The ongoing debate about the H-1B visa program has sparked some attention, but much of the current media coverage is missing the broader point raised by both Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy. While they acknowledge the importance of addressing the immediate need for foreign talent through visa programs, they stress an equally important issue: the U.S. cannot afford to fall behind in critical fields like technology and engineering. Both Musk and Ramaswamy argue that the long-term solution lies not just in hiring foreign workers, but in creating a system that encourages more Americans to pursue these high-demand careers.
Elon Musk has expressed concern over the "permanent shortage of excellent engineering talent" in the U.S., suggesting that without global recruitment, the U.S. risks falling behind in technological advancement. He compares this need to a sports team recruiting the best athletes to ensure success. Similarly, Vivek Ramaswamy has pointed to a cultural issue, arguing that America’s focus on mediocrity rather than excellence contributes to the country’s lack of top-tier engineers. For both, the H-1B visa program is a necessary tool to fill the gap, but it should not be the long-term solution.
Their position, however, has faced pushback, especially from some conservative circles, who worry that relying on foreign workers could undermine American labor and culture. Critics fear that such an approach may depress wages and displace domestic workers.
At the heart of this debate lies a critical question: How can the U.S. better prepare its workforce to compete in a rapidly changing global economy? While Musk and Ramaswamy support the use of foreign talent to address immediate needs, they emphasize that the real challenge lies in revamping the U.S. education system and cultural attitudes toward high-skill fields. Without addressing this underlying issue, they warn, the U.S. risks falling behind not only in technology but also in the race for global economic leadership.
Questions to Consider:
How can the U.S. education system be reformed to better prepare students for careers in high-demand fields like technology and engineering?
Should the U.S. rely more on foreign talent to fill job shortages currently, as we build our American workforce to fill more of these highly skilled jobs?
How can American culture be shifted to prioritize excellence in technical fields without diminishing the value of other types of work?
Is there a long-term solution that balances the need for foreign workers with the necessity of building a self-sustaining, highly skilled American workforce?
My two cents---Bringing other variables into this discussion doesn't change the reality that, as a nation, we simply do not have enough qualified workers to fill not only high-tech jobs but many positions across various industries. While it would be ideal to hire Americans, the fact remains that if qualified candidates are not available, these critical jobs must be filled. The shortage extends beyond tech and engineering, impacting sectors from healthcare to manufacturing. It's important to recognize that foreign workers are playing a crucial role in addressing these gaps, and while training and education should be prioritized for the future, we cannot overlook the immediate need for skilled talent.
First, explain to this ignorant old fool why Musk and Ramaswamy are even in this arena of contention? I thought their task was DOGE? Shouldn't they be focused on that? Or, is the H-1B Visa program integrated into trimming spending by 2 trillion? If, so how? What am I missing?
More importantly... I'm willing to bet Trump didn't follow the Equity guidelines in the appointment process.
Just as we were reaching a new awareness within our government, where people could feel safe knowing that there would always be a certain percentage of people hired based on being Trans, or Non-Binary, or even just a woman who identifies as a person of color.
The world has had enough of sexism and racism... and education qualifiers and titles like engineer or mathematician are just racist code words, titles given out to keep the oppressed down.
Once again... we must suffer under the white man's oppression... where diversity is stifled and bigotry reigns supreme... its deplorable.
Hi, hope you're having a fun holiday season.
Some may feel that Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy shouldn’t even be commenting on the issue of the H-1B visa program, especially since their public personas are more associated with technology, cryptocurrency, and now DOGE. Vivek Ramaswamy and Elon Musk do not technically work for the government. Both are private citizens who run their companies and are not government employees or officials.
It’s important to remember that both Musk and Ramaswamy are citizens first, and have always shared their views on a wide range of topics beyond just business or crypto. They’re public figures with significant influence, and as such, they have the right to express their opinions on issues that affect society at large. Free speech allows them to share their thoughts on immigration, the economy, and technology, which are all connected to their industries.
Both Musk and Ramaswamy also have direct experience with the current challenge of finding qualified workers for their own companies. Musk, through Tesla and SpaceX, has faced ongoing struggles to find skilled engineers, AI experts, and other high-tech talent. Similarly, Ramaswamy’s business ventures have required access to top-tier professionals, particularly in fields like biotechnology and healthcare. Their firsthand knowledge of these difficulties gives them a unique perspective on the importance of the H-1B visa program in addressing the shortage of high-skilled workers in the U.S. Can we ignore the current issue we face?
They support the H-1B visa program because they believe it’s critical currently to prevent the U.S. from falling behind in technology and innovation. Musk and Ramaswamy argue that without more skilled foreign workers, U.S. companies could lose their competitive edge, and will fall further behind in fields like artificial intelligence, engineering, and space exploration. While some critics argue that the program could suppress wages for American workers, Musk and Ramaswamy believe that attracting top talent is essential to maintaining technological leadership and fostering economic growth. So, while their focus may not always be on things like DOGE or crypto, their views on the H-1B visa issue reflect their broader concerns about U.S. competitiveness in a rapidly advancing global economy. I think one might keep in mind, that both have long complained about our problems with education in America.
I guess a good question would be how can we as American produce qualified workers, not ask companies to fall behind due to lack of suitable workers. Many argue that migrant workers are needed for jobs no one will do---- low-wage jobs that migrants will do. We have a problem filling high-wage skilled jobs too...
I have mentioned my son owns a software company, he has a true problem finding skilled Americans, he would be out of business if not for very skilled foreigners. These workers are valued and hired at the same wage,( sometimes more due to experience) as American workers and receive all the same benefits. If not respected in this way, they can easily pick up jobs elsewhere with ease due to the shortage of high-tech workers.
Tesla and SpaceX, like many other tech companies, are required to comply with the Department of Labor's regulations for the H-1B visa program, which includes paying workers the prevailing wage for their specific occupation and location. This ensures that foreign workers are paid fairly in comparison to their U.S. counterparts.
This latest media blitz shows they did little research into the issue. I wish the media would stop pushing distractions and focus on the real problem. The truth is, we’re not providing the education opportunities needed to fill these high-tech jobs. Most young people can’t afford to attend a university. Instead of playing the blame game, maybe we should focus on fixing the root of the problem. If we address the lack of accessible education, we could cultivate more skilled workers for the high-tech industry.
Looking at a big problem is harder than just pointing at two guys that can truly due to experience be able to tell us what the problem is.
Thanks for the detailed and thorough reply. BTW . . . as Musk and Ramaswamy have free speech so does everyone. They are not unique having anymore or any less than anyone else including me. Yes, yes they can stick their noses in anything they want and I will chuckle too as I observe chaos theory unfold while entropy seeks to predict the future.
Tick, tock the clock says. Just a few more days and Father Time will usher in 2025. Oh No! Or, is it Hooray? Decide!
Quick question---do you feel as heads of large tech-related companies their views come from good experience and knowledge on the subject of hiring H1B1 workers?
"The truth is, we’re not providing the education opportunities needed to fill these high-tech jobs. Most young people can’t afford to attend a university."
Highly disagree. Very nearly everyone has the same opportunity IF they have the qualifications to enter a university. (If the don't they can get those qualifications). All can afford a college education today IF they want an education AND are willing to work (and work very hard) for it. Between grants, loans, parents, the GI bill and jobs it can always be done, and done without massive debt when finished. Both my son and my grand daughter have finished college nearly debt free; both did it by holding a full time job while attending college. My son had a family of 4 to support as well, but also had the GI bill to help. The grand daughter was homeless when she started school.
Both have done well in their education, and one has gone on to get a masters degree, while climbing the corporate ladder in a 40 hour job and raising 5 children.
Don't tell me it can't be done. It can, but ONLY if a person wants it enough to work for it.
I understand the point you're making. I had hoped my original post would spark more discussion about the current media focus on Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy. My intention was to highlight the ongoing issue that we don't have enough citizens to fill high-tech, medical, and similar positions, making it necessary to hire skilled H-1B1 workers to keep companies operational. The statistics support their argument, and I agree with their sentiments. Both have stated that they make every effort to hire Americans, but there simply aren’t enough to fill these jobs. I can agree that if someone is determined and works hard, they can achieve a good education. However, for several reasons, we just don’t produce the numbers needed to fill these high-skilled roles.
On a serious note... yes, H-1B immigration is of value.
Open Borders... or ease of immigrants to gain entry in any form... is very bad for "working class" Americans and 'poor' Americans.
Again... I'll offer a time stamp to the specific moment where Batya Ungar-Sargon explains how this is devastating to the wellbeing of our country on the whole, and to the "working class" in particular:
https://youtu.be/SVO8RgQ9iSg?t=1236
As she noted... "the more you have of something the less value it has"
When you bring in millions of slave labor employees... the value/wages of American workers goes down as they are replaced with illegal labor... for any job not requiring a University degree or Trade license.
The entire interview is good, it explains why the 'race' card is becoming a futile political tool... and why the class lines are being redrawn along the lines of sex (over 60% of college graduates are women... over 70% when you factor out non-American students).
So... in 20 years you will have an American population where roughly 70% of higher education will be female. And we will literally have a population of men that have been groomed to be useless idiots that have no concept of what role a man is supposed to fill... as they also become the minority of the workforce in the future.
You reap what you sow... I hope that time comes when my time on earth is over... but at the rate things are going, I doubt it.
Or we will have a population where men are absolutely necessary for everyday life. The mechanic, the plumber, the mechanic, even the gardner and lawn mower will be 90% men; women will have no knowledge or skill whatsoever outside of their specific training. Every facet of our lives, from daycare to swimming lessons to driver training to all of the trades will be exclusively male.
An ugly picture, but I do not believe it will come to that. So much of the college curriculum today is garbage; majors without real possibility of earning a living from it, classes that have nothing to do with real life. I suspect men will still be found in the STEM area, in the legal field, in the sciences, etc.
The Plumber and Gardner are fields where they can replace the majority of workers with "illegal migrants" AKA slave labor.
This has been in evidence for decades... meat production to construction these fields used to be good paying jobs for American citizens that came with benefits.
Go to a construction development today where a new neighborhood is being built... good luck finding someone who speaks english.
America lost its focus on creating engineers and scientists... it glamorizes being Trans and being in touch with your 'inner self' these days.
Its a sad society we are creating... one built by a generation fixated on TikTok videos and how to express oneself in increasingly detached from reality ways... with a population that is nearing 50% of children born being diagnosed as being on the Autistic Spectrum or having some other serious mental or physical handicap... all while we protect the corporations from being held accountable for the vaccines they give us and the poisons they put in our foods.
The Plumber and Gardner are fields where they can replace the majority of workers with "illegal migrants" AKA slave labor.
And yet when a giant tech corporation can layoff Americans as it brings in as many programmers or coders (low level skilled tech jobs) on visas as they can and it isn't viewed as slave labor?
Lol, the corporate oligarchs can sit on high, many of foreign birth and call Americans stupid? And expect the masses to believe it? Just because they need a cheaper more submissive workhorse? Nope. The backlash will be severe.
I understand your concerns, and I agree that uncontrolled borders or poorly managed immigration policies can have significant impacts on working-class and poor Americans. However, there’s an important distinction between open borders and programs like the H-1B1 visa, which target highly skilled workers for specific roles that many Americans are not currently trained to fill.
We also have a broader issue that needs to be addressed: how to fill high-skilled jobs or risk continuing to lag behind other nations in critical high-tech fields. We can’t afford to sit on our hands due to a "hire Americans only" policy, nor should we simply accept the mindset of, “Oh well, we just can’t supply enough Americans for these roles.” What we need are real solutions to encourage and promote more Americans to enter these fields, through better education, training, and support. At the same time, carefully managed skilled immigration can be part of a balanced approach to keeping our industries competitive. I'd be interested in hearing Batya Ungar-Sargon’s specific points and how they might align with finding these solutions.
I'll take a guess. Maybe they think "government efficiency" is more than just budgeted dollars. Makes sense to me. *shrug*
GA
Go figure ha-ha *shrug*
Like I shared to Sharlee I am just going to kick back and watch chaos theory unfold while entropy seeks to predict the future.
Just kidding about . . .
Edit: You probably missed the OP I posted on a game - Democracy 4. You can play it and run your own country. Pretty sophisticated. Should prove to be a step above Zelda.
Tired of how your country is run? Be the leader, a DIY Project.
https://hubpages.com/games-hobbies/foru … iy-project
What do you think?
I'm not much of a gamer, but I'll take a look.
GA
"How can the U.S. education system be reformed to better prepare students for careers in high-demand fields like technology and engineering?"
A few things that would make a good start, IMO:
1. Stop discriminating against our best students at the university level (already in progress, if by lip service if not action).
2. Stop pretending that all people are the same. They are not, and some will make better engineers than others will. Encourage that difference, don't prohibit it.
3. Stop the CRT garbage, telling some of our best people they are to blame for what they did not do.
4. Stop the systemic discrimination coming into being today (see #3).
5. Give control back to teachers and parents rather than a government that places far more value on testing than on learning.
6. Rather than put all our efforts into trying to get minorities and females into STEM fields, put effort into ALL kids, including boys and Caucasians, and do it at the same level of effort. Recognize and accept that not everyone can excel at STEM (regardless of their sex or race) and that not everyone wants it anyway.
Finally, turn our colleges and universities back into institutions of learning rather than political action forums and entertainment.
That there (above) is a white man speaking in his racist mantra...
Listen... we need ALL the immigrants we can get in this country...
This clip goes into detail of just how much good can come from an open border policy akin to what Biden allowed the past 4 years:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVO8RgQ9iSg
Those would be more than a good start, they would be almost all that is needed. Almost.
GA
"Those would be more than a good start, they would be almost all that is needed. Almost."
Maybe if they had any basis in reality...
I suspect more media influence with a little projection tossed in. Maybe?
Everything you wanted to know about . . .
College Graduation Statistics by Education Data Initiative (Updated Mar 15, 2024)
https://educationdata.org/number-of-college-graduates
The report offers national demographics followed by each state. A lengthy presentation, however interesting.
For starters to dispel myths
One must consider more than likely degrees acquired would parallel job/career opportunities. High school students, today, are given an aim in that perspective. However, at the community college level there are good to excellent trade school opportunities, at least here in California. There are Associate of Arts degrees as well as certificate programs for nursing, auto mechanics, diesel mechanics, building trades, and more.
What about with a world perspective?
2024-2025 Best Global Universities Rankings by US News
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-g … s/rankings
It ranks 2,459 schools. The top three are . . .
Harvard
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)
Stanford
The world's top 100 universities by QS Top Universities (Updated Aug 23, 2024)
https://www.topuniversities.com/student … iversities
In this report there are three American universities in the top ten. They are
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) - #1
Harvard University - #4
California Institute of Technology (Caltech) - #10
(For interest, the character Sheldon in The Big Bang Theory and Young Sheldon attended Caltech)
And, a world view we have . . .
Most Educated Countries 2024 by World Population Review
https://worldpopulationreview.com/count … -countries
The US comes in at #9
(Sources provided at article/study end)
Great site with a wealth of information! The chart clearly illustrates the increase in college degrees overall and which fields are more prevalent. I was hoping my original post would specifically shed light on why Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy believe it’s necessary to continue relying, at least partially, on H-1B visas to fill STEM jobs. Your chart does provide a striking perspective on how few degrees are actually in STEM fields.
Great site with a wealth of information ! I was hoping my original post would specifically highlight why Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy believe we need to continue relying, at least partially, on H-1B visas to fill STEM jobs. Your chart does provide a clear perspective on just how few degrees are actually in STEM fields.
The U.S. faces a complex situation when it comes to filling STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics) jobs with American workers. While the number of college graduates with STEM degrees has been steadily increasing, there is still a significant gap between the supply of qualified workers and the demand for talent in many STEM fields. Factors like rapid technological advancements, an aging workforce, and the growth of industries such as artificial intelligence, biotechnology, and renewable energy have outpaced the available pool of domestic talent.
Additionally, some STEM roles, particularly in fields like computer science and engineering, experience acute shortages despite a growing interest in these areas among students. On the other hand, challenges persist, such as ensuring that graduates possess the specific skills and experience employers require. Programs that emphasize practical training, internships, and collaboration between academia and industry can help bridge this gap, but it remains an ongoing challenge.
In response, many employers rely on international talent through programs like the H-1B visa to fill critical positions, which has sparked debates about whether the U.S. education system is adequately preparing American students for these roles and how to better support the domestic workforce in STEM fields.
I think they are all realistic. Which ones do you feel are not?
GA
I think in general that is the problem... educational focus.
When you are focused on CRT and Social Justice...
Then you are not focused on Engineering and Science.
The focus in our media and in our Universities wastes a majority of its time these days on topics that do not build a strong society... in fact many of them do the opposite, they give you the tools and the teachings to tear one's society down.
In the 1960s things like LGBTQ+ studies, Sexuality studies, Social Justice did not exist... we are reaping the benefits of those things becoming not just mainstreamed but focus for Degrees.
If you make scientists and engineers the focus of education programs and ensure they have good wages (rewarding these fields significantly better than others), and you give those fields top billing in media efforts, then we will have the best Scientists and Engineers in the world... like we once did, when we prioritized those things.
Today we give plenty of attention to Transgenders and Furries and Social Justice and Race Theory... so that is what we are getting a lot of today.
Yep, misguided focus does describe it well.
It reminds me of the 80s when MBA degrees were the focus. We ended up with a glut of MBA folks. I remember the quips about 'burger flippers' with MBAs.
GA
The shift today is much more destructive...
The shift to making women the focus... lots of studies on this, they are much more manipulatable (coerced) into believing things or going with the 'herd' mentality.... they are less frugal, less focused on fixing and building things, etc.
We see this in our educational shift... with 70% of the higher education American graduates being women, the shift into 'touchy feely' topics and degrees will remain the norm.
[edit] I made an edit to an earlier post that got 'lost' when I hit 'save'.
Don't recall much other than the jist... which matches what we are discussing... it regards the difference in military ADs... the difference in messaging and it also is a statement as to how differently we view our military and society:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnpD1tCjTcQ
Women are easy to manipulate? lol . Wow. Nope.
According to recent studies, the number of women entering STEM careers has been increasing at a faster rate than men, with data showing a significant rise in female representation within the STEM workforce between 2011 and 2021...
Between 2011 and 2021, the number of women in the STEM workforce increased 31%, from 9.4 million to 12.3 million.
https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsf23315/rep … 20million.
Some interesting reading to consider:
Feminism’s collateral damage is the breakdown of society
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin … f-society/
Feminism: Destruction and Brainwashing of the Younger Generation
https://letters2president.org/letters/7399
Feminism: Castrating America
https://www.creationliberty.com/articles/feminism.php
Interesting site... someone who really does not like the changes in society.
Second-Wave Feminists Pushed the Sexual Revolution to End America, and It’s Working
https://eppc.org/publication/second-wav … s-working/
This one was an interesting take.
But this isn't about feminism. This is about Elon Musk and other tech billionaires wanting a cheap, compliant, captive labor force. These have to do with lower level jobs that certainly do not take any level of genius... We are talking about repetitive jobs that require very little thinking. Coding and programming come to mind... There's a little software program for older children called code monkey... Yeah they learn it pretty quick. Not hard. We don't need to bring in people from other countries.
Is it fair to use Elon Musk or any company head as an example? Do you have information on the specific needs of his many companies, the expertise he seeks when hiring, and details about the compensation he offers? Additionally, do you know if he discriminates based on race, gender, or nationality in his hiring practices? Are you aware of any concrete data or sources that provide evidence on these matters, rather than relying on opinion pieces that could be biased or speculative? I'm looking for factual information, not just opinions. Your view, in my opinion, appears biased, and unfounded. It is so easy to just assume, but is it accurate, or fair?
Tesla, headed by Elon Musk, was among the leading employers of new foreign-born scientists and engineers in FY 2024, according to H-1B visa data...
He stated on X that he would go to war on the issue and expanding the visas. Tech oligarchs seem to be looking to enrich themselves under a trump administration. Trump has completely flip flopped on his view of the Visas from his first term and his new alliance with Musk. But ultimately, why are they meddling in these visas anyway? Has nothing to do with "government efficiency" America first but let us bring in cheaper captive workers from India? I can see why maga is fuming.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartande … a-holders/
Just my view, your comment misses several important points about the H-1B visa issue. I feel your view is a much-repeated media blitz, which lacks the nuance of the full issues that surround the subject.
The H-1B program is designed to fill skill gaps in the U.S. labor market, particularly in fields like tech and healthcare, where there’s a shortage of domestic talent. To call it a way for companies to hire "cheaper captive workers" doesn’t really capture the full picture. These workers are filling critical roles that are essential to industries driving the U.S. economy. As for Elon Musk, I see his push to reform the H-1B process as an attempt to streamline it and make it more merit-based, not just a self-serving move. Tesla and other companies are making significant contributions to innovation, and Musk’s stance on visas reflects a desire to bring in top talent that benefits everyone, not just his own interests.
When it comes to Trump, I think it’s too simplistic to label his evolving views on immigration as a "flip-flop." His position has changed because the needs of the country have changed, and I don’t see that as inconsistent, but rather as adapting to new economic realities. The criticism of Musk and other tech leaders for using the H-1B program seems unfair to me. These leaders are helping create jobs and contribute to the economy, both in the U.S. and globally. While I understand the frustration some MAGA supporters feel about the focus on foreign workers, I believe the conversation should be about balancing the need for skilled talent with the need to invest in the U.S. workforce. It’s not about picking sides; it’s about finding a fair solution that benefits everyone. The issue of H-1B visas deserves a more nuanced and balanced discussion, not one driven by assumptions or biases.
Could you consider a What if?
What if: Considering the level and type of technological achievements Musk's companies have made, it seems a very high level of engineering and technical expertise was needed. From the technical innovations and successes of Starlink and Space X to the medical innovations of Neurolink to the success of Tesla, these don't seem the accomplishments of C-grade engineers.
So what if Musk is being truthful when he talks about H1b candidates being (or should be) in the top .1% of talent? What if a deep dive found that the H1bs of Musk's sphere really were all top-grade engineers (generic for coders and medicals and scientists too) and not the H1bs of Trump's claims?
It also seems fair to say his use of H1bs isn't to replace expensive workers with cheaper ones—he's not a Disney-type example.
I think that is a probably-most-true 'what if'. If so, slanders of just wanting to enrich himself sound desperate. Is there more evidence against him than simply being the richest man in the world or you disagreeing with his politics?
GA
...the success of Tesla, these don't seem the accomplishments of C-grade engineers.
Agreed, but am I to automatically believe that those accomplishments were primarily due to A+ engineers of Indian origin rather than Americans?
It is also unclear where the bulk of these visas are used. A little bit of research gives the impression that many are used to bring in mid level folks doing hamster wheel tasks rather than a handful mad scientists. Not all of tech is "highly skilled"
The case has not been made sufficiently to believe that the Indian worker is more or uniquely qualified for mid level positions. Lastly, we do have examples of several companies whose actions have been exposed.
The visas should be used for extraordinary talent. The majority of tech jobs do not require genius level talent.
Most simply require training and experience It does not take such talent to code, to program to analyze data and so on. The exception is with high level R&D. Yes, for those jobs, we need exceptional talent in order to innovate, but tech R&D jobs are few.
The "Indian" component isn't a detail I was addressing. I don't know where the H1bs came from. Does it matter?
You say where the H1bs were used is unclear but a little bit of research shows they weren't top-grade responsibilities. What research? I didn't find any sources that spoke to the specifics of the jobs filled. What did you find?
GA
"As Mark Krikorian of the Center for Immigration Studies notes, the natural move would be for the incoming Trump administration to try to select H-1B visa recipients by highest salary offers rather than by lottery (the first Trump administration attempted this but got blocked in the courts). The logic is that if we are truly recruiting the most valuable talent, companies will demonstrate it with a willingness to pay up. As it is, the H-1B program is benefiting many mid-level employees who are hardly irreplaceable. According to the New York Times, a couple of years ago the company that runs Truth Social sought a H-1B visa for a “product data analyst” who would make $65,000. Are we really supposed to believe that there was no one in the United States who could do that job"
https://www.nationalreview.com/2024/12/ … of-reform/
Computer-related jobs are the most common occupation for H-1B visas, accounting for 66% of all approvals in 2022. Within that field, jobs in systems analysis and programming make up nearly 55% of those approvals.
Some of the most common job titles for H-1B visas include:
Software engineer
Senior software engineer
Assistant professor
Senior consultant
Staff software engineer
Research scientist
Technical lead
Research associate.
Not exactly high level, genius type r&d stuff.
https://www.myvisajobs.com/reports/h1b/job-title/
Why a lottery system?
You can only apply for an H1B visa if you have a qualifying job offer in the US from an eligible US employer. If you meet this requirement, you will need to follow the H1B application process
The H1B application process is made up of three key stages: the initial electronic registration, the H1B lottery selection, followed by the full H1B petition stage. So it's random luck and not merit?
https://day1cptuniversities.com/blog/fy … ry-changes
Just tossing some stuff in . . . there were a total of 781K H-1B registrations for 2024. As stated about 66% of those are tech related. The tech industry for 2024 had 5.6 million workers.
Note, once a H-1B registrant accepts employment s/he is bound to that place of employment. If they decided they want to leave for different employment they must go through the process again beginning with finding an employer to sponsor them.
"If they decided they want to leave for different employment they must go through the process again beginning with finding an employer to sponsor them."
Makes for a more "captive" employee? The American employee may pick up and leave when paid or being treated poorly.
It looks like we're talking about different things. I entered talking about Musk's position that the H1bs should be for those at the top of their 'fields', and your slander of his motive being the greed to enrich himself. Your replies seem to be about Trump and a common(?) misuse of the H1b program.
Criticisms about whether the applicants are in the top 10% or top .1% seem to be nitpicking. A more real-world judgment—for the critiques you offer—would be between those at the top of their class and others that are 'just office-manager good' at what they do.
GA
Agreed, but am I to automatically believe that those accomplishments were primarily due to A+ engineers of Indian origin rather than Americans? "Willow
Are you assuming they were not? It seems to me that you assume too much at times, accusing without fully knowing the facts. Did you take the time to read the H-1B laws I posted? Also, does this man not have the right to hold a different view? And isn't he in a better position, given that he has large companies that rely on H-1B workers?
From Willow's post: "The case has not been made sufficiently to believe that the Indian worker is more or uniquely qualified for mid level positions. "
As I understand it, the company is not required to make the case, sufficient to Willow's mind or anyone else's, that the Indian worker is more qualified. They just have to say so; it is up to Willow (or whoever is naysaying the action) to prove otherwise.
Am I wrong? Does the company have to provide full documentation as to the qualifications of the H-1B holder, with work studies, education, experience, etc. before the visa is issued? Or do they simply find a candidate acceptable to them for employment and it's pretty much a done deal?
The company should have to prove that their visa applicant is more qualified/experienced than an American counterpart or that an American counterpart is not available.
And the Visas are given by lottery system.. so much for merit
You are correct in assuming that the employer must provide documentation of the qualifications of the H-1B candidate before the visa is issued, but it’s a bit more involved than simply finding a candidate they deem acceptable. The employer must submit an H-1B petition to the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS), and this petition includes several requirements to demonstrate the applicant's qualifications. The employer must show that the candidate meets the educational and experience requirements for the specialized job being offered. This involves providing evidence of the applicant's academic credentials, such as degrees, transcripts, and sometimes work experience that is equivalent to the required degree (if the degree is not directly relevant to the job). The employer also needs to establish that the job indeed requires a specialized skill set that justifies the H-1B visa, and they must ensure the position aligns with the H-1B criteria, which typically means requiring a bachelor’s degree or higher.
In addition to proving the qualifications of the candidate, the employer must file a Labor Condition Application (LCA) with the Department of Labor. This LCA ensures that the employer will pay the prevailing wage and that hiring the H-1B worker will not adversely affect the working conditions of U.S. workers. This is an important step and part of the documentation the employer must present before the visa is approved. It’s not simply about finding a candidate acceptable to the company; the employer must provide proof and documentation at multiple levels to ensure they meet all requirements of the H-1B visa process. Therefore, the process is not a “done deal” simply based on the company’s preference. It involves meeting specific qualifications and compliance with U.S. immigration laws.
Ultimately it is up to the employer to follow a long list of laws (too many to post) some offer protection for American workers. It is not required for the employer to explain their needs. Only the visa worker completely suits the needs of the job and the education and experience to do a given job.
I think one of my previous comments covers my view on why I feel H-1B workers are necessary at this time in the growth of our nation. To sum it up, we just do not have enough at this point to fill many STEM jobs. I would love to say we did, and that we did not need foreign workers. But, it is just not feasible, and me saying it is and complaining about the issue would be somewhat intelligent. I think Tim's post simply answers why we need these foreign workers. https://hubpages.com/politics/forum/362 … ost4352985
Or just the analogy our glass is only half filled, and we are lagging in putting out STEM workers.
So I was half right. The employer must submit facts about the prospective employee, but facts any employer actually trying to hire a qualified candidate already has in hand.
And then lots more paperwork, which I was aware of in gross if not fine detail.
All of which makes the statement that Will doesn't know if they are qualified rather silly; it is not his job. It is the job of the employer first, and govt second (and to a lesser degree). In theory all these visas have passed scrutiny of the govt so the complaint they may not be qualified is without merit.
Yes, that’s about it. The bottom line is that we need these workers, just as we need many low-skilled workers to fill jobs that some Americans are unwilling to take. The H-1B visa is not about filling jobs that Americans won’t do; it’s about the fact that we simply don’t have enough people to fill STEM jobs. If one takes the time to read our laws, it’s clear that these workers are not paid less and receive the same benefits as American workers—by law. The laws are straightforward. Is it possible some employers do not follow these laws? Yes, that could be the case, but if they don’t, they can face serious consequences.
I find it odd that some people are perfectly fine with low-skilled migrants taking jobs, yet are disturbed by highly skilled migrants who follow the law and are accused of taking American jobs. It’s frustrating that more people don’t take the time to understand the laws before assuming that Americans are being turned away and that migrants are being paid less.
Honestly, if the government starts adding amendments to the visa laws and demands that businesses seek only American STEM workers, I can only imagine the consequences that would follow. If we need to fill high-skilled jobs---and can't fill them with Americans, I am all for hiring people to keep our economy going strong and attempting to catch up with technology.
If it becomes impossible or illegal to fill high skilled STEM jobs...companies will move operations to where they can get help. And our high tech secrets (if China has left us any!) will be an open book. It might make liberals happy as our hard won knowledge is given to every nation on earth, but not me.
No, if companies cannot continue to import foreign workers at an even higher rate, they will simply resort to offshoring. You do understand that American tech workers have been laid off in pretty large numbers for the last few years? Funny that only the most extreme part of maga actually understands what's going on here.
Perhaps you missed the memo—slander has become a new social norm, and it’s being used quite effectively. Takes so little thought to slander, and seems to make one feel --- something.
Slander has always been our social norm. And the liberals don't have a monopoly on it. ;-)
GA
I certainly didn't use any labels. Was I referring to Willow? Yes, but I have no idea if she considers herself a liberal. I feel that throughout this thread, she has used slander as a tool, as I’m sure I’ve been guilty of as well. My point is that, as I mentioned in my comment, slander has become a new social norm and is being used quite effectively. I disagree with the statement that "slander has always been our social norm." While it has always existed, in my view, it has never been as prevalent as it is today. I think we can agree to disagree on this one. We all have a right to different views.
My remark was to the generics of liberal versus conservative (or D & R) political arguments on this forum. That does include you (and me) but was not specific to you.
I thought you might take it personally, so I added the smiley to mitigate the charge. ;-)
As for disagreeing with the thought of it being a new norm; agreeing to disagree isn't going to cut it. I think I can illustrate that you are wrong. Just as wrong as the folks that claim America is the most divided that it has ever been.
I had 'deep-dive' days once—for a lot of years, until I had an epiphany. Many of those 'dives' included looking into our past politics. Simply pick a political topic (scandal, crisis, or achievement) of today and you will find it has been a political topic in the past. Someone else has said this before, and I have found it to be true: 'The names change, but the game stays the same.'
My deep-dive days are past, but here's a search link that offers a choice of examples of my point. The History.com link is the easiest to digest.: personal slander in 19th century U.S. politics
The same search for the 20th century shows even more examples of 'deja vu' in the politics of slander and personal attacks arena, but the 19th-century link shows that it started as long ago as our second election. Another link from History.com: 5. Adams participated in what may have been the nastiest presidential campaign in American history.
Things only seem different because now they come from the megaphones of the internet.
GA
touché---I truly appreciate that you gave me more than just two sentences. You really made your point, and I stand corrected. I've been schooled by your efforts, and I can honestly say that you proved your thoughts beyond a doubt.
P.S. I don't take it personally; I just try to expand the conversation. Yes, I realize I can be a bit edgy. Maybe I should make a New Year's resolution to let go of that edge. Happy New Year!
Well, considering the thanks for more than two sentences, maybe another touche' is in order; one from me.
I am aware of the apparent implications of my less-than-detailed responses in recent times. The assumption of negative inferences is wrong. I just don't have that much to say—that hasn't already been said by others—on most topics.
Happy New Year to you too.
Ga
I want to clarify that I wasn’t trying to imply anything about how you communicate. Most of the time, I find your brief responses both relevant and thought-provoking. In fact, as a rule, I don’t usually feel the need to debate your thoughts. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? LOL
I think or wires are crossed.
Yes, to both insights... points you made.
I had a conversation today.... someone was upset with the accusations being made against them online...
First point I tried to make was that you never know who you are really dealing with online, on discord, or any social media platform.
It could be a man pretending to be a woman, or kid, or whatever... or a kid pretending to be an adult, etc.
The question posed to me was how did I deal with it when I was a kid...
I didn't have to... there was no internet...
The people you dealt with you could see, or hear on the phone, and in general you were almost always certain of who you were dealing with.
You didn't interact with kids as an adult, unless you had a job that required it (IE teacher)... an adult that did so who was not required to be in regular proximity to kids was usually identified as a pervert or worse.
Its not just the internet washing away the concrete foundations of norms and society... its the ease with which millions of people are moving... being displaced... migrating... most Western nations are in the midst of being replaced... overrun... overwhelmed... washed away.
When a town of 25,000 Americans... takes in 20,000 Haitians... your norms, your social cohesion, is going to be washed away... something new will arise... cultures may blend, or be overrun, change will be substantial either way.
Just throwing that out there as an example.
I can't resist open doors. You were preaching to the choir right up to the immigrants part.
You tagged onto a reply about the game staying the same. So my mind was on that track.
As soon as I read that the devil on my shoulder shouted, "Yeah, just like the Wops, Paddies, and Pollocks did."*
*Any who don't get the thought behind the use of those slurs are free to ask for clarification.
I tried to stop him Ken, but since it illustrated the proof of my original point, I let him win.
GA
Well done... ;-)
and I bet you believe that...
As to a reply I just made on another thread... "what are your expectations for the new year?" ... something akin to that.
History repeats...
When you have a migration coming in... in numbers that can be accompanied with integration or assimilation... that is good...
OR... if you can push them through, to another destination... as America did as it was expanding West... so many migrants were sent to colonize the frontier.
But when you can't do that... you are washed away by them... like the Roman Empire was by the Germanic tribes...
The ability to make concrete that could set in the sea... lost...
The ability to tunnel through mountains and run aqueducts that with the most imperceptible pitch allowed water to flow miles down to the city... lost
Or how the 'Native Americans' were washed away by the migrating Europeans...
The Rise and Fall of Civilizations.
Or maybe its just old age... and not being in tune with the new one.
And don't forget the Bronz computer.
You're right, it is just our old age. On the one hand, we're seeing the science fiction of our youth turn into reality and on the other, the lessons of history being repeated.
GA
Nothing to add... that paragraph sums it up as well any paragraph could.
Technology is pushing humanity to extremes and heights only the wildest science fiction had predicted in our youth...
While at the same time the rise and fall of civilizations continues...
And as it happens... we are at a point where our economy's downward spiral is due... as are many other nations, like Japan, France, Germany.
Complex times ahead for sure.
Elon Musk is a U.S. citizen, having followed our immigration laws to gain that status, and as such, he has every right to enjoy the same rights as any other American citizen. Not sure I would call his input medalling ---He has a right to his views.
Over the years, he has shared his views on visa workers, as is his right, and I respect that. I can’t comment on how closely he has adhered to the laws surrounding the hiring of visa workers, but I can only hope that he has followed the rules. Therefore, I don’t feel the need to condemn him for employing foreign workers within the framework of our laws. As of now, I have not heard anything from Trump about changing the current laws on visa workers, and I don’t buy into speculative “what if” scenarios.
Trump himself has recently stated that he also uses H-1B workers at his properties, a practice that’s common for many businesses, especially since NAFTA. This has been a reality for industries across the country, and statistics show that the use of H-1B workers has increased significantly since the agreement's implementation.
The increase in H-1B visa usage began in the early 2000s, particularly around the time of the dot-com boom. The demand for skilled tech workers surged during this period, leading to a significant rise in the number of H-1B visa petitions. By 2001, the number of H-1B visas issued had increased dramatically, reflecting the growing demand for technology and engineering professionals.
The cap was increased ---- 1998 – American Competitiveness and Workforce Improvement Act (ACWIA): The increase in the H-1B cap to 115,000, from 65,000--- was signed by President Bill Clinton.
You seem you tend not to cover issues by considering variables.
Several reports and statistics highlight the shortage of high-skilled workers in the U.S. The shortage is particularly noticeable in fields like technology, healthcare, engineering, and skilled trades. Here are some key points:
Tech Industry Shortage: According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), the demand for software developers, data scientists, and other tech-related roles is expected to grow rapidly. For example, employment of software developers is projected to grow 22% from 2020 to 2030, much faster than the average for all occupations. Despite this growth, many tech companies report difficulty in filling these roles due to a shortage of qualified candidates.
Skilled Worker Gap: A report from the National Skills Coalition estimates that by 2027, nearly 70 million jobs in the U.S. will require high-level skills in technical fields, but the country is not producing enough workers to meet this demand. This shortage is not limited to tech but extends across various industries.
H-1B Visa Demand: The high demand for skilled workers has also led to an increased reliance on the H-1B visa program, which brings foreign talent to the U.S. to fill roles in tech and other specialized fields. Despite some criticism of the program, it underscores the need for skilled workers to keep up with the demands of the economy. In recent years, companies have submitted tens of thousands of H-1B applications annually, many for positions in fields like computer science, engineering, and finance.
STEM Education Gap: According to the STEM Education Coalition, there is a growing gap between the number of students graduating with degrees in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) fields and the number of jobs available in these sectors. In 2021, it was estimated that there were over 2.4 million job openings in STEM-related fields, with a particular shortage in computer and mathematical occupations.
Labor Force Participation: The 2023 U.S. Labor Market Report indicated that the demand for skilled labor is increasing, but the overall labor force participation rate, especially for young people, has been declining. This trend is contributing to the difficulty in filling these high-skilled roles.
So straight up---- do you think this presents a problem now and in the future? In my view, race DEI has little to do with filling these jobs. The lack of qualified people is the issue.
Trump has offered a quick response to the issue Elon and Vivik now find themselves in. He appears to approve of the H1B1 visa due to they come in legally, and due to need.
It feels inconsistent to restrict highly educated migrants coming in on H-1B visas while being more permissive about large numbers of lower-skilled migrants entering without proper documentation. The H-1B program is designed to fill gaps in the workforce for highly skilled jobs, often in fields like technology, engineering, and medicine. Many argue that these migrants contribute significantly to innovation and economic growth, filling roles where there’s a shortage of U.S. workers.
On the other hand, the influx of undocumented migrants can create challenges. While some may take jobs in industries like agriculture, construction, and service work, their presence without legal documentation can strain resources like healthcare, education, and housing. Additionally, the lack of legal status complicates tax contributions and workplace protections.
The tension seems to come from differing priorities: one group emphasizes humanitarian needs and the potential benefits of having a workforce for low-wage jobs, while the other highlights the importance of a controlled and merit-based immigration system to ensure both economic benefits and national security.
A balanced approach might involve reforming the immigration system to make it easier for both highly educated and lower-skilled workers to come legally while enforcing laws to ensure that undocumented immigration is addressed in a fair and practical manner.
Back to my main subject—the focus was meant to be on Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy's comments on the H-1B visa issue, which has become a hot topic in the media lately.
I feel that people like Vivek Ramaswamy and Elon Musk, who demonstrate diverse intelligence and share perspectives on various issues and subjects, represent a unique breed of thought leaders in today’s society. Their broad expertise and willingness to engage with complex, multifaceted challenges make them influential voices across industries and political spheres. These individuals often transcend traditional boundaries, bringing fresh, sometimes provocative ideas to the forefront of public discourse. By synthesizing knowledge from diverse fields, they challenge conventional thinking and encourage innovation in areas ranging from technology to governance. While their approaches may not always resonate universally, their intellectual versatility and boldness inspire both admiration and critical dialogue, highlighting their significant impact on shaping modern thought.
I believe both have the ability to multitask effectively and possess innate common sense. They are likely to be thorns in many sides as they offer straightforward opinions on issues, identifying what they see as the root causes while also suggesting temporary solutions to address the problems until deeper repairs can be made.
A bit more on all the whys of it...
This issue is complicated because, on one hand, we see tech companies laying off workers due to economic pressures, cost-cutting measures, and shifts in strategic focus. It's not uncommon for companies to downsize in certain areas or departments, particularly when the focus shifts toward automation, artificial intelligence, or other emerging technologies. However, despite these layoffs, these same companies still hire H-1B visa workers for roles that require highly specialized skills. The reality is that even during layoffs, there's still a significant demand for workers with expertise in fields like software engineering, data science, and cybersecurity. The H-1B visa program allows tech companies to tap into a global talent pool, especially when they can't find enough qualified U.S. workers with the right skill sets. It's not just about filling general job positions, but rather ensuring the company can stay competitive and innovative.
Some companies may opt for foreign workers on H-1B visas because of salary disparities, even though it can be controversial. So, while layoffs are happening, these companies still need top-tier talent to stay at the cutting edge of their industries. It's a delicate balancing act—reducing costs and streamlining operations, yet ensuring that critical skills are in place for long-term growth.
It seems to be an issue that needs to be delved into.
Here are the updated sources with working links that provide relevant information on the shortage of STEM workers:
U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS):
The BLS projects a 10.4% growth in STEM occupations from 2023 to 2033, with STEM jobs expected to grow faster than the average for all occupations. This reflects the increased demand for skilled workers in fields like technology, healthcare, and engineering.
Source: BLS STEM Occupations
National Science Foundation (NSF):
The NSF reports that STEM jobs are growing faster than other sectors. Despite this, there is a shortage of qualified workers to fill these roles, especially in specialized fields like engineering and computer science.
Source: NSF Science and Engineering Indicators
U.S. News & World Report:
U.S. News highlights how industries like technology and engineering continue to struggle with filling STEM positions. The shortage of skilled labor remains a challenge despite the growing demand for workers in these sectors.
Source: U.S. News STEM Job Shortages
TechCrunch:
According to CompTIA, the tech industry faces a significant skills gap, with a shortage of qualified IT professionals, particularly in cybersecurity and other specialized fields. The demand for skilled workers continues to grow as the industry evolves.
Source: CompTIA Cybersecurity Labor Shortage
The Brookings Institution:
Brookings research highlights the persistent shortage of STEM workers, particularly in engineering, technology, and healthcare. Despite investment in STEM education, many sectors continue to struggle to meet the demand for skilled workers.
Source: Brookings STEM Skills Gap
There is not a basis in fact in your argument. Over 70% come from India, a country that lags in education compared to America . No evidence that points to Americans being unable to do the jobs filled by these visa lotteries
It seems you may have missed part of the point I was trying to make in my original post. I emphasized that STEM employers are struggling to fill high-skilled positions, and I supported this with several quotes from Elon Musk and Vivek, as well as information from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and other sources that shaped my perspective. The conversation has since veered into other issues, which is natural in a debate. I’ve shared my thoughts, as you’ve shared yours. However, it seems the focus has shifted to the idea that people from India may not be as educated as Americans and that Americans should fill these STEM jobs but might be overlooked.
My premise is that we simply don’t have enough Americans applying for STEM positions, and business owners may need to hire from other countries out of necessity. My sources, along with input from figures like Elon Musk, Vivek, Tim Cook, Mark Zuckerberg, and others, have led me to this conclusion. I can’t speculate on their motives, but the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics confirms there’s a real issue in filling these roles. I don’t believe it’s fair or accurate to assume Indian applicants are poorly educated. In my view, it should be up to employers to assess an applicant’s education and abilities.
I also think it’s unwise to be so rigid on an issue as complex as this, where many variables need to be considered before forming a definitive stance. I value the expertise of those who are well-informed on such matters and respect their views more than those who lack relevant knowledge.
It seems you may have missed part of the point I was trying to make in my original post. I emphasized that STEM employers are struggling to fill high-skilled positions, and I supported this with several quotes from Elon Musk and Vivek, as well as information from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and other sources that shaped my perspective. The conversation has since veered into other issues, which is natural in a debate. I’ve shared my thoughts, as you’ve shared yours. However, it seems the focus has shifted to the idea that people from India may not be as educated as Americans, and that Americans should fill these STEM jobs but might be overlooked.
My premise is that we simply don’t have enough Americans applying for STEM positions, and business owners may need to hire from other countries out of necessity. My sources, along with input from figures like Elon Musk, Vivek, Tim Cook, Mark Zuckerberg, and others, have led me to this conclusion. I can’t speculate on their motives, but the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics confirms there’s a real issue in filling these roles. I don’t believe it’s fair or accurate to assume Indian applicants are poorly educated. In my view, it should be up to employers to assess an applicant’s education and abilities.
I also think it’s unwise to be so rigid on an issue as complex as this, where many variables need to be considered before forming a definitive stance. I value the expertise of those who are well-informed on such matters and respect their views more than those who lack relevant knowledge.
I also feel Tim's information and the very chart he offers to highlight that part of the problem lies in not enough people going into STEM fields. That pie chart is somewhat shocking.
There is absolutely no evidence that tech employers are struggling to fill jobs. They are laying off American workers and bringing in workers on visas from countries who actually have lower educational attainment.
The Most Educated Countries
Canada 63%
Japan 56%
Ireland 54%
South Korea 53%
United Kingdom 51%
Australia 51%
Israel 51%
Luxembourg 51%
United States 50%
Sweden 49%
Is it so hard to believe as a nation we can't fill high-skill Jobs?
See Tim's comment for the source.
Educated in what... that is the real issue.
And where is China on that list?
In another decade I believe China will become the central focus for higher education the way America has been for the last 100 years.
Because... when it comes down to it... no foreign nation is interested in sending its brightest minds to learn about Equity and Race Theory... they want Scientists, Engineers... Microbiologists and Nuclear Physicists... not graduates with our navel gazing degrees of today.
This is the link where I took the info from. https://worldpopulationreview.com/count … -countries
I guess my point is that before we can fill STEM jobs without relying on H-1B visas, we need to address the fact that our education system is lagging behind, especially in STEM fields. This is, in my view, the root of why we struggle to fill these positions, forcing companies to look elsewhere. We can’t afford to cut off our noses to spite our faces. Many are now jumping on the bandwagon to cut the H-1B visa cap without considering the broader impact—not only on the economy but also on how it will put us even further behind in technology. I’d certainly like to see Americans put at the head of the line, but the line is long, and it seems we just can’t fill many high-skilled jobs without bringing in visa workers. This kind of mentality escapes me. I know it shouldn't, but it does.
Some of the biggest companies in tech including Google, Meta, Amazon, Microsoft, and Salesforce have hired foreign workers just weeks after reducing headcount by thousands of employees, according to a report.
Google, which laid off some 12,000 employees earlier this year, filed applications for low-paid foreign workers to come to the United States and assume highly specialized tech roles within the company, according to investigative journalist Lee Fang.
https://nypost.com/2023/05/16/google-me … fs-report/
Tech and outsourcing companies continue to exploit the H-1B visa program at a time of mass layoffs
The top 30 H-1B employers hired 34,000 new H-1B workers in 2022 and laid off at least 85,000 workers in 2022 and early 2023...
Sorry this needs to stop.
https://www.epi.org/blog/tech-and-outso … 0-workers/
1 in 5 Companies Replaced Laid Off U.S. Employees With Offshore Workers...
Key findings:
30% of companies with recent layoffs replaced laid off U.S. employees with offshore workers
24% of companies with recent layoffs plan to terminate and replace U.S. employees with offshore workers in 2025
Customer service, tech positions were most likely to be taken over by offshore workers
A quarter of companies that engaged in this practice replaced 50% or more of laid off U.S. employees...
https://www.resumebuilder.com/1-in-5-co … e-workers/
Big Tech Resumed Hiring Foreign Workers Just Weeks After Layoffs
New disclosures released yesterday show Google, Amazon, Facebook, and other firms requesting foreign worker H-1B visas this year....
https://www.leefang.com/p/big-tech-resu … gn-workers
Tech Employers Lay Off Workers, but Get New Rounds of H-1Bs...
Nope, shouldn't be allowed to happen.
https://cis.org/North/Tech-Employers-La … ounds-H1Bs
I don't think you're fully grasping the root cause of why some people are laid off—it's actually a different issue. Heads of companies like Apple and Google have explained that they lay off workers because some tech jobs have become obsolete. They’ve also been forced to hire from other countries due to a shortage of people with the expertise needed to meet the demands of newer technologies. Your argument feels one-sided and somewhat shallow, as it doesn't address the deeper problems of maintaining a staff capable of keeping up with fast-moving technology.
They’ve also stated that these workers are often paid more due to their expertise. I suppose you could accuse them of being dishonest, but I’m not willing to go that far or even question their motives.
Yes, as the chart shows we lag in STEM development. I am not sure this should be looked at as a good thing.
Companies do what is best for them.
When Disney replaced a majority of its American workers with H1B workers, and had those American employees train them for those jobs before they themselves were fired... there was no reason behind it but corporate economics.
Disney did it because it could... because replacing "white" "American" workers with foreign born workers was, and is, the politically correct thing to do... and it happens to save them money.
That's globalism for you.
That's the opposite of putting Americans first.
Here is an interesting take on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wtZyovABdA
Not saying I agree, but it does provide some info to chew on.
As for what Vivek said:
The tech entrepreneur wrote about how “top companies often hire foreign-born & first-generation engineers over ‘native’ Americans,” claiming the imbalance “isn’t because of an innate American IQ deficit (a lazy & wrong explanation)” but rather because of differences on the societal level.
“A key part of it comes down to the c-word: culture,” Ramaswamy continued, before telling readers, “Tough questions demand tough answers & if we’re really serious about fixing the problem, we have to confront the TRUTH.”
“American culture has venerated mediocrity over excellence for way too long, at least since the 90s and likely longer.”
“A culture that celebrates the prom queen over the math olympiad champ, or the jock over the valedictorian, will not produce the best engineers,”
“A culture that venerates Cory from ‘Boy Meets World,’ or Zach & Slater over Screech in ‘Saved by the Bell,’ or ‘Stefan’ over Steve Urkel in ‘Family Matters,’ will not produce the best engineers.”
In other words... it seems he was saying the exact same things I typed up above somewhere... just focusing on a different aspect as to the cause(s).
You’ve given me a lot to consider. Our laws require that under the H-1B program, employers must pay foreign workers at least the "prevailing wage" for their occupation in the region. However, evidence suggests that this is not always the case. In some high-profile instances, former American workers have filed lawsuits claiming they were forced to train their foreign replacements, who were paid less. A notable example is Disney’s 2015 case, where American workers alleged that they earned more than the H-1B workers who took over their roles, even though both groups were in similar positions.
In the case of Disney's 2015 lawsuit, the company ultimately settled with the plaintiffs, but there was no clear "winner" in the traditional sense. The American workers who were laid off and replaced by H-1B workers did not win a large monetary settlement, but the case drew significant public attention to the practice of replacing U.S. workers with foreign labor under the H-1B program. Disney and its contractors, such as the outsourcing firm that employed the H-1B workers, defended the practice as part of their restructuring, while critics argued that it was an attempt to replace higher-paid American workers with cheaper labor.
While there have been other lawsuits involving similar claims against companies like IBM and Southern California Edison, the outcomes often involve settlements, rather than full judicial rulings on the merits of the cases.
However, fewer students are pursuing degrees in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics) fields, though the trend can vary depending on the specific discipline and demographics. There has been a slight increase in the past few years.
The situation is a sticky one, I will admit. It would be obvious some companies would skirt the laws, as Disney clearly did. But can we judge all by one? Do we want Government intervention over and above the present laws that dictate employing H-1B workers?
Capitalism has worked overcoming pitfalls. As I see it some follow the rules, some don't, and some try to hire Americans, and find a short line of applicants. I am not willing to put anyone in one group.
The problem comes when the government... our elected representatives that are supposed to represent and advocate on our behalf... instead cater to the needs of corporations and foreign interests.
This is where we are now... with foreign and corporate interests almost in complete control of our government and its myriad of various agencies.
Compounded by an education system that focuses almost 100% on societal breakdown and restructuring... or as Kamala would say... "so we can build a future unburdened by what has been".
Hence my reference to feminism... because ultimately everything championed in the depths of that movement relates to the destruction of society and culture... family, man of the household, be-a-man, everything Western society has been based upon, must be undone.
Problem is... we have gotten to creating a society where no one knows what they are, as that can change from moment to moment, or what their role is in society... man today... woman tomorrow... do those things even exist... or are they mere constructs of society stuck in the past.
If there is no church, no higher authority, then why does it matter if you rape a 3 year old? Why does it matter if you kill a innocent person just to harvest their organs? There are no morals, no standards, no concrete reality we are all subject to live by.
Ken, I agree with the concerns raised about the government catering more to corporations and foreign interests than to the citizens it is supposed to represent. It’s deeply troubling to see how these powerful entities influence policies and decisions, often leaving the average person feeling unheard and undervalued. However, I think we also need to recognize the complexity of these issues. For instance, while the government’s focus on corporate and foreign interests is a problem, it’s often tied to economic dependencies and global realities that aren’t easily untangled—or perhaps, more accurately, are easily entangled due to agreements like NAFTA that we, as a nation, bought into without fully realizing the pitfalls.
I share your frustration with the education system's current direction.
The shifting societal norms around identity and roles are undeniably disorienting for many, and I agree that clarity about roles and responsibilities is essential for a stable culture. Still, I think the focus should be on fostering understanding and respect for individual choices without losing sight of the shared values that can hold society together. It’s a challenging balance, but one we have to strive for rather than seeing it as an inevitable breakdown of all we’ve built.
NAFTA came along (passed by Clinton) and the people that were pushing for it knew what it would mean... loss of American worker jobs, a direct attack on the American system, the American Dream.
Ultimately the push toward 'globalization' or a 'New World Order' or whatever other agenda or acronym you want to put in its place... worked towards by the UN as an extension of US NeoCon global goals.
From the CIA to the National Democratic Institute, to a slew of Nonprofits and NGOs... the effort does not even appear to originate from our government, but more often than not is funded by it... with some rogue players like Soros using their billions to advocate for the changes he believes in.
When one delves into how NGOs and even Universities (see link) work to weave change... it becomes clear you are correct to call the issue "entangled".
https://diamond-democracy.stanford.edu/ … anizations
... Its important to understand that a 'Global government' or even a split between two competing systems of global governance in which ALL countries, in order to survive, must join one or the other... as we may see between the SWIFT/West and the BRICS/East... such a system means that America the Nation... and by extension the rights, freedoms and liberties promised in our Constitution... must be subordinated to the higher "global" authority.
No, actually if you look at the investigations that have been done it's quite evident that American workers were laid off and they were really almost immediately replaced with workers from India.
The issue is multi-faceted and not just about people from India taking jobs. I would assume they are meeting the requirements for the positions and adhering to our legal standards. If they weren't performing the jobs they were hired for, they would be replaced. The bigger picture involves deeper challenges, such as the shortage of people entering STEM careers and the disturbing fact that, as a nation, we are falling behind in technology.
I understand your point and have come across similar claims. However, I believe it’s unfair to generalize and put everyone in the same category.
How Big Is the STEM labor market?
Maybe not as big as you might think. According to data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, STEM jobs are but a small sliver (6.2 percent) of the overall U.S. workforce—10.3 million out of 164.4 million jobs.
Are Enough Students Earning STEM Degrees?
Looks like it. If the Labor Bureau’s projections are to be believed, there will be, on average, about 111,000 new openings for engineering jobs each year in the coming decade (2023). Yet each year, American colleges and universities crank out nearly twice that number of engineering diplomas.
https://ascd.org/el/articles/is-the-ste … -overhyped
Fun fact: The bipartisan bill that Elon Musk killed before Christmas would have used H-1B guest worker fees paid by large tech corporations to create 100,000 apprenticeships for young Americans and job training opportunities for dislocated U.S workers.
Americans will do well to recognize how much of an existential threat to democracy tech bros and their piles of cash really are. That they are also a threat to jobs is just icing on their greedy, sleazy, poorly regulated cake.
Just my opinion!
Our current law covers your concern --- The American Competitiveness and Workforce Improvement Act (ACWIA) of 1998 was passed on October 21, 1998. This law introduced several key requirements for employers hiring H-1B workers, including the payment of a fee to fund training programs for U.S. workers. Specifically, it required employers to pay a $1,500 fee (or $750 for smaller employers with fewer than 25 employees) to support programs aimed at improving U.S. workforce skills.
Here are the laws that can help provide a clearer understanding of the facts surrounding the H-1B visa program. Familiarizing oneself with the laws that companies must follow allows for a more unbiased, fair, and factual debate on the issue.
The H-1B visa program is governed by several U.S. laws and regulations that companies must follow to ensure compliance. These include:
Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) - Section 101(a)(15)(H)(i)(B)
This section of the INA establishes the H-1B visa category and outlines the eligibility requirements for foreign workers in specialty occupations. It specifies that the individual must have at least a bachelor's degree or its equivalent in a specific field and that the job must require such a degree.
American Competitiveness and Workforce Improvement Act (ACWIA) of 1998
ACWIA introduced key requirements for employers, including:
Payment of a $1,500 fee (or $750 for smaller employers) to fund training programs for U.S. workers.
The requirement to maintain a Public Access File, which includes documentation that the company is complying with the terms of the visa and labor conditions.
Labor Condition Application (LCA) Requirements
Before filing an H-1B petition, an employer must submit an LCA to the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL). The LCA confirms that the employer will:
Pay the prevailing wage for the position in the geographic area.
Provide working conditions that will not negatively affect other workers.
Ensure that no displacement of U.S. workers occurs by hiring an H-1B worker.
Prevailing Wage Requirement
Employers must pay H-1B workers at least the prevailing wage for the job in the area of employment, or the actual wage paid to other employees in similar positions, whichever is higher.
No Displacement of U.S. Workers ---- Employers must attest that hiring an H-1B worker will not displace a U.S. worker in a similar job. If a U.S. worker is displaced, the employer must make a good-faith effort to resolve the issue.
Nonimmigrant Intent
The H-1B visa is a nonimmigrant visa, meaning the worker must intend to return to their home country after their employment ends. However, workers on H-1B visas may apply for a change of status to permanent residency (green card) if they meet specific criteria.
Duration of Stay and Extensions
H-1B visas are typically granted for an initial period of up to three years and can be extended up to a total of six years. After six years, the worker must leave the U.S. for at least one year before reapplying for a new H-1B visa.
H-1B Cap
There is a cap of 65,000 H-1B visas available each fiscal year, with an additional 20,000 visas available for workers with advanced degrees from U.S. institutions. However, some employers (e.g., universities, and nonprofit research organizations) are exempt from the cap.
Portability Rules
H-1B visa holders can change employers, but the new employer must file a petition on their behalf. The worker can begin employment with the new employer as soon as the petition is filed, not when it is approved.
Compliance and Audits
Employers are subject to audits and investigations by the U.S. Department of Labor or U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) to ensure compliance with the H-1B program rules. Violations of the program can result in fines, penalties, and even disqualification from participating in the H-1B program in the future.
These laws and regulations aim to ensure that companies comply with fair labor practices and that the H-1B visa program benefits both U.S. workers and foreign talent entering the country.
What happened to the America First agenda? Musk says we need more foreign workers on visa, disparages Americans intelligence and folks are ok with that? Last I checked, no one asked the tech bros to develop an immigration policy...
Regarding Trump's America First policy, I would find it ridiculous if he insisted that STEM jobs must be filled exclusively by Americans when we simply don't have enough people to fill those roles. A few weeks ago, you argued that we need migrants to fill labor-intensive jobs because Americans won't take them, and that using migrants is necessary to prevent our economy from failing. One could argue that if we can't fill STEM jobs, our nation's economy will not only suffer financially but also fall behind in technological advancements. Your stance on migrant workers could be seen as discriminatory. You support filling low-wage jobs because you feel Americans won’t take them and believe we need migrants to keep our economy strong, yet you think STEM jobs should only be filled by Americans, even though it's been proven that there aren’t enough workers to fill those positions. If we don’t fill STEM jobs, our economy will suffer. At best, your analogy seems a bit strange
Have a quick look at Tim's post. And do the math. We are not meeting the number of STEM workers that are needed to fill STEM jobs. As of 2023, approximately 2.4 million STEM jobs in the United States remain unfilled, primarily due to a shortage of qualified candidates. This gap is expected to widen, with projections indicating that 3.5 million STEM-related jobs will need to be filled by 2025.
The shortage is attributed to factors such as insufficient STEM education and training programs, leading to a mismatch between the skills required by employers and those possessed by the available workforce.
Again the "tech bros" are citizens, who have as much right as you or me to express their views. They also come from a place of having great experience in running large companies which gives them the right to comment on the needs of needed STEM workers with knowledge of the issue.
That's my take. You have shared yours--- Clearly, time to agree to disagree. So, stepping away from this conversation.
Is there something intrinsically wrong with his statement? Do we not supply enough good workers at the level needed? While intelligence is not a factor (IMO), education certainly is, and we are not doing what we need to do in the education field. We need engineers and scientists, not counselors and protesters. As long as America does not produce the skills must we not go elsewhere?
Or should Musk not say that at all, pretending he is a liberal and sweep it all into the corner so it is hidden? The liberal ideology in producing CRT trained people, WOKE people and those trained in activism and protesting is not what we need (engineers are) - should we not bring that to light no matter how much liberals like the programs, and show these kinds of liberal programs for what they truly are? The ruination of America, that is.
New data show no STEM worker shortage...
As Howard University Professor Ron Hira has observed, “unsubstantiated claims that there is a significant shortage of STEM talent have been a running feature of STEM workforce policy discussions” for decades. As he suggests, the most straightforward way to test for a “shortage” is to report wage and benefits trends over time in the occupations of interest. After all, if demand is really outstripping supply, employers will pay even more compensation to recruit and retain scarce workers. So, what does the data show?
One of the best sources of data on worker compensation is the Employer Costs for Employee Compensation data produced by the BLS. Normally, the BLS does not publish ECEC data specifically for STEM workers. However, in response to a custom data request, the BLS provided the Center for Immigration Studies with trends in wages and benefits for STEM workers.
The bottom line is that STEM workers have experienced little to no growth in overall compensation. In the most recent years, compensation has actually fallen. It was 7.1% lower in 2023 than in 2019 before COVID.
If employers are desperate for more STEM workers, why have they been lowering the compensation offered?
If demand for STEM workers was outstripping supply, then wages and benefits would be rising rapidly as employers try desperately to hold on to scarce workers and recruit new ones. It is Economics 101.
The availability of workers with STEM degrees also suggests no “shortage.” ACS data indicate that in 2022, there were 5.4 million working-age people with a science degree not working in any STEM job; among technology degree holders, it was 1.6 million; for engineering, it was 3.7 million; and it was 825,000 in math. On its face, it appears America has enough STEM-trained people, but a large share cannot get jobs in their field.
There is certainly evidence that immigration is crowding out native-born Americans from STEM jobs.
https://cis.org/Oped/New-data-show-no-S … in%20math.
https://issues.org/stem-workforce-shortage-data-hira/
Back in 2012, “learn to code” was an optimistic mantra. Born from a viral marketing campaign for one of the earliest coding boot camps, it promised recession-burned career-changers a future-proof option. But that was when the future looked somewhat different.
Recent cohorts of aspiring software developers are now looking for jobs in a post-pandemic tech sector riven by rampant layoffs. The Coding Bootcamp subreddit, a community with 48,000-plus members, is teeming with recent posts from graduates who are struggling to find work. Prospects have gotten so dire that one of the leading boot camps, Launch Academy, recently paused enrollment, citing a lack of “concrete job opportunities.” The move wasn’t meant to send doomsday signals about the future of tech workers altogether, however, but merely to acknowledge the reality of the moment.
“We saw placement numbers and enrollment numbers as a leading indicator of what’s happening more broadly in the market right now,” Launch Academy cofounder and CEO Dan Pickett tells Fast Company.
What’s happening, in short, is that the supply for able coders has, for the first time, dramatically outpaced demand. So far, nearly 84,600 tech workers have lost their jobs in 2024—after nearly 263,000 tech workers lost theirs last year. Postings for software-development roles on the jobs site Indeed have dropped 30% from pre-pandemic levels, according to The Wall Street Journal. The arrival of ongoing layoffs collided with a surplus of fresh tech-world job seekers, and now boot camp and university graduates are competing with experienced engineers for entry-level jobs.
https://www.fastcompany.com/91131169/ju … emy-pauses
Tech Jobs Have Dried Up—and Aren’t Coming Back Soon
https://www.wsj.com/tech/tech-jobs-arti … cpSbSXFh8A
Proving that companies hire foreign workers in tech roles due to a shortage of qualified U.S. workers can be done through a combination of data sources, research studies, and legal documentation. Here’s how you can approach the issue, and check some facts.
1. Department of Labor (DOL) and H-1B Visa Data
Labor Condition Applications (LCAs): Companies applying for H-1B visas are required to submit LCAs, which indicate that the foreign worker will be paid a prevailing wage for the job. The application process includes a certification that there is no qualified U.S. worker available for the position. These LCAs are public and can be used to demonstrate that companies claim a lack of available U.S. workers for tech roles.
How to use it: By analyzing the OFLC’s H-1B Disclosure Data, you can see which companies are filing LCAs for tech positions. If these companies repeatedly claim a shortage of U.S. workers, it can serve as evidence that they are hiring H-1B workers due to the lack of qualified American candidates.
Source: DOL’s H-1B Data
2. Employer Testimonials and Public Statements
Employer Claims: Companies, especially in the tech sector, often make public statements or provide testimonials explaining their need for foreign workers due to a shortage of qualified U.S. candidates. These claims are frequently included in the documentation for the H-1B application process, where employers must prove that they have made efforts to recruit U.S. workers without success.
How to use it: Look for public statements from major tech employers (like Google, Microsoft, Amazon) about their reliance on foreign talent to fill positions, particularly when addressing labor shortages in specialized areas like artificial intelligence, cybersecurity, or cloud computing.
Example: Google CEO Sundar Pichai has stated in various interviews that the company seeks global talent for areas where the U.S. workforce lacks sufficient expertise.
3. U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) and Industry Reports
BLS Data: The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics tracks employment trends in various sectors, including technology. It regularly publishes reports on the demand for tech workers, the shortage of skilled professionals, and the growing need for specific roles like software engineers, data scientists, and cybersecurity experts.
How to use it: Refer to BLS data showing employment projections and growth in tech sectors, indicating a gap in qualified American workers. For example, the BLS Employment Projections report forecasts high demand for IT occupations, but also highlights challenges in finding qualified U.S. workers to fill these roles.
Source: BLS Occupational Outlook Handbook
4. Tech Industry Studies and Surveys
Industry Research Reports: Research organizations like CompTIA, TechAmerica, and The Information Technology Industry Council (ITI) often release studies that highlight skill shortages in the tech workforce. These reports may show that companies are struggling to fill specific tech roles domestically and are turning to foreign workers to meet demand.
How to use it: Reference specific reports, such as CompTIA’s Cyberstates report, which highlights tech job growth and skill shortages. Additionally, tech industry associations often cite the need for more workers in fields like cloud computing, data science, and AI.
Source: CompTIA Cyberstates Report
5. Congressional Research Service (CRS) Reports
CRS Analysis: CRS reports on the H-1B visa program often provide insight into the demand for skilled tech labor in the U.S. They analyze the role of foreign workers in filling gaps in the workforce, especially in specialized fields where there is insufficient domestic talent. CRS reports may also provide insights into the economic and policy factors that contribute to this shortage.
How to use it: Refer to CRS reports that discuss the overall role of H-1B workers in U.S. tech industries and how they fill specific labor gaps.
Source: CRS Reports on Immigration
6. Private Research Firms and Data Services
H1BData.info and MyVisaJobs: Websites like H1BData.info and MyVisaJobs provide detailed information on companies sponsoring H-1B visas, including the job titles and industries in which H-1B workers are employed. They also provide information on the demand for specific tech roles and the companies hiring for these positions.
How to use it: Search for tech companies hiring a high number of H-1B workers in roles like software engineering, cybersecurity, or cloud development. The sheer volume of H-1B petitions filed for these roles can serve as evidence of a shortage of U.S. workers in those fields.
Source: MyVisaJobs and H1BData.info
7. Job Market Data (LinkedIn, Indeed, and Glassdoor)
Job Listings and Employer Needs: Job listing sites like LinkedIn, Indeed, and Glassdoor provide data on the number of open tech positions in the U.S. These platforms often highlight the increasing demand for tech talent in fields like AI, cybersecurity, and data science.
How to use it: Search for job listings that indicate a lack of U.S. candidates for these positions. Many companies may explicitly note the difficulty in filling certain tech roles or the need for specialized skills that are not widely available in the U.S.
Sources: LinkedIn Jobs, Indeed, and Glassdoor
8. Testimonies from Tech Companies
Statements from Hiring Managers: When tech companies testify before Congress or participate in public forums, they often share information about the difficulties they face in hiring U.S. workers for specialized roles. These testimonies can be valuable in demonstrating the need for foreign workers due to a lack of available skilled U.S. candidates.
9. Academic and Labor Market Studies
Studies by Universities or Think Tanks: Universities and think tanks often conduct research on labor shortages and the role of foreign workers in the tech industry. These studies may provide quantitative and qualitative evidence that U.S. tech companies face challenges in filling positions with domestic workers, especially in emerging fields like AI, quantum computing, and data analytics.
To demonstrate that companies hire foreign workers due to a shortage of qualified American tech professionals, you can combine official data from sources like the Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, and USCIS with industry reports from CompTIA, TechAmerica, and private job market platforms. Additionally, testimony from employers and academic studies can further substantiate the claim that there is a genuine shortage of skilled U.S. tech workers, driving the demand for H-1B visa holders.
Bottom line? Companies do not need to show any sort of proof whatsoever that when they choose a foreign worker over an American worker they have done it out of "skill" or "lack of availability".
So far, nearly 84,600 tech workers have lost their jobs in 2024—after nearly 263,000 tech workers lost theirs last year. Postings for software-development roles on the jobs site Indeed have dropped 30% from pre-pandemic levels, according to The Wall Street Journal.
If a company needs a needle in a haystack such as a quantum physicist, okay. We are talking about low and mid level skilled jobs that are being filled by foreign workers. We are talking about coders, programmers, software developers and so on.
Say it ain't so....
Tesla replaces laid-off U.S. workers with foreigners using visas pushed by Musk:
Electrek reported on Monday that Tesla recently "ramped up its use of H-1B visas to replace U.S. workers it let go during a wave of layoffs earlier this year."
Current and former Tesla employees confirmed the car company's move in recent days, Electrek said. Tesla reportedly laid off at least 14% of its 120,000 workers in 2024.
Electrek also pointed out that Musk entered the U.S. on a student visa. Musk's brother later admitted that they were in the country illegally when their Zip2 startup company was launched.
https://electrek.co/2024/12/30/tesla-re … -increase/
https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/tesla … d/1193500/
the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) does not release private information about individual companies' hiring and firing records. The DOL collects and publishes aggregated employment data through agencies like the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). This data includes industry-level trends, unemployment rates, job openings, and workforce demographics but does not disclose specific details about private companies' employment decisions. I would appreciate it if you could provide a link to DOL that shows the document you shared in your source.
—I didn’t see a single quote or piece of evidence that could validate your links. I find articles like that to be nothing more than fodder for the gullible.
Oh there was one quote --- "The reason I'm in America along with so many critical people who built SpaceX, Tesla, and hundreds of other companies that made America strong is because of H1B. Take a big step back and **** YOURSELF in the face. I will go to war on this issue, the likes of which you cannot possibly comprehend." Elon Musk
Tesla internal data shows company has slashed at least 14% of workforce this year...
Did he decrease his use of the visas during that time? Or did they continue to flow?
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/21/tesla-h … shows.html
I have no idea who Musk laid off, factory workers as well Tech employees, or across-the-board workers.
I have not been able to access that information the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) does not release private information about individual companies' hiring and firing records. I believe or assume the article you offered gives information that CNBC can back up. You do realize the big three auto industries had huge layoffs too--- automakers in Michigan—General Motors (GM), Ford, and Stellantis—have implemented significant layoffs over the past few years, affecting thousands of workers across the state.
Yes, despite recent layoffs, Michigan's major automakers—General Motors (GM), Ford, and Stellantis—have been actively hiring for STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics) positions to support their transition to electric vehicles (EVs) and advanced automotive technologies.
And Yes, the major automakers in Michigan—General Motors (GM), Ford, and Stellantis—employ and hire H-1B visa workers, particularly in specialized STEM roles essential for advancing automotive technologies.
General Motors (GM):
H-1B Employment Data: Between fiscal years 2020 and 2022, GM filed 2,038 Labor Condition Applications (LCAs) for H-1B visas and 382 labor certifications for green cards, indicating a significant employment of foreign professionals in specialized roles.
Job Roles and Locations: The majority of these positions were based in Michigan, with roles such as Design Release Engineer, Software Engineer, and Controls Design Engineer being prominent.
Ford:
H-1B Employment Practices: While specific recent data is limited, Ford has historically employed H-1B workers in specialized engineering and technology roles. Discussions among employees suggest that the company has utilized H-1B visa holders for various positions.
Stellantis:
International Workforce Initiatives: Stellantis has engaged in international workforce strategies, such as inviting Chinese technicians to its plant in Sochaux, France, for specialized projects. This reflects the company's approach to leveraging global talent for specific technical needs.
These automakers' employment of H-1B workers underscores their commitment to acquiring specialized skills necessary for innovation in the automotive industry. However, it's important to note that the use of H-1B workers has been a topic of discussion among employees and industry observers, particularly concerning its impact on company culture and employment practices.
Musk has openly stated that he hires H-1B workers who possess the expertise he seeks, a practice fully permitted under U.S. immigration laws. While some may argue that he could prioritize hiring Americans for every position, it’s also fair to acknowledge that he has the right to hire individuals who meet the specific qualifications he requires, particularly when he cannot find an American candidate who fits the role. It’s unclear why this practice is viewed as problematic—he is abiding by the law and providing hundreds of thousands of jobs to Americans in the process.
It would seem the media has even dropped the story as a fizzled-out ploy that did not take hold. I have no problem with migrants who come in legally and work in all fields as needed. I support the laws requiring businesses to adhere to the same wages and benefits and attempts to hire Americans first. Whether all businesses fully comply with these laws is a question I cannot answer.
And the battle rages on...
Trump says he's not changed his mind on H-1B visas as debate rages within MAGA coalition.
"I didn't change my mind. I've always felt we have to have the most competent people in our country, and we need competent people," Trump said at Mar-a-Lago on Tuesday evening. "We need smart people coming into our country. We need a lot of people coming in. We're going to have jobs like we've never had before."
It really is incredible the power that Musk has over Trump. He has done a complete 180. Lying then or now??
During his 2016 presidential campaign, he promised to tackle the abuse of the program and pointed to allegations of companies forcing Americans to train their cheaper replacements.
"The H-1B program is neither high-skilled nor immigration: these are temporary foreign workers, imported from abroad, for the explicit purpose of substituting for American workers at lower pay. I remain totally committed to eliminating rampant, widespread H-1B abuse and ending outrageous practices such as those that occurred at Disney in Florida when Americans were forced to train their foreign replacements," he said in 2016.
"I will end forever the use of the H-1B as a cheap labor program, and institute an absolute requirement to hire American workers first for every visa and immigration program. No exceptions," he said.
He also said that his companies use the H-1B program "and I shouldn’t be allowed to use it."
WOW. thanks to Fox News for hanging him out to dry on this one..hilariously embarrassing. Musk has really taken hold. He got what he paid for ..
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- … -coalition
Some of Trump’s statements might reflect a clarification of his earlier positions rather than a complete reversal. I think supporting the H-1B program under stricter guidelines could align with his long-term goal of balancing immigration with the needs of the American labor market.
Trump is very much a man who understands the importance of adapting to change and keeping an open mind, especially regarding shifts in the economy. He recognizes that a strong and skilled workforce is essential for sustaining and growing our economy. In my view, this kind of mindset is positive for the growth of our nation.
Nitpicking what he did or said seven years ago seems odd, especially when the context and challenges of the time have evolved. It makes more sense to evaluate how his policies and positions adapt to current realities and how they contribute to the nation’s progress. Nothing stays stagnant, and one must keep up with the current, especially in the economy.
Trump promised to improve the economy---- one can't do that by cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. We have H-1b laws, that you seem to ignore.
The H-1B program itself does not currently mandate that employers hire an American first, but there are provisions designed to protect U.S. workers. For example:
Labor Condition Application (LCA): Employers are required to file an LCA with the Department of Labor, attesting that hiring an H-1B worker will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of similarly employed U.S. workers. They must also certify that no strike or lockout is occurring at the workplace.
H-1B Dependent Employers: Employers who are classified as H-1B dependent (those who employ a significant proportion of H-1B workers) must make additional attestations if they hire H-1B workers. They must demonstrate that they attempted to recruit U.S. workers first and that no qualified U.S. worker was willing or able to fill the position.
These measures aim to strike a balance between protecting U.S. workers and allowing businesses to hire skilled foreign workers when no qualified American workers are available.
I don't think Elon Musk much cares about what we might feel or think about him. Odd you would get pleasure out of any of this. Certainly, he most likely cares much about public opinion.
I feel it is probably most odd that anyone would believe that a visa lottery system brings in the brightest and the best...luck over most qualified. Makes no sense. So much for merit... The a large number of Visa holders simply having bachelor's degrees LOL
The H-1B lottery system was introduced as part of the Immigration Act of 1990, which still exists today --- signed into law by President George H.W. Bush. This legislation established the H-1B visa category for temporary workers in specialty occupations and set annual caps on the number of visas issued. Trump sure where you got your information from.
The lottery system became necessary due to the increasing demand for H-1B visas exceeding the annual cap. The U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) administers the lottery when more applications are received than the cap allows.
Trump has generally been critical of visa lottery systems, including the Diversity Visa Lottery program, which he has called a "disaster" in the past. This program grants green cards to people from underrepresented countries through a lottery system. Trump has repeatedly advocated for merit-based immigration instead, prioritizing skills and qualifications over random selection.
Regarding the H-1B visa program, which has ALWAYS used a lottery system when applications EXCEE the annual cap, Trump has not explicitly expressed support for the lottery itself. Instead, he and his administration proposed reforms to prioritize higher-paid or more skilled applicants rather than relying on random selection. For example, in 2020, the Trump administration introduced a rule to replace the H-1B lottery with a wage-based selection process, aligning with his preference for merit-based immigration.
2017---Trump calls for end to Diversity Visa Lottery
https://www.bal.com/perspectives/bal-ne … hatgpt.com
Jan 2021 --- Trump Increase Saleray Regulations on H-1B workershttps://www.wilmerhale.com/en/insights/client-alerts/20210113-trump-administration-increases-salary-requirements-for-h-1b-visa-holders
He has flip flopped as of late on the positions you've listed... He has aligned himself with the positions of Musk. It is a myth that these visas are bringing geniuses to our workforce. I don't think I would call an individual with a bachelor's degree "highly skilled". At anything... Depending of course on years of experience but these visas aren't bringing in that sort of person either. Seems to be heavily populated by "fresh outs"
He has not flip-flopped at all. Not sure what you refer to. I offered a lengthy post that shows he has not in any respect changed his position on the visa program. His actions while president as well as past and present comments have not changed in any respect. Yes, he has expressed Musk and he has the same views of what is needed now as well as when he was president. He has never expressed he was against the H-1b program. Only against the lotto system. He expressed he wants vetting of education and skills --- no lottery system. I have not heard him support the lottery system only the H-1b program as he did in his last presidency. Perhaps offer a quote from the present controversy.
This legislation established the H-1B visa category for temporary workers in specialty occupations and set annual caps on the number of visas issued. I shared the H-1B laws, in this thread regarding applicants' education skills and or experience meet the requirements of what they are hired for, and are vetted before being hired. The company pays a fee, per worker hired ---American Competitiveness and Workforce Improvement Act (ACWIA) Fee: This fee is meant to fund job training and educational programs to help American workers. It varies depending on the size of the employer. Not sure why you don't understand we have not filled STEM jobs due to not enough Americans are entering STEM fields. Stats offered by Tim on the very first page of this thread show that a very small portion are attending college to obtain STEM skills. You just don't have the facts on the full issue. I do understand media is misrepresenting the issue.
The lottery system became necessary due to the increasing demand for H-1B visas exceeding the annual cap. The U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) administers the lottery when more applications are received than the cap allows.
Trump has generally been critical of visa lottery systems, including the Diversity Visa Lottery program, which he has called a "disaster" in the past. This program grants green cards to people from underrepresented countries through a lottery system. Trump has repeatedly advocated for merit-based immigration instead, prioritizing skills and qualifications over random selection.
Regarding the H-1B visa program, which has ALWAYS used a lottery system when applications EXCEE the annual cap, Trump has not expressed support for the lottery itself. Instead, he and his administration proposed reforms to prioritize higher-paid or more skilled applicants rather than relying on random selection. For example, in 2020, the Trump administration introduced a rule to replace the H-1B lottery with a wage-based selection process, aligning with his preference for merit-based immigration. He has expressed he wants vetting over any form of lottery as we currently give and have had for decades.
2017---Trump calls for end to Diversity Visa Lottery
https://www.bal.com/perspectives/bal-ne … hatgpt.com
Jan 2021 --- Trump Increase Saleray Regulations on H-1B workershttps://www.wilmerhale.com/en/insights/client-alerts/20210113-trump-administration-increases-salary-requirements-for-h-1b-visa-holders
Regarding your view on the skills of these workers. I am more apt to believe business owners who say differently. I also have hopes our laws are being followed by immigration workers, who vet all H-1b workers and are chosen on education experience, and skills.
I am fully supportive of the H-1B program at this time. I hope at some point we can produce more Americans to fill the jobs and have no necessity for the program.
He has completely flip flopped...
Recently he has said...
"I didn't change my mind. I've always felt we have to have the most competent people in our country, and we need competent people," Trump said at Mar-a-Lago on Tuesday evening. "We need smart people coming into our country. We need a lot of people coming in. We're going to have jobs like we've never had before."
And in 2016 he has said...
During his 2016 presidential campaign, he promised to tackle the abuse of the program and pointed to allegations of companies forcing Americans to train their cheaper replacements.
"The H-1B program is neither high-skilled nor immigration: these are temporary foreign workers, imported from abroad, for the explicit purpose of substituting for American workers at lower pay. I remain totally committed to eliminating rampant, widespread H-1B abuse and ending outrageous practices such as those that occurred at Disney in Florida when Americans were forced to train their foreign replacements," he said in 2016.
"I will end forever the use of the H-1B as a cheap labor program, and institute an absolute requirement to hire American workers first for every visa and immigration program. No exceptions," he said.
He also said that his companies use the H-1B program "and shouldn’t be allowed to use it."
In an interview with the New York Post on Saturday, Trump praised the “great program,” describing himself as “a believer in H-1B.”. LOL
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- … -coalition
I hope at some point we can produce more Americans to fill the jobs and have no necessity for the program.
I'd rather see that corporations aren't allowed to lay off American workers and replace them with lower paid, captive foreign workers.
Let's concentrate on the subject you brought up ---Trump flip-flopping.
I'm not sure why you think Trump flip-flopped on the issue of the H-1B program from 2016 to today. He has always been against the lottery system, emphasizing the need to vet applicants thoroughly to ensure we’re bringing in the most qualified individuals. He hasn’t expressed any new or differing views on this matter. If you believe he has, I'd be interested to hear how you came to that conclusion, because I just don’t see it. Even if he had changed his stance, I still don’t see a significant problem with it. The need for foreign workers under the H-1B program isn’t static; it varies depending on the demand for specific skill sets in our economy. It’s essential for filling open job positions where there’s a shortage of qualified American workers. The program has been valuable in keeping our economy steady, as it allows businesses to hire the talent they need to remain competitive. It’s also helped fuel growth in many sectors like technology, healthcare, and engineering. So, I believe the H-1B program is beneficial, as long as it’s managed correctly, and it plays an important role in meeting our evolving labor market needs.
Trump previously opposed to the Visas all together, the lottery system was just one part of it that he was particularly against. Today he says the Visas are a great idea.
a 2016 primary debate, however, Trump called the H-1B visa program “very bad” and “unfair” for U.S. workers.
“First of all, I think and I know the H-1B very well. And it’s something that I frankly use and I shouldn’t be allowed to use it. We shouldn’t have it,” he said.
debate 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6ldIUdKNv4
He supports the idea that highly skilled workers from other nations are needed, and I’ve never heard him say otherwise. However, his comment during the 2016 debate, where he said, “I am changing,” suggests that he had already adjusted his view on the issue before that debate.
As president, he implemented changes to the H-1B visa program to ensure it wasn’t being abused and to align with the sentiment he expressed during the debate—that the program should prioritize the most skilled and highly educated applicants. After winning the 2016 election and taking office in 2017, Donald Trump took several actions to reform the program, fulfilling his campaign promise to protect American workers while still allowing access to exceptional talent from abroad.
In 2019, Trump's administration implemented several new measures to the program.
Proposed Changes to the Selection Process:--- Trump introduced changes to the lottery system used to allocate H-1B visas--- moving from a random selection to a system that gave preference to workers with higher salaries and advanced degrees. This was seen as a way to ensure that the program would benefit highly skilled workers and limit its use for lower-wage positions.
Increased Scrutiny of Employers: The administration increased scrutiny on companies that rely heavily on H-1B visas, particularly targeting those that were seen as outsourcing jobs to foreign workers, often at lower wages than U.S. counterparts.
Administrative Rules and Enforcement: The administration proposed and enforced stricter eligibility requirements for H-1B applicants, including more detailed documentation vetting, and employers to demonstrate that the position could not be filled by a U.S. worker.
This is much of what he supported during his campaign in 2020, and in 2024. I have not seen him move away from his views.
The media's claim that he has changed his view simply doesn't hold up when you look at the facts—his words speak for themselves. Thanks to the internet, I can easily find Trump expressing his views directly, allowing me to verify his stance through his own statements. Trump rarely changes his views, though I have seen him adapt his perspective on complicated issues. In my view, this is a complicated issue, not a stagnant one, and it depends on the needs of workers due to a shortage of American workers who can fill certain jobs. There’s also the need for migrant workers to fill unskilled jobs that many Americans have no interest in taking. To keep our economy on the right trajectory, workers are needed in both skilled and unskilled positions. If not well thought out and handled properly, it could deeply affect the economy.
I fully support his views on filling necessary jobs while adhering to our laws and hiring workers based on the current needs of our economy. If the demand decreases, I believe the cap for H-1B workers should be adjusted accordingly to reflect those changes.
"his words speak for themselves. Thanks to the internet"
https://x.com/Robert1Berg/status/1873444818636136516
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 … bused.html
Looks like Republican debate in March of 2016
When he was in the Senate, Marco Rubio sponsored immigration reform legislation that would have expanded the number of these visas that were available to companies from 85,000 to 180,000. The Florida senator, desperate to win his home state next week and already facing calls to drop out of the race, has stood by that proposal—and Trump attacked him for it—even as he disavowed most of the rest of that bill.
Interesting that he's not attacking Musk now...
Shar,
Tell me if I'm seeing this right.
The left is upset at the abuses of the H-1B visa programs because it takes the jobs of Americans. These are people from other countries who are here legally. They have jobs and pay their way.
The left is okay with millions of people illegally crossing our borders and taking American recourses for food, housing, education, medical care, etc. These are people who take from the system and do not pay into it. This leaves the American taxpayer with a huge financial burden.
Why does the left love illegal immigration that cost taxpayers millions of dollars and are angry at legal immigrants who earn a wage and pay into the system?
I find their views a bit confusing and contradictory.
No one supports illegal immigration. No one. It's a fact that we don't have the people to work agriculture, meatpacking and more. When a native born American wants a job at the slaughterhouse, they should get it first. More power to them. But It's also a fact that many a big corporations have been caught abusing the visa system. Bringing in lower paid foreign workers to replace laid off American workers....this is not ok.
And it really isn't just the "left" who are opposing Musk's view on the visas...it's the maga base....you know, the AMERICA FIRST. Folks.
Mike, Yes, it appears that some people are very concerned about the H-1B visa program. First of all, I find it odd that this program, which has been in place for decades, is suddenly a focal point of criticism. The H-1B program is governed by laws designed to ensure transparency and fairness. These laws mandate that American workers must be considered first for a job, and the migrant workers who apply must meet strict criteria, including education, skills, and experience. Employers sponsoring these workers are also required to pay them on par with American workers performing the same job and provide them with the same benefits. Additionally, employers pay significant fees to the government, which fund American STEM education programs and directly benefit citizens. I believe these regulations are well-structured to prevent misuse and strike a balance between supporting the domestic workforce and addressing gaps in critical industries.
What I find hypocritical is the outcry over this program when so little attention is given to the millions of undocumented migrants pouring into the country, many of whom lack skills and become a burden on our resources. This contrast is glaring, especially when the media seems intent on using the H-1B debate as a "look here, not there" tactic to distract from the chaos of Joe Biden’s administration in its final months. Let’s be honest—our nation needs skilled H-1B workers, especially in STEM fields, because we have thousands of unfilled STEM jobs.
On page one of Tim’s post, there was a pie chart that I found particularly insightful. It highlighted just how few Americans pursue STEM degrees. This is a long-standing problem that has put our nation at a disadvantage in technology and other STEM-related areas. It’s alarming and should be a wake-up call for all of us. Instead, some people are misdirecting their frustration at a program that is actually helping us avoid falling further behind.
What disgusts me is the willingness to attack a program like H-1B that is designed to address critical workforce shortages. While the United States remains a global leader in technological innovation, it’s no secret that other countries, such as China, South Korea, and Germany, are either matching or surpassing us in certain areas due to their targeted policies and investments. For example, China has made substantial strides in artificial intelligence and 5G technology, South Korea is a leader in semiconductor manufacturing, and Germany continues to excel in engineering and automotive innovation.
The list of countries making technological advancements is long, and we cannot afford to let misinformed criticism of programs like H-1B distract us from the real issue: the urgent need to invest in STEM education and workforce development here at home. Instead of tearing down what works, we should focus on addressing the root causes of our challenges and ensuring that the United States remains competitive on the global stage.
Back to the subject---Balancing Global Talent and Domestic Education: The H-1B Visa Debate.
As of 2024, precise data on the exact number of unfilled STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics) jobs is limited. However, several projections and reports highlight a significant skills gap in the STEM workforce:
Skills Gap Projections: The U.S. is expected to need approximately 3.5 million STEM jobs filled by 2025. However, due to a shortage of qualified candidates, up to 2 million of these positions may remain unfilled.
CODE WIZARDS HQ
Semiconductor Industry: The semiconductor sector anticipates a 33% increase in job openings by the end of the decade. Alarmingly, 58% of these positions could remain vacant due to the skills gap.
SCIENCE TECH ACTION
STEM Job Growth: STEM occupations are projected to grow by 10.8% between 2022 and 2032, a rate nearly four times faster than that of non-STEM jobs.
These projections underscore the ongoing and future challenges in meeting the demand for skilled STEM professionals in the U.S.
I believe we need to either change the current laws to make it easier to hire foreign workers or encourage more Americans to pursue education in STEM fields. Without this, it's clear we will fall further behind other nations. In my opinion, this will create a greater need for H-1B workers, not to cut, but to increase them, in order to keep our economy on the right track. Trump, in my view, is offering the most common-sense solutions that will help the country at this stage in our growth.
Have you noted the fact that projections for workers in these fields have been incorrect?
Megyn Kelly asked Trump in2016 about highly-skilled immigration...he said...
"The H-1B program is neither high-skilled nor immigration: these are temporary foreign workers, imported from abroad, for the explicit purpose of substituting for American workers at lower pay. I remain totally committed to eliminating rampant, widespread H-1B abuse and ending outrageous practices such as those that occurred at Disney in Florida when Americans were forced to train their foreign replacements. I will end forever the use of the H-1B as a cheap labor program, and institute an absolute requirement to hire American workers first for every visa and immigration program. No exceptions."
Sure looks like a flip flopper to me...LOL I'VE ALWAYS LIKED THE VISAS
You need to provide a link to a live interview or a direct quote to source such an accusation. I have offered a link to the Presidential primary that occurred in Aug of 2015 to confirm my view, I will also offer another link to the CNBC 2015 primary where Trump shared the same attitude regarding H-1B.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpCOloV3DZk&t=5878s
Trump currently can be quoted that proves he has the same thoughts on the program as he has shared in recent weeks.
Seem you're obsessed with this issue. Ya know what --- guess he can do whatever he pleases with the program, that an EO or help of Congress can push through. I predict he will do the exact right thing --- keep it, and maybe raise the cap due to the need for skilled workers. Hopefully, he has a look at the root of the issue, why we need so many STEM H-1B workers.
He made the statement during the Republican debate of 2016.
The statement is also included in this Fox News article...
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- … -coalition
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documen … tion-visas
I had a look at YouTube regarding the Miami debate ---You're right about Trump’s stance on the H-1B program during the 2016 debate in Miami, where he expressed concerns about it, suggesting it should be reformed or even done away with due to its potential negative effects on American workers.
But what impressed me was in the same debate, ( not regarding the visa program) his acknowledgment that one must be open to reevaluating issues because the world is always changing, and problems are fluent. I liked this form of mindset.
When he became president, he seemed to embrace that sentiment and showed flexibility in the H-1B program. Even though his initial position was to tighten the program or eliminate it, he ended up taking actions that reflected a shift in his view. Under his administration, the focus shifted to reforming the program rather than abolishing it entirely. Some of the changes included tightening the eligibility criteria, increasing scrutiny on employers, and prioritizing higher-paying jobs within the program. The criteria for eligibility became more merit-based, focusing not only on education and skills but also on experience, ensuring that only the most qualified candidates were selected. Trump also pushed for fair wages, ensuring that foreign workers were paid competitive wages, comparable to those paid to similarly skilled U.S. workers. His administration took steps to ensure that the H-1B program wasn’t used to undercut wages, requiring employers to demonstrate that the wages offered to foreign workers met or exceeded the prevailing wage for that occupation in the area. Trump also pushed for a more merit-based approach overall, which showed that he was willing to adjust his policies based on new realities.
This seems to be the same stance he holds today, as he continues to advocate for policies that protect American workers while ensuring that foreign talent is fairly compensated. I’m not sure why his views changed, but it's clear that he was willing to reassess his position as circumstances evolved. I appreciate his perspective and believe he will represent Americans well. I also value that he is realistic about our needs and understands when those needs change, taking action to protect our economy.
Something confusing and contradictory? Musk telling folks that college really isn't that important...
https://youtu.be/o1HiNtM3xfw?si=8dvTlMUGp_MbXL1V
I made it to 4:20 but had to stop. I was getting drunk on confirmation bias. ;-)
I think he makes a valid point. From my generation... college was a goal to strive for, not a 'given.' The big rage was MBAs. As I've watched over the years, the availability of new avenues to get there has made an opportunity to go to college almost a 'given.'
Also over those years, the range of specialty, or non-STEM majors has exploded. There are stories of MBA holders flipping burgers and esoteric archeology specialty majors serving tables at Applebees.
And still, there's a constant complaint that we're not graduating enough STEM degrees.
I agree with Musk, times have changed. A formal college degree isn't for everyone now. *shrug*
Note that he also emphasizes the need for learning. He just doesn't think college is the only way (or the best way) to do it.
So what is confusing or contradictory?
GA
I feel the contradiction currently is with the push to bring in college educated (seemingly primarily with just a bachelor's degree) from other countries (over 70% from India) because we supposedly aren't graduating enough stem majors here. But why not apprentice the brightest in the best of high school students, community college students? Certainly they are capable of the entry level tech jobs being filled with the visa program. I mean those who show aptitude. Makes sense and is congruent with Musk's theory that a degree isn't always needed.
Not sure what you mean. I worked a field (electrician) that uses the "apprenticeship" method of training. First year apprentices were used primarily as "mules" - beasts of burden that carried stuff all over the job site. They cleaned, swept the floor and put stuff away. They were paid little over minimum wage; fast food workers often made more. I have a hard time seeing the brightest of the high school doing that.
In addition, I have a hard time seeing a high school student capable of an "entry level tech job" that requires a college education to do. We got high school grads that couldn't read a tape measure, couldn't add 1/2 and 3/4 or multiply 2X1.4. Hardly the brightest of the high school, but then we didn't pay for that either; the whole apprenticeship idea is based on the concept of very low wages for a few years. Wages that will NOT support a family and thus an anathema for the liberal crowd.
Half of a bachelor's degree is random gen. ed. credits. Much of that could be slashed. A future coder, programmer, analyst doesn't need English literature. I'd like to see specialized programs developed with a classroom component and then on the job skills training with corporate partners. These entry level jobs aren't brain surgery. We already have kids in middle school learning these skills.
Disagree. HIGHLY disagree. Anyone that has earned a degree understands that the ability to learn is the biggest thing to come out of secondary education - that a wide education is always valuable.
What you are talking about is a trade school methodology teaching white collar (meaning engineering, scientist, etc.) knowledge.
Don't think you will find very many engineering "entry level" jobs that don't require a complete college degree...and for good reason.
Well you let me know when a coder or programmer feels like their gen ed courses they were forced to take for a bachelor's degree contribute to their daily performance... Maybe nice or interesting to have but certainly not necessary. Expensive too. The four year degree boils down to essentially 2 years in a specialty when you take away the array of absolutely random classes.
I disagree with the idea that entry level tech jobs equate to "scientist" level knowledge. In fact, AI will eventually engulf these positions.
The skills of a coder or programmer are far from simple. These professionals need to constantly stay updated with ever-changing technology and tools. The tech industry evolves at a rapid pace, with new programming languages, frameworks, and methodologies emerging regularly. To remain effective in their roles, coders and programmers must continuously learn and adapt to these advancements. This requires not only understanding the latest technical developments but also applying them in practical ways to solve real-world problems. Just like in many other fields, the ability to evolve with technology is essential for staying competitive and capable in a job that demands constant innovation and problem-solving. Again, you don't seem to understand the complexity of what you are sharing.
But your post isn't addressing the point of mine.
And how do the extra years of gen ed requirements attached to a bachelor's degree contribute to any of what you've mentioned?
"This requires not only understanding the latest technical developments but also applying them in practical ways to solve real-world problems".
Does sociology 101 get me there?
I also hope everyone realizes there are programming and coding camps of various levels for children and teens...
Everyone I know with at least a bachelor's degree (including one highly successful programmer) agrees that there is far more to a college degree than the specific specialty that is sought; that the other classes can add enormously.
Of course, if you take underwater basketweaving 101, protesting 102 or Transgender Studies 101 you aren't going to get much from them. Although I DID find my PE classes to be of great value for years to come.
Have you a BS or higher? Do you not find the English classes, the Biology classes or perhaps Geology 101 to have added to your ability to communicate or just perhaps think rationally?
Well that certainly used to be the case... Which is why higher education used to be so valued.
I think higher learning has diverged from being better rounded and given the tools and information with which to think rationally.
To more of a... Indoctrination mixed with learning how to interpret the world based on, well, feelings over facts...
Maybe this clip can express it better... Consider the woman to be kind of a representative of today's college grad and the guy represents what a grad from 1980 would be like.
https://youtube.com/shorts/oldD8K8_o44? … Fbu6s-YyaN
As to the youtube I have criticism, criticism, and criticism, accolades, and a new curiosity to play with. Thanks.
I agree with you...up to the point that one is attending a university such as MIT. I like to think there still ARE universities and colleges that teach truth, reality and fact rather than fantasy, and assume those institutions will be centered in the STEM field (I'm biased, having never studied the soft subjects beyond what was necessary for a degree in chemistry).
Your link is spot on, agreeing with my bias on how people today think and rationalize. Far too many just make up stories that they decide is how the world works, meaning physical properties of the universe, not social interactions.
I figured the H-1B 'controversy was the connection in your comment. I don't think the connection is there. Musk has repeatedly made statements that he seeks talents, not degrees.
Conceptually, I agree with Musk's view of the program's need and benefit. Whether it is being abused or not, and whether Musk is abusing it is a partisan argument. It might be a valid one, or not. *shrug* My perception of Musk earns him the benefit of the doubt (since none of us know, do we?).
With that perspective, I don't see anything confusing or contradictory in his statement.
GA
Very interesting.
https://x.com/LauraLoomer/status/1872396020224561279
H1B salary data is public.
A quick scroll through will show you that the H1B program has nothing to do with "talent."
They are cheap and can't leave their jobs.
All these jobs should go to Americans.
Saw an associate qa engineer for 88k in the list. Anybody that claims they can't find an American in the country to do that job is a liar or not to smart. You can't scroll LinkedIn without seeing someone desperate for work that can't get a recruiter to respond
Here he goes again...
https://x.com/sararen21/status/1873148558586855866
But now he thinks the visas are just great.
I would strongly dislike having a president who wouldn't adapt to what's necessary for our economy or any issue that could affect our nation's well-being. Do you think a president should remain stagnant, unwilling to recognize a problem or a brewing issue and change course to fix or avoid it? Do you hope to have a president who stops learning and adjusting their views as issues change rapidly in today's world?
I noted the fact that Harris flip-flopped on major issues did not bother you. Can you see the hypocrisy?
He changed his view when Musk, once again, spoke out, spoke out of turn and Trump most likely felt they should present a united front and simply said he supports Musk's position. Musk put 230 million into Trump...I think we will see Trump agreeing with pretty much everything he says
As I mentioned, we'll have to wait and see if Trump makes any changes to the program. While Musk did contribute to Trump's campaign, it's worth noting that many affluent businesspeople supported Biden's campaign in 2020. Here are some notable contributors:
Michael Bloomberg: Former New York City mayor and founder of Bloomberg LP, Bloomberg donated over $100 million to support Biden's 2020 campaign.
REUTERS
George Soros: Investor and philanthropist, Soros contributed at least $500,000 to Biden's campaign in 2020.
WIKIPEDIA
Dustin Moskovitz: Co-founder of Facebook, Moskovitz donated $22 million to pro-Biden super PACs during the 2020 election cycle.
FINANCIAL TIMES
Reid Hoffman: LinkedIn co-founder, Hoffman contributed $16 million to support Biden's campaign in 2020.
FINANCIAL TIMES
Deven Parekh: Managing Director at Insight Partners, Parekh was a major fundraiser for Biden's 2020 campaign, raising at least $100,000.
WIKIPEDIA
James Murdoch: Son of media mogul Rupert Murdoch, James Murdoch and his wife Kathryn contributed over $2 million to Biden's campaign and aligned super PACs.
Herbert and Marion Sandler: Founders of Golden West Financial Corporation, the Sandlers donated $1.5 million to pro-Biden groups in 2020.
Laurene Powell Jobs: Founder of Emerson Collective and widow of Steve Jobs, she contributed $500,000 to Biden's campaign.
Donald Sussman: Sussman donated $9 million to pro-Biden super PACs during the 2020 election cycle.
Alexander Soros: Son of George Soros, Alexander has been an active donor and fundraiser for Democratic causes, including Biden's campaign.
Need more?
Musk has a good reputation for being generous, and stepping in when his services are needed. Musk donated 268,000 Tesla shares to unnamed charities just before the new year. According to a regulatory filing, this donation was valued at approximately $108 million, based on Tesla's closing stock price at the time.
This contribution continues Musk's pattern of making substantial year-end donations. In 2022, he donated Tesla shares worth $1.95 billion, and in 2021, he contributed approximately $5.74 billion to the Musk Foundation, his nonprofit organization.
It seems you might be either showing bias or unaware of the history behind wealthy individuals donating to political candidates. One might have the perspective, or assume these donations are made to protect or increase their business interests and wealth.
Giving almost 300 million dollars to one candidate is not charity, it is buying the office. There is not one individual that comes close in terms of giving to one single candidate. This is a clear example of everything that is wrong with our political system.
The charity blurb was all about Musks not needing money, and would not need to pay for play with any politician for favors. Just pointing out he does not need to donate to any politician. He has the world by the balls.
I note no mention of the fact Biden took historic campaign donations. Were they buying the office? I think some were. LOL and oh my they got the bad end of the bargain.
Who, as in one individual , donated almost $300 million to Biden?
Who comes close to Elon Musk's wealth? With a staggering net worth of approximately $432 billion as of January 2025, he stands as the richest person in the world. Musk's generosity is also evident in his consistent charitable contributions, aligning his actions with his values. His recent donation in support of Trump’s agenda further highlights his willingness to back causes he believes in.
In my view, Elon Musk is the type of businessman we should appreciate, and strive to keep in our Nation.
Estimated Impact If he folds up his tent and looks for better pastures.
While exact numbers depend on specific scenarios, estimates suggest the U.S. could lose tens of billions of dollars annually in direct and indirect tax revenue. For example:
Losing $11 billion annually from Musk’s personal taxes alone.
Billions more in corporate and payroll taxes if Tesla, SpaceX, and other companies relocated.
Economic ripple effects could multiply these losses further. Conclusion. The financial consequences of Musk moving his tax residency and businesses out of the U.S. would be profound, highlighting his significant role in the U.S. economy and tax base.
Maybe because he didn't want entry level workers? He needed skilled, experienced people? Maybe because they didn't want to move to where they were needed? Maybe because he closed the factory or the line they were on?
Maybe because there was an earthquake there.
Ask a silly question, intending that the asking itself says something that is not true because you don't want to be caught in another lie, and get stupid answers mixed in with real ones.
Or maybe he just wanted captive compliant workers? Software developers and engineers from our own country weren't good enough? I think a lot of us out here are tired of these folks trashing Americans. I find the excessive admiration of a businessman from South Africa very odd.
And in terms of jobs, one only needs to go as far as LinkedIn to see huge numbers of skilled Americans complaining that tech jobs aren't available... Musk shouldn't be able to replace American workers with those on visas. Not very "America first".
The "admiration" I'm seeing is for his accomplishments. Does it matter that he came from South Africa? Does that make his business accomplishments suspect?
GA
Perhaps he owns the business and has the right to run it as he sees fit, as long as he abides by the law. This is the American way: anyone can work hard, build a business, and establish their own rules. He’s the boss, and those who disagree are free to move on. From what I’ve seen, Musk hasn’t broken any laws.
What does where he was born have to do with anything? Musk is an American citizen. It amazes me how some people are all for migrant workers until they’re well-educated and can contribute their talents to benefit our country. This is such an upside-down thought process! Stats prove we need workers who offer STEM skills, as well as those who bring unskilled labor to the table. Both are essential for the economy to thrive.
"Software developers and engineers from our own country weren't good enough?"
That's what I said; were the developers and engineers (he did lay off at least one) were beginners with little knowledge of the process? You insinuate they had decades of experience and were top of the line, but you do it with zero knowledge if it is true. You also assume the replacements were no better trained, had no more experience or knowledge of the process, but again make the assumption with zero to back it up - you have zero information on the matter. Just assumptions.
Yes, I don't automatically assume that American tech workers musk laid off were somehow less skilled than the visa workers he brought in. Seems super anti American. Most H-1B visa holders are lower-paid labor, not top talent.
Of course you don't. What you DO assume is that the American techs laid off were as skilled (in the area needed) as what was hired to replace them.
One has as much reason as the other; zero. Neither assumption is reasonable without facts.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that the 70% brought in on visas from India are superior to the American worker. I find the assumption really just so distasteful. Seems almost hateful toward America to buy into this narrative.
And these people were obviously skilled enough to be hired in the first place... But then laid off by the thousands, summarily replaced by foreign Visa workers.
Advocates for American workers have long argued that the visa program has had a devastating impact on American workers. DHS under the Trump administration agreed that...
“a prevalence of relatively lower-paid and lower-skilled H–1B workers is detrimental to U.S. workers” and has resulted in “downward pressure on wages in industries and occupations with concentrations of relatively lower-paid H–1B workers”, and that “in some circumstances, U.S. employers are replacing qualified and skilled U.S. workers with relatively lower-skilled H–1B workers”.
The average starting salary for 2023 graduates of U.S. universities with master’s degrees in fields in Computer/Information Sciences was $114,144. The average new H-1B worker was paid 13 percent less.
Here is an instance I agree with Trump...you don't?
It is too bad that advocates would not advocate for people entering college to get degrees in STEM. But that would be advocating for the root of the problem, most advocates skip over root causes. Go figure
Liberal arts are just so much easier and non-stressful.
If we did not have workers here on H-1B visas we would be up sh--creek.
Again, quoting the Trump administration previously...
"U.S. employers are replacing qualified and skilled U.S. workers with relatively lower-skilled H–1B workers”.
Seems like he wasn't really convinced we needed to bring in all these folks. I'm not either.
First, visa workers are not paid less. If any visa worker feels they are being underpaid, they have the right to report it. In fact, visa workers are typically sought after for specific skills that employers have difficulty finding locally. Their wages are protected by law, and they negotiate their pay based on their experience and expertise. Additionally, the vetting process thoroughly checks an applicant to ensure they have the necessary skills and education for the job before they are hired.
I don’t care what Trump has said about this issue—our laws regarding H-1B workers are clear and well-documented. If he dislikes those laws, he should focus on trying to get Congress to change them. Based on recent reports, it seems he now supports the need for these workers, possibly influenced by big tech owners sharing their own experiences and emphasizing the importance of these workers.
My son owns a tech company and has faced all the challenges of finding and keeping American workers, or workers with the experience of some he has hired from the EU. He goes above and beyond to hire Americans, but often, those he hires don’t work out well due to what he describes as poor work ethics. International Remote Work is part of his model, where he works with teams residing in other countries without being tied to a specific office. Sadly, most of his contracts are in Europe, given their strong interest in staying current and growing in technology.
Trump has recently expressed support for the H-1B visa program, stating, "I have many H-1B visas on my properties... It's a great program." Donald Trump ABC News
This statement aligns with his previous remarks during his 2016 presidential campaign, where he acknowledged the importance of the H-1B visa program for certain industries, particularly technology, in meeting workforce needs.
However, his stance has flip-flopped at times, especially when addressing concerns about foreign workers displacing American employees.
You evidence the further split of maga. We have those who hold to maga versus the newly formed faction... musk Republicans. To label Americans as having poor work ethic is pretty sad.
I’ve always argued that there are different factions within MAGA. The Republican Party has always been split to some extent. However, it’s normal to see factions within the Republican Party, whereas the Democratic Party tends to stick more closely to a unified stance. Republicans and conservatives have never been of one mind or one group. We are known for challenging what we see as harmful and promoting our conservative values.
Elon Musk has the right to express his views, and I take his experience running several businesses into consideration. Similarly, my own son, with 25 years of experience running a large business, has noted that some Americans don’t share the same work ethic as foreign workers. I’m a layman, and I rely on common sense when thinking about this issue. There's no reason to hire visa workers over Americans, yet many businesses find it necessary. I don’t have a problem with that; we have solid laws and regulations in place to ensure American companies are doing the right thing. Yes, I understand this program can be abused, as with Disney, but overall, we need both skilled and unskilled workers. I just want them to be properly vetted and able to do the jobs we need them for.
In the Tech industry it is well known---Overall, Musk's recruitment strategy combines a focus on practical experience, innovative assessment methods, and personal involvement to attract and retain top talent. He does not discriminate on where they come from. Which is his right as long as he follows the laws.
Our H-1B visa laws say differently the worker is protected against being paid less by our laws. I have offered you this information numerous times, hopefully, you will note it.
H-1B visa laws include several provisions to ensure that visa workers are not hired at lower wages than U.S. workers, protecting both American and foreign employees. These protections are primarily outlined in the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and enforced by the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL). Here are the key laws and requirements:
1. Prevailing Wage Requirement
What It Is: Employers must pay H-1B workers at least the prevailing wage for the position in the geographic location where they will be employed.
How It's Determined: The prevailing wage is based on data from the National Prevailing Wage Center or other legitimate wage surveys.
Purpose: This prevents employers from undercutting wages by paying foreign workers less than what is standard for the position.
2. Actual Wage Requirement
What It Is: Employers must pay H-1B workers the same or higher wages as other employees in similar positions within the company (the "actual wage").
Purpose: Ensures parity between H-1B employees and their American counterparts within the same company.
3. Labor Condition Application (LCA)
What It Is: Employers must file an LCA with the Department of Labor, attesting that:
The H-1B worker will be paid at least the prevailing wage.
Hiring the H-1B worker will not adversely affect the working conditions of U.S. workers.
Public Posting Requirement: Employers must post notices of the LCA at the worksite to inform current employees of the job and wages.
4. Anti-Displacement Protections
Employers cannot use H-1B workers to replace U.S. workers or lay off U.S. employees for the purpose of hiring H-1B workers, especially for "H-1B dependent employers" (those with 15% or more of their workforce on H-1B visas).
5. Non-Retaliation Protections
Employers cannot retaliate against H-1B workers for filing complaints or participating in investigations regarding wage or working condition violations.
6. Enforcement and Penalties
Investigations: The DOL can investigate complaints regarding H-1B wage violations.
Penalties: Employers found in violation may face fines, debarment from the H-1B program, and payment of back wages to underpaid workers.
These laws collectively aim to ensure that H-1B visa workers are treated fairly and that their hiring does not negatively impact U.S. workers' wages or employment opportunities.
There are many studies that show that the Visa holders are paid on average 10 to 15% less. Also, studies show that the people being brought in are generally under 30... Meaning fairly unskilled and inexperienced.
For H-1B petitions approved in 2023, the average salary that petitioning employers promised to pay new H-1B workers in computer-related occupations was $99,000. Pretty good, huh? Not so fast. In that same year, the average software developer’s salary was $132,270. The average new H-1B worker was paid 25.2 percent less.
The average starting salary for 2023 graduates of U.S. universities with master’s degrees in fields in Computer/Information Sciences was $114,144. The average new H-1B worker was paid 13 percent less.
How do the salaries of high-paid H-1B workers in computer-related occupations (compared to other H-1B workers in such occupations) compare with those of high-paid software developers (compared to all software developers)? In 2023, the 75th percentile of salaries for new H-1B workers was 25 percent less than the 75th percentile of salaries for software developers overall, and 40 percent less than the 90th percentile.
The results speak for themselves. When judged by salary level, H-1B workers in computer-related occupations cannot by and large hardly be called the best and the brightest. More accurate would be the cheap and the cheapest.
https://cis.org/Report/Elon-Musk-Right-about-H1Bs
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