mainland China, there is that sphere of dominant influence concept again, perhaps we should stand down. Those are what I consider rational limits.
We should save any potential conflict between China and ourselves for over something of a more substantive nature than Nancy Pelosi's field trips.
Whether the trip is a mistake as a "field trip" is secondary to the reality of the situation—now that it has become a news item.
Now it's a pretty simple issue; China has told us not to do something we were planning to do, or else. Our choice is also simple, tail up or tail down. I think we are in a forced situation and I don't think we can 'back down' now. I vote tail up.
I see your point. I think the time has come and gone to tweak China or Russia's noses. While we have been so busy with insignificant BS in America, China has become huge power. It would appear China has built up its military, weaponry, and cash. Hard to win a war when facing these three variables.
I still can't figure out why Nancy had the need to take such a trip
at this time?
I think China will take some form of military action due to Nancy's field trip. However, I think China save the big show of power when they quickly take Taiwan. And hopefully, we do not become entangled in their war.
I would argue that "the time" hasn't come and gone, it is 'now' and letting this one 'go' would be more dangerous than confronting it. With every success comes arrogance. We have allowed that arrogance to grow to the point where China now offers the rhetoric of military action against a U.S. politician. They wouldn't have done that two years ago, (re. Trump and Putin), and we can't let them get away with it now.
In past years I would so agree, I hopefully will agree once again after the 2024 election. However, in my view, I am very fearful our current administration is not up to the job of standing up to China, and I would think China knows this.
I feel we are in a very vulnerable situation when it comes to China and Russia. This administration has shown nothing but weakness. Would you want this bunch to handle a true conflict with China?
I just look at these four years as a wash. I am looking forward to a new administration that will resemble administrations we admired in
n the past. I really am uncomfortable with Biden making decisions.
Yes, it's hard for me to watch America weakened at this point. However, I don't want to tip the scales. I am satisfied with biding time.
I feel China need not go to war to make the US suffer. All they need to do is stop sending container ships to our shores. They have the wealth now to do this, in my view. They could cause prolonged pain...
While we huff and puff about gender equality, abortion, and a new green planet, emptying our oil reserves, decreasing our capacity to produce oil, accepting a deplete staffed military, sending our weapons to Ukraine, as we cut production of weapons --- China has increased the population of their military, built advanced hypersonic weapons, and have topped off their oil reserves, which some of what is our oil from our reserves. Not to mention they are now the richest country in the world.
So, how does one push back, and show strength, when we are somewhat weaker than we were at this point?
In my view, Trump.was a strong president, no-nonsense.
I felt much safer under his watch.
(forgive the lengthy comment, I do go on and on.)
I feel China need not go to war to make the US suffer. All they need to do is stop sending container ships to our shores. They have the wealth now to do this, in my view. They could cause prolonged pain..
"While we huff and puff about gender equality, abortion, and a new green planet, emptying our oil reserves, decreasing our capacity to produce oil, accepting a deplete staffed military, sending our weapons to Ukraine, as we cut production of weapons --- China has increased the population of their military, built advanced hypersonic weapons, and have topped off their oil reserves, which some of what is our oil from our reserves. Not to mention they are now the richest country in the world."
As far as I am concerned these domestic concerns are paramount for me. What do I care about China when we have contention within our own society? The next question is even if we could, how would we have stopped China from accumulation of the power that it has short of war? We certainly coveted that status for ourselves, is it unnatural for other societies not to seek the same?
GA speaks of arrogance, well I say that "arrogance" can be a two way street.
And I always say that Trump was more about bravado than any real courage and commitment. I do not believe that he would have fared any better were he in Biden's place today, if not worse.
I was not making an attempt to play down your concerns, only hoped to point out what the Chinees government finds more important.
What do I care about China when we have contention within our own society? The next question is even if we could, how would we have stopped China from accumulation of the power that it has short of war?
Well in my view, it would seem. we may want to be concerned for our very survival as a Nation. We sit on a big planet, and it is unfortunate but we might need to consider some nation's strive for world power. China has played the long game and has reached a very powerful country.
I disagree at one point if we would have had the good sense to stop becoming so dependent on them, for so much. We did not play the long game, but the game that suited our need to have it all, and have it cheap.
I 100% agree we have no way at this point to stop them in their quest for world power. We could work toward becoming less dependent, but will we? Not sure we have a society that is willing to buck up and work toward becoming more dependent on America. I mean it seems we openly went into purchasing anything we could from China.
I must say, I feel the majority of the problems we are seeing today are due to Biden, and his careless non- common sense policies.
I also will say the damage he has caused so quickly can be fixed, and hopefully will be with a new administration.
"I disagree at one point if we would have had the good sense to stop becoming so dependent on them, for so much. "
And how would this have been accomplished? Nationalized all of our important industries so that they would be under government control and unable to leave our shores? Well remember Capitalism? There's a lot more profit for companies when they pay their workers pennies.
I would need to write a book on my opinion of how and why the US became so dependent on China. Ultimately it was due to our Government, and many administration's policies. In my view very, little common sense was used by our representatives and this is why wee ended up with our enormous dependency on China.
Write it Sharlee, I think you've hit the nail on the head. History has lead us to where we find ourselves today with China.
There is a deep interdependence between the United States and China. I believe that the balance of interests on both sides likely will control hostile impulses.
Going forward we will have to coexist alongside each other because whatever action is taken by either country, both sides will be impacted. Both economies are dependent upon the other.
"Arrogance" was the wrong choice. I thought of a better one later but was too lazy to rephrase stuff. Mea Culpa
"Emboldenment." It's not a real word, but it carries the intended thought. I guess I could have rephrased for 'emboldened', but . . .
The point was that in recent decades our national response to Chinese aggressions; financial, cyber, artificial military islands, et al, has ranged from just tepid to turn-cheek tolerance. We have chased their markets in both government and private sector actions. I say each unresisted achievement must have emboldened the Chinese to take another step.
I don't think the kind of word choices we have seen from China over this issue would have even entered their minds 20 years ago. They might have felt the same 'whatever' as they do now, but they wouldn't have dared say such things publically, (and attributable), as they said this time.
That's is my point of 'emboldenment.' I think we have reached a line that must be called. If not, those paramount domestic concerns of yours will become even more paramount and you will need approval to chase them.
As for what we could have done? If I was smart enough to figure that out, I'd give them a call. However, I do think I know what they should do now, and Pelosi did it. Kudos. Now, Pres. Biden must back her up, firmly and clearly. And decisively. I'm rooting for him bud, this is important geopolitical stuff. The D or R stuff should stay in the box for this.
As to Trump, the only point was of extreme circumstances as the situation, not the actions.
I understand the standard "cowboy and Indian" reasoning so common to the average American. I can accept your view even though it is not mine. But, I say that it takes two to tango.
Yes, find a way to extract concessions from China short of lighting a match in a gasoline depository.
"......... If not, those paramount domestic concerns of yours will become even more paramount and you will need approval to chase them."
Is that so?
As for those paramount concerns, I will take my chances.
I will tell you something, I don't need to look across the Pacific or over the horizon to find the tyrants, thugs and mobsters that are in my own backyard. That is composed of conservatives, Rightwingers, Republicans, etc. However it is you define yourselves, these days. I note the changes being fought for by my adversaries and see where they are leading and I find that the real danger is right here, right now.
I'm not sure I understand your "cowboy and indian reasoning" thought, but if it is intended to be as I took it, I don't think I like it. So what was your point?
The rest of your comment is just your average conservative bashing and this average American will just leave you to wallow in it.
Let me clarify
It refers to attitude where on side gets to write the narrative is always the "good guy", as we assume or as the "Cowboy's rendition of history would downplay broken treaties, land grabs and massacres that were a part of "Manifest Destiny" and how the "West was Won". There are two sides to every story, that was the case in the Ukraine as it is regarding Sino-American relationships. Was America's relationship with China totally altruistic, truly, from our point of view? Probably. Good guys don't always wear white hats. What are China's grievances with America? Do any of these have validity as indignation can be expressed from either and both sides?
Excuse me if I digress, But have you been reading the papers lately, GA?
Check out Arizona where there has been more than talk of allowing partisan state legislators the option of dismissing the predominant choice of the electorate (assigning electors) in the state for electing the President, by replacing that with its preferred choice. We are deevolving back toward a pre 1917 status of legislators selecting Presidents, excluding the will of the people. We have talked before about this issue of what you consider "too much democracy". Well, your folks are determined to see that we get none at all.
I would rather be presented with a sword in my face upfront, from an autocratic society that would be of no surprise over the modus operendi of American conservatism that seeks to mug Miss Liberty while her back is turned.
In the face of current national rightwing objectives, and their preference and pedestal-placing of the world's most authoritarian and autocratic regimes, they deserve "bashing". I won't be delicate nor mince words, for the most part these people that you advocate for, are despicable and dangerous.
Americans need not wallow in it but had better react like a startle experience of a cold shower.
And the danger being as close as my next door neighbor is one that I can ill afford to ignore.
Your clarification helped, it confirmed my original read.
So, "here's the deal."
Your evolving social justice warrior efforts are affecting the objectivity of your comprehension. Your zeal is causing you to read what you want to see and not what was written.
I will leave the corrective work to you, but there was nothing about Right or Left, or who was right or wrong, in my responses. Yet that has been the crux of your replies. If you're going to 'Salley forth' you should at least be sure of your 'sallay forthee'.
Does the lack of a 'good guy vs. bad guy' or 'R vs L' inference in my thoughts about limits and "emboldenment' offer a different reading of the message?
As unlikely as I thought it could be, yes, you did digress, (even more), with that other stuff about Arizona. Start a topic, I'll find an opinion I like. ;-)
Hmm . . . That was a bit harsh. I was trying to note both the inevitability of this confrontation and our response to it. I even spoke well of Speaker Pelosi, and I almost never do that.
I don't think political affiliation has any place in this issue. This is external, not internal, and we should face it that way—either in or out, no half-stepping.
This confrontation was coming. An optimist might say that at least we picked the moment. Proactive is almost always better than reactive.
I simply acknowledge that our points of view are different regarding this matter as they are about many things.
There is a Left way of foreign policy verses a Rightwing way. The Left heralds the UN and the posse concept to maintain order over the conservatives ideas of the "lone wolf" which leave open our ability against more powerful forces to prevail and avoiding the impression that America is in this for its own interests, and is seen as just as tyrannical from other points of view.
We simply disagree as to how this visit should have been handled, I would have questioned the need for such a visit at this time in the first place.
She never definitively said she was going. There were only rumors and talk about a visit. China immediately responded with a threatening posture. As a result, whether she had planned to go or not, she certainly had to make the visit in light of China's stance. Anything else would have looked weak. I think she made the right decision.
You could expect no less, as for China, American continued involvement in Taiwan is like pinching on a nerve. It should have been no surprise to anyone that they would react this way.
If It were me, I would consider the drawbacks of antagonizing an already touchy situation without a compelling reason. I suspect that "reason" will come soon enough. I just think that we have to pick our battles more carefully.
"There you go again." Putting politics right back into it.
Consider this; my original comment, and all that followed spoke to the question of whether Pelosi should visit or not—after the leaks and media made her visit a public issue, and, after the Chinese issued their physical threats, (her plane could be shot down).
That point included two 'afters' meaning it wasn't about her 'foreign affiars' motives for scheduling the trip, it was what should she do now that the Chinese have told her not to do it?
What is your 'Left-way' of answering that question? Send it to the UN for reconciliation? (ok, ok, that was just a little bit sarcastic, but, for you, maybe not so much) ;-)
Where else are they going to send their container ships too? Africa? South america? No we are their number one trading partner I do believe. I don't think they will cut off their nose to spite their face. Their very existence is dependent on our country. Nancy Pelosi was 100% correct to call their bluff. She really had absolutely no other option.
United States: US$521 billion (17.2% of China’s total exports)
Hong Kong: $313.1 billion (10.3%)
Japan: $151.3 billion (5%)
South Korea: $135.1 billion (4.5%)
Vietnam: $125.8 billion (4.2%)
Germany: $103 billion (3.4%)
Netherlands: $91.6 billion (3%)
India: $87.9 billion (2.9%)
United Kingdom: $78.8 billion (2.6%)
Taiwan: $70.8 billion (2.3%)
Malaysia: $69.1 billion (2.3%)
Thailand: $62.1 billion (2.1%)
Mexico: $61.1 billion (2%)
Australia: $59.6 billion (2%)
Russia: $59.5 billion (2%)
Yes, we have been the number one nation to make China the richest nation in the world. Perhaps they now may be looking to be the most powerful nation?
They could literally collapse our economy if they wanted to. And they could do it within a very short time.
" Nancy Pelosi was 100% correct to call their bluff. She really had absolutely no other option."
Really no options? She well knows as anyone that follows politics that China is rattling chain about taking over Taiwan. Perhaps she should have never even made the decision to go on a photo op. There was nothing that demanded her attention in any of the Countries she traveled to. One can only wonder why she needed to make this trip at this time.
Hmm . . . Could her trip have been a response to China's 'chain-rattling'?
I think it would have been a good one, but not so sure our current crop of politicians and leaders have the balls to have proposed it. Oh well.
Great point, as of late china has done some real chain rattling.
I feel Nancy Pelosi is one politician who knows how to play the game. I feel she is always one step ahead of the rest. She has always had a big set of "balls" (gravitas), and never shows fear in a stand-off. I think she made a brave gesture. Her trip goes to prove the US support for Taiwan, and that China does not dictate where an American Congress person can travel.
Nancy P. came through with flying colors. She saw what needed to be done, and did it. Even when Biden was looking for a way out, by saying "the military is against the trip."
Nancy pulled it off. Not sure how China will respond?
It's about time the USA called the Chinese bluff, for too long the USA including its military is petrified of China. Let's see what happens.
Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s visit to Taiwan has stirred a storm of controversy, heightening tensions with China and captivating the world’s attention.
For the California Democrat, however, the trip is something much more personal.
Pelosi has a long track record of confronting Chinese leaders head-on, particularly on issues of human rights, stretching back decades to include the massacre of pro-democracy activists on Tiananmen Square.
“Pelosi has a long history of challenging Beijing — including her visit to Tiananmen Square in 1991 – unfurling an American flag no less..."
“If she does indeed retire after this Congress, I suspect the trip will be viewed as the capstone of her legacy on the issue (well, if all goes well, that is),” Binder said.
Pelosi on Tuesday explained her reasoning behind the trip...
“In the face of the Chinese Communist Party’s (CCP) accelerating aggression, our congressional delegation’s visit should be seen as an unequivocal statement that America stands with Taiwan, our democratic partner, as it defends itself and its freedom,” Pelosi wrote in an op-ed for The Washington Post.
“As Russia wages its premeditated, illegal war against Ukraine, killing thousands of innocents — even children — it is essential that America and our allies make clear that we never give in to autocrats,” she wrote.
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/3585 … o-speaker/
"History has lead us to where we find ourselves today with China. " And with most political disasters in this country, it began with a republican president: Nixon. When will we ever learn?
I have been to China so many times as well as the States, while some in the US talk of "accommodation" with China, it's not so there. China is firm that American hegemony must be overthrown and the dollar replaced as the international currency, in other words, the US must be
subservient to China to survive. Let's see what happens as the US antagonized Russia with a proxy war and drove the 2 nations into a monolithic alliance against which America is bound to lose.
And I suspect there are behind the scenes sub-plots and orchestrations that we will never fully know.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/02/white-h … -trip.html
I left this link here to show that MY position is far from unreasonable. It is sort of ironic that beyond Biden's justifiable caution, Republicans in congress cheer her on as they have not for anything else, right in line with the damned sable rattlers that they always have been.
So, who is telling me that there is no politics involved here?
Are you saying that after the Chinese said she shouldn't go, she should have canceled her visit?
All that I have read indicates Pelosi visited Taiwan to solidify the US support for a self-governing island. In the past, our Government would have backed and supported such a trip, and not been fearful of supporting democracy. In my view, we have a president that will not become involved in showing strength on the foreign stage. Hence his now horrific reputation for how he handled Afghanistan, and Russia as they built up troops at the Ukraine border. The US appears weakened at this moment. A perfect time for China to walk into Taiwan. China is using Russia's same ploy, no they are not building up troops, they are surrounding Taiwan with missile strikes.
In my view, Biden has never, I mean never made a sensible decision in regard to foreign affairs. Her trip was political, and her statement to the Taiwan people was clear -- the US supports you... She showed strength while our president showed weakness, as he did when Russia started building up its troops on the order of Ukraine.
"TAIPEI, Taiwan — U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, meeting leaders in Taiwan despite warnings from China, said Wednesday that she and other members of Congress in a visiting delegation are showing they will not abandon their commitment to the self-governing island.
"Today the world faces a choice between democracy and autocracy," she said in a short speech during a meeting with Taiwan's President Tsai Ing-wen. "America's determination to preserve democracy, here in Taiwan and around the world, remains ironclad."
https://www.npr.org/2022/08/03/11153382 … na-protest
Last I knew this applied - The Constitution divides war powers between Congress and the president. Only Congress can declare war and appropriate military funding, yet the president is commander in chief of the armed forces.
In my view, Nancy showed China she is awake at the wheel, and won't take any crap. China realizes the time is right to move in on Taiwan, we have a weak man in the White House.
I also must say, we saw none of this under Trump. All hell has broken out under this administration.
Are you flip-flopping on me, Sharlee? Before you an I agreed that Pelosi's trip was a little provocative. Did you allow you views to be changed by Fox and the endless drone of Right-wing radio?
Following you around, you never had anything good to say about President Biden.
If ms Pelosi got into trouble with China, who other than the Commander and Chief would have the authority using our armed forces to bail her out, so Mr. Biden is more than just a casual bystander under these circumstances.
You saw none of it under Trump because none of the current events just so happened to not take place during his administration.
Short of instigating World War 3, I don't see Biden falling short in his response to Russia and the Ukraine.
It was provocative. But when the cat was let out of the bag, she had to go. I am still trying to figure out why she planned the trip at just a precarious time, and why the trip was leaked, this more or less forced her to make the decision to go.
I agree, I have never had a positive word about this man, other than I felt the infrastructure bill was somewhat positive.
It all seems very odd that she goes against Biden, does it not? is she on her way to help usher him out? This trip certainly leaves her in bright positive light, and Biden once again in dim light, showing him to be a weak leader.
Trump was strong and unpredictable, he also did not hesitate to make spur-of-the-moment when it came to handling foreign decisions.
I think a strong president could have cold stopped Russia from moving into Ukraine.
It is no secret Russia wanted to take Ukraine for a very long time. They moved in due to it being a perfect time, as China will most likely move in on Taiwan.
Back to Nancy, I consider her one of the most intelligent Democrats in the party. She is a great asset, she is a fighter and a good strategist. She played this lastest ploy brilliantly, in my view. She did what she needed to do, she pushed back on China. Biden cowered in the White House, confused about what to do. He is always a day late, a buck short.
Nancy also knows it's time for Joe to go... And with her trip to Taiwan, she added another nail... She knows he must not be allowed to run, and did her part to further show him up as not doing his job, due to being an indecisive inept man. She done did him in.
"Trump was strong and unpredictable, he also did not hesitate to make spur-of-the-moment when it came to handling foreign decisions"
Yes, aides claimed he had little grasp of government or the history of the country. I find that he was unqualified for the position. His lack of working knowledge of government coupled with his unpredictability made for dangerous combination.
Remember these statements?
"Can anyone think of a reason why the U.S. probably shouldn’t put Chinese flags on its F-22 planes and “bomb the shit out of Russia”? And then say, “China did it, we didn’t do it, China did it”? And then “sit back and watch” as the two countries fight with each other? Trump can’t. (This would probably explain why he reportedly also thought the U.S. could “quietly” “shoot missiles into Mexico” and “no one would know it was us.”)"
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanity … -guide/amp
"There you go again" is where I lost respect for Ronald Reagan. He wasn't talking to an errand boy. He was addressing the President of the United States. It wasn't until Trump that I lost respect for the holder of that office. Reagan was the first to denigrate it. And people loved him for it. So began our decline in confidence in our institutions.
" Reagan was the first to denigrate it. And people loved him for it. So began our decline in confidence in our institutions."
Should that not tell something? Did and does a large part of our society what more than a suit in the White House? Could many be in search of someone that has given them a voice, and they can simulate with his personality, feeling his words are his, not words that someone put in his mouth?
When speaking about Reagan many use the word "love". They also use the word love, when talking about Trump. They actually scream it at rallies. So, matter what you feel or I feel about Trump --- millions literally love home. What stronger emotion could a politician emote?
Hate? Many love him many literally hate him. So, while you feel we have witnessed a "decline in confidence in our institutions". Many have gained greater confidence in our institutions.
A real tug of war, I would say.
Your view is as valid as mine, so we both get to keep them. ;-)
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