Against Israeli foreign policy without being AntiSemetic?
If you read the article and listen to the raving of the right winger, somehow they want to make the two separate concepts, inseparable. See the extremes they have taken against students that challenge a time worn American ideal, unerring support for Israel.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/writing-anti … 48055.htmlAt no time I've seen the worldwide media bring light to the darkness between Israel/Palestinians human struggle since 1948. Israel occupation of Palestinian is now triggered when the Israelis prime minister calls out the Palestinians as human animal. Which is true all humans are animals, yet not in a religious sense. When the leader adds sub human. Then Selective acknowledgement of humanity a grim sign of the times. Even Trudeau of Canada calls right wingers as Nazi's, racist, sexist, masagyinist, fringe group with unceptable views, I said the sex twice because Trudeau is at his happiest during LGBTQ pride and drag queen events There are extremist in every group, that should be called out and gotten rid of for these extremist negative persons views. Rather than cause great humiliation and total destruction for the Masses. Like also is happening right now in Gaza. The vast majority from all groups are rightfully mourn the Israelis murdered by Hamas. The 2 million Gaza citizens are not responsible for a few of the political leaders extremist that continue to demonstrate that Palestinians are acceptable collateral damage in this war, and that their lives are up to the whims of the Israeli government.
At universities across North America is a place traditionally has been open for all kinds of free speech on several topics. Even that has been blocked, banned on many topics and opposing views with physical violence and cancelling cultures online and political perspectives. Far too many people playing games on their phones. Not realizing they are being mass hypnosis with weapons of mass distractions for the wealthy who walk away with the power and money and give far less for us. Within a game of the matrix system.Not good and I am appalled frankly with the tactics being exercised. Talk about cancel culture to the extreme! Definitely solid evidence both sides use cancel culture tactics, right? I shudder wondering about being canceled sharing that position. Who knows?
They did exercise free speech and we all know that consequences many times tumble along with it. What alarmed me was they did it anonymously and therefore had an expectation of privacy as I see it. Maybe I got that wrong not being a legal eagle.
Thanks for sharing the article and giving perspective on the tumultuous times these days bring to us.I did read your article. I didn't see it as the ravings of a right-winger, so the assumption made is that your 'raving right winger' is anyone that disagrees with the 'students.'
Just for kicks, it might be worth the effort to look into those rich folks and firms mentioned. Are they Left or Right? Considering the setting; Harvard donors and board members; prestigious law firms, et al, "right winger" might not be an accurate label.
Doxxing is a bi-partisan tactic now, so that's a bit of a wash.
Actions have consequences. The 'letter' didn't criticize Israel's foreign policy, it said Israel was responsible for the massacre. There is a difference.
How far back do the students' reach for their basis for blaming Israel? To the 67' war? The 49' war? The UN creation of the state? Or even back to the Balfour letter?
Israel's creation, rather than its foreign policy seems more logically the reason for the students' letter. And, after watching nearly-live-action 'Breaking News' of the brutality of the terrorist acts, to react so strongly to the students' claim doesn't seem crazy, raving, or Right-wing.
GA"I did read your article. I didn't see it as the ravings of a right-winger, so the assumption made is that your 'raving right winger' is anyone that disagrees with the 'students."
No, It is the way the rightwinger responds to adverse opinion. Do you think that we can have difference of opinion without all of this? Isn't this the kind of stuff that Trump supporters do, right down to Jordan in the House of Representatives?
But within days, students affiliated with those groups were being doxxed, their personal information posted online. Siblings back home were threatened. Wall Street executives demanded a list of student names to ban their hiring. And a truck with a digital billboard — paid for by a conservative group — circled Harvard Square, flashing student photos and names, under the headline, “Harvard’s Leading Antisemites.” Has the left even approached this kind of behavior?
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I always assumed that the Academic milieu was a bastion of liberalism and left leaning politics, perhaps those that do the bankrolling are prepared to tolerate only so much of that in reality. When I was part of a MidEast studies seminar some 50'years ago writing an undergraduate thesis during the height of "Black Septemberist" politics of the mid 1970's, my otherwise flower children classmates turned on me like a nest of vipers at my very mention of Israel's possible complicity as part of the Middle East Crisis during the time.
I can go back to 1975 as there were issues there as to the land, its fair acquisition and settlement. U.S foreign policy always gave Israel the benefit of the doubt and in the world of real-politik, no one should be entitled to that. There have been many times that the U.S was the only one to abstain when the entire UN general assembly condemned Israeli behavior on more than one occasion. The US was the lumbering giant that allowed the miscreant to do whatever it wished on the playground, with impunity.
Israel's foreign policy is responsible for the massacre in a sense because of what is perceived as Israel's eternal intransigence regarding the Palestinians. With a hardliner like Netenyahu in charge, that may have been the straw that broke the camel's back.
Denying the rights of Palestinians and continuing to transgress and dispute over ownership of land fomented this confrontation.
Yes, doxxing is bipartisan, but extent and frequency matters. One side doing it once compared to other doing it 100 times is not the same. The Palestinians have their sympathizers, who want serious attention given to a fair solution in the region and not be left with the all or nothing solution put forth by conservatives on Israel's behalf all of the time. I don't get the sense that the students in question wanted Israel to disappear. They have had 75 years to make a fuss over that and they had not.What, " is the way the rightwinger responds to adverse opinion"? Surely you don't think seeing the 10/7 attack as a terrorist attack and seeing it as historically justified 'resistance' is simply a difference of opinion?
The historical justification of 'Israel's past sins' argument (the justification the Palestine supporters seem to be promoting) boils down to 'He had it coming . . . so . . . ' Is that a rationalization you would accept in this circumstance?
If that works, it should work both ways — Hamas is responsible for all the Palestinian deaths caused by Israeli actions because . . . they been rocketing Israel for years, 'They had it coming . . .'
GAThe contentious issues are not just things of the past they are continuing and have been ongoing.
It looks like your point is that Israel's past, and current, sins justify the anger of the Palestinians. That is a decades-long argument that is better handled by folks who know what they are talking about. I only know enough to believe there are two sides and both have degrees of validity. So I'm sticking to the thing about right-winger raves over opposing opinions.
If doxxing is discounted because both sides do it, and if the public presentations of the students' info doesn't violate any privacy issues, what is the response that you said was the right-winger norm?
Isn't the 'difference of opinion' simply whether this massacre was a terrorist attack or an act of resistance? Is it "raving" because only right-wingers would see it as a terrorist attack? Surely you don't think there are any 'yeah but . . .' rationalizations that lead to a 'resistance fighter response?
GA"It looks like your point is that Israel's past, and current, sins justify the anger of the Palestinians"
What is the current issue with regards to Israeli settlements?
The United States is deeply troubled by the Israeli government's reported decision to advance planning for over 4,000 settlement units in the West Bank. We are similarly concerned by reports of changes to Israel's system of settlement administration that expedite the planning and approvals of settlements.Jun 18, 2023. This comes from the United States Department of State, an authority that I would certainly give some credence to.
This has been going on for many years.
Well, GA, under the circumstances as a Palestinian wouldn't your anger be justified?
Yes, both sides have valid points, so I am not so quick to absolve Israel of any and all blame for the present crisis.
My problem with the rightwing norm is the fact that they do violate privacy of the offending students. This is prevalent as modus operandi by the Right from Trump on down. There are many examples. Find me some from the Left at the same magnitude and extent?
It is both a terrorist attack AND an act of resistance. It is only "raving" because of the manner Rightwingers chose to attack the students in response.No, I would not find a level of anger that justifies the purposeful brutality of the massacre. That you pose that question says you think there is one.
And no, acts like this cannot be both. Shooting kids and burning families in their homes are not acts of resistance. They are purposeful acts of terror.
As to the violation of privacy angle, most stories about the actions said that all of the information in the 'doxxing' was publicly available. So, (and here's a cute stretch) the 'doxxers efforts could be accurately described as just promoting public information. We all know how valuable an informed public is. And you call that "raving." Geesh. ;-)
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GAThe wars between white settlers and indigenous people in this country is an example of what happens if you keep taking. Yes,I would employ violence against those that steal my land and leave me with no place to reside and live. They being tone deaf to every other means of persuasion. SO YES, I would. It is always easy to talk about moderation when your skin is not in the game. I see that far too often, these days.
And what about Isreali savagery , what are they doing to rescue non combatants women and children from war zones? As I am sure casulties for these exceed that of Israelis.
I don't know how sending threats to my family member, etc can be considered public information. And even if it were, isn't that a bit below the belt, to threaten a brother for an offense of his sister.
But, such is the way of the Rightwinger...This is going as badly as I thought it would. I should have stuck to the "raving right-winger" thing. How about a restart with some more definition?
You say you would use violence against a man trying to steal your land. So would I. But, if you couldn't get to that 'man' would you get to his family? His wife, kids, his grandparents?
That seems too simplistic to apply to the levels of violence and grief in this Israel example but it does represent the basic question of this conflict: If someone kills your wife would you kill his wife?
Consider this; the news is full of images of the grief, anguish, and brutality of and against the civilian Israeli families in the Hamas attack. Also promoted recently is the image of a devastated Palestinian father holding his dead toddler son, standing in the rubble of a bombed building that crushed the rest of his family.
There is no difference in the magnitude of grief, anguish, and sense of injustice suffered by both. The only difference is the cause of the tragedy.
Neither of us is qualified to claim understanding. So, we can only argue the basics of the concept (your 'man trying to take my land' qualifier).
The choice is 'you killed my son so I will kill your son,' or 'you killed my son so I will kill you.' Do you see a level of anger where, when you can't get to the man, you decide you're justified to kill his son as compensation?
GAIn jest, though introspective, while going off-topic, maybe the following may apply . . . Quantum mechanics now says effect may precede cause instead of the traditional cause → effect. I wonder if that applies to the eye for an eye or tooth for tooth scenario?
In the quantum realm, cause doesn’t necessarily come before effect by New Scientist on Jan 15, 2020.
"In everyday life, causes always precede effects. But new experiments suggests that no such restriction applies in the quantum world"
I bring this up only as supposedly science explains everything, right? The article shared is only a portion. To read the whole article requires a subscription. However, next is a quote from it;
"Physicists have started to realise that causality might not be as straightforward as we thought. Instead of cause always preceding effect, effects can sometimes precipitate their causes. And, even more mindbogglingly, both can be true at once. In this version of events, you would be opening the fridge because the butter was already on the table, and your toast would be perfectly golden both before and after you put it in the toaster. You wouldn’t just be making breakfast – your breakfast would also be making you.
Playing fast and loose with causality does more than make for confusing mornings. It could shake physics Perhaps Life, eh? to its very foundations. No longer having a definite order of events goes against the picture of the universe painted by general relativity, and even hints at a reality beyond quantum mechanics, the best model we have of the subatomic world."umm . . . okay . . . Is that relative to that Schrodinger guy's cat?
GA"Neither of us is qualified to claim understanding. So, we can only argue the basics of the concept (your 'man trying to take my land' qualifier).
The choice is 'you killed my son so I will kill your son,' or 'you killed my son so I will kill you.' Do you see a level of anger where, when you can't get to the man, you decide you're justified to kill his son as compensation?"
The off-topic response was to the quote above. I saw, though you may not have, a connection, especially in light of the divine as espoused by both sides of the conflict.
In other words, using the information I shared, did effect lead to cause instead of cause to effect?Got it, now. On this issue, I don't see how the 'effect' would precede the 'cause.' That's just a shot from the hip but I think it's valid for the real world (the quantum world isn't our real world—yet?)
GA
Understood, GA
Stealing my land is act of war in my opinion. War involves attacking an enemy anywhere and anyplace it hurts and can affect a change in behavior. Massacres are oftentimes involving desperate people and I say that peace without justice and FairPlay intertwined is always a just pipe dream.
If someone killed either my wife or son, I would be morally justified to kill him or her. But, I qualify that based upon circumstances and the situation surrounding it. But, we all know that such a first degree murder attempt would be against the law, I don't want to be accused of being a vigilante.
Yes, the causes of the tragedy are necessarily just black and white, either.
The old saying goes, if you want peace work for justice, because the "peace" of endless subjugation and exploitation is a mere illusion.The issues today... which all seem to be frothing up now... have existed for a long time.
Ukraine and Russia... a divide of cultures and histories, Russian and Lithuanian/Polish... Crimea, having always been autonomous or part of Russia, even when ceded over to Ukraine in the 50s by Nikita Khrushchev, (which was not terribly important when considering the grand scheme of the USSR) there was never a forced conversion or assimilation.
Tiawan and China... America has let than one simmer since day one, recognizing the "One China" policy and now wanting to choose otherwise.
Israel and Palestine... a conflict that has never ended, it dies down and then flares back up.
Serbia and Kosovo... no one is talking about that in America, but there are military deployments and issues going on there as well.
What is causing all of these issues to conflate at the same time?
I think the biggest factor is America, its terrible decision making, especially in regards to choosing war with Russia over negotiating a peace and getting trade and relations back to normal.
Our economy and that of the EU could be doing much better if we had. The willingness of other nations to listen to America now would be as well.
America has no leg to stand on when asking others to negotiate, to compromise, we out right refused to do any of that with Russia, we deliberately supported the sabotage of the Minsk II Agreement.
The rest of the world recognizes this, the rest of the world is tired of America's hypocrisy, and the leadership we have today in DC, across the board, is the worst in living memory.
Things will only get worse from here... Biden is not just corrupt, but his administration is woefully incompetent and incapable of handling the issues at hand.The issues today... which all seem to be frothing up now... have existed for a long time.
What is causing all of these issues to conflate at the same time?
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Mere coincidence, as I have not seen any reasonable alternative outside of just bashing Biden and the Democrats.
Want to talk about corrupt? You have a House of representatives that cannot seem to get its House in order and get on with the nation's urgent business.You would be correct, I am putting the blame on the Biden Administration.
What we see occurring, is like a Domino effect, or maybe like the ripples in a pond when you throw a stone in... a little of both.
The war in Ukraine and the dishonorable way we withdrew from Afghanistan set the tone for the administration and sent a message to the rest of the world.
This statement was made in February 2021, before any military escalation by Russia:
"The United States does not and will never recognize Russia’s purported annexation of the peninsula, and we will stand with Ukraine against Russia’s aggressive acts. We will continue to work to hold Russia accountable for its abuses and aggression in Ukraine."
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-roo … f-ukraine/
This was the message to Russia, as well as many other statements by Biden during that time as Putin tried to negotiate for his Nation's interests, as he tried to get Ukraine to adhere to the Minsk Agreement. Biden's consistent message was essentially "we are coming for Crimea" and we are not negotiating on ANY of your concerns.
The Biden Administration chose the path we are on, how he has interacted with Russia, Saudi Arabia, China, etc.
It also sends a message to others in the world, you can stand up to America's interference. Afghanistan and Russia are very visible examples of this."You would be correct, I am putting the blame on the Biden Administration."
That's our difference, Ken, you do and I don't.
How long have we been snarled in Cold War politics over at least of score of Presidential Administrations? Why is it so difficult to not see the implications of allowing Russia or anyone else the ability to attack and annex territory of another country? What would you tell the EU or NATO?
But, I would have to brush up on the points that you are making to give a cogent reply.
Haven't we always been interfering?That is day old baloney Credence.
It is really simple... all we had to do is accept that Russia was going to continue to remain the dominant influence in the region, all we had to do is back off our efforts to swing Georgia and Ukraine into "Western" influence.
All we had to do was tell our puppets in Ukraine that we were not interested in war with Russia and to accept the negotiated Minsk II Agreement, accept the secession and acceptance of Crimea into the Russian Republic, and go about our happy lives of plenty.
The Biden Administration chose war, the Biden Administration told Russia there was no compromise, no negotiation, that Crimea was going to be taken back.
Well so far there are half a million dead, another million forever crippled, several million refugees... and Ukraine has now lost a size of its country even larger than Crimea was.
This is due to the arrogance and idiocy in control of America's government today.
A wise leader would have compromised and maintained world peace, tens of millions of Ukrainians would be better of for it, the world economy would be better off for it, and things that are escalating out of control elsewhere would either not be happening or would be easier to deal with as we wouldn't be exhausting our resources on a pointless war."A wise leader would have compromised and maintained world peace, tens of millions of Ukrainians would be better of for it, the world economy would be better off for it, and things that are escalating out of control elsewhere would either not be happening or would be easier to deal with as we wouldn't be exhausting our resources on a pointless war."
You would see it this way as a Russian sympathizer.
Many Russians talk about reestablishing the old USSR. Some are quite obsessed by it. Captured Russians high-ranking officers often talk about the plans to invade Europe beyond Ukraine. In the beginning, they felt Ukraine would fall in less than two months and they would move on from there. Weren't the Russians surprised at how Ukrainians were willing to fight to defend their land?
"Russian General Admits Ukraine Just a 'Stepping Stone' to Invade Europe
A key Russian general who Russian President Vladimir Putin promoted this week views the invasion of Ukraine as a mere "stepping stone" to further conflict with Europe.
Putin launched the full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, sparking fears from many analysts that the Kremlin may have greater ambitions beyond taking control of its former Soviet neighbor. Russian commentators and lawmakers have often heightened those fears with their anti-North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) rhetoric throughout the war—routinely encouraging direct strikes on European and even American targets.
This week, Putin promoted Lieutenant General Andrey Mordvichev to the rank of Colonel-General. The military leader had already been serving in the role of commanding the Central Military District and Russian Central Grouping of Forces in Ukraine.
In a recent interview with Moscow's state-run Russia-1, a clip of which circulated widely on social media Saturday, Mordvichev said he believes Putin's war will last quite a long time and expand in the future.
"I think there's still plenty of time to spend. It is pointless to talk about a specified period. If we are talking about Eastern Europe, which we will have to, of course then it will be longer," the general said.
"Ukraine is only a stepping stone?" the interviewer then asked.
"Yes, absolutely. It is only the beginning," Mordvichev responded, who went on to say that the war "will not stop here."
So, those who are not influenced by Russian propaganda understand how important it is to stop Russia in Ukraine. The Ukraine army is keeping the rest of Europe from facing an all-out war with Russia.
I read about the war daily. All of the latest attempt by the Russian army to go on the offensive have been stopped. They've tried many things in many ways and all have failed. The Ukraine army continues to advance, however slightly, in the war.
If Russia wasn't run by a dictatorship, the population may rise up against putin for this.
Ukrainians know what it is like to live under Russian dominance. This is the motivation to fight so hard.Looks like a bunch of worthless propaganda to me.
I believe that as much as I believe Biden is a good president.
There are two primary issues here and they always were part of the bigger picture.
Ukraine cannot defeat Russia.
Putin will not live forever.
The Neocons who wanted this war, the puppets like Biden, Clinton, etc. who have fostered and cultivated the means for this war for over a decade before it began, are the real villains.
There would have been no war, if America's efforts in Ukraine did not precipitate it.
If left to their own devices, if not forced, Ukraine would have eventually found its way, Putin would have eventually passed away, the world would have moved on.
Instead divides between cultures were pressured within Ukraine, a nation which is not a nation built on common history and culture, but a hodge podge of cultures that have clashed and warred against one another for centuries.
Much like the Kurds fight against the Arabs, the ethnically Russian fight against the ethnically Polish/Lithuanian within the country.
https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022 … 20Madness'
You like to ignore the real facts of what are some of the root causes of the problems in this war Mike, and you like to ignore that the region controlled by Russia now is full of ethnic Russians, who have ties to Russia, and who don't exactly want to be part of Ukraine.
Russia has taken in 2.8 million Ukrainians that have fled the war, they chose to flee to Russia, they weren't forced to go there... no Mike, I know better than most Americans what is going on and why in Ukraine.
I'll give your propaganda due consideration when I see Russia moving beyond securing the Russian speaking, Russian sympathetic parts of Ukraine that it is holding now.
The other reality of this, is IF Russia was trying to take over Europe, they are doing a horrible job of it.
They are either terribly inept and not a real threat, as they cannot even defend/deter Ukraine from attacking within Russia itself... or they are trying to defend and hold the ethnically-Russian areas from Ukraine and have no real desire to do much else.
They can't be both a serious threat that has to be stopped, no matter what, yet remain in essentially in the same state (holding the same ground) for two years now.
So you would feel morally justified in killing the killer of your wife. So would I. Legal and moral law be damned.
Also, wars do involve attacking an enemy wherever you can. I would. But the wife or child of my enemy is not my enemy.
You didn't finish your answer. You would feel morally justified to kill the killer, but what about the other part — can you justify killing the wife or kid because you can't get to your enemy?
GALet me finish it, if under considerable duress, the man ceases to change course, then the things of value to him both physical and material are fair game.
I don't know that I could wage war on non-combatants, not deliberately. But, as collateral damage, I would have to accept having to do what it takes to get the "man's foot" from off of my neck.
And you have made a point, I would have problems deliberately killing women and children when i have a choice in the milieu of war.And you made a second point. You accept collateral damage (the civilians) in your actions to get the foot off your throat.
With Hamas rockets being Israel's 'foot on the throat' and Hamas using civilians as a shield, aren't the Palestinian deaths the same collateral damage you accept in other war situations? Doesn't Hamas' purposeful endangering of civilian lives bear on their responsibility for the Palestinian deaths?
GA
I am confused. Forgive me. Are you saying you approve of Doxxing no matter who uses it as a tactic some would say is terrorism? In other words, it is public anyway, so go for it. It is protected free speech, right?
Intent has no say in the discussion? Is there a line as to what information the doxxers release? Is it a question of morality? Ethics? As shared, it works both ways, and people on both sides suffer the results from it. I am left pondering.
Doxing Should Be Illegal. Reporting Extremists Should Not. by the ADL on Jan 15, 2021.
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/doxi … should-notThere was a joke about USSR. How much dose it cost to have a tooth removed in USSR, about a $100,000. Because you have to keep your mouth shut.
It's all reverse now in across Russia. Only 400 arrests for online options. In UK and America arrests are 100s of times greater and greater at ruining a person life.You are not confused. I do not approve of 'doxxing'. My only point was that the information released was already publicly available. Releasing it in a 'doxxing' manner is wrong but it isn't illegal.
That 'cute stretch' bit was just to lighten the tone created by the massacre discussion.
GA
Hamas' stated goal is the destruction of the Israeli state.
Hard to co-exist or come to terms with a "government" body (which it is within the Gaza strip) whose primary purpose of existence is to end yours.
The "who is right" argument is only going to be resolved when one or the other entity has been eliminated. The existence of Israel cannot co-exist with the existence of Palestine as they want to occupy the same territory to the exclusion of the other.
Much the same way Crimea cannot be both Russian and Ukrainian, it will be one or the other. Same way California cannot be part of Mexico one or the other.
The problems we are seeing today, are tragically comical considering the UN, WEF and our current Administration pursue the concept of a "borderless world"... where independent nations become responsible for anyone that crosses into their borders through agreement with the Global Compact on Migration.
Its likely why we are seeing so many problems arise in the world, we have an "elite" following their ideals for the world, deconstructing the very concepts that are what "nations" are supposed to be about, separate laws, cultures, identity... while at the same time pursuing wars everywhere across the globe.The Hamas is like both Government and a religion. Except Gaza voted for a most extremist religion hardline to fight their 75 years illegal apartheid. Which many Muslims countries do in translation of their country's Constitution. Zionism is a cult, that being a new religion invented in the 1800s or fake Jewish. I don't know what side is worse. Hamas is no strong nationalists interest like Zionist. Now that the BRICS and members are involved protecting the middle east. It's like a Mexican stand off. Who wins at this level, hardly no one.can really know.
Yes, as I had stated, the two cannot co-exist.
If you think America is divided and at war with itself, we have nothing on the divide between Palestinians and Israelis, it is not something that will "be fixed".
Hamas seems to have the single purpose of revenge. There isn't much conversation about Hamas being right in their actions, but plenty that tries to justify them.
Simply to illustrate, assume two 'givens': accept that Hamas' actions are purposely terroristic, and, that the results of Israeli actions equate to terrorism to its victims.
There is still a difference. One is purposefully intended to be terroristic and the other is a result — not an intention.
GAHamas exists to do away with the Israeli State... ultimately that is the simplification of their goal, and to re-establish the Palestinian State.
Israel exists to be exclusively a Jewish state. Not a everyone is equal, regardless of religion, nation like we have in America.
The two cannot exist in the same world. Some people understand this, Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu understands this. Yahya Sinwar understands this, his biography/history makes it completely understandable why he feels as he does.
The goal is to destroy the other, nothing less now is going to be found by these leaders. Anything else found by any who replace them, will only be temporary at best.
The Israelis, like Americans today, have ideas and beliefs that are disconnected from reality, and it shows in what they believe... for instance, as many as 80% of Israelis believe Netanyahu is responsible for the assault on Israel by Hamas, a poll in the Ma'ariv newspaper showed on Friday.
Its as if they are in denial of what Hamas is and what the conditions of the people living in the Gaza strip are.
Unlike in America, where anyone, regardless of race or religion, can make a life for themselves with enough determination and effort... Palestinians cannot do so in Israel.
The two states cannot co-exist... one eventually will destroy the other, these things will continue to occur until this happens.I don't even agree with a tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye. It's like both eyes and all of the teeth and whole body over Gaza now. I'd think an intelligent leader would say, fire your government Hamas and here don't cross this line we will Govern ourselves and you Govern yours. They rather fight than switch, like those camel cigarettes commercials . That has killed far greater than all wars combined ever.
At least no capital punishment in Canada works, It should apply to war also. If one country kills 20 to one ratio like Israel. That's called a serial killer, and should be put away for life and throw away the key. Exspeacilly recently, when half the population is children in Gaza bombing. When a palestinians kid throw a stone at an Israelis soldier. The Israelis would blow up your house and your mother. As a kids our rule was, not ever uses insults about our mothers.
Trudeau came along to screw up a almost perfect Canadian war record. Zenlensky and Trudeau won't be visiting Israel soon, drama bad boys, what you going to do.What ever happened to the "two state" solution? It can't happen if one side insists on having it all.
You can't have democracy without freedom of religion and equal rights. Israel can't have it both ways.
Netanyahu will be blamed for the assault, first for his intractable hardline politics regarding Palestinian concerns and second, his accused of failure to intelligence agencies under his control to have anticipated the attack.
Founding of the modern Zionist movement (1897–1917) Rothschild Zionist bought land in Palestine in 1917. Zionist is a naturalism front for Israel in 1947 occupation of Palestinian. Person can be an Antisemitism if against Arabs and Judaism . Zionist can be called Antisemitism toward them. Semitism can not be used for Zionist. Only persons against Zionist can be called an anti Zionist. The Zionist claim Israel the geography area, is under historical biblical claim as David of the Hollylands, (I say Hollywoo) The Hollylands is not true, because Zionist was invented in the 1800s. About 80% of population of Israel are Zionist
Zionism is a principle based on a religious doctrine that not all of us share. We have to get real with diplomacy and fair solutions and put fables aside.
I like that Castle, I am not anti-Semitic, but I am Anti-Zionist. I am not going to justify the taking of land from anyone be it by manifest destiny or Zionism.Why don't we put all these extremists religious type together. Who want to totally eliminate each other and their Faiths. To swamp area called Disney Hollylands and call them the :Fantasy Wars;
Even better let two leaders of each country into the ultimate fight cage. Two leaders enter only one leaves.
I could tolerate that rather 4000 Gaza citizens tortured and killed, half of them being under age 18. Bombing 22 clinics or hospitals and plenty of schools. They blame Hamas for some of the bombing. Just look at the bombing on video of Israel and Gaza, then tell me the difference.
After reading the article, I find myself questioning the involvement of individuals often labeled as "enthusiastic right-wing supporters" in the act of doxing. Do you feel all conservative groups are "raving right-wingers"? Notably, the discontented University donors primarily consisted of extremely wealthy individuals, many of whom practiced the Jewish faith. Notable figures like Bill Gates, Larry Summers, Mark Zuckerberg, Idan Ofer, and his wife, have even resigned from their positions on the Harvard board. It's worth noting that these prestigious institutions are typically associated with liberal leadership and substantial liberal financial support.
Regarding the issue of doxing, it's important to recognize that freedom of speech is a fundamental right available to all. Those who choose to express their views publicly should be prepared for the possibility of others engaging in open debate. Free speech often takes center stage, but individuals expressing their opinions should be resilient enough to withstand criticism and opposing viewpoints. Social media serves as a real-time platform where information spreads rapidly. The individuals who authored the letter likely understood the potential for their message to gain widespread attention. Hence, they should be prepared to accept the consequences of participating in this discourse.
In my perspective, it would have been prudent for these students to consider the fact that a significant portion of the donors are of Jewish descent. They might have displayed more empathy toward the sensitivities of this demographic. It appears that they could have taken their time to gather more information and provide a letter that was more considerate of the broader context.
Hey, anyone who shares their point of view should be ready to take personal responsibility for their statements, especially in a diverse and interconnected world. Both sides, left and right work hard to Dox anyone that does not agree with their views. This is just an ugly fact. These left-leaning students are not exempt. I can't even imagine how pissed off the various university boards are at these students.
The Hamas atrocities should speak the loudest at this time, not some college student's ideology BS from their safe little world.Well, Sharlee, perhaps under close evaluation these instutions are actually only as liberal as their bankrollers will allow. All these wealthy and influential men and women, getting bent out of shape because a few students express antiIsraeli sentiment? I thought Harvard was bigger than that? What could BLM have done with this kind of support?
Freedom of speech, yes. But that does not include threatening siblings and endangering students by exposing personal information which is unauthorized.
The Palestinian and their issues have been ignored for a considerable time.there are many Jews particularly here that do not support Republican, Netanyahu or Zionist politics.
When it comes to doxxing, the Right is far better at it.
No one is excusing Hamas and its actions, I certainly don't. But I am not so naive to think that Israel is always the innocent party when one bothers to look at the background."No one is excusing Hamas and its actions, I certainly don't. But I am not so naive to think that Israel is always the innocent party when one bothers to look at the background."
The question of whether Israel is guilty of provoking unrest is a complex and contentious one. It's important to acknowledge that perspectives on this issue can vary widely, and the answer depends on one's point of view and interpretation of historical events. History shows, and from what I have observed in the Israel-Arab conflicts, Israel has often been the target of one unprovoked attack after another. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has a long history marked by violence and disputes. But none so savage as what we witnessed last weekend.
I think it's crucial to emphasize that the recent conflict displayed extreme violence, and barbaric murder, which is indefensible. There is no justification for Hamas's actions, and those who attempt to rationalize that loss of life by referencing past conflicts, in my opinion, are failing to consider the gravity of the situation. (boy how do I say this) Their thought processes lack depth and thoroughness.I am not rationalizing past conflicts, but present state of affairs which are far from settled between the two groups.
Well, I will be honest, may have missed the context of your comment. " But I am not so naive to think that Israel is always the innocent party when one bothers to look at the background."
It seemed as if you might be saying in some respect that they may have reaped what they sowed. I don't think Israel has ever been accused of war crime atrocities such as what we witnessed from Hamas last Saturday.
I feel it is time we accept, and face what they did, and not offer any form of excuse for these kinds of war crimes. If we don't we are in trouble as a society.What is the current issue with regards to Israeli settlements?
The United States is deeply troubled by the Israeli government's reported decision to advance planning for over 4,000 settlement units in the West Bank. We are similarly concerned by reports of changes to Israel's system of settlement administration that expedite the planning and approvals of settlements.Jun 18, 2023
This is the kind of current affairs issue that show that the attack involved more than retribution. This has been going on for years. Even the US government has concerns about Israel stepping out of line in this process... how much would I have been willing to take from an entity that was not listening, continuing on a course that would lead to problems later?Once more, you are returning to past points to perhaps give shade to a terror attack on innocent citizens. From my perspective, your original post focuses on college students who posted a letter on social media and their subsequent discomfort due to doxing. In our private conversation, we diverged into discussing the motivations behind the letter and the associated protests, all within the context of free speech.
You are more than correct to bring up that the Israel-Palestinian and Arab conflicts have persisted for many decades. What I want to share, and emphasize is that the recent incident on 10/7 was not a typical example of a prior act of war between these warring factions.; it was a brutal attack on innocent men, women, and children simply because they were Jewish. These terrorists did not lobe missiles, they used knives, guns, gasoline, and a match to burn people alive. Realistically could there be any excuses for this?
This brings to mind a troubling parallel with the past, such as the historical atrocities, like the Holocaust in Germany. I don't believe my comment is exaggerated, as there are two crucial aspects to consider. First, there is the fact that a terrorist organization meticulously planned to harm Jews in the most heinous ways. Second, we have seen protests worldwide where some individuals appear to justify this attack. By referencing past conflicts and historical events, we risk inadvertently condoning or excusing the horrific acts we've witnessed.
History has shown that when society collectively rationalizes such acts, as seen with slavery or the Holocaust, it leads to a breakdown of humanity. When a person can find validation in a large group, committing atrocities may seem socially acceptable. This creates a dangerous mindset that not only excuses these acts but also garners support from a segment of society. This mindset is a significant concern for society as a whole, as it can lead to further division and violence.
I acknowledge the significance of free speech, and in this particular case, it has revealed that there is a considerable portion of society willing to rationalize the mistreatment of Jews, citing perceived historical injustices suffered by the Palestinians as their justification.
As always we have delved into a deep conversation, bearing all the roots. As you know, I appreciate digging deep. We have come full circle.
Is employing doxing an appropriate strategy when trying to address what seems to be an irrational perspective evident in this instance (referring to the letter blaming Israel for the attack on its citizens)? In my view, doxing represents a distinct form of punishment. I believe that the letter faced consequences due to its content; there's no necessity to dox its authors. The impact of their words on public opinion appears to be the most critical aspect here. Those who penned the letter must now contend with the public's judgment of their words.
Is it fair to give shade in any respect to such an attack on civilians?
And lastly --- Is there a line where freedom of speech becomes dangerous to society as a whole?Innocent citizens are always killed in a war, it is the nature of War. Hamas has declared war on Israel with this attack and certainly that was not wise and will end up allowing Israel the opportunity to raise the death toll for Palestine, effectively annihilating both their arguments and them as well,
Nobody is rationalizing it, it is reality of human nature, if you keep taking from me, I am going to respond in a not always pleasant fashion.
I don't believe that the students comments were irrational and think that bringing siblings and parents etc, "non-combatants" into this was unfair and unethical. You understand that regarding the Hamas attack, but the concept eludes you regarding FairPlay for student protesters?
I and others like me do not rationalize mistreatment of Jews, but have a bone to pick with Netanyahu and the Israeli government policies of stealing land and illegally creating settlements, which Trump has encouraged reversing an Obama polices of FairPlay for both sides in the region. And, as I mentioned before, these settlement policies are not merely points of history but are being practiced Right Now by the Netanyahu regime. By heeding the concerns of Palestine in the region, much of the wind could be taken from Hamas' sails. Rightwing Israel administrations have always used the threat of total annihilation from the other side to conveniently avoid seriously negotiating with Palestinians. It is an old trick, but I am on to it,
I fear that it is more dangerous for freedom of speech to be repressed,I realize people are killed in wars. Hamas murdered people.
" You understand that regarding the Hamas attack, but the concept eludes you regarding FairPlay for student protesters?"
Not sure how you came to that view --- Here is the view I shade on doxing.
"In my view, doxing represents a distinct form of punishment. I believe that the letter faced consequences due to its content; there's no necessity to dox its authors. The impact of their words on public opinion appears to be the most critical aspect here. Those who penned the letter must now contend with the public's judgment of their words."
I don't believe in doxing -- I feel actions will be doxed without any real effort. As in this letter, these students have made fools of themselves. I think words and deeds jump up and bit one in the ass... (I have been bit) No need to dox.
Hey, you are changing the subject of your own OP. The conflict between Jews and Arabs is a very different subject.Why should the punishment involve bringing people complete uninvolved subjecting them to threats and harassment? I don't want to be harrassed for something my sister did 2000 miles away. Let the student bear the brunt of their words, ok. I marched against Nixon back in 1974 from a college campus. One man's wisdom is another's fool's errand, who can really tell?
Yes, I have been known to meander once in a while on the forums. I don't need to adhere to structure, I would rather that people freely express themselves, regardless of the direction away from the beaten path.
I still think the overall ME conflict has to be a foundation for what happened at Harvard and why.I wholeheartedly agree—I want to emphasize that I do not support or endorse doxing in any way. I find it unjust and believe it has a chilling effect on individuals who are reluctant to express their viewpoints due to fear.
I am a strong advocate for free speech. I openly share my own opinions, and I've grown resilient to the prospect of being doxed. I can't fathom anyone who doesn't recognize that I express my views openly, and I've developed a level of indifference toward anyone who might attempt to dox me.
I take my medicine and move on. I love a conversation that is lively, and people that share different views than my own. I miss the days of my back-and-forths with the best component "Randy"... I would get kick the wall pissed at him. But he was always up for and prepared to have great conversations. I can't count the times I was banned/doxed due to our back-and-forths. Oh, the good old days.
Are those three questions at the end open game? I will interject with a reply to them so forgive me if out of line.
No, Doxxing is never ever acceptable as it is practiced today!! In my mind, it is done with terror as the intent. I don't care who does it! Therefore based on principle they are doing what Hamas is doing. Personally, I condemn that with the same rational reasoning I seek to use as well as the emotion of anger that is raised.
I am not sure what is meant by 'give shade'. If what is meant is what preceded the attack is not sufficient cause for the attack I would say it is a matter of viewpoint or opinion. Seems there are protesters saying there is and others not.
To understand who threw the first rock one might go back to when God told the Hebrews to wipe out the Canaanites and take possession of the land. They say both Jews and Arabs DNA is from Canaanites. So, in a manner of speaking, they are brothers and sisters. If so, then they certainly are a dysfunctional family, right?
Yes, free speech, can be a danger to society as a whole. You can't yell fire in a closed theater as they say, right? As far as doxxing is free speech, in principle, it is to an extent as I see it, yet to me as said its intent is terrorism. Definitely, IMHO.
As far as did the students have a right to exercise their free speech by writing the letter? Apparently, it was not free as they are paying a penalty for it now. In other words, there was/is a cost.So, pleased to see any and all get involved with this OP.
I don't agree with doxing. It seems to primarily serve the purpose of intimidating individuals from expressing their opinions openly. I believe that one's own authentic words should naturally attract a diverse range of views. However, it's worth noting that in this particular instance, the group posted their letter on their own Facebook pages, even though they initially claimed they wanted to remain anonymous.
I used the term "giving shade" to describe those who protest under the pretext that Israel was solely responsible for the attack. The facts tell us that the attack was not intended to target enemy soldiers but rather Jewish civilians in a horrific manner. I firmly believe that this fact should not be disregarded, placed in a different context, or given shade. Those who attempt to do so are essentially making excuses for the barbaric actions by attributing the killings to past conflicts between Israel and the Palestinians. While various people hold different views, some rely on this historical blame game. Sadly, some individuals resort to extreme, offensive rhetoric like "Gas the Jews." However, there can never be a valid excuse for the heinous acts committed on that fateful Saturday morning, in my view.
Undoubtedly, these students are facing consequences, such as being doxxed by potential future employers and facing scrutiny from various quarters. Free speech can indeed come at a high cost. They expressed an unpopular viewpoint, and as young adults, perhaps they could have conveyed their thoughts in a more accessible and thought-out manner.
I quickly scanned over the article and a lot of different things were thrown in which makes the article a ratatouille of concepts.
Imo the students have all the right to say what they want. Students are the ones who oppose government points of view. And you always need these opposite points of view to keep the debate going.
In this case, it's stupid to say that people who are against the Israeli government are anti-Semitic. It's just as stupid as to say that someone who opposes a political point of view from someone who happens to be Jewish is an anti-Semite.
Nevertheless, Anti-Semitism and bias are sometimes latent in persons without knowing. Same as some people would never call themselves racist but still act racist in certain circumstances.
And why can't you condemn Israels military actions and Hamas military actions at the same time?
It's a complicated story. And if you ask me personally, I think that one of the reasons for this mess is that the designers of the land Israel made a terrible job out of it. Best to start from scratch again, but that's an impossibility I'm afraid.The Prime Minister of Israel wants Gaza citizens to live in tents wal they build back better. It's why Gaza tunnels stretch every where in their prison. They had too , to smuggle supplies for their survival into their concentration camps.
I apologize to my forum participants. After viewing some background on Hamas, they have proven to be worse than I believed. They are there to sow seeds of ferment and really couldn't care less about the Palestinians and their issues. Hamas and Palestinian grievances are two different things. Being compared to ISIS, I can only hope at this juncture that the Israeli government ferrets them out and eliminates them with a minimum of collateral damge.
That does not change the grievances in the region stemming from the endless Israeli land grabs, but Hamas appears to be in its aim to destroy Israel dragging in a international conflagration. I don't trust American bias about this designation of Hamas as terrorist, but that has been corroborated by Europe as well, for which I give greater credibility to as a rule.
Please accept my apologies for misjudging these people. Regardless, students still have the right to express their opinion, however wrongheaded.Don't have to apologize for their Gaza cluster f_ for 75 years. Many of my best art works come out of terrible mistake and accidents, it's how we gracefully handle it, that counts . Sometimes it takes a very traumatic world events or personal tradgy to bring all of us to a higher energy level than ever before. Hitler tried to stomp out gays, Jew's and atheist. They all came back stronger than ever. I just don't count Zionist as Jew's.
Whatever works, keep up the good intentions.
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