Credit and Blame

1. 75

   Valeantposted 2 years ago

   
   It's interesting to listen to people in today's political environment.  If it's great, they did it.  If it's bad, it must be because of the other party.  Even if the causes can be attributed elsewhere.  It's become tiresome to see what people will try and take credit for and what they use their partisan blame for.
   
   For example, many often cite the average gas prices in each of the four years during Trump's term to show how great he was.  Recently, I had a Trump supporter list the following figures:
   Here are his figures:
   2017- $2.42
   2018-$2.72
   2019-$2.60
   2020 $2.17
   
   So then I decided to go back two more years and discovered that there wasn't really much of a change from what Obama had left.
   2015 - $2.51
   2016 - $2.20
   
   Just another way Trump has convinced his base of something that really wasn't much different than when Obama left office.  Like job gains.  Like GDP.  Like stock market gains.
   
   Then, when looking at the current Stock Market, it had record growth up until ... Russia declared an intent to invade Ukraine.  Since that point, the market has been in decline.  But why blame Russia when you can attack your own countryman for it? 
   
   I found an interesting opinion piece by Robert Reich about the fearmongering points that are being used to rile up the GOP base.  He certainly has some points to make:
   https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/com … bert-reich
   
   Thoughts?

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      Fayetteville Fayeposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Media tailors  content to their viewer base. In any issue, they tease out components that don't strongly support their political leaning. Instead they focus on narrow aspects of the issue or story. Very few outlets report an issue in it's entirety. Fewer yet, provide any sort of historical context or additional information that would help viewers understand a complex issue.   The situation is worsened by the fact that Americans tend to remain in their chosen news bubble. How many hear a news report and search for the complete story?  I think far too many watch/read only  to confirm their beliefs or bias.
      Folks need to be brave enough  to come out of their bubble and actually challenge their biases and views.  For those that take any reporting as gospel, research it with solid sources first. Look for the rest of the story.  When this happens, I think most of us find that the issues aren't as extreme as media would lead us to believe. They want your hair on fire so you'll come back day after day to see or hear more. It's ratings, it's money.
      Personally, I always find that pretty much any issue lands in a moderate space when all factors are considered and the complete story is told. But that does not make for the rage filled, accusatory and absolutist positions some look for and media is happy to feed.

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      Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, I have read it, and as Reich indicates, the Republican Right suck as consummate liars.
      
      The issue coming up is how they are anticipated to attempt a government shutdown over raising the debt ceiling to extort concessions from the democrats that they could not obtain legislatively.
      
      I absolutely detest the Republican Right and I don't sit on the fence nor mince any words about it.

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      wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      "Then, when looking at the current Stock Market, it had record growth up until ... Russia declared an intent to invade Ukraine."
      
      Or...until Biden and liberals injected trillions of $$ into the economy, without a return, directly causing massive inflation and an increase in interest rates.
      
      Personally, I find it fascinating that people pretend that the most common cause of inflation (increased demand/decreased supply) is not the cause of our inflation, even though it absolutely happened.  As you say; if it's bad it's because of someone else even though my actions is the direct cause.

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         Valeantposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         When did Biden and the liberals inject those trillions?  Nine months before the fall.  And how many trillions exactly, since you say it's multiple, I'm sure you have those stats and wouldn't exaggerate like you often tend to do?    Did the stock market fall when those 'trillions' went into the market?  No, the stock market reached record heights as that money helped reopen our economy.
         
         Putin announces an intent to invade Ukraine and the stock market drops immediately and has fallen since.  The war clearly had an affect on the supply side, as you note as a clear cause of inflation, but somehow can deny as existing when Russia starts a war with Ukraine.  Both global suppliers of gas and food.
         
         Your argument works if you can ignore the timeline and the supply effects of a war.  Which is something that you and many on the right at this site often love to do, omit pertinent facts to support flawed arguments.

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            Ken Burgessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            What silliness.
            
            Inject a couple trillion dollars into the economy, this dilutes the buying power of all dollars, otherwise known as inflation.
            
            When interest rates go up, strengthening the bond market, giving the option for firms and investors to put money into bonds that lock in 4 percent or more interest, they do so.
            
            When the fed gives investment firms trillions to invest into the stock market, like they did with Black rock, and then they cycle the money back, selling off those assets, the stock market goes down as those trillions are pulled out.
            
            11 trillion has been pulled from the stock market to date, part of that is the money the fed gave to large firms to invest during the pandemic to keep the market from crashing, the rest is money moving from stocks to bonds and higher interest earning options.
            
            Also, everytime they choose to spend trillions, like in the infrastructure bill, or whatever the newest spending spree was named, this is money they do not have, which raises the debt and lowers the value of the dollar... AKA inflation.

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            1. 75

               Valeantposted 2 years agoin reply to this

               I'll start with your last assertion first.  Unlike the GOP, that passes trillions in tax cuts on the false hope of stronger GDP to offset those cuts, false in that history had proven that hope to be unrealized over the past thirty years, the recent legislation had the means to pay for the expenditures.  And over time.  None of these proposals, aside from the first stimulus under Biden, 'dumped trillions' into the market immediately.  Like I note, there's always some far-right omission of fact that makes the argument flawed.
               
               It's just as likely that the loss of the supply side was the major cause to the inflation.  Oil production was cut in April of 2020.  Supply chains were decimated by the pandemic.  Hence, why it's a global issue.
               
               And you fail to address the timing of the market decrease completely in your blame game.  Another omission that does not support your theories.

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                  Ken Burgessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  Spoken like someone on the Far-Left would put it.
                  
                  I didn't type theories, just facts that I am aware of.
                  
                  Most don't know that the Fed gave trillions to investment firms like BlackRock to invest into stocks and housing to keep the markets from crashing during the pandemic.
                  
                  Now the Fed is taking those trillions back out of stocks and housing, selling off those assets, which is causing the crash we are contending with today.
                  
                  While doing that, the Fed is raising interest rates, this is not theory either, this also is fact.  With higher interest rates, firms, funds and retail investors choose to put money into bonds, notes, and bills, these investments are considered safer places to store wealth at the moment than the stock market.
                  
                  And whether it was Biden's Stimulus or Biden's Inflation Reduction Act, these spend/produce/create or however you want to define it, funds that are not there, essentially creating new money, which in turn dilutes the worth/value of the money already in existence... or in other words, creates Inflation.
                  
                  The prices of oil and gas... are more directly related to Biden and his relations with OPEC, Russia, Saudi Arabia... than interest rates or inflation, which is more on the Fed, but its OK to throw some blame Biden's way, he has done enough to make these matters worse, so he deserves whatever blame he gets.

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                  1. 75

                     Valeantposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     Ah yes, second post in a row started with an insult.  Solid trolling.
                     
                     Actually, most do know that the fed was pumping money into the economy to prop it up.  While you may think you were the only one privy to that information, it's fairly common knowledge.
                     
                     But where your theory falls short as to the cause of inflation, is that it only argues the money creation side while completely omitting the supply side as an option.  Those are the facts you cannot even acknowledge.  And that is where supply side, which is a global issue, actually does explain the global inflation that is being seen.
                     
                     You are only looking local to the US, while conveniently omitting a few of the right-wing money generations that occurred.  Just as I figured would happen.  Blame those you oppose while shielding those you adore.

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                  wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  "Supply chains were decimated by the pandemic."
                  
                  No, supply chains were decimated by an over reaction to the pandemic.  No virus held the ships at sea, no virus parked trucks and would not let them run.  That was strictly, 100% human caused.

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                     Valeantposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     Well, the 6.5 million dead people might disagree.

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                        wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        No (the dead do not agree or disagree).  Only those that don't bother to think about what they're saying.  There was not, and has never been, a virus strong enough to stop a truck from travelling down the road.  If you are not aware of it, a virus is microscopic in size, not the size of an elephant, and there are no viruses with the strength of superman.

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                           Valeantposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                           Oh, I forgot, trucks drive themselves in your fantasy world.  Didn't really bother to think about what you were saying there, did you?

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                              wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                              The viruses got into a team, like football, and pushed the truck so hard it wouldn't move?
                              
                              What are you really trying to say?

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                                 Valeantposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                                 You've gone into the ridiculous again, arguing about nothing.  Time to cut off the conversation.

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                     Fayetteville Fayeposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     Let's not forget the impact of China's zero covid policy that I believe  continues to this day.

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                        wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        Sure thing - the US was not alone in closing down manufacturing, travel, almost anything but health care.  And government - must have politicians telling us what to do in order to survive.

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                           Fayetteville Fayeposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                           You live in a similarly Red State as I do. Did you see any prolonged shutdowns in your state? I didn't. When they did happen they were few and didn't last very long.  Many small businesses never closed at all in my area.

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                           1. 91

                              wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                              Yes.  Quite a few businesses were closed for months in our town.  Schools were closed for a year or better, meaning jobs for janitorial and landscaping all went with them even though the kids went on line to learn.

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                              Ken Burgessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                              Review how CA, NY, NJ, and many other Red states handled it.  Not well.

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                                 Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                                 Please add Michigan to the list... We had some of the worst measures and the at many times during the pandemic some of the worst death tolls.

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               Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

               As Biden spoke today giving us the news he will dump more of our reserves onto the market Oil started to go up as he spoke. He makes his own problems, in my view.   https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/bide … 022-10-18/
               
               The API came out with an immediate statement, within minutes after Biden's speech today.
               
               "WASHINGTON, October 19, 2022 — American Petroleum Institute (API) President and CEO Mike Sommers today issued the following statement in response to President Biden’s remarks on gasoline prices:
               
               “Increasing energy demand and constrained supply coupled with geopolitical instability and faulty policy decisions have driven fuel prices higher. At a time when American energy can be a stabilizing force at home and abroad, we urge caution in continuing to rely on short-term efforts that are no substitute for sound long-term policies that enable American energy leadership.
               
               “The administration should instead focus on addressing the fundamental economic and security challenges we face by spurring more investment in American energy, infrastructure and markets that enable U.S. consumers to benefit from America’s reliable energy resources.”
               http://www.api.org/news-policy-and-issu … ine-prices
               
               He makes enemies not friends. And I must say enemies that can crush him, along with OPEC.

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                  Valeantposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  Yeah, not surprising that this would be the statement of the API.  This is who they are:
                  
                  The American Petroleum Institute (API) is the largest U.S. trade association for the oil and natural gas industry. It claims to represent nearly 600 corporations involved in production, refinement, distribution, and many other aspects of the petroleum industry. Much of its work has been dedicated to the advancement of climate change denial and blocking of climate legislation to defend the interests of its constituent organizations.
                  
                  And again, you either understand that man-made climate change is real and groups like OPEC and API are going to resist it because it hurts their bottom line, or you don't and keep listing these stories in an attempt to undermine the goals of trying to fight what everyone acknowledges.
                  
                  Of course these people are going to come out against politicians that don't want to see the world burn.  We don't need you listing who they are to us every five minutes.

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                  1. 86

                     Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     I have the right to post here as much as you do. My point was ---  Biden makes enemies not friends. And I must say enemies that can crush him, along with OPEC. 
                     
                     My point, a when begging for oil, one might want to work with who can provide it.   It is clear Biden is trying to obtain oil for American consumption at this point. Might want to use a better strategy.
                     
                     In my view, Biden is a poor leader, in that regard. You won't care for this, but, the oil industry will be mostly responsible for the Democrat's demise in the next couple of years. Do you think they did not plan to push up gas prices? Do you think they would just close up the shop? 
                     
                     To be realistic, the majority of Americans are hurting due to inflation, and just want it to be fixed.  Not many are thinking about the climate when they fill up.

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                        Valeantposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        Yes, you have the right to post.  But make a point once.  You make the same point daily in every thread possible.  That the gas and oil industry is going to attack anyone who tries to make policies to combat the man-made climate change that their industry causes.  We all understand it.  It's a natural causation. Personally, I'm siding with the people taking steps to help the planet.
                        
                        And yes, many other people are concerned with that issue.

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                           Fayetteville Fayeposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                           I think the oil companies are going to attack anyone who prevents them from making hand over fist profits even when it hurts a population.

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                              Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                              Yes, Faye, this is foremost what I have been saying. They will fight like hell, and make all attempts to push the Democrats out due to their Green agenda. Not discussing it won't make it go away.
                              
                              I have not shared my thoughts much on climate, I think it is a real issue and needs addressing with common sense policies.  The plan should be a well-laid-out plan in my view. No jumping in head first, and not knowing there is actually water in the pool.

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                              GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                              There must be a good sarcastic reply for that "hand-over-fists" profits thought,  but I'm not up to it.
                              
                              To the 'hurting the population' thought, it sounds like you think they should be more selfless and altruistic. You know the mandatory question that raises.
                              
                              Folks talk about 'propaganda' that other folks believe, and then do the same thing. Can you support your 'greedy heartless corporations' implication with something more than perception?
                              
                              GA

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                                 Valeantposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                                 Like figures from settlements of cigarette companies marketing to kids kind of 'greedy heartless corporations...'

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                           Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                           The information I offered in this thread was currant, actually, from a speech Biden gave on Oct, 19.  The issue of our gas prices is very current and changes almost daily. The problem is ongoing with new development, such as Biden announcing he will take more oil from the reserves, and the API statement.  my comment added a current event in the back-and-forth Biden is having with oil companies. I am sure in the next weeks we will see OPEC and our own American companies deal yet more blows.  It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. The strategies both sides will use. I don't intend to post anything on the subject unless we see something new, pertinent to the battle Biden and the oil companies are having.  This battle affects us all, does it not? 
                           
                           And yes I have also shared for months now that OPEC and the American oil companies would fight Biden's green energy policies. We don't disagree on the point. I don't ignore what they or what Biden is doing in this battle. I am very aware of what science claims in regard to climate/pollution problems. And have never denied the problems.
                           
                           That issue would make a good thread. I would think a lively thread.

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                              Valeantposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                              The battle is not new.  OPEC and API profits versus green energy policies would definitely be a decent thread on its own.  Posting a dig at Biden from the lobbying group for big oil appears as an attack.  And one we see often.  It gets old.
                              
                              I'm happy to hear that you accept man-made climate change as an issue.  Makes me wonder why you don't post things that attack the price gouging we see from big oil who are recording record profits.

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                                 Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                                 "The battle is not new. " 100%, and you would think any president would take that into account when dealing with them. Hey, pissing them off in my view is not the route one should take in problem-solving with the oil industry.
                                 
                                 No attack, just pointing out  Biden's strategy, and I will leave it up to others to ponder and come up with their own thoughts.
                                 
                                 I think even my current post gives proof of the Oil companies are more than willing to play as dirty as it gets. Realistically we all know they will fight to keep profits and hope to return profits to shareholders.
                                 
                                 I have pointed out before that I felt if Biden would have come out a bit slower, and handled things differently, he might have had a better outcome all around. He might have friends with many more Americans, and many more might have had his back.

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                                 1. 75

                                    Valeantposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                                    See, that's the point.  Trying to save the planet is going to piss them off, so that's unavoidable.  Either you believe that working to solve man-made climate change is worth it or you don't.  Clearly, the gas and oil industry doesn't care as they are attacking someone trying to work towards a more healthy world.
                                    
                                    And yes, you promoting the oil industry's propaganda at every turn is a means to undermine those that want a healthier planet.  Many are tired of slow walking climate change as the west burns and suffers draughts.  While acknowledging climate change, you're clearly not on board with solving the issue.  No surprise based on your continued votes for a party that are climate deniers.

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                                    1. 86

                                       Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                                       "And yes, you promoting the oil industry's propaganda at every turn is a means to undermine those that want a healthier planet."
                                       
                                       I don't see it that way. I see the truth, facts need to be apparent. One needs to know what they are dealing with before any problem can be solved. Just ignoring the glaring fact that the oil industry will fight tooth and nail will not make that fact disappear.
                                       
                                       Not undermining anyone, just bringing an ugly truth into the light.
                                       
                                       https://sciencing.com/toxic-chemicals-s … 18393.html
                                       https://medium.com/thebeammagazine/coba … 5a63e0f57c
                                       https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features … -landfills
                                       https://www.instituteforenergyresearch. … -minerals/
                                       
                                       My self, I feel our scientists are working on the technology to clearer fossil fuels that won't pollute the earth with the end waste we would see from wind and solar. Cutting down thousands of miles of trees, and using some of the most poisonous minerals to promote wind and solar will bring more problems than fossil fuels, in my view.

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                                          Valeantposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                                          But what you posted wasn't a fact, it was the viewpoint of the oil and gas lobbying industry.  By nature, that was opinion.  And just because you're dealing with resistance, does not mean you should ignore a glaring problem that is costing our country millions of dollars to combat.
                                          
                                          You've got a point about the byproducts of renewable energies, I'll have to give you that.  This is one of those arguing about the means, not the idea.

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         2. 91

            wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, the war has had an effect on the supply side,  A small one compared to the tens of thousands of jobs Biden shut down for COVID, but an effect. 
            
            And that means increasing demand played no part, right?  With the excuse that because inflation did not jump 5% on receipt of the first giveaway check to be received, it was not a cause.

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            1. 75

               Valeantposted 2 years agoin reply to this

               You have the stats to back up the supply issues versus the effects of 'tens of thousands of jobs Biden shut down' (likely another exaggeration since Biden's job gains have been historic).  So many far-fetched claims.
               
               Increasing demand and more dollars chasing less supply definitely had an effect on inflation.  But those localize factors do not explain the inflation as a global issue.  All the American right wants to do is ignore the problem as a world problem and paint it as a Biden issue.

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                  wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  What - you don't think Biden shut down jobs during the pandemic?  Or just don't want to talk about it - ignore it as if it didn't happen?
                  
                  Let me put it this way - without Biden's giveaway programs, whether stimulus or extra unemployment or free rent, there were have been no excess demand.  Demand would have fallen, not rose, as jobs shut down from COVID, even as supply dropped for the same reason.  To this day he doesn't appear to understand this most basic fact of economics - high demand with low supply = rising prices - and wants to repeat the error by simply giving money to people that made poor financial decisions (pay off student loans).
                  
                  Yes, the rest of the world has followed the US down the inflation road.  Some due to much the same problems in their own countries (govt. giving away vast sums without any return), some simply because the US did it.  Neither of which is an excuse for Biden to create these programs of freebies without any concern for the long term result...but that seems pretty common from liberals in general.  Fix today, worry about tomorrow when it gets here and then repeat the process.

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                     Valeantposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     I want you to back up your claim that Biden shut down 'tens of thousands' of jobs.  You always write in these vast exaggerated generalities that I don't think you have the data to back up.  Keystone - 1,000 jobs eliminated, around 7,000 temporary jobs lasting about two months each.  The amount of jobs being created with an actual infrastructure bill getting passed, microchip production being brought back to the US, and climate change being addressed more than offset those.
                     
                     Biden's giveaway programs?  As if they didn't also happen under Trump.  This is part of what I'm talking about.  Many on the right are such partisan hacks that they can discount the same things that occurred under their own leaders to cast blame.  And your claim that there would not have been extra demand as the economy reopened and people went back to work and their normal routines, despite supply no longer being there due to broken supply chains that were providing less than there was before the pandemic, seems like another example of not factoring in the supply-side of this equation.
                     
                     As to student loans, Biden is not giving anyone money.  He is giving relief.  Shortening the time that people will have to repay money that was already given.  It's not the new creation of money as they money was already put our years prior.  What this will allow is people to start building generational wealth as they get out of debt sooner and begin investing in homes or stocks.

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                        wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        I addressed this quaint idea that if you give it away once, and nothing terribly bad happens, you can do it again.  And again and again and again.  A really silly concept, isn't it?
                        
                        Yeah - he's giving "relief", not money.  Got it.  And by the way, I have a beautiful bridge for sale...  You could include the check for that along with the one paying off my mortgage.  And my car, allowing me to build "generational wealth" as I will have gotten them both for free instead of paying for them.  You can even pay off my credit card bills, making that generational wealth grow even faster!

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   Valeantposted 2 years ago

   Alaska's King and Snow crab seasons cancelled.  Warm water levels noted for the past three years.
   
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkGDQTUnEzQ&t=181s

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   Kathleen Cochranposted 2 years ago

   The Great Depression (Hoover), privatizing health care (Eisenhower), Watergate (Nixon), pardon for Nixon (Ford), Iran/Contra (Reagan), pardons for Iran/Contra (Bush I), Iraq War and financial crisis (Bush II), January 6 and the Big Lie (Trump and all the lawsuits he is now fighting).

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      DrMark1961posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      What is your point here? The drone double strike, perfected to kill the first responders (Obama), "I did not have sex with that woman" (Clinton), the Iran hostage rescue debacle (Carter), Vietnam (Johnson), the Bay of Pigs (Kennedy), using a nuclear weapon to kill civilians (Truman).
      Oh, about inflation...My wife is a big Eagles fan but I had the Tampa Bay Buccaneers over to the White House the other day. Ummm, what? (Uncle Joe.)

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